SD forum/members' poor reputation ...???? What can we do about it ?

[DiscusBR]

Hi everyone,

I would like to thank Paul for raising the issue. I am a beginner, returning to discus-keeping after 15-year interruption. I started reading SD in August 2010 and started my first tank in March this year. I am a big fan of the forum. However, I do see the tendency of being overly negative and impatient with some postings in the forum. I agree, for example, with April's observation that when newbies come on and show their first fish or tank people at SD tend to look down at their quality. It is not that we should not be critical. But when someone presents their fish we should be able to say more than "sorry, but your fish are stunted". And it is not only that. I have dozens of threads here and I always got excellent feedback, but I had one terrible experience (I will not give specifics and give names). In that case, my position was interpreted as ignoring advice. However, I felt that some people did not understand the specific dilemma I was trying to present. Advice was given without much effort to understand where my doubts were coming from. And I also felt that the way that the criticism was expressed was dismissive and impolite.

So I understand Paul's call not as a call to change this terrific site or how we go around giving advice. It is a call to be more careful with how we talk to those who come here asking for advice.

My two cents.

[roclement]

This is your thread. You don't have links to the specific converstaions? Post links! Do a simple search! I will respond to these peple on their own forums.

Like Ryan, I take this personally.

We do well here. We do good. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a fight.

yep!

[cjr8420]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...n-planted-tank
here is ex.of newbies having a good discussion on success with discus with lack of water changes in planted tank not common but possible then one guy comes in and instead of giving advice starts being a dick for no reason.turk has a couple of post i thought were very professional how it should be handled. but the other guy is the reason ppl wont stay on fourm and go elsewhere and bash it i dont know if this person did go but i wouldnt blame them.

[Ryan]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...n-planted-tank
here is ex.of newbies having a good discussion on success with discus with lack of water changes in planted tank not common but possible then one guy comes in and instead of giving advice starts being a dick for no reason.turk has a couple of post i thought were very professional how it should be handled. but the other guy is the reason ppl wont stay on fourm and go elsewhere and bash it i dont know if this person did go but i wouldnt blame them.

So the thread was pruned of the personal attacks that were being hurled back and forth, and then it was locked by Al. What else should be done? How do other large forums handle one person who has a negative comment? Do they ban them? I don't think so. Warnings from a mod/admin and a thread locking if things get too heated are the way I see it done on places like Monster Fish Keepers. If someone gets too many warnings, they are banned. This has been our site policy for a long time.

I guess I'm confused as to what we're supposed to do in order to address the issue. You cannot ban someone every time they have a dissenting opinion. You certainly can't ban people when they occasionally get their feathers ruffled and make a snide remark at another poster. If that were the case, no internet forum would have members. As many hits as we've taken over the years about our supposedly heavy-handed censorship here, this thread makes it sound like we need more of it, and I don't agree with that. You cannot make everyone post positive, friendly, warm messages all the time. And you cannot go around editing every thread just because people have disagreements. You can send warnings, edit out the flaming or personal attacks, and lock threads when they get too heated. That's what was done in the example you linked to.

Am I missing something here? What exactly is the solution? And if you change to make those people happy, will you in turn make other hobbyists unhappy? So then how do you keep everyone happy? In short: you don't, and you can't.

[Sean Buehrle]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...n-planted-tank
here is ex.of newbies having a good discussion on success with discus with lack of water changes in planted tank not common but possible then one guy comes in and instead of giving advice starts being a dick for no reason.turk has a couple of post i thought were very professional how it should be handled. but the other guy is the reason ppl wont stay on fourm and go elsewhere and bash it i dont know if this person did go but i wouldnt blame them.

Bologna
Did you read that entire thread? I'll be you didn't.
That person was being judgmental and a snob.
She came to the conclusion that waterchanges were not needed and took a Jab at people who do large waterchanges.
She said she couldn't believe we were so unfriendly towards nature and in another post accused people on this site of trying to discourage new discus keepers from trying to keep discus, by setting standards so high.
She started it and got what she had coming.
Al pmd me and asked that I not do it again, to let his mods take care of it.
And I told him I would follow his rules.

Maybe the way I acted was inappropriate but still , I'm not the type to sit here and let someone talk smack and tell lies.
If thats what a dick is then I suppose I am one. I'll wear that badge, no problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ericatdallas]

So I was curious to find these threads and did a broad search for SD on Google. I did find a lot of referrals, MANY MANY of them coming from Paul and other regulars here. I also found some other interesting threads (what I thought were interesting at least). I think it happens everywhere. I don't think it's a common theme in this board, but possibly a few people are "aggressive" and a few people are "overly sensitive". For the most part though, my biased and not very scientific analysis, SD does seem to be held in fair esteem (mostly neutral when they're referenced). I also found a TON of referrals from species specific sites or discussion about things other than Discus (i.e. to DIY section or general aquarium help).

