Introducing astaxanthin without beefheart... how?

[scolley]

IMO the only thing that is going to give your fish the red you want is carophyll pink.

Kacey - I'd never heard of carophyll pink until your post. Thanks.

And YES, there is indeed tons of information out there on it. But IMO the biggest problem is not the lack of discus specific info... but rather the apparently WIDE gulf of opinion of whether it's harmless, healthy, or life threatening for discus.

I'm definitely not willing to hurt my fish to be nice eye-candy for me or my wife. But at the same time, I can't say that using carophlyll pink is going to hurt them. But because the jury seems to be out, I'm going to stay away. That is until and unless I see compelling evidence that it does not hurt fish. But thanks for pointing that out. It may well be that without resorting to that, that my fish will never rise above "orange". Bummer.

I feed Hikari Discus Bio-Gold and my RGD get extremely red from it.

Thanks for the tip. It looks like that would go well into a auto feeder, so I might give that a shot. Thanks!

And BTW number1sixerfan, I DO appreciate the kind words on the tank. I don't know if it is really possible to be both proud and humble at the same time... but that is how I feel. I feel good about being able to mix discus with plants and come up with something that is usually attractive (and they DO look MUCH better in person). But that "usually" word keeps me humble. The fact is my tanks don't always look so great. And it will only be after I learn a LOT more will i be able to keep them looking good all the time, and avoid all the darned newbie pot-holes I keep stepping into!

But thanks for the encouragement!



ON ANOTHER NOTE...

kaceyo's post above got me researching carophyll pink and it opened my eyes to a host of issues that I had never considered. My ignorance in this space is evidenced by my first post where I referred to "Naturose" as "Naturerose".

(How many of you guys saw that and chuckled, but were too kind to point it out? Thanks for being nice. Really. But if you see me being ignorant in the future, I'll consider it a kindness if you let me know. Really. I'm not into ignorant.)

Anyway... it appears that even Naturose is a problem in the wrong quantities. And I just mixed a bunch of slop up with it, smeared it on TCB, filled the feeder, and walked away fat, dumb, and happy. Well I woke up in the middle of the night last night with that realization. Not a happy thought. But I'm away on a biz trip and can't do anything about it for a couple days. I hope I'm not OD'ing fish in the interim.

Can anyone tell me the correct dosing ratio of Naturose, by weight, of Naturose to the supplemented food? I have no desire to cause my fish suffering for my desire to see RED.

Thanks in advance.

[kaceyo]

Hi Scolly,
I;ve never used carophyll pink either. But it is what they use to give the 3r2's there bright color. Of course the fish has to have the genetics to be able to utilize the color. There are definitly health issues with carophyll so it wouldn't be a good idea to experiment with it on your prize show fish.
I have never heard of any health risks associated with NatuRose though. It's a dried algea and has numurous health benefits and the only problems I've had with over using it are that the fish don't like the taste if too much is used and it will give hte fish an unatural look. I use 1 tsp/lb of beefheart and will start cutting back on the amount I feed adults to avoid the over colored look. I have never heard of feeding it straight with only oil to hold it together either. I think that's way too much, but not for health reasons.
HTH

Kacey

[dpt8]

Hey Steve, What did you end up feeding your fish ??? What's the menu look like ?? :9) David

[scolley]

Well David, after deciding the jury was out on carophyll pink, and after reviewing the aparent evidence that Naturose does a good a job as you can ask without carophyll pink, I dedided to use that.

I'm just mixing a little with water to make a paste, and mixing the paste with CTB (or whatever they've been re-named now). I'm uncertain on what ratio will not be damaging too my fish. I can certainly say I'm using very little - 1/8 TSP to 4 oz TCB. The fish love TCB, so this works great.

But I'm gonna try mixing in some Tetra Xtreme Color Granules, as was previously suggested. And I REALLY wish I could find some guidance on how much Naturose was too much, but that infomation seems to be hard to find.

They've been on this for a few weeks, and it's hard to say if it's made a difference. I suppose this is something that has to play out over the course of months if you are not OD'ing the stuff.

[kaceyo]

Hi Scolly,
Going by weight, 1/8tsp per 4oz of food is half the amount I feed my spotteds. I don't know if you could go any higher using TetraBits though since mixing it with pellets is a whole different ballgame. I wouldn't worry about using too much NatuRose. It is just an algea so your fish could probably eat it pure without damaging themselves. Actually, Ryan stated below that some people feed it with only enough oil to make it into a thick paste.
The carophylls are a different story. They are a synthetic version of astaxanthin and is much more concentrated so will damage the fish if overdosed.
It does take awhile for the results to be seen so be patient and keep us updated on how it works on you 3R2's.

Kacey

[lilim10]

Hikari Cichlid Gold has astaxanthin, but the pellets are large and they float. So, I soak them in water for a good 10 minutes and squeeze them gently between my fingers, and voila! They sink! (and by then they are soft enough for the discus to eat)

[limct]

You can soak your pellet in astaxanthin first before feeding to the discus.

[scolley]

Going by weight, 1/8tsp per 4oz of food is half the amount I feed my spotteds. I don't know if you could go any higher using TetraBits though since mixing it with pellets is a whole different ballgame.

Sounds like I'm OK then. Thanks. I'd rather play it conservative. Plus, that is only a ratio of NatuRose to food weight. It doesn't really say how much NatuRose is actually ingested by fish, and my fish's diet is heavy on TCB. So understand the lack of concern about this particular product - and it's aparent safety. But it sounds like in in the ballpark for ratios. Thanks!

[scolley]

Ok, it's been a little while. My 3R2's are definitely orange. Not red. Orange. And they get a daily dose of TCB with Naturose. But I have one that does not like the TCB (which is in itself a problem that I'll have to address, as it's not getting enough food). But that fish is NOT orange, but a pale orangy white. So it appears that the feed is making the difference in the color. But so far, that color is not red.

I got them some MicroCrabs too, as reccomended here. But on the label it says "helps promote development of natural pink to orange-red colors of fish". What? Pink? Orange-red? Not Red? I don't want this. I'm looking for red.

Which leads me to an new "in search of red" problem...

I bought some 3R's from Kenny. Have them in my quarantine now, where they are eating like pigs. And a part of that food is the same TCB with Naturose, but I've more than doubled the dosage I previously mentioned in this thread. And now I'm starting to notice dark spots on their lips, as if their lips are "redding up" while the rest of their faces remain pale.

I've used the search function here to no avail, but I could swear I've read that this is a bad indicator... possibly that I'm providing too much artificial color enhancer. Is that true? And if so, does this imply permanent damage?

Thanks.

[kaceyo]

IMO adding double doses of astaxanthin probably won't do any physical damage to your fish, but it will give the fish an un-natural look and color areas that you don't want colored, like the lips. It won't turn orange into red either. You could try Carophyll color enhancers but you'd need to do some research to determin the proper dose as the only place I know of to get it is through bird supply houses where it's used to color the feathers of certain species of pet birds.
HTH,

Kacey

[scolley]

Thanks Kacey - looks like I need to cut back the Naturose!