My Planted Tank Experience

[gerrard00]

Here is a simple story. The story begins with feeding your fish (something you can’t avoid). Some of that food gets absorbed by the fish as nutrients and some of it turns into waste. Some of it goes uneaten as well. Over time, uneaten food and waste will build up and degrade water quality. It does not “go away” if you use filters and it would take a great deal of fast growing nitrate hogging plants to make a dent in your nitrates. Basically, the waste gets removed by cleaning filter media and replacing water.

If you want to make it harder on yourself by trapping uneaten food/waste in your substrate, rocks, decor, etc. then you will have more work to do in this hobby. Again, it’s just more work, but it can be done. Many of us chose to go an easier route by using one or all the following methods:

1) bare bottom tanks (easier to locate the waste)
2) no decorations in the tanks (easier to locate the waste)
3) avoiding hard to clean filters (easier to squeeze out a sponge filter than it is to open up a canister filter)
4) feeding “clean” foods (beefheart is messy, freeze dried black worms are not)
5) keeping smaller populations of discus per tank (more fish, more food, more waste, more frequent cleaning)

The end.

Posts like yours are the kind that convinced me that I could grow out my juvies in a planted tank. If it was just a little more work, I was OK with that idea. I would just have to really do thorough gravel cleaning...no big deal. I thought that the people who went BB were just taking a short cut or an "easier route" as you say. It's not "just more work". Anyone reading the experiences detailed here can see that.

Perhaps you are just much better at this than I am and it wasn't as much of a challenge for you. Perhaps you had more experience with fish keeping before you got started. At any rate, I would wager that there are more people out there at my skill level who are going to have bigger problems than "just more work". Problems like sick fish, fish that are dark, fish that don't grow, plants that don't grow, etc.

I love my planted tank! I just wish I hadn't let advice like yours convince me to start out by doing a juvie growout in it.

[ExReefer]

I was trying to keep this simple. Fish tanks are closed systems (excluding drip tanks). What goes in must be removed at some point to keep water quality in check. The uneaten food and waste does not magically disappear (just becasue your water looks clear). Pretty simple concept in my opinion. I don't see how that's misleading or poor advice. If a beginner doesn't understand that uneaten food and waste must be removed by the hobbyist, then they have no business keeping discus in the first place. Whether or not substrate is used, the concept is the same. The only difference is the amount of work involved, like I said.

[gerrard00]

I was trying to keep this simple. Fish tanks are closed systems (excluding drip tanks). What goes in must be removed at some point to keep water quality in check. The uneaten food and waste does not magically disappear (just becasue your water looks clear). Pretty simple concept in my opinion. I don't see how that's misleading or poor advice. If a beginner doesn't understand that uneaten food and waste must be removed by the hobbyist, then they have no business keeping discus in the first place. Whether or not substrate is used, the concept is the same. The only difference is the amount of work involved, like I said.

We are all saying that it's not just a difference in the amount of work. You have every right to disagree with us. That's fine. All I can ask is that you actually read our experiences posted above and you'll see that we are saying it's much more than just the amount of work. In fact, if it were only a difference in the amount of work, this sticky wouldn't even be needed. There is another sticky that is about the difference in the amount of work! I'm saying that even if you do all of the additional work, you're setting yourself up with much more chance of failure. That's why this thread was added.

Perhaps you have had a different, contrasting experience? Feel free to share! I don't think it's helpful for you to come into the conversation and tell us that we are all wrong, "the end". I don't see how that is helpful to anyone.

Posts that suggested that it's only a matter of more work are what lead me to believe that I should grow my juvies out in a planted tank. I figured it was just a little more work dealing with a planted tank and the naysayers just didn't want to bother dealing with fertilizers and lights and things of that nature. I figured, "how hard could it be?". As long as I kept my nitrates below 10, I figured I'd be golden. I ignored the posts that stressed that growing out in a planted tank was going to be a huge challenge. I focused on the ones, like yours, that said it was just "more work", because that's what I wanted to believe. In all honesty, I believed people on other forums who said that SD members were maintenance obsessed and doing unnecessary changes. I wish I hadn't.

