Frozen Blackworms and your Discus

[jimg]

I just don't want to see people scape-goating. I think we all agree that talking in circles isn't productive, but neither is slandering each others motives.

I agree, but....you gave your thought about hot water and I gave my opinion. I thought part of ruling out issues was to lay each side out and give pros and cons to the idea. not attacking your ideas at all

[jimg]

In your time at the treatment plant, did you take any data at point-of-use destinations? I.e. hot water coming out of the tap after going through pipes? If you guy did, that might worth considering.

Why don't you do the test and let us know. and at the plants they do calculate what the treatments will be when they get to your house.

[Wes]

Have been following this post since it started. A lot of good info. I started 2 new posts in the disease/ sickness and med form to try to capture all the info in one format, a modified DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE. This way we can collect the info and some one may see a pattern. ------------------SICK FISH http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ost.-SICK-FISH -------- HEALTHY FISH http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...for-comparison One for sick fish and one for your healthy fish. It would be good info for people with no sick fish to fill out the healthy fish thread for comparison. Please copy and paste the questionnaire adding your info. I guess bad idea. it got deleted out by a moderator

[Brokenrack]

There can be a diffrence in water in winter in northern states depending on source and ground temps. When water temps go down oxygen concentrations go up(other gasses as well like co2) higher oxygen concentrations lead to higher corrosion rates and higher levels of metals. I've looked it up before. It's also a reason to airiate/age your water (the desolved gasses that is).

[ericatdallas]

Why don't you do the test and let us know. and at the plants they do calculate what the treatments will be when they get to your house.

What good would that do if I'm claiming I see no problems? I was simply stating that I was offering a plausible altnerative 'goat' and that what you saw at a treatment facility was not necessarily representative of what the end user sees.

I agree, but....you gave your thought about hot water and I gave my opinion. I thought part of ruling out issues was to lay each side out and give pros and cons to the idea. not attacking your ideas at all

Okay, I thought you were dismissing my idea... I did take this time to look some interesting articles up. Apparently copper has been shown to create gastrointestinal problems in humans from kitchen faucet. I do see the utility of you providing a counter-perspective. So to do my part, let me add to that...

Hopefully the following doesn't detract too much or put us off-topic even more. My key takeaways from the below are examples of how certain metal concentrations (i.e. copper) can impact gastrointestinal health. My other takeaway from below is that there is evidence that plumbing may leech metal contamination into drinking water. I am not making any claims that this is what is happening, but offering it as an example of how we should keep an open mind.


Drinking-Water-Induced Copper Intoxication in a Vermont Family
Spitalny, et al... (Pediatrics 1984)
"Three of four family members reported recurrent episodes of gastrointestinal illness while residing in a house in a small northwestern Vermont village. The father and two daughters repeatedly experienced episodes of emesis and abdominal pain after drinking water drawn from their kitchen faucet. One early-morning water sample taken from the family household contained a copper level of 7.8 mg/L, which is above the standard for drinking water (1.0 mg/L). Values for the second daughter's copper in hair analysis (1,200 µ/g) and copper in nail analysis (100 µ/g) were elevated (normal range 11 to 53 µ/g). The household was at the end of a ¾-in (19.05-mm) copper main, and it is suspected that copper levels increased in water when the water remained stagnant in the main. All symptoms of the family resolved when they stopped drinking water in their home. This is the first report of copper-induced gastrointestinal illness attributable to a public supply of drinking water. "

Copper corrosion in drinking water distribution systems — the influence of water quality
A.Elfström Broo∗, B. Berghult∗, T. Hedberg†

The copper corrosion in drinking water was studied using potentiodynamic sweeps, coupon tests and field measurements in different Swedish municipalities. The results were compared with equilibrium calculations. It was shown that for the first hours of water stagnation the system is not at equilibrium and the copper content is determined by the corrosion process. In the absence of calcium the corrosion rate increases linearly with the logarithm of the free carbon dioxide content (the sum of protonated carbonic acid and dissolved carbon dioxide). In the presence of calcium both the corrosion rate and the copper concentration in the water increases with the ratio between the free carbon dioxide and the calcium content. Presence of chloride ions in normal drinking water concentrations decreases the corrosion rate.

