Curipera Wildcaught Spawn

[Tomsky]

Hi,

tomorrow I'll fly to Chile, I took some last photos before:

02-11-2005

7 weeks

The biggest have more than 5cm size.


This week i almost had a dead. During water change one jumped out of the tank. I realized it immediately and put him back to the tank. He survived...


During the next 3 1/2 weeks I will be in Chile for mountaineering. My girlfriend will take care for the fishes, but photos I cannot actualize :-(


Tomsky

[Dave C]

All I could say is I've seen some Curipera that turn very red (almost blood red), more so than the Santarem which is more of a deep brownish/red. Both have the "eye-loop" but I think it's more fixed in the Curipera.

I think Oliver is the only first hand source for the true Curipera in North America, but his partners (or associates) also sell them in Europe (Germany?) from the same collection period. Dennis once told me the name Curipera was named after a "region". I can't remember for what reason they were the "reddest" of all the wilds, but like others it can be enhanced by color feeding...

I recall the wild Santarems on Mike Wells site. They were about as red as I've ever seen this type of Discus. He got those from Webber as well. Of course the assumption is that Mike colorfed them to get them that red. I also recall a discussion between Webber & Oliver on this forum (or some other Discus forum, don't remember which) where they were debating the existence of Curipera & the associated Discus. I think Curipera refers to a tribe of natives in the area. But I also recall seeing a photo of some elevated banks with a small pool within and hearing that that was Lake Curipera. I wish I knew where that link was. But from every map I can find and every search I've tried there is no indication that a region, river, lake, stream is named Curipera. The only source of information about the existence of anything named Curipera is from Oliver. That doesn't mean I don't believe it to exist, but it does raise doubts about it. It could be that Curipera Discus are simply nice red Santarems. That wouldn't affect their beauty or value in my eyes but it does make the naming a bit suspect.

[jeep]

I remember that discussion now. I believe it was here but the photos will be long gone. Yes the Sants are VERY close. Mine are domestic, but when I look at a Curipera up close, they are virually the same except the Curipera is slightly more red based (without color feed).

If I remember correctly, the photograph I saw of the lake showed it to be actually very small. I think Dave suggested that it was flooded at certain times of the year, and when the water receeded it left a small amount of isolated discus and piranhas. The argument on one side was that the lake had possibly a red tint (tannins?) and was completely isolated, and therefore the discus were in-bred and achieved the color through evolution. The other side of the argument was that total isolation was impossible because the gene pool would be too small to maintain a healthy population (let alone harvesting), and that the lake was periodically flooded and allowed other fish to populate the lake. The problem with that is why would there be no other species unless the Sant is the only species in the entire region

[Spices]

I remember that. That was a long 6 page or more battle of war between Dave Webber, Oliver showing the many photos of many fine Curipera fish from Mary, Oliver, Dave Webber, and I think Tristan (sp?) of Canada. Since that time, I've been searching and asking about the area named Curipera and even the quoted Indian tribe called such and no one seems to know what, who and where; interestingly enough the folks I've asked these questions to are from Brazil.

Like you said, Brian & Dave C, they're still wonderful discus.

P.S. I'm lost without them. It would be great if Tomsky would import them for us folks in USA.

[jim_shedden]

absolutely a great thread..................thanks

jim

[DavidWong]

good luck to your trip to Chili........

do keep us updated the minute you are back in 3 1/2 weeks time.

i am still very keen to get some from you in the future if i can afford the price.

[Tony_S]

Here's the thread in question...some heavy readin' for ya....
Its kind of tough to follow now that the quotes arent highlighted anymore...but its worth the trouble....Like Cary said, some good CHIT!!

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=28702

Tony

[Spices]

LOL... That's some funny chit-chat, TonyS.

In any event those Wild "Curiperas" sure do intrigue us all.

*Angie*

[bryalk1]

congratulations, beautiful fish and fry
bryant

[Cosmo]

Tomsky...

Awesome achievement, and beautiful pics and fry

Jim

[wildthing]

Nice pics, it will be interesting to follow their progress as they mature and color up.