Infact, Paul is like the virtual equivalent to a walking billboard for this site.

Example of what we're being criticized for being done there...?

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums...nia-Blackworm&
See Post #5

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/fo...k-set-up/page4

Example of people not knowing but arguing anyway?
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fi...-discus-2.html

Example of misconceptions
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums...-or-two-discus

Referrals by people I don't recognized (doesn't mean they're not regulars though or using a different name)
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/t...-over-q-78635/
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...mp-plants.html
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/fo...k-set-up/page1

Found one...
OKay, I found one, but I'm not sure if I want to start anything so if you want it, you might have to look for yourself. It's from someone I recognize...

[Keith Perkins]

...Maybe I am taking this too personally, but I feel like this is saying that somehow Simply isn't as good as it should be, and that makes me question why I've put in so many hundreds of hours of my personal time here since 2002.

Ryan - I think you are taking this too personally, but given your contribution to starting this forum I can certainly understand that. Paul's goal by starting this thread I'd guess was the same as your goal has always been over the years, to try to make the forum yet a little better...I know my chiming in certainly was. I guess after watching how this thread has gone today and hoping perhaps people might be a little more careful and civil on their own (which IMO is the only way it would really work, WAY too much work etc for mods) was just a pipe dream. Too bad.

[roclement]

For watever it's worth someone on that thread threw the first stone by afirming that discus keepers try to scare others away from the hobby...ignorance scares people away from the hobby.

Let's face it, we are not an aquarium hobby, we are a Discus hobby, we take things to extreme for our hobby, others take a more balanced approach since their hobby is aquarium keeping and the whole thing for them is more important than the one fish ( I know I am generalizing here so please let it be ), so the tank looks healthy and the fish look ok for them, they are happy, great! When you try to mix someone like that with someone whose hobby is the fish itself things may not very civil...what can you do?

I don't keep fish tanks, I keep fish, I keep discus and I know nothing of how to maintain a planted tank, I am by no means an aquarium expert but I am sure passionate about my discus! The same thing happens with reef tanks versus FOWLR tanks, or as mentioned, pets versus show quality dogs...this is not an aqurium forum, it's a discus forum where like minded people come for help and to meet other nuts like us!

So we have been here since 2002...very succesfully here and the community keeps growing...sure people come and go...most go...but some stay and those are the ones that become part of the family...if it wasn;t for this family, as disfunctional as it may be, without this forum there would be no place for this family to meet but...like any other family we may be tough on newcomers and skeptical about letting you in, once you are in it's for life!

Al, and everyone else involved here created the best meeting place for discus people around and it's his house, his rules...and I like the rules! Thanks for the great forum guys!

Rodrigo

[Discus-n00b]

I agree Rod. Great post. People are often way to nice on the general topic aquarium forums. "Oh nice tank!" "Great looking discus!" when really in reality they just don't want to hurt feelings by telling the truth. Or they say something they read in a book published 20 years ago and think they know everything there is to know about all aquarium species. That or they work at an LFS.

[H2Ochanger]

My two cents as a newcomer: this isn't a "cheerleading" site, like a few of those mentioned in the thread (I've spent some times on one of those sites because it actually has a decent crenicichla subforum). I visit here because I've found it to be the best source of good information about some demanding fish. That's what I've needed, so far. I haven't done lots of posting since most of my initial questions have been answered by searching the forum, or by Discus-n00b on our local forum.

I haven't seen behaviour that was much different than other forums. I think this thread is a good thing, if it makes us think about how our posts might sound to newcomers, but I hope it doesn't lead anyone to change the good content of the responses. That's what's really of value here.

[TURQ64]

Jeesh!..I can't believe I'm posting on this topic, but...I was not new to Discus, but new to this forum when I joined,so that makes me some kind of 'newbie'....when I first posted, I got treated like sh*t, with a few figuring I was a troll or somebody else. so what?..I'm not thin skinned, and realised right away that some were quick to defend their stance..my kind of people. Raising Discus isn't for thin skinned people anyhow...I try to be helpful..Sometimes I use too much tact, and don't exactly 'tell it like it is' to a poster..That's my version of 'nice'..Sometimes I'm blunt and opinionated, and pee a few folks off, but this sometimes if not always comes with truth...If a person pops in here timidly, and gets offended by our comments, then perhaps natural selection has occurred here as it does with the fish...I also feel a bit 'pigeon-holed' by this thread's inference, but as mentioned, I'm not thin skinned, so I guess if our shoe fits, we should wear it, not compromise the shoe itself....Gary

[retiredsailor]

* this may have been said already and i apologize if that is the case * i think part of the problem is that most people who come to this site are community-tank folks who want to add discus and don't like/realize what the answers are going to be. specifically, how detailed those answers will be towards the care of the discus. then the become overwhelmed by the very comprehensive and detailed information on this site for caring for discus. and then when the ask a question they expect a nice and polite answer, as opposed to, "check out xxxx." which is slightly impersonal. but as i've found through my own experience, normal people don't like to answer questions when the effort has been made to post they obvious questions and answers, and then therefore come out as brusque by telling them to look it up for themself. i hope that made sense. i haven't even finsihed my second cup of coffee and it is showing. (i'm a huge stickler for spelling but just don't care right now).

my two cents

ian

[Larry Bugg]

I wasn't going to post on this thread but oh well. Here are a few thoughts that have been experssed by others already.