[ExReefer]

I think the sticky is a good idea to share experiences. However, I chose to believe the bad experiences occured from not putting in the proper amount of work. Work in this regard can mean many things: researching how to keep discus, changing water regularly, cleaning substrate regularly, cleaning filters, wiping down glass, etc. Success in this hobby requires a certain amount of work. For the beginner, there is more work as they have to spend time learning how to care for discus BEFORE actually starting a discus tank. I think the vast majority of failure in this hobby comes from people rushing into things and starting out with good intentions only to slowly cut back on their maintenance (i.e. work).

gerrardd00 - I don't know exactly why you failed as you did not share your personal experience. You mentioned keeping nitrates at less than 10ppm. That's important, but did you also clean your filters and substrate regularly? Did you overfeed your fish? Did you purchase high quality stock to begin with? Did you quarantine your stock first? Did you get them trained to eat high quality foods? All of those things require effort on your part and many of them have nothing do to with a planted tank. Placing healthy stock in a planted tank does not magically make them sick. Lack of work causes failure in this hobby.

[ExReefer]

My personal experiences:

I rushed into the hobby with poor quality stock from a LFS. I overfed my fish out of fear of stunting them. My tank was loaded with plants and under filtered. After a few weeks of daily WC’s and siphoning the substrate clean, I got lazy and cut back on maintenance. I continued to power feed my fish with messy foods like beef heart. The fish slowly lost their appetite due to poor water quality, got sick and eventually stunted. I gave some away and sold a few at a major discount.

I tried bare bottom with high quality stock. This method worked well and required the less work. I eventually got tired of the look and made another attempt at a planted tank. However this time, I did things differently:

1) tank is lightly planted with “easy” plants like crypts and anubias
2) tank has a very thin layer of pool filter sand
3) sand is cleaned at every other WC
4) tank is over filtered and filters are turned off turning every feeding
5) started out with larger, high quality discus (4-5” TL)
6) quarantined my discus for about 45 days
7) trained them to eat my offered foods and recognize me as their food source

My second attempt has been very successful. I’m thrilled with my results and I’m able to keep the look of a planted tank. If I wanted more plants, less filtration, or smaller discus, it would simply require more work on my part (which I'm not willing to do).

By the way, I do still keep some bare bottom tanks for grow out purposes. Planted tank is a display tank.

[ericatdallas]

I think the sticky is a good idea to share experiences. However, I chose to believe the bad experiences occured from not putting in the proper amount of work. Work in this regard can mean many things: researching how to keep discus, changing water regularly, cleaning substrate regularly, cleaning filters, wiping down glass, etc.

Well, the reason for the sticky (started in another thread, see post #2) started because MANY people time and time again come back and say how much they regret starting with a planted tank. It seemed like a good idea b/c rather than having 1-3 new posts a week asking about planted tanks, it provided an easy place for people to read the experiences of people who tried before. I don't think it was to exclude 'success stories' but it was meant to prevent endless arguments of people talking in circles which were happening regularly (i.e. the philosophical disagreement occurring right now as we speak - which occurs in all the new threads that pop up).

With that said.. I think in my initial story I stated it wasn't due to lack of effort. I don't know if you have seen my other posts, but I'm confident no one would ever accuse me of lack of research.

I changed water twice a day, I cleaned substrate during EVERY WC, etc. I cleaned out my HOB filter daily with a rinse in used tank water and cleaned out the canister weekly to bi-weekly.

My discus still died. HOWEVER, if you're saying it's still possible to grow out nice Discus and have a high survival rate from juvies IF a person does MORE work, then I still think that gets the point across...

That if you think you have a lot of experience, that you think you understand the aquarium hobby very well, you've researched what it takes to keep a tank clean, you do TWICE daily WC of at least 33-50%, rinse your filter media daily, gravel vac twice a day during WC, and feed high quality foods 5x a day to your Discus --- AND ---- THAT IS STILL NOT ENOUGH. and you NEED TO DO MORE then I would say yes, you're right.

Again, it's not to say that it's IMPOSSIBLE.

While I never said my Discus were show quality in my BB Tank (in fact, I explicitly stated in the original post that they were not), I am still happy with them and willing to show them. I don't think I've found anyone that has shown their growouts from a planted tank yet.

If you have, please post them and give us a good formula. Again, this isn't a challenge, but many people aren't going to believe it until they see it and if you can give a good detailed 'formula' for success, there are a LOT of people who are willing to do the work to make it happen.

