Growing out in planted tank

[pcsb23]

User stunted has been banned, previously banned user signed on with new email and straight away trolling as previous - some people will never learn!

[Skip]

User stunted has been banned, previously banned user signed on with new email and straight away trolling as previous - some people will never learn!

thanks paul

ps..
you can't fix stupid

[pastry]

Thanks Paul and thanks for calming me down through PM. Never would I thought there would be "trollers" on a discus sight. Hopefully people interested in posting advice aren't distracted by the drama. If anything I can make this thread "150 gallon aquarium with 8 young discus raised to at least 5-5.5 inches - experiment" or something along those lines.

I think more people would get involved with discus if you could raise them to a certain "acceptable" (speculation, of course) size in a planted tank but need to try to figure out more ways. Again, strong believer in bare bottom tanks better for growing but I think more people would get involved in keeping discus if it was possible to raise them to at least 5 inches (6 would be better) in a planted tank. Not breeding but just keeping one or two tanks. I think a that would help out the actual breeders as well. A result of that could be argued that quality discus stock would diminish but someone else could argue that it would either stay the same or get better (help those guys out that are doing it right stay in business!). Definitely a "double-edged sword"-topic.

kalel (or anyone): I've been reading up on refugiums briefly but are there any suggestions on setting one up without drilling into the main tank? I just got the 150 back up and running after having my floors re-done and just don't see it being feasible to take it down again to drill. Any links you/data you can point me towards? I really like that idea. I use a canister filter right now supplemented with an air stone. I think adding a refugium would be interesting.

anyone: would adding iron to the tank help with growth? (besides for the plants) I ask because a long time ago I had a buddy with only a 20 gallon (long) take a discus from a dealer that was stunted and within a few months it went from 4 inches to 6+ inches. he had that 20 overstocked with rams, tetras, etc and all of them were extremely large for what they were. he had well water with a high amount of iron in it. I had given him an Amazon Sword and that thing was growing out of every hole in the canopy... and he only changed the water once a week at about 30%. that breaks EVERY rule of keeping any kind of fish. Soooo... besides him having the fountain of youth for a well, do you think iron was the main contributor to the freakish growth he had?

[pcsb23]

Thanks Paul and thanks for calming me down through PM. Never would I thought there would be "trollers" on a discus sight. ...

No probs and yep we get plenty of trolls

In the UK many more people keep their discus in decorated tanks - I say decorated as it ranges from a bit of wood and sand through to full blown high tech planted. I still run a decorated tank but at the moment it has my altums in it and not discus. Perhaps when the new fish room is finished I will set another discus display tank up.

I have grown out discus in a high tech planted tank before and with reasonable result too. Not meaning self praise but I do know what I'm doing with plants and discus (though I am sure some would argue with me over that ). No doubt that to optimise the discus growth it is a lot more work than a bare tank, anyone who says different probably doesn't know what optimum growth is.

Anything that helps to maintain or improve water quality has to be worth considering, refugiums when done correctly can do just that. Water quality is very difficult to define btw, some people intuitively get it and many don't! But it is perhaps more important than just about any other aspect of discus keeping. Discus really only need lots and lots of clean water, adequate decent quality food and as stress free an environment as we can give them. How you provide those three key pieces is what can make this hobby of ours fun as well as challenging.

Going back to Chad's challenge fish, he used a lot of technology as well as skill to maintain hos water quality and he also maintained an appropriate stocking level for his regimen. The higher your stocking level, the less wriggle room there is and the quicker quality will deteriorate and the faster the fish will suffer! Pretty obvious really but sometime we don't see the obvious!

Specifically to deal with iron - the short answer is no, it is not a contributor to growth. On the contrary iron is toxic to fish, levels above 0.5ppm are to be avoided for long durations.

[pastry]

okay, now that's what I'm talking about! Thanks Paul! I guess now all I have to do is drive back up to Virginia to where I first started off with discus, break into my buddy's old house, steal some of that well water, and figure out what the heck was in it!

In reality though, yep, I've always kept it simple with discus in terms of not over thinking it (as much freshwater as I can provide them, eliminate the bad stuff with only a product or two, feed them well, and keep them happy), but I guess I'm now trying to think of maybe one or two more things I can do that may help (hope that makes sense... not sure; i.e.- possibly add a refugium?). I've also pm'ed Chad to see if he's still around. Hope he still frequents the site. Thanks guys & gals. --pastry (a.k.a-struedel, donut, bear claw... etc)

[ashtricks]

kalel (or anyone): I've been reading up on refugiums briefly but are there any suggestions on setting one up without drilling into the main tank? I just got the 150 back up and running after having my floors re-done and just don't see it being feasible to take it down again to drill. Any links you/data you can point me towards? I really like that idea. I use a canister filter right now supplemented with an air stone. I think adding a refugium would be interesting.