1. Discus are expensive and worthy of special care.
2. We believe there is a right way and a wrong way based on experience.
3. We are vey passionate and that passion is expressed in out post.
4. We have indeed answered the same questions a thousand times before. (and need to continue to do so)
5. A lot of newbies ask questions but really don't want to hear the answers.
6. Because we are one fish specific it is easy to be specific with our answers vs generalities you will get on a community site.
7. We do hold discus to a high standard and aren't afraid to say so.

So what is the right way to respond? This has been a good discussion as far as I am concerned. Anytime we are made to fall back and consider how we respond to others isn't all bad. That said I don't think anything really needs to be changed here. We just need to remind ourselves that we were new once and respond accordingly. But I will ask again.............what is the right way to respond?

Example. I read a new post this morning from someone new that wants to breed discus and was asking to have 3 discus sexed. The discus were obviously too young to even venture a guess but it was very obvious they were stunted and of very low quality. This is someone that wants to learn to breed discus. Do you ignor the quality of the discus in the post? Do you point it out in a attempt to help educate them? They were looking for advice but not necessarily a critique of their fish. Is it the right thing to do to just ignor the quality issue? I don't think so but how do you go about it without hurting their feelings? Maybe you take it off line in a PM as some have suggested. I was very frustrated trying to decide how to best respond and reading this post over the weekend made me think more about it but I still can't answer the question. How should we respond? I think others who replied to that thread also danced around the issue maybe because of this thread.



8. We quite often have newbies passing out a lot of answers and that doesn't help. If I don't have personal experience to share then most of the time I will leave the answers to those that do. What I have read or heard from others may be distorted by the time it reaches me or may not completely fit the circumstances.

[atitagain]

I pretty new here and don’t think there is a better site around for gaining knowledge on discus. 25 years ago I kept discus and did well but a lot has changed. Whenever I’ve needed help someone has stepped up and guided me down the right path. I am also fairly computer literate so using the search function has been a huge help.

When I first joined I have to say that I was intimidated, most of the folks here are very knowledgeable and some have strong opinions. My wife and I don’t breed and wanted a couple display tanks. It seems like its almost frowned upon here and I cringe when I ask for help and use the questionnaire and post that I have gravel substrate. We just don’t like the look of BB tanks.

Just some thoughts:

The disease questionnaire is tough to find and when someone has a sick fish they panic. Most are looking for help from the vast knowledge base that is here. We should always post a link to the questionnaire when we ask people to fill it out.

Many needed to be guided down a path regarding quality of the water and the importance of testing.

Some do not have the monetary resources to buy a lot of gear and we should try to help them within their means. That being said if they don’t do a little homework before they buy discus we just may not be able to help. Learning before you jump into something should always be a first step.

Not everyone is good with computers, we should work within their skill level.

Some just want a nice display tank and we should always try to offer solutions based on their setup.

Take a look at post 30 in this thread. While this person probably didn’t take enough time to read or use the search function her first impression pushed her away.

http://www.angelfish.net/VBulletin/s...t=23032&page=2


Sometimes when someone is looking for help the contrasting opinions become overwhelming. You don’t know how to sift through a thread to get the help you need and walk away scratching you head even more confused. In all the time that I have spent on the site there are members that I know to key on when looking for information. Not everyone can do that and leave feeling frustrated.

I have met some great people here and several have educated me at an accelerated rate. I’m 51 years old and have learned to adjust to others personalities; some people are just too sensitive and walk away. The internet can be a lot like a mine field with the keyboard being the trigger. When a newbie comes to the site and someone gets a little off topic it turns folks off. Looking at someone’s post count before replying might help when we respond.

I hope I didn’t insult anyone. This is the best site I have found and the only site I registered on and check it multiple times a day for new posts. This place has given me so much information, and there are times when I just want to post Thank You after spending a couple hours reading but it would be way too random.

I apologize if I did insult even one person here because that is not my intention.

I can't express enough gratitude for all the help I received. You are a great group once you get to reading the posts; some people just never get that far.

[April]

I think alot of time new members feel intimidated a
So not knowing anyone and don't know how to break in. I know when I first went to one site years ago when o first started it helped me when a very nice friendly lady messages me and welcomed me. We became very close friends. I started reading her threads and then felt more a part of the forum.
I think that could be the main issue with alot of new members including the one Paul heard of recently. Have to give it time.


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