sick fish

[MostlyDiscus]

Connie,

I have a rescue(Lucy). Half Jack and half basset hound. May be one of the best dogs Ive ever had a relationship with. Smart as a whip. Sorry about Roma, never easy to put a pet down. Even culls

Ed

[Daniella]

How are the fish doing? Any improvement?

If the sores are healing this is already a good sign.

I certianly don't know much about antibiotics but I do know one thing, I've got another fish near death and apparently there's no way I'm gonna stop it. I did treat the tank with the 4th dose of QC last night. One fish is going to die...probably today, the second one has not changed much at all. The sores on him are almost healed but he's still very dark and has some white mucus on him, and the 3rd fish appears to be fine and is eating again. I think at this point, there's not much to lose with trying a pp treatment. Can someone help me with how to make sure I get the proper dose... i.e. how do I make certain I get 2 ppm? My plan is to treat over the weekend. As I've said, the fish are in a 20 gallon tank. Do I treat the tank and then do a big WC after 4 or 8 hours or do I move the fish to a bucket for the pp bath like I did for the salt dip?

[poconogal]

Thought I'd give this link to an article written by Andrew Soh and kindly donated to BIDKA. It is an informative and interesting article. Among other things, it discusses Discus Plague, which Andrew states is a multiple parasite infestation (See Common accusation section).

http://forum.bidka.org/showthread.php?t=1911

[seanyuki]

Hi Connie,

Thanks for the article....


Cheers
Francis

[smsimcik]

Thanks Connie. That's a very useful article.

[Daniella]

I seriously doubt that it is a multiple parasite infestation. I don't think one can catalogue every cases the same way and probably somes are bacterial and have not much to do with parasites. It was the case with my fish anyway.

Thought I'd give this link to an article written by Andrew Soh and kindly donated to BIDKA. It is an informative and interesting article. Among other things, it discusses Discus Plague, which Andrew states is a multiple parasite infestation (See Common accusation section).

http://forum.bidka.org/showthread.php?t=1911

[MostlyDiscus]

Connie,

Andrew has some great info. We are very fortunate to have him for refferences. Seems like a great guy too.

Ed

[MostlyDiscus]

Daniella,

I dont like to call anyone out, Not even those induviduals that seem to know it all, but I have to question your backround as compared to Mr. Soh's. After reading Andrews book(several times due to the fact that there was so much to consume) and confering with him, I am finally making some sense of the breeding problems I was having from the early 90s. I had some decent fish(Grand Champion DSG Tampa,95) along with some other awards, I dont think I was just getting lucky with a few random spawns. I cant tell you how thankfull I am to Mr. Soh. I find I learn more by listening than talking.

The biggest problem I see with you advice is that you really dont know what the problem is. We can all guess for sure but in the end were still guessing with this one. PP works great. I use it to clean up my breeder tanks before they spawn. Hatch rates go through roof that way. I just dont think PP is the cure for everything. GLGD

Ed

[Daniella]

I may not know what the problem is, but I know what treated it in my fish. I never said that PP was to cure everything, but I do beleive that it will be efficient agains external bacterial infection in a more general way than antibiotics are.

But that's another story. what I am against is the fact that it is not right to say that everything that correspond to the symptoms of the discus plague is a multi parasites infestation. If it was a multiparasites infestation, I would have seen a few I think from all the scrapes that I did on all my fish.

What about columnaris and other bacterias?

Like my fish had those symptoms of the discus plague but yet it after only 2 hours in 2ppm of PP the symtoms started to go away.

I do not think that a multi parasites infestation would have healed with only 2 hours in 2ppmn of PP. I may not know much but I know that much. A bacteria though would have probably been killed by it. Bacterias are much more fragile in general than parasites.

Anyway there are many flaws in that articles. Here is what I think about it:

He goes on and on to say that you cannot properly diagnose a sick fish without a body scrapes and I quote:

"Many 'experts' claim of 'past treatment successes', thus recommanding the same administration for future cases just because they witness similar scenarios."

Right, but he does exactly that!...He claim that the so called discus plague is, from his "experience" a multiparasites infestation. What? saying that without a body scrape? He advise that a diagnosis should never be done without a body scrape, yet he does just that.

He goes even further by giving a treatment for the discus plague and in his treatment there is instruction to use antibiotics but yet he does not reveal the antibiotics used. And to make matter worse, he say and I quote:

"Make sure the antibiotics you intend to apply is not frequently in use, better if never at all."

like that's ever going to happen. We basicaly use what is available for the hobby and safe for fish.

