Withdrawn: Pat's Contest Fish Wild Tefe F1 "Batch B"

[Brokenrack]

Pat, Forgive me for jumping in here but what is your water hardness? Some minerals might help your growth rate ( I would go overboard on it though)
Just a thought.
Scott

[Second Hand Pat]

Scott, you are suppose to jump in . These guys just went to full tap water last night so GH is 160 ppm and TDS is 210 which is a bit lower then I last measured (233). Guess all that rain last week kicked the TDS down on the well water. I pull the well water from a limestone layer which is fairly mineral rich.

[Keith Perkins]

It'll be interesting to see what the gill plates look like as the fish grow older in the higher TDS water now. I'll be interested to see what others think about that plate length at this age.

[Tommo]

It'll be interesting to see what the gill plates look like as the fish grow older in the higher TDS water now. I'll be interested to see what others think about that plate length at this age.

Thinks . . . a few years ago a number of Discus breeders, including myself, in the N. W. of England had problems with fry exhibiting extended gill opercular. Normally accompanied with faster than normal resperation although no parasites or flukes were evident. I met with a breeder who lived near Manchester and he had found a solution to the problem: using barley straw a product that is often used to control algae and green water in ponds. Many pond suppliers sell small pads of the straw which are then dropped onto the surface of the pond as a control.

Interestingly, he started to treat the water he used for his water changes by dropping a pad into his water storage containers - the problem disappeared. Nobody could figure out why but it certainly worked!

Of course there could be a number of other reasons that can cause problems with the development of gill opercular, e.g. oxygen deficiency at an early stage of development, but I thought SD members might find this interesting?

Paul

[Second Hand Pat]

It'll be interesting to see what the gill plates look like as the fish grow older in the higher TDS water now. I'll be interested to see what others think about that plate length at this age.

Keith, I PMed the fry closeup picture to one our super doper breeders here on SD and he suggest to watch how the fry develop over the next several weeks. Not all the fry from this spawn is affected is worst case these fry are culled.

I did lookup some of the old Dale Jordan fry pictures and the gill plate is definitely short and I am not really sure if this is fixable at this point but time will tell.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thinks . . . a few years ago a number of Discus breeders, including myself, in the N. W. of England had problems with fry exhibiting extended gill opercular. Normally accompanied with faster than normal resperation although no parasites or flukes were evident. I met with a breeder who lived near Manchester and he had found a solution to the problem: using barley straw a product that is often used to control algae and green water in ponds. Many pond suppliers sell small pads of the straw which are then dropped onto the surface of the pond as a control.

Interestingly, he started to treat the water he used for his water changes by dropping a pad into his water storage containers - the problem disappeared. Nobody could figure out why but it certainly worked!

Of course there could be a number of other reasons that can cause problems with the development of gill opercular, e.g. oxygen deficiency at an early stage of development, but I thought SD members might find this interesting?

Paul

That is interesting Paul, I wonder what was in the water supply causing this. In my case I am guessing mineral poor water while the fry were in with the parents. I reviewed the 6 week old video of the Batch A fry and all the gill plates were normal.

[Tommo]

IMO Pat, mineral poor water is unlikely to cause problems with Discus - in their natural habital mineral content is almost non existent. I should have also mentioned in my previous post that some fry also exhibited shortened opercular.

Another thought: was there any infusoria evident in the water when they were young? Young Discus seem to be adversely affected when infusoria is present indeed, adult Discus show an obvious dislike when infusoria is present. Infusoria competes for oxygen and one has to be careful when raising certain species of fish not to introduce too much infusoria as it can cause gill deformities (the humble tiger barb and penguin tetra are clasic examples).

BTW sorry for not replying to your earlier email: been mad busy since my return to China - not to mention jet-lag! The Batch A fry do indeed show some real potential. I used to love watching young Discus develop . . .

Paul

[Second Hand Pat]

Paul, I am not really sure about the infusoria. This batch was raised in the 230 gallon parent tank just like batch A. This is a huge tank with a sump and a sump tends to super oxygenate the water. So question, do you know if the short gill plates are permanent? or can the fry overcome this issue? Also could this be genetic?

[Tommo]

Paul, I am not really sure about the infusoria. This batch was raised in the 230 gallon parent tank just like batch A. This is a huge tank with a sump and a sump tends to super oxygenate the water. So question, do you know if the short gill plates are permanent? or can the fry overcome this issue? Also could this be genetic?

Pat it could possibly be a congenital problem but, given that you are working with wild fish, I think that this is unlikely - unless one of your parent fish has this condition? I also think that the shortened opercular are unlikely to regenerate - I can't say this for certain however, as I've always culled fish exhibiting this trait.

It would be interesting to compare the progeny of the 'new' male used with Batch B compared to the male that sired Batch A in order to see if if it's a congenital problem. Unfortunately one batch of fry from each male is insufficient to draw any conclusions.

I would tend to think however, that the cause of the problem is environmental rather than congenital.

Paul

[Eddie]

Actually increasing your TDS can help, not sure how much at this point.

An interesting fact, you will never see shortened gill plates in fry that have been raised in water with a high TDS or mineral content. Some gurus raise fry in RO waste for a reason. It ensures proper skeletal/tissue development. Fish absorb just as much nutrients from the water as they do their food.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=2115&page=17

[Second Hand Pat]

Actually increasing your TDS can help, not sure how much at this point.

An interesting fact, you will never see shortened gill plates in fry that have been raised in water with a high TDS or mineral content. Some gurus raise fry in RO waste for a reason. It ensures proper skeletal/tissue development. Fish absorb just as much nutrients from the water as they do their food.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=2115&page=17

Thanks Eddie, let's hope it does help but have my doubts Left them in the parents tank too long or should have raised the TDS after hatching or attachment.

[Eddie]

Thanks Eddie, let's hope it does help but have my doubts Left them in the parents tank too long or should have raised the TDS after hatching or attachment.

Yes, I generally start increasing the TDS gradually after hatch, using calcium and magnesium sulfate. Many just use RO waste as its loaded with minerals. I've seen it reversed at early stages. Its not over yet. Keep on going.

[nc0gnet0]

Yes, I generally start increasing the TDS gradually after hatch, using calcium and magnesium sulfate. Many just use RO waste as its loaded with minerals. I've seen it reversed at early stages. Its not over yet. Keep on going.

I concur to a point. I myself start slowly raising tds after hatch, but unlike some others, I think there is a point of dimishining returns. The threshold of sufficient mineral content in the water is reached fairly early, at which point adding more has little effect or advantage. It's just like you or I taking vitamins, one a day can be good for you, but taking three a day has little to no advantage over taking one a day.

Pat was batch B was raised in the same tank as batch A, can I ask did you feed alot of BBS to Batch A in that tank? How well was it cleaned? Thinking there might be (or was) a bacterial problem when the fry were extremly young.

Rick

[Second Hand Pat]

Rick, yes, both batches raised in the same tank but the TDS and GH were different. Batch A was 140 TDS and ~120 GH or so. Batch B TDS was 40 and GH between 40 to 80 best guess. Both batches feed BBS and FDBWs.

[Eddie]

Rick, yes, both batches raised in the same tank but the TDS and GH were different. Batch A was 140 TDS and ~120 GH or so. Batch B TDS was 40 and GH between 40 to 80 best guess. Both batches feed BBS and FDBWs.

Definitely appears to be a lack of mineral content in the water then.