Either way, even if it is possible, I think we all agree it's not cost-effective or worthwhile to try. That it makes more sense to growout the fish then put it in a planted tank (or start out with adults in the first place). What we don't want people to think after reading this thread is that it's only 2x harder or 3x harder instead of an order of magnitude harder. What we don't want people to get the impression of is that it's common practice.

In fact, implying that a 'newbie' isn't working hard enough or didn't learn enough is only going to discourage people from continuing the hobby. If it is possible, we want to impress upon the new hobbyist that there are many factors beyond our control that are very impractical to even the advanced aquarist.

[ExReefer]

"I changed water twice a day, I cleaned substrate during EVERY WC, etc. I cleaned out my HOB filter daily with a rinse in used tank water and cleaned out the canister weekly to bi-weekly."

If you truly stuck to this schedule, then you fish died for reasons outside of keeping a planted tank. I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. What about keeping a planted tank could have caused your fish to die with the kind of care you just described?

We can agree that's it's not cost-effective or worthwhile to try a planted tank as a beginner. I agree because I think that despite the beginner that does his/her research, they still under-estimate the amount of work involved in caring for a planted discus tank. I would not recommend a planted discus tank to a beginner. I never have. Check my posts within the last 12 months if you wish.

I can't say I've grown out juvies in a planted tank, but I have and continue to grow out sub-adults in my lightly planted discus tank. Search for photos of my Piwowarski discus for reference. I've very pleased with their development. Under my care since August, they have added 1 to 1.5" of growth. All are over 6" now and I believe they are still growing and very young. Pairing activity has just recently become a priority for them.

If I decided to grow out juvies in my lightly planted tank, it would require more food and more cleanings.

[ericatdallas]

"I changed water twice a day, I cleaned substrate during EVERY WC, etc. I cleaned out my HOB filter daily with a rinse in used tank water and cleaned out the canister weekly to bi-weekly."

If you truly stuck to this schedule, then you fish died for reasons outside of keeping a planted tank. I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. What about keeping a planted tank could have caused your fish to die with the kind of care you just described?.

Okay, so you're calling me a liar?

As has been discussed in other threads, there might be other considerations such as DOCs that build up. Nitrogen is an indicator of poor water, not necessarily the only thing. Let me give you an example. People get scurvy. It's a vitamin C deficiency. Does that mean by giving this person Vitamin C, we have now solved their malnutrition? No, because while scurvy is a vitamin C deficiency, are we missing why this person is not getting enough vitamin C? Perhaps it's due to not being able to afford food. So while giving them a vitamin C tablet solves a symptom, it does not solve the root cause. Same aspirin. The person may have a tumor, did we solve the symptom or the problem? There's a difference.

Second, while I did maintained that routine, that doesn't necessarily mean it was enough. Which is basically what I said. That even keeping to that schedule, I was unable to keep it to a level where the organics didn't get trapped in the sediment. No matter how diligent I was. Arguably, I didn't do it well enough, fine, that's your opinion.

Here's the dilemma I have. You're questioning my integrity and my motives. I would end the discussion b/c you implied what I said was untruthful. I can't disprove your statement so it's a waste of time. I do have a honest goal of educating and informing other people on keeping Discus. I think it helps everyone. Which is why I will choose to continue to discuss it rationally, but I would appreciate you not speculating on my work ethic or my honesty and I won't question yours.

I can't say I've grown out juvies in a planted tank, but I have and continue to grow out sub-adults in my lightly planted discus tank.

Let me get this straight. You not only doubt my integrity, but you do so without having the experience yourself? Nice...

If I decided to grow out juvies in my lightly planted tank, it would require more food and more cleanings.

Ok

[ExReefer]

Please, take it easy. I'm not calling you a liar or questioning your integrity. I said it must have been something else that killed your fish. I don't buy into your belief that despite superior care, the only thing that must have killed your fish was that they were in a planted tank. I'm sorry to upset you or cause confusion.

We can agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with that.

