Frozen Blackworms and your Discus

[nc0gnet0]

First of all, a few things. There are the possible parasites/bacteria that may exist in the water the blackworms are raised in, and then the parasites/bacteria that may exist in the worms themselves. And then you would also need to analyze the leaches that seem to come with the worms too.

It is my understanding that Dan's operation uses river water. Is this water treated before entering the ponds?

I would be curious to see the results.....call the UAF and get a quote, see if its reasonable and then take up a collection.

Rick

[ericatdallas]

"there's no guarantee of anything"
+1
Actually there are alot that say no to live and now alot are freaking over frozen...not sure your reading the posts right...there are some against and some pro.

I'm talking about other threads and it was my subjective assessment of it. I didn't say there wasn't a full spectrum of opinions.

Frozen worms are suppsoed be have been irradiated, but some are seeing issues with their discus after feeding the frozen worms ...

That's why I said ..."and cooking it". It wasn't an either/or statement.


E. coli and salomenella were examples... but coming from a family of chefs and restaurant owners, I know that's not true. I had to look this up, but "In the United States, using FoodNet data from 2000–2007, the CDCP estimated there were 47.8 million foodborne illnesses".

Most food illness goes unreported. In fact, I'm positive I got food poisoning a few weeks ago, but after some uncomfortable bowel movements, I went on with my life and never filed a report with the CDC or went to the hospital. Another time I was sick for a week and lost 10 pounds, vomitted day and night. I should have went to the doctor but did not. I suspect a lot of other people do the same.

Don't mistake my statements as support for blackworms or against them. In some cases I'm playing devils advocate and in other cases, I'm just probing to find answers like everyone else.


I personally have nothing for or against blackworms. I was going to buy some for my fish and I probably still will (live). I still feed my fish bloodworms and brine shrimp even with all the people who are against it.

But one thing people forget about scientific rigor... it always starts with speculation, aka a hypothesis... which is often initiated by a historical search or literature search. So while I agree that laboratory studies help, I don't think thoughtful discussion is a waste of time.

[Sean Buehrle]

What would help here for data purposes would be for folks to comment only if they have fed live or frozen blackworms for a length of time. Share either positive or negative experiences. All the hearsay or read somewhere opinions really don't contribute to the purpose of the thread.

This isn't the feedback forum, I'm pretty sure we can discuss this any way we like.
It's not in a sponser section nor feedback on a purchase.

I'm pretty sure it has no rules about who can post in it or how they post.

[Chicago Discus]

What would help here for data purposes would be for folks to comment only if they have fed live or frozen blackworms for a length of time. Share either positive or negative experiences. All the hearsay or read somewhere opinions really don't contribute to the purpose of the thread.

I agree Mark... I have been feeding live black worms for years to all my fish not just discus and have not had any issues yet, I have had some worms that were not so fresh so I would discard them or any food for that matter. you can study all types of food fresh seafood,vegetables or even some processed foods that have bacteria and pathogens that can make you(or your fish)sick or kill you......................................Josie

[TNT77]

Has anyone thought of adding a small amount of metro & prazi to the worm water if they are worried about them carrying the parasites. I did a round of both on my new rays and it didnt phase the worms in the tank in the slightest.

[ericatdallas]

This isn't the feedback forum, I'm pretty sure we can discuss this any way we like.
It's not in a sponser section nor feedback on a purchase.

I'm pretty sure it has no rules about who can post in it or how they post.

+1

[ericatdallas]

So basically you have no experience feeding live blackworms to your fish then right? How exactly are you helping answer the OP's question?

He's saying, before people talk this in circles, people should find an objective way to evaluate it. His proposal in of itself is a solution.

[nc0gnet0]

How many worms would you need to test before the results were conclusive? 1? 100? 1000?

[Discus Origins]

He's saying, before people talk this in circles, people should find an objective way to evaluate it. His proposal in of itself is a solution.

And I agreed with him some scientific testing would be helpful. My comment was to focus the thread back onto the OPs original question - 'has anyone else had problems feeding their fish frozen blackworms'

[Sean Buehrle]

So basically you have no experience feeding live blackworms to your fish then right? How exactly are you helping answer the OP's question?