'Curipera' comes from the tribe name 'Cuipuia'.
the lake shown in pics as I recall was , according to the german guy who posted them, 1k long and 100 meters wide with 10' banks. It looked like an oxbow lake. The average flood height in that ( Alenquer) region is 35'-45' with extra high floods every 10 or so years according to ElNino/La Nina and deforestation (smithsonian ) Average rain season rainfall is about 15'. Smaller rivers often change their courses to create or remove that kind of lake because of the poor nature of the soil there and the incredible volumes of water passing over as floods drain.
It makes no sense to imagine this is cut off from the rest of the region or that its discus population is isolated long enough for speciation. It almost certainly recieves new fish each season as they move into deeper channels as floods recede.
Domestics, all derived from wilds, have been selectively bred for 50 plus years without managing to create a new species or even sub-species.
No doubt there were some very nice Discus found there, and Oliver knows how to market a fish, but they were not any new variety, just a new name.
From many of the pictures of them I have seen they were also a mix of blues and browns all showing red characteristics and differing degrees of striations, some with and some without red tones in the fins or 'spectacles' some with a pronounced 5th bar, others without etc.

This is a good link to help understand Allopatric speciation

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ult...peciation.html

[jesse]

Wonderful young fish!
You are a great breeder!
Hope you have a wonderful trip to Chile.

A few questions:
You use a great sand bottom..
Here is the theory I would like to verify:
And with a sand bed, we have anaerobic bateria which live in it. These bacteria normally transform nitrate into nitrogen and close the nitrogen cycle.

What I would like to know is:
1- how often do you make water changes ?
2- Have you a very low nitrate level in your tank even after 1 week or more without changing the water ? How much nitrate do you have ?

thanks,
Jess

[raglanroad]

What could I add to the comments? Lots !! Got ten pages to rave on about it? Anway, I think the idea of your doing a write-up is super. You already have the pics so well done. Congatulations, to a master of fishkeeping.
Dave

[raglanroad]

I contacted the exotic imports today, and their answer about a different question also indicates that these fish come from Oliver Lucanus, which he had earlier, $300, 6 @ $250.http://www.pricenetwork.ca/forum/sho...58pagenumber=1
It might be of interest regarding species ID, that other fish sold are under common names, or names that people will recognise. They may have no relation to how Oliver thinks they are scientifically named. Further, since the scientists disagree on many subjects, hobbyists and even collectors, have a difficult time, and so sometimes a common name may be less wrong, as it has less accuracy implied.
The angelfish sold as "teardrop Dumerilii" Manaquiri, I think Oliver regards as Scalare. Whereas taxonomists call it Leopoldi now. Three species named, yet only one fish.And Dumerilii is not used anymore, being called not valid.This may help you about how Oliver uses these names. The species is no longer a valid name, yet it is on the stock list. The stock list itself would help you understand his usage, as almost every item has a descriptive part in the name, such as Scalare " Caqueta", and so on. I love these descriptions, as they are helping track down angel collection locations .
No problem, really. Sometimes people want others to know what they mean, by using the commonest usage name. Others want to use scientifically correct names.If you can figure out what the scientists say this week.

[raglanroad]

Just read the most interesting thread mentioned , with Oliver, and all you SimplyDiscus fans. Forget systematics for classifying, the fish, I need it to classify the arguments! As a no-nothing on Discus, It intrigues me when I compare the arguments regarding Angels and Tropheus. My conclusion is
this: even a beginner can see the valuable info given by each person, from the hobbyist level to collector, to wild fish breeder. Equally easy to see, is the contradictions each person has made in different ways.
Just as an example, why is Dumerilii mentioned so many times, when it not a valid name? I can understand if the person does not agree with the new classification that most accept. However, if the person is intending to refer to the scientists, then why not be in line with the views that one follows?
I think all attempts at DNA-based resolution of the problems will be a frustrating experience for all, as some evidence shows that the mitochondrial DNA methods have also been over-estimated, probably. Arctic Charr studies and some others have thrown a monkey wrench into the works. (static markers are now in question). Sorry for layman's lingo.
So , it almost boils down to a case of "I'll see it when I believe it"
And I always remember that the more knowledge I gather, the closer I have to stick to "square one"- nice fish, Tomsky!!
I did love the wit shown by all, and again, almost each post had real meaning and information.
Now I will have classify each statement and cross-reference them. Or at least do a water change. And I had to do a an edit-post change real quick, too! haha, better to write when I'm awake. Dumerilii is now considered a synonym of Leopoldi.