[gerrard00]

I think the sticky is a good idea to share experiences. However, I chose to believe the bad experiences occured from not putting in the proper amount of work. Work in this regard can mean many things: researching how to keep discus, changing water regularly, cleaning substrate regularly, cleaning filters, wiping down glass, etc. Success in this hobby requires a certain amount of work. For the beginner, there is more work as they have to spend time learning how to care for discus BEFORE actually starting a discus tank. I think the vast majority of failure in this hobby comes from people rushing into things and starting out with good intentions only to slowly cut back on their maintenance (i.e. work).

gerrardd00 - I don't know exactly why you failed as you did not share your personal experience. You mentioned keeping nitrates at less than 10ppm. That's important, but did you also clean your filters and substrate regularly? Did you overfeed your fish? Did you purchase high quality stock to begin with? Did you quarantine your stock first? Did you get them trained to eat high quality foods? All of those things require effort on your part and many of them have nothing do to with a planted tank. Placing healthy stock in a planted tank does not magically make them sick. Lack of work causes failure in this hobby.

I didn't say I failed. I'm actually very proud of what I accomplished keeping 4/6 fish alive and growing at least two of them to almost 7" TL. In fact, I did share my personal experiences in an earlier post, but I don't think you actually read it. I also have another thread detailing my experiences with photos and videos from my first year. Here's a quick snap of the fish I'm proudest of:




Not show quality by any stretch, but I'm proud that I grew them out that well despite my mistake to grow them out in a planted tank. I never stopped doing daily waterchanges, plus extra turkey basting, plus gravel vacuuming before lights out until I felt like they had matured. I fed them multiple kinds of high protein and high quality foods like beefheart mix, Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef Flake, Colorbits, NLS Discus Formula and a once a week bloodworm or mysis shrimp treat. What I said was, despite all of my hard work doing daily changes, including wiping down the glass every time, including vacuuming the gravel every time, including turkey basting after every feeding, despite researching and experimenting with fertilizers and lights, despite feeding four or five different high quality feeds recommended on this site, I had less success than if I had grown out my fish in a BB. I really don't think you can just quantify my experiences as "just not enough work", when I was spending close to two hours a day working on my tank. Read the other posts in this thread, it doesn't seem like folks who were just lazy and didn't keep up their maintenance.

In another post you state that you had success with a planted tank when you started out with almost grown 4-5" inch fish. Well, that seems to jibe with my opinion that it's a mistake to grow out juvies in a planted tank. I would consider a 4-5" fish almost an adult. Many beginners think they'll save money by buying 2.5" fish and sticking them in a planted tank. I see posts like that in the beginner section all the time. That's what I did and I'm trying to suggest to those people that they shouldn't do it. If I had it to do over again, I would grow those 2.5" fish in a smaller BB tank until they hit a year and then, I would start thinking about a display tank. More mature discus have better eating habits and a better immune system. This isn't stuff that the people on this thread made up, it's common knowledge in the hobby.

Barring that, I would just buy older fish at 4-5" like you've done. If I'm reading your posts correctly, you've never done a growout of 2.5" fish in a planted tank, right? So what motivates you to come into this thread to tell the people who have had these experiences that we just haven't worked hard enough, case closed, thread over, the end? This is a discussion forum. We're hear to discuss our experiences and possibly help others, not to have someone come along and disparage us and suggest that we were all just not working hard enough and we have no points to share. Especially someone who has never even done a growout in a planted tank!

I have two new discus to replace the ones that died. I bought them at 4.5"and they are currently in a BB QT tank for their 7th week. I can feed enough that both fish get full and then turkey baste the leftovers right out. Waterchanges are so easy it feels slightly naughty. I will never again do a juvie growout in a planted tank!

[gerrard00]

Second, while I did maintained that routine, that doesn't necessarily mean it was enough. Which is basically what I said. That even keeping to that schedule, I was unable to keep it to a level where the organics didn't get trapped in the sediment. No matter how diligent I was. Arguably, I didn't do it well enough, fine, that's your opinion.

Before I got involved with discus keeping, I figured two or three 33% changes a week would be fine. Actually, I thought that was probably overkill. I quickly upped that to 50% changes 7 days a week and that wasn't really enough. Just what I could live with. On a few occasions I went nuts and did two 50% changes in a day. My fish were even happier. I'm sure they would have been totally delighted with multiple 90% changes a day. In the end, I don't think you can spend enough time or water cleaning up a tank with juvies and substrate. I don't trust anyone's opinion on this subject until they've actually done a growout themselves and posted pictures of healthy, round, well colored fish.

