Frozen Blackworms and your Discus

[Chicago Discus]

So what you are saying is that these people made the choice to feed your worms to their fish and that's where your responsibility ends.?


Absolutely not. Otherwise J.F. Flowers or us would not be in business.
Twist it, spin it any way.
You made a decision and that's good. We all get to.

Dan

Dan, I understand that this is very upsetting when some people on this forum attack your black worms but let them say what ever they want most (that actually have fish) buy your worms anyway. They just want to blame the worms if there fish get sick....its really simple if you are scared that the worms are making your fish sick then don't buy them but stop attacking a man thats trying to earn an honest living...........Josie

[ericatdallas]

LKSDiscus,

The poop on the right is Discus poop due to high metal concentrations. The poop on the left is Discus poop from 'clean' water. There is a chance that the poop on the right could be due to black worms having high metal concentrations, but I suspect, (speculation), that if some people are experiencing the problems while others are not, that there might be some higher metal concentrations due to winter? i.e. hot water pipes leeching more metals into the water supply. This might not be as big of an issue for people (larger biomass) and the fact that we typically don't swim in the water all day (just like a room full of carbon monoxide might be more hazardous if there is no ventilation).

Again, it's speculation... but if the poop on the right is what people see, then that might be a good place to start investigating.

That also doesn't explain why Prazi and different food source is helping, except maybe that the discus natural immune system would have helped anyway. It might also be how people are storing their worms... more toxins are stored in the blackworms. Again, didn't read the last ten pages, but have you guys discussed how you are storing BW?

[ericatdallas]

The above picture was trout, so actual impact may vary with discus as well. I think you can rule out it coming from blackworms though if people aren't seeing the same things with FDBW though, b/c in theory, if the source of metal contamination was from BW, it would impact all forms equally (more so with FD actually).

If it's local water supply/pipe and metal contamination though, it would explain why frozen (even though irradiated) is causing problems while BW isn't (b/c it's actually not).

Basically, while I'm not saying it's 100% proof positive that it's not BW, I'm saying there might be an overlooked source (or a few) other than BW causing the same issue.

[ericatdallas]

i'm watching my three wild kids right now so I can't do a good reference validation for you, but...

"The insides of a hot water heater contain metals that can, and do corrode. Some of the pipes in your home that are not made of PVC may have lead soldering. Hot water will dissolve metals, especially lead, much quicker than cold water will. Not to mention that over the years of daily use of drawing gallons throughout the day in cycles causes the water from the local utility, with all of it's impurities to collect and precipitate in the bottom of the hot water heater. This is a prime breeding ground for bacteria. Perhaps they cannot survive in an environment where the water is around 140°, but as soon as the water cools down enough due to a power outage or extended leave (if you turn off your water heater), all the necessary nutrients are there in an 80 gallon soup."

[jimg]

there is no difference in winter water than summer water other than colder water holds more 02 not to derail the thread but heard this many times lately.
If there is and I missed it I would like the one that started the winter water hype to give details

[ericatdallas]

well, I'm not saying it's 100% the winter water... so much as the heavy metal toxicity. This is definitely a possibility since some people claim they have an issue while others do not.

again, I'm not saying that black worms can NOT be the problem, but I'm questioning why people are so adamant that it has to be blackworms but unwilling to consider other possibilities. I provided a picture from research depicting real world impact of heavy metals on fecal matter. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that heavy metal contamination can be dangerous. It should also not be surprising that different areas have different concentrations.

I put forth a plausible theory (and I admit, there is speculation), that hotter water pipes can lead to higher than normal leeching during the winter. I admit, this does not necessarily answer all questions, but I am suggesting that people be open to ALL possibilities other than creating a scapegoat.

by the way, the reason I came back to this thread was I was doing research on why three of my shrimp tanks had mass die-offs. I realized last night that I had changed the presets on my valves to let more hot water in. I then did a quick google and people said this happens a lot in the winter due to copper leeching from hot water pipes.

I then did a scientific journal search (b/c I'm rarely satisfied with blogs being my sole source of info) and found that article regarding trout.

[jimg]

but we use hot water all year to get the tank water the same temp. water still comes into the house cold.

ps. I'm not referring to you as the one who started the winter water issue. I understand what your are saying.