I guess only way without drilling the tank is to use an overflow box/DIY overflow. There are multiple options available depending on what you want to spend. The main purpose of a refugium (for freshwater) is to increase the overall volume of water, thus making it easier to maintain stability and a heavily planted refugium helps reducing the biload (nitrates) from the water column. Also, a refugium allows you to put all the heaters, air stones, uv sterilizers out of the display tank. The wet-pet friends link uses miracle mud in the refugium. I have been researching its feasibility and I have not found any conclusive evidence to use i for freshwater setups. Instead of that, I think using mud + root tabs (in the refugium) would be a cheaper option.
Experienced folks on SD correct me if I am wrong. I am still learning.

[pastry]

ash - one big thing caught my eye that I didn't think of and that's you mentioning an increase of water volume. heck, that alone could be a pretty inexpensive thing to someone with my limitations on not being a allowed an additional or larger tank in the house (i could hide it within the stand underneath). it's a bonus too to hide the heaters & airstone there but never thought about that. i'd need a pump with an impeller and then an additional pump to push water back into the tank. even if not a huge rate of gallons per hour then it'd be an advantage as long as i kept my canister going as well. i'm sure there are things out there you can buy to do this so i'm probably a little more on the oblivious to what's out there. i originally wanted to do a sump but some LFS (who I somewhat trust... not fully though) said that a canister was better for me if I had plants and no CO2 setup. so i guess what i'm thinking is that i'd could just stay with the canister and install just a tub i could fit in the cabinet to hold more water and cycle in and out of the tank so that there is more volume. if i wanted to later than i could do more with that tub (convert into a refugium) but in the meantime it would be additional gallons of water added to my tank; correct?

[ashtricks]

I don't think you would need a pump with an impeller. Getting water down to the refugium would be the job of an overflow box. In any case, two different pumps for inlet and outlet would be a recipe for disaster if there is some mismatch. It is easier to have an overflow rated usually for double the flow of the pump that brings the water up from the refugium.
Putting a tub for additional water volume would help surely. Just remember that you reinforce the tub with some brace in the middle just like any rimmed tank would have. So that over time the tub does not warp. I would not use the canister to take in water from the display tank. I would put it in the sump. So basically the water flow would be:
Display tank --> Overflow box --> Sump --> Canister --> Sump --> Display tank (via a mag drive submersible pump)
DIY overflow using PVC can be done for a few bucks.
HTH

[pastry]

gotcha. thanks for the save. that's why i usually have to do experiments outside before bringing into the house

[strawberryblonde]

Actually, if you are going to switch to a sump it's easier to just use the bio-media from the canister in order to seed the sump, and then put the canister filter away in a closet for a rainy day. =)

My sump was SUPER simple. I used a 55 gallon tank that I filled to the 40 gallon mark. You could check craigslist for a much smaller, cheap used tank. So long as it's easy to clean and holds water, you're good to go.

I then ordered Poret Foam. I bought more than I needed and I've used it for other things. All you actually need is 3 pieces. One coarse one to strain the major bits out, then 2 finer ones for the beneficial bacteria. You just divide the tank into thirds with them, put the pump and heater at one end, the overflow hoses at the other end (the one closest to the coarse poret foam), fill with water and you're done. The foam is all you need, no bio-balls or ceramic rings. You can put your canister media into the center section so that it seeds your poret foam. You can also add plants (I used potted ones), uv filters (not for me), spare hydro sponge filters, etc.

[ashtricks]

Actually, if you are going to switch to a sump it's easier to just use the bio-media from the canister in order to seed the sump, and then put the canister filter away in a closet for a rainy day. =)

My sump was SUPER simple. I used a 55 gallon tank that I filled to the 40 gallon mark. You could check craigslist for a much smaller, cheap used tank. So long as it's easy to clean and holds water, you're good to go.

I then ordered Poret Foam. I bought more than I needed and I've used it for other things. All you actually need is 3 pieces. One coarse one to strain the major bits out, then 2 finer ones for the beneficial bacteria. You just divide the tank into thirds with them, put the pump and heater at one end, the overflow hoses at the other end (the one closest to the coarse poret foam), fill with water and you're done. The foam is all you need, no bio-balls or ceramic rings. You can put your canister media into the center section so that it seeds your poret foam. You can also add plants (I used potted ones), uv filters (not for me), spare hydro sponge filters, etc.

