Withdrawn - First attempt at breeding Discus - Log

[shawnhu]

Hi Pat,

The source of the ammonia is obviously from biomass deteriorating and from the fish excrements. Perhaps your question is, why was the ammonia at 4 ppm instead of the normal 0 ppm in a cycled tank? The answer to that question lies with the pH. As Big-Ken has pointed out, the nitrification cycle is haulted once the pH level drops below 6.2. This is not to mean that the bacteria responsible for the cycle are dead.

HTH,

[jimg]

I would think the ammonia is from the filter being too small as well as small amount of surface areas in the tank and filter. not enough area to colonize enough bacteria to absorb what the food and fish are putting out. that's why you have ammonia and nitrate at the same time.

[strawberryblonde]

Here's an excerpt from a biology paper on nitrifying bacteria.

"The optimum pH range for Nitrosomonas is between 7.8-8.0.

The optimum pH range for Nitrobacter is between 7.3-7.5

Nitrobacter will grow more slowly at the high pH levels typical of marine aquaria and preferred by African Rift Lake Cichlids. Initial high nitrite concentrations may exist. At pH levels below 7.0, Nitrosomonas will grow more slowly and increases in ammonia may become evident. Nitrosomonas growth is inhibited at a pH of 6.5. All nitrification is inhibited if the pH drops below 6.0. Care must be taken to monitor ammonia if the pH begins to drop close to 6.5. At this pH almost all of the ammonia present in the water will be in the mildly toxic, ionized NH3+ state."

Note that the word used is inhibited at a pH lower than 6.0. Though it could be interpreted as meaning that bacterial action comes to a full stop below 6.0, I think it's more likely that it means that growth and the action of the bacteria in oxidizing ammonia/nitrite is retarded.

I'm basing that on the fact that I've used bio-media for BB in tanks where my pH was naturally just below 6.0 (5.8 - 6.0, never above that) and with plenty of aeration as well as twice weekly water changes, I never had any ammonia in my water. The main tank back then was a community tank with no plants and a wide variety of fish. Oh wait, I should back up and say that I DID actually experience ammonia spikes on a few occasions, but they were directly attributable to either a) Long vacations and too much food being fed by my fish sitter and b) hospitalization for 3 weeks so my tanks didn't get their normal water changes...got home to filthy tanks and ammonia spikes. Had to clean filters (resulted in more bacteria die off doggone it) and do water changes every other day for a month in order to get ammonia and nitrites back to zero.

So I guess what I'm saying is that if it was me, I'd be concerned that I was constantly registering ammonia at 4ppm in my tanks with a pH of 6.0. Even though the ammonia is less toxic, it's still harmful over long periods of time in high amounts.

[jimg]

I agree it may slow, but it is still there working. my altum and heckle tank I have the ph now at 4.88 and with 2 - 30-40% weekly wc's no ammonia and have average of 10 on nitrate. so the nitrification process still works. I have taken filter material out of that tank and cycled ph 7.0 water with no setbacks.
I believe problems with nitrification start when tanks and filters are constantly and needlessly cleaned too much.

[Jdizon20]

Well I just started keeping discus myself and i know that a year from now if I followed everyones advice here and went bare bottom, I would be preaching to everyone that BB method works, no doubt based on that experience. But because I would have never tried it any other way, I wouldnt discourage other people to try a different way. I know that lots of hobbyist that are really into breeding/showing discus have done it BB and we all know it works. I know that If follow their method, the greater probability i will achieve what they achieved. Of course that assumes that everyone wants to achieve the same thing. I read that in the UK people raise their discus in planted tanks, Stendker website has different standards for stocking, water changes etc. We know that Chad Hughes was able to successfully raise discus in a planted tank. So in the end, it sounds like there are many ways to enjoy the hobby. While one method might be superior for showing/breeding/improving the quality of discus, I refuse to believe any other methods are doomed to "failure". If my discus grow up to be less than perfect, I would be perfectly OK with it as long as I enjoyed and learned from the experience. So I say: live and let live...knowledge and wisdom are always welcome and appreciated but so should experimentation and discovery.

[shawnhu]

Many good posts have been made. I appreciate all of them.

The current ammonia level is between .25 and .5 at a ph of 6 to 6.2.

