Kent Discus Essentials

[Lance]

Does anyone use this stuff?I was told by 1 breeder that Discus get their nutrician from food not water and it was a waist of money.

[ericatdallas]

I agree with the breeder you spoke with. Not that there isn't a place for additives/supplements (i.e. putting it in your BH), but the Kent Discus Essentials isn't very cost-effective.

Plus, I bet most of it goes out with the WC. Like human vitamins, it's probably not very bio-available either.

[Skip]

Snake oil..

[Sean Buehrle]

I think it's snake oil too.

I want to market a product that is guaranteed to work.

I'll give double money back in 1 year if desired results are not met.

Ingredient will be bohemian spring water.

Directions

Add 1 drop daily after a 100 % water change and watch your discus flourish, guaranteed to work.

[Discus Origins]

If you are going to use pure RO water, which some do for wilds such as Heckels, then you should add minerals back to the water.

There has already been a thread prior, I just cant recall it right now. But scientifically fish do not absorb nutrients thru their digestive tracts as mammals do. They do get a lot of their essential minerals thru the water/skin barrier so the concept is not incorrect. Its just unnecessary if you are using RO/tap mix as that adds back enough to the water already.

[Eddie]

If you are going to use pure RO water, which some do for wilds such as Heckels, then you should add minerals back to the water.

There has already been a thread prior, I just cant recall it right now. But scientifically fish do not absorb nutrients thru their digestive tracts as mammals do. They do get a lot of their essential minerals thru the water/skin barrier so the concept is not incorrect. Its just unnecessary if you are using RO/tap mix as that adds back enough to the water already.

Ditto on this

[Lance]

Thanks everyone. I don't use it, but bought it when I first switched from a Saltwater Reef tank over to a Discus tank. Was buying everything on the market that was recommended at the time. Just didn't want to toss 2- half gal. bottles out if the stuff did some good.

[ShinShin]

While it is true that ions are exchanged through the gills, I do not understand the statement that fish do not absorb nutrients through their digestive tracts. Please explain.

Mat

BYW Lance, do not waste your money on the DE.

[Discus Origins]

Mat,

The statement should be clarified that their digestive tracts are very simple compared to mammals and they do not absorb nutrients as efficiently. So fish have evolved a secondary system where the skin will uptake certain minerals such as calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, etc from the water instead of depending on food intake. That's as scientific as I'm gonna get without opening up a book....too lazy for that right now

[ShinShin]

My thought here though, Mark, is how do discus grow as large as they do in the wild in the mineral depleted water in which they evolved?

Mat

[illumnae]

I'm curious about this, as some fish like Heckels and other blackwater species (Altum angels, UFY etc) are found in waters where TDS is likely to be in the single digits - this means that the water is just about as pure as RO water (without DI). In such a case, how do the fish get their nutrients in the wild from the water which is more or less nutrient free?

edit: seems like Mat and I had the same question 3 minutes from each other

[Discus Origins]

I gotcha....well I'll give it a go, anyone with specific knowledge please step in. As I see it, the normal TDS in Amazon waters is under 20-30ppm. What makes up that TDS can be considered 'essential minerals', only what the fish need for proper development and nothing else. There are very rarely any silicates or phosphates found in those waters, which are what ruins our tap water in terms of TDS.

Discus also constantly eat during the day all year except for the dry season, they obtain food in a constant flow vs heavy feedings 3-4 times a day. So my hypothesis is that feeding all day, absorbing only the necessary minerals found in the water, and clean water combine to give discus best chance at growth rate. That is if the piranhas leave them alone! lol

[illumnae]

Sounds logical...my next question would be...what then constitutes the essential minerals (amounting to 20-30 TDS) that we should be adding back to our water, and how do we add it back?

This question is of particular significance to me as I have been keeping my Heckels (Rio Negro biotope tank) and Altums/UFY (Orinocco basin biotope tank) in pure RO water for up to a year with no significant detriment to the fish - in fact the fish seemed happier after I switched from tap to pure RO. That being said, I'm still having a problem keeping the TDS as low as I would like. Despite weekely 30-50% water changes with pure RO water, the TDS in the water still stays at ~40 and rises if I'm even slightly remiss in keeping up with the water changes. Is it nitrates and phosphates (from poo/fish food) causing this?

[Discus Origins]

It could be the bioload increasing TDS, or could be your product water. Only true 0 TDS can be achieved with RO/DI unit, so if there is only RO membrane there will still be 5-7ppm that gets thru even at brand new sometimes. Have you measured your product water with a calibrated TDS meter lately to see what it is?

As for what are essential, that I do not know for sure. I'm not endorsing any products but it seems that discus essentials and discus right both contain the same minerals. I guess it's possible they scientifically titrated out what is present in Amazonian water to figure it out?

[ShinShin]

Absorbing ions from the water via respiration is not the same a absorbing "nutrients' from food. While mammal and fish digestive sysyems differ, digestive systems from fish species to fish species differs as well. While some fish stomachs are just a bulge in the intestine, most aren't. Fish do digest food and extract nutrients from food quite well. The fish's liver also is involved in metabolizing broken down food and extracting nutients, meaning proteins, fats and carbohydrates, which is very different than chemical ions from the water. This would necessarily be so in the barren water discus live. Gills and skin do not differenciate good from bad ions either. Heavy metals ions are also absorbed by the gills (maybe skin. I am not sure just how much is passed through the skin anyway) and stored in tissue as well.

Mat