And that shocked me the most and I quote:

"Therefore, it is important that the antibiotic used is a personal secret and not to be shared among friends. It is not a secret weapon to triumph over your frinds but a weapon against bacteria. Used correctly, accurately and privately, it would definitly be your hobby's lifesaver."


Oki..that's not right in my book.

Oh well, just my humble opinion so don't come jumping all over me for saying that. Think what you want of it for yourself but please respect my opinion for what it is.

The biggest problem I see with you advice is that you really dont know what the problem is. We can all guess for sure but in the end were still guessing with this one. PP works great. I use it to clean up my breeder tanks before they spawn. Hatch rates go through roof that way. I just dont think PP is the cure for everything. GLGD

Ed

[merk175]

well haven't updated in a while. The 3 fish are still alive. Two are actually doing reasonably well. The 3rd is still struggling. Still has some type of white stuff on him. This was the fish that was in the best shape for a while and then turned for the worst. I'm now down to no medication. Just doing regular WC and adding salt. Haven't had a chance to read the article but I will. I also need to post some new pics as well. Honestly I've had so much other stuff going on the fish have taken a back seat recently. Yes I know, no one on this site wants to hear that but...... I'll get back up to speed soon...

[Eddie]

well haven't updated in a while. The 3 fish are still alive. Two are actually doing reasonably well. The 3rd is still struggling. Still has some type of white stuff on him. This was the fish that was in the best shape for a while and then turned for the worst. I'm now down to no medication. Just doing regular WC and adding salt. Haven't had a chance to read the article but I will. I also need to post some new pics as well. Honestly I've had so much other stuff going on the fish have taken a back seat recently. Yes I know, no one on this site wants to hear that but...... I'll get back up to speed soon...

Totally understand Glenn, although unfortunate, if you have tried and nothing helps, let nature take it's course. I think the freshwater and salt can be therapeutic for them too. If the fish are eating, it would be good to get some quality foods in them.

To be honest, depending on the strain of bacteria affecting the fish, maybe the antibiotics used were useless. I know M and M2 are said to be effective but there are other antibiotics to try. You may want to consider Furanase or Furan-2, I just had some success with Furanase.

All the best buddy and let us know the outcome,

Eddie

[MSD]

I seriously doubt that it is a multiple parasite infestation. I don't think one can catalogue every cases the same way and probably somes are bacterial and have not much to do with parasites. It was the case with my fish anyway.

C'mon now Dani, you are questioning Andrew Soh? What next, Jack Wattley was wrong with his breeding methods and non-use of PP?? .

[MostlyDiscus]

Dan, I think we can agree to disagree, I really was not trying to put you down. I really believe that Mr Soh has alot of good advice to give. There is a reason though that he will not disclose what meds he uses. For the record, I think that it will only be a matter of time until your knowlege will grow to be quite reliable for everyone. Sometimes practicle experience is the best teacher. GLGD

Ed

[poconogal]

Right, but he does exactly that!...He claim that the so called discus plague is, from his "experience" a multiparasites infestation. What? saying that without a body scrape? He advise that a diagnosis should never be done without a body scrape, yet he does just that.

He states "through his experience and experimentation..." How do you know what he did or did not do, what his experience entailed, what his experimentation entailed? How do you know he did not do any body scrapes? Were you there? Just because he did not elaborate -- I'm sure he just did not mention that he did body scrapes, after all, in any article, the writer does not mention every single little detail. You can't jump to conclusions or make wild assumptions like that, that is just plain wrong.

[Daniella]

«yes I can understand his reason for not disclosing the antibiotics but I don't think the secret part is very nice. Sorry but if I had a friend in trouble, I would not sit back and watch his or her discus die without trying to help if I knew of something that would work.

And I was just pointing out the contradictions. He does not do what he suggest and honestly who here agree with the statement that what ever has the mentioned symptoms of discus is multi parasite infestation? That's nonsense without a scrape and he sort of says so himself. This is a contradiction.

Dan, I think we can agree to disagree, I really was not trying to put you down. I really believe that Mr Soh has alot of good advice to give. There is a reason though that he will not disclose what meds he uses. For the record, I think that it will only be a matter of time until your knowlege will grow to be quite reliable for everyone. Sometimes practicle experience is the best teacher. GLGD

Ed