SD forum/members' poor reputation ...???? What can we do about it ?

[roclement]

Yep! A lot of people don't get a forum like Simply...I used this comparsion recently with Bob when we were talking about golf clubs...buying your clubs at Modells versus having them custom fitted by a professional, is like buying discus from a LFS versus a sponsor here, you don't know any better untill you compare the two. People don't get our hobby like we do.

Rodrigo

[LizStreithorst]

I'm likelly one who they complain about. I'm more than happy to invest my time in someone wanting to learn. I don't like wasting my time on those who know it all already, or refuse to accept good advice from people who have been doing Discus for years.

[Keith Perkins]

"The mission of SimplyDiscus has remained the same since it opened. The purpose of the website is to educate, inform, and connect discus hobbyists worldwide in an effort to promote the hobby and strive for a better understanding of our fish. From newcomers to experienced breeders and long-time devotees, it is the goal of SimplyDiscus to provide a fun, family-oriented environment where discus lovers can share ideas, learn new tricks, ask questions, and enjoy their hobby. Ultimately, SimplyDiscus hopes to provide you with the knowledge and understanding to raise happy, healthy discus."

The above is just a reminder. I think the essence of Paul's post is that SD could be more respected than it is, and it seems to me that would only go to improve the odds of being able to educate and inform.

[tomcat33x]

As someone new to Simply and new to forums in general, I find Simply to be a great source of information. I have some prior experience with discus and having made huge mistakes along the way, I discovered this forum. Since joining, I have done a ton of reading on a vaiety of subjects. I have read some very constructive criticism and seen some less than receptive replys. I think some people just can't handle constuctive criticism even though thats what they came here for. I'm by no means an expert, that's why I come here. Please forgive my opinion in advance, I think the more expert breeder types on here can be a little blunt. Maybe its fatigue from answering the same questions over and over again. I agree with thier advice, but others may have a different goal in mind. Some folks just want some colorful fish to look at and discus are definately colorful. They don't want to do the 90% WC's every hour on the hour, day and night, for the rest of thier lives. Others are more hardcore, want to breed them and are willing to do 110% WC's every 15 minutes, 24/7! (I'm sarcastically overexaggerating). In all, I think people need to understand that the replys on here are just opinions and should be taken as such. As for the other forums, I just ignore them, but, if you are the proactive type, by all means engage the negative folks. Maybe if you are respectful and the other person is seen as the nasty one, you can convert good folks to SD. Being kind and polite to a mean person eventually drives them insane. This is my opinion, take it for what it is and thank you.....

[joanstone]

I am a member of numerous fish clubs/forums and frequent this site on a daily basis. I have kept fish for more than forty years (yikes). This site is a wealth of information and on the whole members are extremely
helpful and are genuinely on board with the mission statement as quoted above. Even though I frequent this forum, I rarely post and am hesitant to do so now. Based on the replies so far, I think that some members do understand where this negative perception is coming from and I applaud them for recognizing that. Some perhaps are missing it. I think that the thread like the current one concerning a member wanting culls is an
example of why some people may be turned off. I don't think that people who are asking for help and don't like what they hear is really the issue, I think it's more of a tone (if that can really be expressed online) and
sometimes unnecessary comments that aren't constructive and possibly completely off topic that lie at the heart of it. I think another issue might be a difference in goals. I think the prevalent goal for the core group of
members here is to attain and keep very high quality discus often for breeding. That is (in my opinion) an excellent goal. It is, however not every discus keepers goal. Many are quite happy with sub-perfect discus and
have no intention of breeding them. Both are legitimate goals. You could compare it to keeping purebred dogs. There are show dogs who are bred for the betterment of the breed and there are some who turn out to be
pet quality, perfectly suitable pets that aren't for breeding. I use this illustration not in reference to the "cull thread" but to point out a possible issue that the feeling that is projected here is sometimes that unless you're in this hobby for the former goal then your goal isn't "as good". (I get that by buying sub-perfect discus people may be perpetuating poor breeding practices, but that's another issue.) My point is that on occasion
discussions here come off as a bit superior sounding and sometimes degenerate rather quickly. Those are the threads that cause the negative perceptions and are counterproductive. When the site has threads that have to be locked due to this degeneration as one recently did, it doesn't do the perception of the club any good. I think CozyKeith has summed it up perfectly. If your post isn't falling in line with the above, then let it go.