Deleted by me

[Second Hand Pat]

70,000lbs of live blackworms sold last year...you stated 4 people have reported sick discus. Of course I'm sure that's not all the people...but that would seem pretty rare to me at 70,000lb to 4.

I have spoken to Gary (Turq64) and Pat (secondhandpat) extensively about what their problems were and it was a Columnaris bacterial outbreak. Yun (YSS) is experiencing digestive/excrement problems, they are not the same. So how do we go about just pointing the cause at just the worms? If the worms harboured the same parasites shouldn't all the sick fish exhibit the same symptoms? I'm not saying that they are 100% safe, I have just had good experiences with live for years.....raising juvies, breeding pairs, etc.

I agree with you some testing would be good to figure out scientifically for sure if and what blackworms harbor in terms of parasites.

Mark is correct where my first issues was a Columnaris bacterial outbreak. I thought a couple of the fish were off (not quite right) and Gary PMed me suggesting to stop feeding the live worms. He was experiencing Columnaris issues but I would rather for him to post about that should he choose too.

Note here is where I quit feeding the live but continued with the frozen worms about five or six weeks ago.

I am currently experiencing the issues Yun and Sean are experiencing. A couple of fish quit eating and one having issues with the white poop (I know the dreaded white poo). I have also noticed that the fish were not eating the blackworms with their normal vigor. At this point in time I am not feeding live or frozen, only the FDBWs and the fish's appetites have picked up.

Personally I love feeding the worms. The fish love them and get nice and thick. The juvies grow like mad and the worms do not spoil in the tank. Here I am only relating my experiences. I also will be happy to support any effort make for testing.

Another observation is everyone seems to be having problems in this time frame.

[Discus Origins]

Censoring? I believe in post #64 the OP asked for exactly what I suggested. Ive posted my experiences, you just now posted your experience without any details as in how long you feed, live or frozen worms, your fish symptoms. So what are your motives with your posts if mine supposedly has one?

[Chicago Discus]

He's saying, before people talk this in circles, people should find an objective way to evaluate it. His proposal in of itself is a solution.

Ok Eric why don't we let Sean speak for himself he does ok explaining himself and the proposal that your talking about is not in itself a solution because you have to have a problem to come up with a solution. I don't have a problem with feeding black worms live, frozen or freeze-dried if you do have a problem with the product don't feed it find something else its that easy.

[ericatdallas]

Ok Eric why don't we let Sean speak for himself he does ok explaining himself and the proposal that your talking about is not in itself a solution because you have to have a problem to come up with a solution. I don't have a problem with feeding black worms live, frozen or freeze-dried if you do have a problem with the product don't feed it find something else its that easy.

Josie, you're right, I should let Sean speak for himself. on the second part of your statement, it confuses me. I never told anyone to stop feeding blackworms or anyone to start feeding them. Not sure where you got that idea.

I'll bow out though. I have no problems getting into fights online or offline, but it's not the way I like to spend my free time. I agree with Mark and Sean in their respective main points.

[TNT77]

Mark is correct where my first issues was a Columnaris bacterial outbreak. I thought a couple of the fish were off (not quite right) and Gary PMed me suggesting to stop feeding the live worms. He was experiencing Columnaris issues but I would rather for him to post about that should he choose too.

Note here is where I quit feeding the live but continued with the frozen worms about five or six weeks ago.

I am currently experiencing the issues Yun and Sean are experiencing. A couple of fish quit eating and one having issues with the white poop (I know the dreaded white poo). I have also noticed that the fish were not eating the blackworms with their normal vigor. At this point in time I am not feeding live or frozen, only the FDBWs and the fish's appetites have picked up.

Personally I love feeding the worms. The fish love them and get nice and thick. The juvies grow like mad and the worms do not spoil in the tank. Here I am only relating my experiences. I also will be happy to support any effort make for testing.

Another observation is everyone seems to be having problems in this time frame.

Just wondering could the columnaris outbreak have affected the fish to the point that it weakened them enough for parasites or an intestinal issue?