Current water level is at 7 gallons, and a daily 1/4 gallon water change.

Feedings consist of terabits for mom and frozen BBS for the babies. Today, I'm confident that they are eating the BBS.

[pastry]

Orange Crush... nice!!! Looks like lately more and more want to figure out new ways of improving the growth of discus in planted tanks. More importantly though, it looks like more on here are letting people take a try, whether they approve of it or not, without jumping on them. That just helps open up communication more. On another thread, someone else suggested looking further into algae scrubbers. Just started looking at that today and looks like a great idea (I think it was Pickled-Herring... great name).

[Orange Crush]

....it looks like more on here are letting people take a try, whether they approve of it or not....

"letting"? Oh wait I forgot, we used to have the SD police come to everyone's home and make sure that they were following orders. lol

[pastry]

you know what i mean, smart a...

[Orange Crush]

you know what i mean, smart a...

[Orange Crush]

In all seriousness though there is a reason why so many people who have been in the hobby for a long time speak up when someone tries to raise/care for discus differently then recommended. As an example, let's say someone tries to raise fry in water with 4 ppm ammonia (not picking on you shawnhu, just using this thread as an example) and they start out saying how it can work and that it has so far. Great! but what happens if they do not follow up with the fact that they failed? New people join the forum, see this thread and think "oh, it's no big deal that I have ammonia in my water", next thing you know they are posting in the disease section and/or their fish die. They just spent a lot of money buying these fish and they thought they were following accurate info. Now they think discus are impossible to keep or that SD is a crappy forum. Not to mention they are out a bunch of money.
Most of the time people here are unwilling to admit they failed when they do something that people here spoke out against instead, they just disapear from this forum or give no updates. Now bad info is out there.

[Jdizon20]

I see your point OC and I understand the method to the madness. Nevertheless, I think that approach caters to people who would actually act on limited information (not a smart move). Normal people doing research and doing their homework are left reading between the lines and feel turned off with the constant lectures. I would think the better approach, would be to report those types of threads to the Forum administrators to be considered for deletion/seek follow up or updates. This way, the forum caters up instead of down, misinformation is deleted and conversations are elevated. Again this is just my opinion, my perceptions. For the record, it really doesnt bother me that much..im just voicing out my impressions since I saw similar sentiment on this thread. The forum is serving me well so far, its free and I get really good advice and tons of information. I was able to connect with great discus sponsors with great quality discus!
Sorry Shawn for hijacking your Breeding log with this off topic sharing of opinions.

[nc0gnet0]

"The optimum pH range for Nitrosomonas is between 7.8-8.0.

The optimum pH range for Nitrobacter is between 7.3-7.5

I have read somewhere that these two bacteria may/are not the only two capable of converting ammonia to nitrite to nitrate.

[strawberryblonde]

Very true Rick, but they are the two that populate most tanks and multiply the fastest from what I've read.

I hope my point was clear when I quoted that paragraph. I was trying to point out that though the bacterial action and multiplication is decreased, or retarded, as pH dips below 6.0, it is in fact still present, still providing benefit, etc. It's just slowed tremendously and therefore, people with pH below 6.0 need to keep a sharp eye on ammonia in the the tank (and nitrites). The ammonia that they'll have in the tank is less toxic, but still an issue and needs to be dealt with promptly for the sake of the fish.

I found that twice weekly water changes and watching how much I fed worked to control ammonia in my low pH tanks. Then again, I was raising community fish and not discus! I'm pretty sure discus are gonna require more food and more water changes. =)

[strawberryblonde]

Very true Rick, but they are the two that populate most tanks and multiply the fastest from what I've read.

I hope my point was clear when I quoted that paragraph. I was trying to point out that though the bacterial action and multiplication is decreased, or retarded, as pH dips below 6.0, it is in fact still present, still providing benefit, etc. It's just slowed tremendously and therefore, people with pH below 6.0 need to keep a sharp eye on ammonia in the the tank (and nitrites). The ammonia that they'll have in the tank is less toxic, but still an issue and needs to be dealt with promptly for the sake of the fish.

I found that twice weekly water changes and watching how much I fed worked to control ammonia in my low pH tanks. Then again, I was raising community fish and not discus! I'm pretty sure discus are gonna require more food and more water changes. =)