[ZX10R]

I am sure no one pays attention but haven't you ever noticed sometimes people just pop up out of the wood work and say "I have been on here for awhile but have never posted much in fear of getting my head bit off". I think this site is great and when I fist came here like most people I had sick fish. I called Mike Beals and Kraig Koontz asking for help and they both took time to chat with me and turned me to this site. Then when I arived Al and Eddie helped me out a great deal not only with my fish but help me from freaking out over a entire tank of sick fish. Since then I have stayed aboard logging on almost every day to just read what is going on. I think most threads are very helpfull but I have also seen those threads were the newbie will ask a question not knowing then argue about the answers he gets. Then again I see in my opinion about a handful of people on here that are very aggresive I guess you can call it and attack anyone who come along asking what they call a stupid question. I agree with the statements above not everyone well most everyone is not looking for that show quality/breeding discus thing. I am not I just want healthy fish no matter what size or shape they are I don't have the money or the time to keep and breed show quality fish. I remember Eddie making a comment once which I agree with he said I quote "The average hobbiest will only grow there fish to 4.5"-5.5" it is the ones that are truly dedicated to feedings and WC that will have there fish reach the 6+ mark". I am sure the ones who have been here from the start get sick and tired of answering the same question over and over. But keep in mind people like me and yourself were once new and needed someone to take the time to help out just like Kraig, Mike, Al, and Eddie did for me. If I would of came on here being new and had someone jump all over me like I have seen happen numerous times then I would also stay off here and trash talk this site. I was lucky I came across some super nice people first before I ran into the few aggresive ones.

[Crockett]

I can say that before I joined this forum I didn’t know too much about Discus but found SD to be just what I was looking for and needed. I think that there is a wealth of great information and I have gotten some great advice from members in the past. I am very happy I came across this forum because I needed the bar to be raised in terms of the knowledge I had about Discus before joining. In terms of negative comments coming from seasoned members, I can’t say that I experienced that at all when I came aboard, (well maybe once or twice…lol) but like I said, I was looking for the bar to be raised so I could learn and that I have. I also think more newbies, well everyone for that matter, should keep in mind that it’s just fish we are discussing (beautiful fish, but still just fish). I am a family man first, and my Wife and young Children are my main focus. However, I do love keeping discus, but not so where I would ever get bent out of shape over negative Discus comments, but that’s just me. This forum is excellent, anyone keeping Discus couldn’t ask for more than is presently found here. It’s all about learning, sharing and getting better and that’s what I am getting from this forum which is just what I needed.

Crockett

[Ryan]

"The mission of SimplyDiscus has remained the same since it opened. The purpose of the website is to educate, inform, and connect discus hobbyists worldwide in an effort to promote the hobby and strive for a better understanding of our fish. From newcomers to experienced breeders and long-time devotees, it is the goal of SimplyDiscus to provide a fun, family-oriented environment where discus lovers can share ideas, learn new tricks, ask questions, and enjoy their hobby. Ultimately, SimplyDiscus hopes to provide you with the knowledge and understanding to raise happy, healthy discus."

The above is just a reminder. I think the essence of Paul's post is that SD could be more respected than it is, and it seems to me that would only go to improve the odds of being able to educate and inform.

Respected by who? Even before there was a SimplyDiscus, there was an attitude among other cichlid keepers and general aquaria folks that discus keepers were snobs. They're an expensive fish that require a more specialized care than run-of-the-mill LFS fish, so of course you're going to have niche discussion forums and clubs related to them, and some people feel that's too exclusionist or holier-than-thou. There isn't really much you can do to change their minds -- when you read about water changes, bare bottom tanks, glass wipe-downs, etc., you're going to have people that automatically think it's crazy and/or unnecessary. No matter how nicely you try and explain discus husbandry to people, there will always be a divide between those who are willing to put in the time and effort, and those who are dismissive and write off discus keepers as crazy/weird/snobbish.

IMO, the site should be judged based on the information it provides. If it weren't successful, I don't think we would have made it ten years. I would say that a large majority of the people here are friendly and informative. You will always have people in every forum who are matter-of-fact and just answer the questions. People will sometimes interpret that "tone" (if there is such a thing in text online) as cold or rude. As always, flaming is not allowed, and if it's a problem, people are free to PM a mod/admin or use the Report Post feature so that it can be reviewed.

I also find it interesting that places like MFK complain about the tone here, when I regularly see people get flamed for missteps there (one of my favorite threads is always "I have an oscar in a 55 gallon tank" -- stand back and watch the sparks fly).