Copper in the Urban Water Cycle
Nicolle Boulaya & Marc Edwardsb (Critical Reviews in Environmental Science and Technology, 2000)

Increasingly stringent regulation of wastewater effluents has forced environmental engineers to carefully evaluate the role of copper in the urban water cycle on a case by case basis. To aid these efforts and to serve as a source of background information, this work synthesizes the available literature on sources of copper in the urban environment, their benefits and detriments, sinks, and the basis for copper regulations in the U.S. and abroad. It is anticipated that this review supports rational and holistic planning whenever control of copper in the urban water cycle is considered.


Trace inorganics in rural potable water and their correlation to possible sources
S.S Sandhu, W.J Warren, Peter Nelson (Water Research 1977)

Ninety-eight water samples, comprising about 10% of the total sources available to rural homes in Hampton County, South Carolina, were randomly selected and analyzed for inorganic constituents. Chemical contamination is widespread in this area and many people are using substandard quality water.

A noticeable number of water samples showed unacceptable levels of arsenic, iron, manganese and mercury. Iron and collodial material were chiefly responsible for turbidity in 19% of the water sources. Acceptable levels of cadmium, chloride, copper, lead, nitrate, phosphate, sodium, total solids and zinc were detected in most of the samples.

Statistical analysis indicated that leachings from septic tanks were at least partially responsible for the contamination of shallow water supply sources with nitrate, phosphate, chloride and arsenic. Iron, lead and manganese appear to have come from corrosion of antiquated plumbing in older homes.

Drinking water at the tap: Impact of plumbing materials on water quality
T. Viraraghavanab, K.S. Subramanianc & B.V. Raod


Copper and galvanized steel plumbing systems in houses contribute to trace metal concentrations in drinking water. Levels of lead, zinc, copper, iron and manganese in tap water at various locations in Regina, Canada were monitored and the effect of various factors such as building height, type of building, plumbing age and type of plumbing and water chemistry on trace metal levels was examined. It was found that there was no significant effect of plumbing age or type on the extent of metal leaching in South Regina. In North Regina, plumbing type had a marked effect on the lead and iron levels in drinking water. Lead levels in some individual residences were high; these were probably local effects. It was found that corrosion of solders did not contribute significantly to metal levels. Metal leaching into standing water was found to be mostly from kitchen faucets.

[ericatdallas]

I can provide a few more (a lot more actually), but I don't want to just throw out random research. My point is, there are some things that would account for 'local' effects. Leeching (as described below) will depend on factors such as local water pH, alkalinity, calcium, pluming, etc. It should be no surprise that increased temperatures often will change reaction rates.

Also, another consideration... chloramine. Apparently chlroamine may cause increase leeching (see last article). Again, not making any claims, but I certainly think it's an area worth discussing.

Here's some on metal, plumbing, stuff..

Environmental Monitoring and Assessment
Volume 15, Number 1, 59-82, DOI: 10.1007/BF00454749 Causes of temporal variability of lead in domestic plumbing systems Michael R. Schock


Sources of lead in drinking water are primarily lead pipe, lead/tin solder, and brass fixture materials.
Lead levels in the water depend upon many solubility factors, such as pH, concentrations of substances such as inorganic carbonate, orthophosphate, chlorine, and silicate, the temperature, the nature of the pipe surface, etc. Physical factors, time, and chemical mass transfer are significant in governing lead levels in nonequilibrium systems. The diameter and length of lead pipe is extremely important, as well as the age and chemical history of the solder and brass fixtures. Analytical variability is not particularly significant relative to between-site and within-site variability. Knowledge of temporal variability at each site is necessary to define a statistically valid monitoring program. An analysis of published data covering repetitive measurements at a given site show that the variability of lead concentration at each site tends to be characterized by the frequent occurrence of spikes. Variability expressed as approximate relative standard deviations tends to be of about 50 to 75% in untreated water, regardless of the mean lead concentration. The distributions are frequently nonnormal for small numbers of samples. Monitoring programs must incorporate controls for the causes of the within-site and between-site variability into their sampling design. The determination of necessary sampling frequency, sample number, and sample volume must be made with consideration of the system variability, or the results will be unrepresentative and irreproducible.