+1 !

[Kal-El]

I don't think you would need a pump with an impeller. Getting water down to the refugium would be the job of an overflow box. In any case, two different pumps for inlet and outlet would be a recipe for disaster if there is some mismatch. It is easier to have an overflow rated usually for double the flow of the pump that brings the water up from the refugium.
Putting a tub for additional water volume would help surely. Just remember that you reinforce the tub with some brace in the middle just like any rimmed tank would have. So that over time the tub does not warp. I would not use the canister to take in water from the display tank. I would put it in the sump. So basically the water flow would be:
Display tank --> Overflow box --> Sump --> Canister --> Sump --> Display tank (via a mag drive submersible pump)
DIY overflow using PVC can be done for a few bucks.
HTH

Well said you. You cover everything i would have said. I would go with the DIY overflow using PVC if you want to save money. Below is the link to a youtube video from the king of DIY on how create your own PVC overflow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65yVr7DiDls

[pastry]

wow, tons of great info. kalel & ash, checked out the video and super easy. that's the perfect video for showing me exactly what to do (keeps is "barney style"; in words of a jarhead that means it breaks it down so that a 5 year old could follow that) hopefully i can squeeze more than a 10 gallon tank underneath my cabinet. wish i would've gotten a cabinet with wider doors OR had thought about starting this thread while i had my tank broken down. i'll figure something out though. meanwhile, do i put a cover on the sump? and will the moisture that seeps out weaken my cabinet/stand since it's wood? and besides adding more water volume than a canister (as long as it of course IS more volume) what is the benefit of a sump over a canister? i just remember some guy at a LFS (who's usually pretty knowledgeable on his water chemistry) tell me that a canister without a CO2 set up would be better for me than setting up a sump for a planted tank.

strawberry blonde, i think your info is spot on. question though is would a sump be louder than my fluval canister? i have to hand it to fluval, that puppy is so quiet that i have to make sure it's on now and then! i'm assuming that it depends on a pump and if my assumption is right then is there a pump that you'd recommend?

[pastry]

geez, after reading "Mxx" similar thread from a year and half ago (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ht=growing+out ) i'm totally wondering the feasibility of growing out the small guys. some say start smaller and some bigger (size/age of discus). obviously the larger would be favored in a planted tank but that would negate the entire challenge of actually raising specimens. i'm confident in the 3-3.5" virgin reds i just got from kenny (through eric) but hope i don't do a number on the smaller ones i got from harry marsh. may need to raise hardness a bit but hate playing games with water that's worked in the past. 30 ppm GH, 40 ppm KH, 6.5 pH. worked for keeping my adults happy, breeding, and with hatchlings/free swimmers/(tetra bait; I know that's awful) but thinking it's not going to do much for growing young discus. thoughts? i hate to mess with "if it's not broken, don't fix it", but could I add a tiny bit of crushed coral at a time to raise the hardness? i'm actually timid to go beyond 7.0 pH due to saying that I may have kept discus for a long time but I haven't kept discus above neutral before. (probably because I still have all my old books around by Axelrod, Schmidt-Focke, etc). On a "squirrel" note, I wrote Herbert Axelrod when I was in middle school and never thought I'd hear back from him and he actually wrote me an encouraging letter back. I might've been the only 13-14 year old to ever think that was awesome (and still think that was awesome... if you read about his life, he's fascinatingly crazy,... especially after some dealings with expensive violins). okay, cutting myself off for tonight. had a few cocktails while watching the Olympics and enjoying quiet time while my son's asleep and the wife is out at a bachelorette party. please focus on the first part of this post rather than the later

[ashtricks]

would a sump be louder than my fluval canister?

There are two main components that have a potential to be loud: The overflow (its gurgling sound): it can be minimized by a careful design and build. and the return pump: There are silent pumps available like mag drives. Someone more experienced would be able to give a better answer. And other splashing noise can be reduced by good plumbing.

what is the benefit of a sump over a canister?

My take on advantage (other than the cost) of a sump over a canister would only be if there are fast growing plants in the sump to suck up all the nitrates. Some times aquascaping might not give you the freedom to put fast growing plants in the display tank. Plus, the light on the refugium can run 24x7. I think you can make a sump that does everything a canister can do, but you cant make a canister do what a sump can
The advantage of a canister is... Canister is plug and play (minus the cycling of the filter). Sump needs more effort to get everything correct. The plumbing, the filtration, plant beds, noise.