fin rot

[shoveltrash]

hi all - firstoff, I did a search here for "fin rot" & got this:

"The following words are either very common, too long, or too short and were not included in your search:
fin, rot"

so I decided to post. (after exhausting Google and SD, reading any/all disease info I could find on the subject)

ok........I ventured into Discus prior to joining this forum, and started off making major rookie mistakes (based on LFS advice), unbeknownst to me.
I'm now trying to do the best with what I have, so bear with me.

I have a 40g with 2 Discus and 3 AF.
AF grown from nickle size to adulthood (1 approx 7" fin to fin, other slightly smaller), in less than a year.
the Discus were added 3 months ago (LFS purchase), no quarantine.

up until Xmas, I had been using salt-softened water for this tank. I've read so much negative info on this that I changed to KCl softened water. the subject of bypassing my softener is a no-go btw - I've exhausted this on other threads (complicated logistics).

all fish have been eating like pigs, seemingly thriving. until just a day or so ago, I noticed the 1 AF and my 1 Discus not eating as much, and hiding more. today I noticed the signs of fin rot.
so now? what to do?

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE




Problem


1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started


fin rot. noticed today in 2 fish - 1 Angel, 1 Discus. both “low men” on pecking order totem pole. suspect stress due to bullying.

(other fish in tank are unaffected)






2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)




decrease in appetite, both fish hiding, frayed/whitish edges of tail fins.






3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.


none.






Tank/Water


4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish


40g, 1 year established tank. 3 AF , two 4-4.5” discus.



5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?
bare bottom
change water 85% every other day
aged water




6 Parameters and water source;


- temp _____84F


- ph _____ 8.3


- ammonia reading ____0


- nitrite reading ____0


- nitrate reading ____<.5


- well water ____Y


- municipal water ____N


7. Any new fish/plants added recently


no


8. OTHER INFO:
sponge filter (established)
Eheim cannister
recently removed my HOB filter

also.....I have recently lost 3 Guppies! they'd been fine, then started swimming at the top/floating around. I just figured they couldn't cope with the high temps (they were long-time tank residents, prior to the Discus). I still have 1, but she's failing too .


should I add an air stone????
salt?

I realize that the size of my tank and the mix of occupants is probably the root cause of the problem. but I'm going to have to deal with what I have for now.
my plan is to do another WC today, rearrange things to give more 'hiding places' to the 2 bullied fish, and wait to hear what you guys say..........
please don't blast me , just because I started off so ignorant & now am having to deal with the consequences.

(btw I have a Discus-only tank in the works. to do things RIGHT)

[TURQ64]

Large wc, and follow it up with more..Try daily for a few days, looking for improvement..If improving. continue with daily large wc's till gone..If not improving, one of the following
1) Acriflavin
2)Furan 2
3)Anti-Fluke
If you have it, a PP dip or bath first if the fish are still strong and swimming...

[jimg]

could be signs of stress and immune systems not up to par. could try 1tbs 10 gal. salt for a few days and watch for improvements

[shoveltrash]

daily large WCs - check! will do
salt - an easy thing to try.....

If not improving, one of the following
1) Acriflavin
2)Furan 2
3)Anti-Fluke
If you have it, a PP dip or bath first if the fish are still strong and swimming...

erm, I'm REALLY not "in the know" regarding these fish-drugs. are they antibiotics? I've read that fin rot can start as stress, then bacteria can set in.
lordy, you've given me more stuff to read up on! <head spinning> LOL

meantime I'll do large WCs as advised. and go buy some kosher salt.
(and try to nurse myself back to health.....'am recovering from a horrid case of the flu )

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE RESPONSES!

[TURQ64]

True 'fin rot' is a bacteria, Flavobacterium Columnare...stress increases their numbers...Some of the things listed are ati-bio, some are dyes, others are oxidizers...different functions each..One step at a time..first, a lot of clean water..I prefer 1 tbsp to 5g if I'm using salt for stress or healing, but to each his own..

