Springtime Fry growout event may happen

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
As I watch the progress of the current grow out contestants raise their batches of fry I can see alot of useful information being generated.The results of their hard work to be sure.This current contest has been geared towards a hobbyist raising the fish the best way they know how and anyway they want with the goal of trying to raise the best overall fish they can. Its an ambitious undertaking and they have been doing an awesome job. There has been alot learned by it to date and I am sure more to be learned.

This type of grow out contest though has limitations on what can be learned due to all the various factors and differences. Id like to try and improve what we can learn in the next round. Being of a scientific disposition I like experiments. What I propose is grow out experiments where we take a batch of fry and ship them out to a group of testers and examine the effects of one thing at a time. Ideally these kinds of experiments should be done at the same location so you can control for variations. I would love to do them here but I lack the space and time. I think we can still learn alot and can then redo the experiments under more controlled experiments if anything jumps out.

I am thinking of simple parameters..

Hold the food fed (amount and type).. vary water changes.

or hold the water changes constant and vary food types fed (constant amount)

Hold water change constant and feed various home made beefheart mixes(each mix must be fully documented ingredient wise and measured)

All groups feed the exact same diet, same wc, but different water sources.

The list can go on and on. With careful planning we could learn alot. If I have fry I would again be willing to provide them. I could also work with hobbyists that are not comfortable with shipping and teach them how to do it in a way thats economical for the contest and easy enough if anyone else wants to offer fry up.

Grow out contests are a fun way to learn but we can further the hobby's knowledge base in the process.

Would love to hear all your thoughts on this idea.

thanks,
Al6

[Second Hand Pat]

Sounds interesting Al. I think there is a lot of interest in a second growout contest.
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

I would more than happy to donate fry if I have them then. As the situation stands that is a very big if.

[Filip]

Great idea Al .I suppot it all the way and believe that this experiments provide valuble data for this hobby .

I personally would like to see the difference and end results between two different / opposed methods of raising discus I often come across following other hobists experiences .
The first method is raising them packed in small tank with only a sponge and a lot of daily water changes and the other opposed method would be biger tank (meaning a lot less bioload ), lots of filtration and filter media and moderate 20-30% weekly changes .
Ive seen some good end results amongst hobbists using both methods and that's why I would like to see that in a experiment .What would be the end result and difference in growth between the two different approaches .

[Johney Blaze]

What's the rush ? We are not selling these fish . Don't stress the fish or yourself...that's the game!! But there are so many factors that contribute to growth. I like more space with less stress and less water fluctuations . Unless your trying to sell them .

[Second Hand Pat]

What's the rush ? We are not selling these fish . Don't stress the fish or yourself...that's the game!! But there are so many factors that contribute to growth. I like more space with less stress and less water fluctuations . Unless your trying to sell them .

Hi Johney, I would suggest reading thru this thread to get a handle on our growout contests http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...r-Contest-2018! The contests are a lot of fun and very educational.
Pat

[JamesW]

Anyone heard of the 'Design of Experiment' concept? It should be a way to get the most robust data with the fewest experiments.

eg.
WC schedule: High (>50%/day) vs low (30% 2x/week)
Feed: Commercial vs home-made
Tank volume: 1 gallon/fish vs 10 gallons/fish

This contains three factors with 2 levels so should get the answer with 8 participants. It would require for people to sign up for assumed less than optimal conditions (low WC, 1 gal/fish and commercial food) and not to deviate from the assigned parameters. That said showing it is true in a controlled experiment would still be useful.

Proposed readouts would be size of largest fish, distribution of sizes, sum weight of fish, losses.

[Johney Blaze]

Sounds fun . Should of read through the thread first before. Now I understand and would be grateful to be a part of that . I love Discus data .

[RogueDiscus]

I can see how the goal of this kind of experiment would be to determine what really are the best parameters, but I would have a problem with committing the time and resources to raising a group in what was considered less than ideal conditions given current knowledge.

[brewmaster15]

I can see how the goal of this kind of experiment would be to determine what really are the best parameters, but I would have a problem with committing the time and resources to raising a group in what was considered less than ideal conditions given current knowledge.

Very true Steve...by the nature of these experiments some members would be stuck with sub optimal conditions.We could draw the groups randomly but there will be some that get the short stick. I am thinking of this as something that would benefit everyone in the hobby though.We all "KNOW" what works best...but its hard to quantify it...I'd Love to be able to show people interested in raising discus what the various ways used mean in terms of growth and development rather than preach it. Besides that I think it would interesting as all heck for members to see what happens when hold things constant and vary select parameters.

Al

[brewmaster15]

Anyone heard of the 'Design of Experiment' concept? It should be a way to get the most robust data with the fewest experiments.

eg.
WC schedule: High (>50%/day) vs low (30% 2x/week)
Feed: Commercial vs home-made
Tank volume: 1 gallon/fish vs 10 gallons/fish

This contains three factors with 2 levels so should get the answer with 8 participants. It would require for people to sign up for assumed less than optimal conditions (low WC, 1 gal/fish and commercial food) and not to deviate from the assigned parameters. That said showing it is true in a controlled experiment would still be useful.

Proposed readouts would be size of largest fish, distribution of sizes, sum weight of fish, losses.

Thanks for the feedback and suggestion James!
al

[brewmaster15]

Great idea Al .I suppot it all the way and believe that this experiments provide valuble data for this hobby .

I personally would like to see the difference and end results between two different / opposed methods of raising discus I often come across following other hobists experiences .
The first method is raising them packed in small tank with only a sponge and a lot of daily water changes and the other opposed method would be biger tank (meaning a lot less bioload ), lots of filtration and filter media and moderate 20-30% weekly changes .
Ive seen some good end results amongst hobbists using both methods and that's why I would like to see that in a experiment .What would be the end result and difference in growth between the two different approaches .

Thanks Filip.We need to find you a few hobbyists out your way for one these grow outs!
Al

[brewmaster15]

I would more than happy to donate fry if I have them then. As the situation stands that is a very big if.

Awesome Liz! Thank you!
Al

[Mando]

Anyone heard of the 'Design of Experiment' concept? It should be a way to get the most robust data with the fewest experiments.

eg.
WC schedule: High (>50%/day) vs low (30% 2x/week)
Feed: Commercial vs home-made
Tank volume: 1 gallon/fish vs 10 gallons/fish

This contains three factors with 2 levels so should get the answer with 8 participants. It would require for people to sign up for assumed less than optimal conditions (low WC, 1 gal/fish and commercial food) and not to deviate from the assigned parameters. That said showing it is true in a controlled experiment would still be useful.

Proposed readouts would be size of largest fish, distribution of sizes, sum weight of fish, losses.

I like this idea, however, you'll need a lot more than 8 participants. Like you mentioned, you have 3 Iv's with two levels each. You'll need a group of participants for each level to get credible results. And, you'll need another group to compare against. Maybe the control group could follow what we all follow today to raise our discus - hobby standard. Considering the amount of participants needed, time, effort, and the amounts of fry that would have to be donated, I'd go with Al's idea to slowly collect the data we essentially want from your experimental method, but in a slower scale. What I understood from Al was that he wants to test one or the other. Either Holding WC's constant and changing the foods or vise versa. This method requires about 8 participants.

I'd love to participate on this spring challenge. I wish I could donate fry, but my pair are not good parents.

[SNap0283]

I love this idea of finally putting some numbers to the different methods of raising fry. Tank space and time permitting I would be interested in participating as well.