[ExReefer]

gerrard00 - read post 20, first paragraph where I dicuss my first failure with planted tank. I did not specfify they were juvies, but they were. I failed due to lack of knowledge and laziness.

Despite all the back and forth between us, I believe that we are doing some educating along the way. I just wish things were not taken so personally sometimes.

Gerrard - this is what lead me to believe you failed at a planted tank. Here are some of your sentences: "At any rate, I would wager that there are more people out there at my skill level who are going to have bigger problems than "just more work". Problems like sick fish, fish that are dark, fish that don't grow, plants that don't grow, etc."

"Posts that suggested that it's only a matter of more work are what lead me to believe that I should grow my juvies out in a planted tank. I figured it was just a little more work dealing with a planted tank and the naysayers just didn't want to bother dealing with fertilizers and lights and things of that nature. I figured, "how hard could it be?". As long as I kept my nitrates below 10, I figured I'd be golden. I ignored the posts that stressed that growing out in a planted tank was going to be a huge challenge. I focused on the ones, like yours, that said it was just "more work", because that's what I wanted to believe. In all honesty, I believed people on other forums who said that SD members were maintenance obsessed and doing unnecessary changes. I wish I hadn't."

Those don't sound like success stories so I assumed you were trying to imply you failed at a juvie planted tank.

[AngryBird]

Great post.

[Sean Buehrle]

Sometimes I think that people who try and keep a planted tank with adult or juvenile discus do a lot of things wrong, and it stacks the deck against them.

Don't get me wrong with what I'm about to say, I'm not putting anyone down or pointing any fingers, it's just what I have observed, and I have made the same mistakes myself.

What I always see is a person breaking all the rules or trying to make a sort of community tank of sorts.

Keeping discus with other fish, it's not really a rule but in my experience and from what I've noticed is that a lot of people in the disease and meds section are listing tank mates.

Mixing fish from different sources or buying fish from the pet store.

Adding fish later or one at a time.

Always wanting to tweak their water parameters, it's like they are never satisfied with it.

Sometimes I think people are just too stubborn to accept simple rules and admit they were wrong and quit making the same mistakes over and over.

Do you guys know how many times I've seen people make the promise to never try and raise Juvies in a planted tank only to take new fish and plop them in a bb tank with some store bought Pleco?

It drives me crazy and sometimes I want to just tell them to give up discus because they will always have the same old problems.

I believe that under the right circumstances a person could raise some decent Juvies in a planted tank but they just make too many bad decisions along the way, once you get em sick it's pretty much over and done with.

[ericatdallas]

I can't remember if I stated it in the original post or not, but I don't think it was strictly cleanliness that ended some of my Discus.

Some of it I attribute to the stress they got from the high light which was required for the plants. I don't know this for certain, but I do notice that my Discus in different tanks are happier based on the lighting. I've sinced switched all my lights in my fish room to LEDs (this was more b/c I leave lights on and saved money but also because they were dimmer and I could position them like a spotlight where I needed them most - not at my fish).

My fish room is also my laundry room and storage room (in basement). The Discus nearest to the bright light that my wife insists for her to do laundry are easily started and skittish. The Discus on the far side where the light is dimmer approaches me. Again, hard to say if this is it... the fish near the bright lights are also newer, are closer to the lound washer/dryer, have more foot traffic, and probably other factors. While the other fish are the ones I've had (raised from juvies), so they might be used to everything.

Also, another factor, and I've read this from other previous posts is that discus like to hide when they have the opportunity. Which I know I did mention. The more aggressive and bigger Discus went out and ate while the smaller Discus hid. They missed a lot of opportunities to eat. They grew weak.

Finally, another reason why one discus died was it got crushed in the decorations by swimming into a rock cave and getting stuck. I didn't know it was there until the next morning and it probably thrashed around and couldn't figure out how to get out <shrug>.

So I never said it was purely from cleanliness although that's one factor that makes the BB very strong. So I agree with Sean, usually there are mistakes to be made that compound on each other but they are more likely to happen with planted tanks and newbies.

I've said this before, I think there has to be a way for it to work. One of the things for sure is to limit tight spaces for Discus to get trapped in and another is to figure out a way to keep junk from getting trapped in the roots.