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Thread: Vintage Strain Development

  1. #91
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Strain Development

    Yes Rick, your post from yesterday had me thinking and yes, you pretty much nailed it on the head. I also reviewed the first post on this thread (and remember this thread is already six months old) and I stated that in the first post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Second Hand Pat View Post
    One of the sponsors approached me a while back about the possibility of recreating one of the vintage US strains. Apparently the US was known once upon a time for having a palette of it's own strains. Many which retained some of their wild characteristics.

    The recent spawning of my wild Tefe's has placed me in a unique situation to try and recreate the vintage RSG which apparently looked like a nicely spotted royal Tefe.

    While it has been my goal to breed my wilds. Developing a strain places those goals at a whole new level with a multiple year commitment, dedicated tanks and totally different way of looking at my fish.

  2. #92
    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Strain Development

    Yes Rick, your post from yesterday had me thinking and yes, you pretty much nailed it on the head.
    Ok then that makes me a little less confused. I am having a hard time putting into words what I am trying to ask/get across here, and I don't mean to sound condescending or sarcastic, I actually like the project as a whole.

    Maybe I am reading things wrong, but there seems to be a feeling that wilds somehow differ from domestics genetically, and that is really not the case(barring the mutations). These wild "charasteristics" are more a product of environment, not of genetics, and that is the point I was trying to get across. Much like that of a brown city squirrel, vs a brown country squirrel if you will, genetically identical, but have been subjected to a different environment and thus behave much differently over time and generations.

    To further explain look at this:

    A...................B...................C

    (A) represents your wilds, (B) can represent your ultimate goal, while (C) represents a current domestic discus we have today. For all intensive purposes, B (your goal) was one of the first domestics developed. Now you can start at (A) and work forwards towards achieving (B) (as was first done) or you could also start at (C) and work backwards to achieve (B). For sake of argument lets say we do both and achieve identical (B's). Chances are both fish are going to be nearly identical genetically, as to how much of the "wild charasteristics" are left would more be a product of environmental concerns then that of genetics. At least that is my understanding, I would be curious to see Rod's opionion on this.

    Rick
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  3. #93
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Strain Development

    I do get what you are saying Rick. When I mentioned "muddy genetics" with domestics it was inline with many domestics do not breed true and we as consumers do not always know what goes into the genetics of a particular domestic strain. It is not my intent to knock domestics only that starting at A I feel the genetic base is a bit more stable. Since I am already a wilds keeper for me it is more fun to start at A since I already have the stock and seem to have a knack for breeding the silly things.

    Rick, did you know that Rod is/was also breeding wild greens. Believe he is in the 4th generation and to my knowledge has not breed any domestics into his line. He also mentioned that the fish themselves change over the generations and become more creamy. Guess I should ask for pictures.
    Last edited by Second Hand Pat; 02-18-2013 at 12:48 PM. Reason: spelling

  4. #94
    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Strain Development

    I just what you are saying Rick.
    ?


    When I mentioned "muddy genetics" with domestics it was inline with many domestics do not breed true and we as cosumers do not always know what goes into the genetics of a particular domestic strain.
    Yes and no, depends on the strain, but I understand what your saying. It is this "unstable" quality that makes it easier to seperate a charasteristic IMO however.

    It is not my intent to knock domestics only that starting at A I feel the genetic base is a bit more stable.
    I did not take it that way at all. You know what would be an interesting experiment ( I am sure it has been done)? Is to take a clutch of eggs from a wild pair and have them raised by a pair of domestics and see if they behaved more like domestics than wilds when they achieved maturity.

    It would be equally fascinating to have two groups of people each working towards your objective, but starting at different ends of the spectrum and compare results.

    Rick
    Ex-President-North American Discus Association-NADA
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  5. #95
    Registered Member Trier20's Avatar
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    Default Vintage Strain Development

    Quote Originally Posted by nc0gnet0 View Post
    ?




    Yes and no, depends on the strain, but I understand what your saying. It is this "unstable" quality that makes it easier to seperate a charasteristic IMO however.



    I did not take it that way at all. You know what would be an interesting experiment ( I am sure it has been done)? Is to take a clutch of eggs from a wild pair and have them raised by a pair of domestics and see if they behaved more like domestics than wilds when they achieved maturity.

    It would be equally fascinating to have two groups of people each working towards your objective, but starting at different ends of the spectrum and compare results.

    Rick
    So are you talking about starting with two domestic greens of one wild and one domestic?
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  6. #96
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Strain Development

    I do get what you are saying Rick.
    Better lol

    I did not take it that way at all. You know what would be an interesting experiment ( I am sure it has been done)? Is to take a clutch of eggs from a wild pair and have them raised by a pair of domestics and see if they behaved more like domestics than wilds when they achieved maturity.
    Rick, the biggest difference between wilds and domestics from what I can tell is getting the wild female to spawn. Wild males are well, males Also I am not sure if there are any real "behavioral" differences. A better comparison is domestics to TR Wild F1s IMO.

    I did not take it that way at all. You know what would be an interesting experiment ( I am sure it has been done)? Is to take a clutch of eggs from a wild pair and have them raised by a pair of domestics and see if they behaved more like domestics than wilds when they achieved maturity.
    Now doing this would make this a true experiment (mostly, a lot of variables to make it repeatable.) I would be most curious as to the domestics selected? Would also need to agree on a definition of "wild characteristics" or final look if you will.

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