Water Research
Volume 35, Issue 3, February 2001, Pages 683–690
Role of temperature, chlorine, and organic matter in copper corrosion by-product release in soft waterNicolle Boulaya, Marc Edwardsb,


Soft, low alkalinity drinking waters tend to cause relatively high copper corrosion by-product release in plumbing systems. Long-term tests (6–8 months) in a synthetic, microbially stable soft tap water confirmed that lower pHs and higher temperatures increased copper release to water. Soluble copper release increased at lower temperature and lower pH. Low levels of free chlorine (0.7 mg/L) slightly increased copper release at pH 9.5, in marked contrast to the dramatic reductions in copper release that have been observed in soft waters in which Type III pitting corrosion is occurring. Gum xanthan and sodium alginate produced a microbially unstable water that reduced the pH and DO during stagnation in pipes — these indirect effects far outweighed their possible role in chelation or other modes of direct attack on copper surfaces.


Water Encyclopedia
Corrosion Control in Drinking Water SystemsChristian J. Volk

The abstract has a lot of tech talk, but lead comes from joints, solder and galvanized pipes can lead to leaching of zinc, iron, cadmium, and lead (impurities)

This paper reviews the pertinent literature published since 1970 on the impact of household plumbing systems on drinking water quality through the leaching of metals such as cadmium, copper, iron, lead, tin and zinc into potable water. Copper is found to be more easily and extensively leached than lead. Copper is leached almost exclusively from copper tubing. Lead can be leached from lead pipes, lead‐tin solders and faucets in residences. Zinc and tin require to be monitored as well.

Impact of household plumbing fixtures on drinking water quality — a review
This paper reviews the pertinent literature published since 1970 on the impact of household plumbing systems on drinking water quality through the leaching of metals such as cadmium, copper, iron, lead, tin and zinc into potable water. Copper is found to be more easily and extensively leached than lead. Copper is leached almost exclusively from copper tubing. Lead can be leached from lead pipes, lead‐tin solders and faucets in residences. Zinc and tin require to be monitored as well.

Leaching of antimony, cadmium, copper, lead, silver, tin and zinc prom copper piping with non‐lead‐based soldered joints
Studies were done on the leaching of Ag, Cd, Cu, Pb, Sb, Sn and Zn from 95/5 Sn/Sb‐, 96/4 Sn/Ag‐, 94/6 Sn/Ag‐, and 95.5/4.0/0.5 Sn/Cu/Ag‐soldered copper pipes into high‐purity, tap, and well water samples as a function of standing time in a static test on new plumbing. There was no significant leaching of Ag, Cd, Pb, Sb and Sn from the above solders into the three types of water samples studied. The amount of Cu released from soldered copper pipes was lower than that released from non‐soldered copper pipes. The amount of Zn leached from the non‐Pb‐based solders studied was well below the Guidelines (<5 mg/1) for Canadian drinking water guality. Since the potential for public health hazard from Pb‐based solders in plumbing systems is significant, it is advisable to use these Pb‐free’ solders.


Unintended Consequences of Chloramine Hit Home Authors: Edwards, Marc; Marshall, Becki; Zhang, Yan; Lee, Yoon-Jin


A switch to chloramine may increase lead leaching, brass failures and pinhole leaks under at least some circumstances. Of these problems, pinhole leaks and brass failures have the largest potential economic consequence. For instance, a single re-plumb can cost an individual consumer 500x more than the median annual projected cost of the Stage 2 regulation. The adverse public health impacts of mold growth from pinhole leaks, lead leaching and bacterial re-growth deserve consideration. While these problems may eventually prove to be rare events, they have significant consequences for the unfortunate consumers who are impacted. If these events prove to be widespread, alternatives to chloramine will become more attractive despite higher initial cost to utilities.