[shoveltrash]

well I managed a 95% WC this am, right after my barn work.......then almost fainted . still not 100% over the flu. my wonderful SO has gone out for salt (& yes I've read that 5gal/1TBSP is the most common dosage).

however I must've spooked my poor Discus badly - they have never been afraid of me before! now they're hiding way in the back of the tank, at the bottom. won't even come out for fdbw (which they usually fight over).
<sigh>

this is the first time I've been back online, and still don't feel up to par. I'll research the other meds for now, and play 'wait & see' after using the salt.

oh the irony, getting rid of salt-softened water, only to ADD salt

[ShinShin]

Aeromonas and pseudomas are also known to cause fin and tail rot. As mentioned, stress is a major factor. Causes can include crowded conditions, malnutrition, improper temperature, dirty water. Infections can go beyond a water change fix. Formalin/malachite green one recommended treatment. Secondary infections can also appear. If you hold off on treatment, doing water changes only, methylene blue could be added to the water to prevent fungal infections from occurring. MB is absorbed by the dead tissue and fungus cannot grow. Fungus attacks dead tissue. Oxytetracycline and kanamycin are also antibiotics that are effective.

HTH,

Mat

BTW, what are AF's?

[shoveltrash]

AF = Angel Fish.

I know the *true* answer here. 40g is a tad crowded for 3 AF & 2 Discus. add to that it has a small footprint (high tank). the reality is that there is some bullying going on, and the 2 bullied fish are showing signs of stress - barely imperceptible, but I'm OCD & can see the tail fin changes.

a sub-optimal set up. funny, I spent hours talking with the LFS 'expert' about setting up my tank (adding the Discus, that I purchased there!). went with the recommendations, and then I found this forum. and realized my error, too late.
two sole Discus => bullying. two is not a good #.


I'm so exhausted right now that I don't have the *search* in me (just finished 24hr call/worked most of the night, AND still recovering from flu!)
what is the recommended dosage for methylene blue? and for formalin?
are there online sources for fish antibiotics????


Mat you are wonderful for replying, thank you.
I know that many here are 'purists' and probably don't post advice because the advice would be "move the fish/change the set up." I do have another tank (65g), but have fish on order for it (Discus-only tank). so not sure what to do . I may end up treating without resolving the underlying problem.

[shoveltrash]

quick 30sec vid of the tail fin in question: (it was impossible to get good still photos!)


.......am I being paranoid?


still continuing WCs, and salt (1TBSP per 5gal). they've perked up.
I'm unsure of dosing meds, so would rather not make a horrid mistake with it .

just wanting a few opinions......? anybody?

[Brokenrack]

Kind of hard to tell from the vid (being that close) But it looks like you have way too much current airation gonig on there. Again hard to tell but doesn't look to bad as far as I can tell. Are the plants real?

[brewmaster15]

Trish,
Looking at the movie, it doesn't look like fin rot to me...when you have fin rot, the fin is clearly eroded away, often having a distinct edge outlined...almost like an army is marching in from the margin of the fin.

What I see in the movie, looks like the outer margins of the fins are whitish, and fraying..it also looks like the pectoral fins are moving very fast.,,You may be dealing with a parasite in that tank,,If it were me, I would try Formalin+malachite Green (aka quick cure).

Hth,
al

[shoveltrash]

looks like the outer margins of the fins are whitish, and fraying

yes! so what I'm seeing isn't necessarily 'fin rot' (!?).
off to Google "quick cure"
thanks Al!!!!!!!!!!!

it looks like you have way too much current airation gonig on there

LOL, I had thrown in an extra air stone thinking "maybe more 02 will help". I've since removed it.

Are the plants real?

nope.

[ShinShin]

To answer your question that I missed about MB dosage. It is very nontoxic and you can dose it until the water is dark blue, but it will kill your biological filtration.

I would put a prefilter on that uptake tube I see in the video.

Mat

[shoveltrash]

I would put a prefilter on that uptake tube I see in the video.

why? to decrease the current?

good to know that the MB is nontoxic.....I've now dosed with QuickCure though, so we'll see. fingers crossed!

[shoveltrash]

ok, fyi I put a prefilter on the uptake tube .

I hope it's not premature to say, MY FISH ARE BETTER!!!!!
2 days/doses of Quick Cure, and all seems to have cleared up AND they are acting their normal sassy selves again. interesting, not as much bullying now (?). I think the affected fish were easy targets for aggression since they were not feeling well.

I had to do a massive WC today (about 95%), because of a small ammonia level increase - I'm guessing the QC knocked my biofilter out some . 'will have to keep my eye on this.

I'm just happy they are better.
THANK YOU AL!!!!!!! (((HUG)))