[discuspaul]

Keith's last paragraph in his most recent post above has nailed what my objective was in starting this thread.
(reluctantly, I might add, but feeling it was needed for awareness' sake, if nothing else).

And ZX10R's secong last sentence echoes my feelings and illustrates the kind of occurence and result that I'm seeing raised on other forms.

I would not have posted this if most of the negatives I have read about sd were from those types who many here have referred to, i.e. persons who argue and are aggressive with good, sound sd advice, or who only like and take in what they want to hear, or don't listen to and take advice properly, and so on.

On the contrary, it appears to me that more than half of those negative postings seem to come from genuinely interested and committed aquarists wanting seriously to get into discus-keeping, but fail to get the kind of open and ready help they are looking for, in coming into our forum initially, usually by way of a referral.
They seem to get "tuned out and turned off", and give up on wanting to stay with us as a good, continuing and beneficial participating member over the long term.
That's what is concerning me.

[yim11]

I would not have posted this if most of the negatives I have read about sd were from those types who many here have referred to, i.e. persons who argue and are aggressive with good, sound sd advice, or who only like and take in what they want to hear, or don't listen to and take advice properly, and so on.

On the contrary, it appears to me that more than half of those negative postings seem to come from genuinely interested and committed aquarists wanting seriously to get into discus-keeping, but fail to get the kind of open and ready help they are looking for, in coming into our forum initially, usually by way of a referral.
They seem to get "tuned out and turned off", and give up on wanting to stay with us as a good, continuing and beneficial participating member over the long term.
That's what is concerning me.

Would it be possible to get links to these posts on other forums so we might be able to match them to their ID here and see exactly what happened in specific cases?

[LizStreithorst]

Thanks for the excellent reply, Ryan. We are NOT snobs as some seem to think. We are more than happy to offer guidance. Our fish simply require more dedication than most fish.

I'm kind, but I also have an agressive streak. I want to help people. But when they're hard headed or stupid I won't be bothered with them. They can do as they choose and their fish can live or die.

Sorry, not what y'all wanted to hear. Our forum is fine as it is. We are good. If others don't like it, it's their loss.

[roclement]

It would be a lot easier to help people if they did two things...one would be to use the search function and do some research before asking questions...the second would be to actually hear the advice given instead of waiting for someone to magically agree with them..."sure, don't change water, keep it a 74 degrees, and use gravel and in no time you will lots of baby discus swiming around"!

I find that people that criticize this forum in other forums are either people who lost their discus or they are culls, or they are very active in THAT forum and would like nothing more than someone to stay there instead of coming here and meeting all of us nice people!

Rodrigo

[discuspaul]

Would it be possible to get links to these posts on other forums so we might be able to match them to their ID here and see exactly what happened in specific cases?

I haven't taken specific note of any of these posts in the past, and I doubt whether I could find more than a couple even if I were to now do some heavy-duty searching.
As I said before though, I've probably read about 3 dozen or so over the past 2 years. On average, about one or two a month over the 5 forums I belong to, and a couple of others that I visit as a guest, which I do on almost a daily basis ( I generally read 100 or more posts per day) - so they're not that frequent. Nonetheless, there's been about 20 or so to date that appear to have come from serious, conscientious hobbyists, and that type seems to be growing. Seems to me that these are members that we lost, but could have kept - and how many more of these are there out there that have remained completely silent, and that we won't ever know about.

In future, I will definitely keep note of the specific details of these posts.

[Ryan]

We will have to agree to disagree on this matter then. If Al thinks there should be some change in the site to try and accommodate those people, I will let him decide that on his own. I just think you cannot please everyone all the time, and a couple of dozen people out of several thousand isn't that big of a deal to me. There are people who've hated Simply over the years because of its censorship, because of its policies on sponsors and selling fish, because of a bunch of different reasons. Inevitably you will have members who do not find this forum to be a good fit for them. We've seen this before over the years. Remember when mostly everyone on DAAH hated us and wanted to see us fail?

Maybe I am taking this too personally, but I feel like this is saying that somehow Simply isn't as good as it should be, and that makes me question why I've put in so many hundreds of hours of my personal time here since 2002.

[LizStreithorst]

This is your thread. You don't have links to the specific converstaions? Post links! Do a simple search! I will respond to these peple on their own forums.

Like Ryan, I take this personally.

We do well here. We do good. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a fight.