Trier20 - Cedar Rapids, Iowa, USA

[Trier20]

Ouch, wish I'd been cognizant of that I surely would have said something quickly. I'm sure now though it's a lesson you'll never forget, at least if you're anything like me. Seems like the hard lessons learned first hand are always the ones I remember best.

I'm a guy who seems to have to learn everything the hard way first. That said this mistake WON'T be made again. It wasn't your job to let me know Keith lol there are a few in there that seem to be not affected by the low mineral content. I will keep some and sell the others

[Disgirl]

Brandon, keep your chin up! This contest is a learning experience for all of us, not just you contestants. Try again.
Barb

[nc0gnet0]

Look at it thsi way Brandon, as much, if not more, is learned from our failures than that of our success's. This information will serve to be valuable for many. I do have a question, did you have any die-offs/sickness in the tank containing your non-contest fish?

Rick

[Trier20]

Look at it thsi way Brandon, as much, if not more, is learned from our failures than that of our success's. This information will serve to be valuable for many. I do have a question, did you have any die-offs/sickness in the tank containing your non-contest fish?

Rick

I had one die with some funky gill issue. Had a short one a one side and a pretty non existent on the other. Other than that I had no deaths.

[Trier20]

Brandon, keep your chin up! This contest is a learning experience for all of us, not just you contestants. Try again.
Barb

We're gonna try again as soon as the pair decides not to eat their eggs. Next round will be caged until free swimming

[Trier20]

Every last one of this spawn in gone now. Sold the last 18 yesterday!

[Second Hand Pat]

Are you sad?

[Trier20]

You know what Pat? It was definitely different not cleaning their tank last night. honestly i was kinda sad but i needed the money sold 18 of them for 200. gave the guy a deal(first customer) so hopefully I will get a good review

[rdiscus]

You sold your contest fish?

[Trier20]

You sold your contest fish?

No Ryan those all died from the filter not being cycled completely. I then found out my tap water had an ammonia content of 2ppm. wonderwhy they died off so fast. i thought I had to choose my 30 and rushed and ended in catastrophe. This was their brothers and sisters. The fish room isn't the same. Now I'm giving the pair pep talks again so I can have more and do it right this time.

[nc0gnet0]

You didn't sell the ones with short gill plates did you?

Rick

[Trier20]

You didn't sell the ones with short gill plates did you?

Rick

No I culled those.

[Alfredo Llecha]

.... I am seeing quite a few with short gill plates. Can I ask what your water parameters are? Reason I ask is this could be indicative of your water being too soft (not enough calcium).

Rick

Or not enough Calcium AND Phosphorous in the feed... too many FDBW..

I read the whole thread, sorry for your loses. Despite the issue with the ammonia, you have had some bacterial/protozoa infection and treated with PP. Ammonia and bacteria are related. Peak of ammonia boosts the microrganisms present in the water, that is the reason for doing WC. You could not realize that the filter sponge wasnt working. Your first PP treatment killed almost all the microrganisms, but the ammonia was still present. Then you used Prime to neutralize it, really the job was done by the Formaldehyde Sodium Bisulfite part, but Prime has another compounds, mainly Sodium Chloride that discus can barely tolerate, in fact salt is an anaesthesic for them (myorelaxant), so the rhythm of its breath slows down --> lack of oxygen in the blood --> presence of ammonia --> metabolic acidosis --> remediless death (if you didnt have an oxygen tank by hand). Salt can be used for fish shipment (in fact it is), but the bags are filled up with pure oxygen, so the fish can take enough oxygen even if its breathing rate is low... but salt cant be used in a tank at 88F.

Hope it helps.

[Trier20]

Or not enough Calcium AND Phosphorous in the feed... too many FDBW..

I read the whole thread, sorry for your loses. Despite the issue with the ammonia, you have had some bacterial/protozoa infection and treated with PP. Ammonia and bacteria are related. Peak of ammonia boosts the microrganisms present in the water, that is the reason for doing WC. You could not realize that the filter sponge wasnt working. Your first PP treatment killed almost all the microrganisms, but the ammonia was still present. Then you used Prime to neutralize it, really the job was done by the Formaldehyde Sodium Bisulfite part, but Prime has another compounds, mainly Sodium Chloride that discus can barely tolerate, in fact salt is an anaesthesic for them (myorelaxant), so the rhythm of its breath slows down --> lack of oxygen in the blood --> presence of ammonia --> metabolic acidosis --> remediless death (if you didnt have an oxygen tank by hand). Salt can be used for fish shipment (in fact it is), but the bags are filled up with pure oxygen, so the fish can take enough oxygen even if its breathing rate is low... but salt cant be used in a tank at 88F.

Hope it helps.

Thanks Alfredo! I think we finally have this problem worked out. Through numerous conversations with people on here who helped. This forum is a really great place. I can't stress that enough! Next time I'll get it right. I really hope my experience will help other to not make the mistakes that I made during this contest. To all my discus family on here thanks for everything!

[nc0gnet0]

Or not enough Calcium AND Phosphorous in the feed... too many FDBW..

I have raised young fry off of an almost exclusive diet of FDBW and never had this issue, so I do not beleive this to be the case. But then again I am not sure what you mean. If your saying low calcium content in the water coupled with low calcium content in the feed then maybe, but if your saying too many FDBW's regardless of water content (in regards to calcium and trace elements) then I can say conclusively that is not the case. It's just much easier to monitor Calcium levels in water than it is in the feed.

I might also add that in regards to the levels of Calcium+ in the water, there is a point of diminishing returns. While water that is too soft can be a major factor, it doesn't take a lot to grow healthy fry. In other words, once you hit a certain point, adding more does nothing and is not neccesarily better. For instance, with my water I know that if I raise fry in straight RO that measures in the neighborhood of 30 TDS, I can get a very high rate of short gill plates and very "beaky" looking fish, but by simply raising this level to 60-70 TDS, all these issues disapear. Raising the levels further has little to no impact on growth or rate of deformity.

Despite the issue with the ammonia, you have had some bacterial/protozoa infection and treated with PP. Ammonia and bacteria are related. Peak of ammonia boosts the microrganisms present in the water, that is the reason for doing WC. You could not realize that the filter sponge wasnt working. Your first PP treatment killed almost all the microrganisms, but the ammonia was still present.

Quite possibly true as well, although it takes quite of bit of PP to kill off a mature sponge filter. The filter can usually "bounce back" with little or no issues, and is a little less suspectable to total die off then other filters like a HOB, but it can happen. If you have low PH levels (often the case with straight RO) it can effect the rate of miosis and retard how fast the beneficial bacteria can bounce back. If your neutralizing the PP with hydrogen peroxide you have to be aware that H202 can nuke a filter too.

Then you used Prime to neutralize it, really the job was done by the Formaldehyde Sodium Bisulfite part, but Prime has another compounds, mainly Sodium Chloride that discus can barely tolerate, in fact salt is an anaesthesic for them (myorelaxant), so the rhythm of its breath slows down --> lack of oxygen in the blood --> presence of ammonia --> metabolic acidosis --> remediless death (if you didnt have an oxygen tank by hand). Salt can be used for fish shipment (in fact it is), but the bags are filled up with pure oxygen, so the fish can take enough oxygen even if its breathing rate is low... but salt cant be used in a tank at 88F.

I loved this part (ie: I agree). Several times I have argued with others regarding the use of salt when treating for gill/breathing issues. The popular misconception is that since salt lowers the breathing rate of fish, it is therefore making thier breathing easier. This is simply not the case. By using this misconception I could also summise that clove oil must also aid in breathing, as it too lowers the resperation rate, and we all know that isn't true.

Rick