[ericatdallas]

Unintended Consequences of Chloramine Hit Home Authors: Edwards, Marc; Marshall, Becki; Zhang, Yan; Lee, Yoon-Jin


A switch to chloramine may increase lead leaching, brass failures and pinhole leaks under at least some circumstances. Of these problems, pinhole leaks and brass failures have the largest potential economic consequence. For instance, a single re-plumb can cost an individual consumer 500x more than the median annual projected cost of the Stage 2 regulation. The adverse public health impacts of mold growth from pinhole leaks, lead leaching and bacterial re-growth deserve consideration. While these problems may eventually prove to be rare events, they have significant consequences for the unfortunate consumers who are impacted. If these events prove to be widespread, alternatives to chloramine will become more attractive despite higher initial cost to utilities.

ack, triple posting...

Just curious if we've discussed if the people who are having problems have chloramine in their areas? Even if you treat it with Safe/Prime, the effects may still have an impact prior to treatment.

I know that doesn't answer "what about the rest of the year" but doesn't chloramine and chlorine treatment increase during the winter (as some have claimed). Could this, coupled with increased hot water pipes make a contribution?

There can be a diffrence in water in winter in northern states depending on source and ground temps. When water temps go down oxygen concentrations go up(other gasses as well like co2) higher oxygen concentrations lead to higher corrosion rates and higher levels of metals. I've looked it up before. It's also a reason to airiate/age your water (the desolved gasses that is).

I'm not sure if I posted it above, but I did see that research, so +1.

If I get anything out of this, I now realize I need to filter my water before giving it to my infant twins if not just to be extra safe. :P

[jimg]

good info I just want you to know at no time was I meaning to dismiss any of your ideas, I was just trying to offer counter thoughts. I am just giving my ideas, some based on what I was told and some on just my thoughts. I don't have the ability to write as good as you so sometimes I get taken wrong. I have always had respect for the way you post discussions too.
l agree 100% about looking into other areas and trying to rule out things to figure what is if anything a problem.
I think a good thought or comparison would be well water or municipal water. I have brought up a while back on here that I thought people with municipal water were having more problems than the ones with well water.
I think most of the leaching in the articles you show were mainly from water sitting(?)
I know as for corrosion they adjust the ph of water to counter that. i don't know if that includes oxygen corrosion though.
One other thing that was mentioned earlier was about batch dates on the worms I guess we could think many use safe too, maybe there is a bad batch of that as well, not bringing that up to argue, just to think about how many different things it could be.

[cjr8420]

ive read here some thaw some feed frozen chunks.i thaw and then rinse just like u would the live blackworms.i got 25 1lb flat pks.some are alot dirtier than others .its alot easier to overfeed the frozen more worms per chunk that other frozen foods.i would bet its not the worms directly but diminished water quality from not rinsing the worms and overfeeding have u noticed nastier filter media or prefilter sponges i have on both hth

[lipadj46]

I feed frozen chunk, i do daily water changes though and rinse my pads and sponges every few days

[ericatdallas]

I have always had respect for the way you post discussions too.

Jim, I actually take that as a high compliment, thanks for that. I know times people take me wrong and I try to be as thoughtful as possible in trying to understand what people are saying, but I know I fail a lot at it too.. but I try :P

l agree 100% about looking into other areas and trying to rule out things to figure what is if anything a problem.
I think a good thought or comparison would be well water or municipal water. I have brought up a while back on here that I thought people with municipal water were having more problems than the ones with well water.
I think most of the leaching in the articles you show were mainly from water sitting(?)
I know as for corrosion they adjust the ph of water to counter that. i don't know if that includes oxygen corrosion though.
One other thing that was mentioned earlier was about batch dates on the worms I guess we could think many use safe too, maybe there is a bad batch of that as well, not bringing that up to argue, just to think about how many different things it could be.