[Second Hand Pat]

Exactly Eric and for two reasons. Why now are so many people having issues. Some of us received our frozen blackworms in September and just now having issues. Why not sooner? Also some folks are having issues are not feeding blackworms. Only common denominator is the time of year.

[ericatdallas]

but we use hot water all year to get the tank water the same temp. water still comes into the house cold.

ps. I'm not referring to you as the one who started the winter water issue. I understand what your are saying.

Yeah, house pipes though... like from your heater to your tap. Heck, I know from doing home repair that there's some sloppy jobs done by irresponsible 'professional's or cheapo homeowners. I had to rewire my mom's house due to about 60 NFPA violations just in her attic. I had "40 year electricians" argue with me about proper grounding (hey, a two foot ground rod is against code no matter how many years or what rule you use to measure them). While I'm not an expert in plumbing, I've done enough DIY with my friends to know "shortcuts" are made and "guesses" are.

Also, when you add the fact that some people live in 30-40 year old homes when certain practices weren't followed and materials weren't known, you add a new element of risk. We don't hear about it much any more, but every now and then we still hear about "lead and asbestos" causing issues in some public building.

So I know, it doesn't hold up to scientific rigor, but I do want to open up other possibilities to discuss.

[jimg]

true but still there is no change in the water. we use the hot water in the summer as well as winter, so the problem should be there all year.
What I really think is many people on forums say they never have problems with their discus when in fact they do, they just won't admit it, then when some give a reason that may take blame away from their abilities luck whatever they open up. sounds like a funny thing to think but look how patterns get followed on here, example only, med treatments change on a monthly basis if you follow what I'm saying.

[Second Hand Pat]

Aw geez Jim, a med fad

[YSS]

Furan and Kana seem to be the med of choice this month. :-)

As for winter water, I do think there may be are differences because of what water treatment facilities use to treat water depending on seasons. Warmer places like TX, FL, CA, and so forth may not see differences at all. But at places where there is significant climate differences throughout the year, water treatment may be different. I am only conjecturing of course.

[ericatdallas]

What I really think is many people on forums say they never have problems with their discus when in fact they do, they just won't admit it, then when some give a reason that may take blame away from their abilities luck whatever they open up. sounds like a funny thing to think but look how patterns get followed on here, example only, med treatments change on a monthly basis if you follow what I'm saying.

Using the same reasoning, we could also say it's funny why people are so quick to find something to blame and not try to look at other possibilities. That's why scapegoating has such negative connotations.

true but still there is no change in the water. we use the hot water in the summer as well as winter

But we use less of it. I had to turn the hot water up for the winter on my water heater. I also had to adjust my valves (I have a little setup that allows me to have a consistent water temperature except if there is a drastic water temp change). Consider this, your cold water is colder right now b/c it is going through cold pipes. So to compensate, you need more hot water to mix with it. Also, b/c your cold water going into the heater is colder, it takes longer for the hot water to warm up, so it spends more time there.


-----

again, I'm not here to talk in circles about blackworms, hot water, winter... I just saw information that I thought was relevant and felt it was material to this discussion. Don't you even think it's worth looking at? I showed you a picture of trout fecal matter due to heavy metals but you don't think it's worth considering and you think we should stick with blackworms being the cause?

I think it's worth considering all possibilities. My position hasn't changed from when I posted earlier on this discussion.

Again, is it possible it's blackworms? Sure... is it possible it's due to local water contamination? Sure... is it possible it's due to something else? Heck, why be so closed-minded to say no?

I just don't want to see people scape-goating. I think we all agree that talking in circles isn't productive, but neither is slandering each others motives.

[jimg]

Furan and Kana seem to be the med of choice this month. :-)

As for winter water, I do think there may be are differences because of what water treatment facilities use to treat water depending on seasons. Warmer places like TX, FL, CA, and so forth may not see differences at all. But at places where there is significant climate differences throughout the year, water treatment may be different. I am only conjecturing of course.

I worked at a treatment plant and annoy the hell out of the techs! the only change that makes a difference is in the spring and fall when the water from the top switches places with the bottom water. all chems are electronically added or done on a calibrated dosing machine. thats in ny anyway
you picked up on the fad I see!!!

[ericatdallas]

In your time at the treatment plant, did you take any data at point-of-use destinations? I.e. hot water coming out of the tap after going through pipes? If you guy did, that might worth considering.