Some of the articles did mention that increased water velocity does increase corrosion. Others had various reasons for corrosion, but mainly I referenced them as something that happens and for at least trout and that family, it does have gastrointestinal effects.

Again, it's a possibility, but not necessarily the only one or definitively so. It is one that is commonly referenced for the cause of shrimp deaths, which leads me on that track of research and inevitably back here to make my comments (at least for copper). I did find it interesting that the family had gastrointestinal problems from tap water due to copper (and it was referenced as a rare exception) and one that probably wasn't immediately obvious to the doctors.

I did read that sulfate-based dechlorinators may encourage certain bacterial growth. Not sure at what levels and if those bacteria are bad for fish. I do know I way overdose on dechlor for my fish (seachem safe and sodium thiosulfate) and I haven't noticed issues yet.

I think like TV crime dramas and real life crime fighters, it's often prudent to look at all potential suspects.

I also am now wondering if people who use Australian Blackworms see similar effects in Australia?

[ericatdallas]

ive read here some thaw some feed frozen chunks.i thaw and then rinse just like u would the live blackworms.i got 25 1lb flat pks.some are alot dirtier than others .its alot easier to overfeed the frozen more worms per chunk that other frozen foods.i would bet its not the worms directly but diminished water quality from not rinsing the worms and overfeeding have u noticed nastier filter media or prefilter sponges i have on both hth

That's a good point.

Also, in overfeeding, like raw meat, are people letting uneated dead blackworms stay in the water too long. Increased discus tank temperatures might speed up decay... are worms being sucked into filters and rotting or hiding behind other things like sponge filters, driftwood, etc? In this case, can we attribute this to blackworms or proper discus care even if blackworms decay faster than other foods?

I also had a time with mysis shrimp (it was pretty old) and someone here suggested it probably wasn't properly stored, so I tossed it, but I still don't know why my fish seemed to have negative reaction to it. It had been in my refrigerator at that point for months, but in the freezer door where it's constantly exposed versus a deep freezer (where I now keep frozen foods that I don't plan to use right away).

This is anecdotal and I never gave it much thought since (especially at the time), but when I was a teenager, during blackouts, when the power went out, we monitored the frozen and refrigeration areas, and if at any point the temperature went above 32F for frozen, I forgot what it was for dairy (there were several standards depending on product, storage area, etc), we tossed the items. (EDIT: I worked for a grocery store).

This might be more due to regulation and over-protection, but at the same time, if people are constantly taking frozen foods in and out of their refrigerator and letting it thaw, ---can that have an impact on food safety? I don't know... (I also know, at least for local policy, we tossed any refrigerated food that a customer took out of the area unless we knew for certain that it hadn't been out for long and we always were instructed to just be safe and toss it).

[brewmaster15]

Enough everyone...This thread is another one of those ones that has no end in sight...17 pages of arguments, and back and forth bickering.. I had hoped that people could actually keep things civil but its not happening. I had also hoped I would not have to post at all...fat chance there I guess.

Some observations... Theres some people in this thread that really need to take a long hard look at how they post...same names , same games... And here's a news flash folks...many of you are just as guilty in your posting as those you are attacking here...last I heard, 2 wrongs didn't make a right.

FWIW...It's old.Not just this thread but what I have seen in many threads over the last few months.. Does anyone actually think its okay to attack someone personally here ? Its not. not even in the defense of someone else or something you hold dear.. I realize there are many opinions out there on a subject, and people don't agree 100%....but just state your opinion and move on....These petty and personal arguments are not acceptable.Take it to Pms, take off my forum if you can't get along with someone.

Be forewarned...Changes are coming to this forum...and some people are going to find out the hard way that Admins here tired of baby sitting.

This thread is locked.

Seriously disappointed,
Al,
Forum Owner.