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Thread: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

  1. #61
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    very interested
    how are these discus developing?

  2. #62
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    I have a pr of Snakeskins and the fry are divided into 14 bar, 9 bar and no bar. Both parents are 14 bar. I have read on this forum that Snakeskin is not set and has 14 bar, the 9 bar are throughbacks to Red Turq and no bar is Blue Diamond in the past. BD is recessive, right? I assume 9 bar( Turq ) is dominant. My question is how to setup the square for something like this scenerio? Would it be something like sTb for both parents and the outcome would have {ss, sT, Ts, sb, bs, TT, Tb, bT, bb} Would I be correct in assuming {ss, sb, bs} all be 14 bar, {bb} be no bar and the rest 9 bar. Have I assumed too much and have it wrong? Comments please?

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by AquatiCreations View Post
    Hey Guys,

    Does anyone have the break down on face coloration, Such as in the Red Melon strain? What factor(s) determines whether it has solid body color,or seperation of face from body?

    Thanks!
    Face color in red melons i believe is controlled by a process called Polygenic inheritance. Very similar to how skin color in humans is inherited. Subtle variations occur even within the same breeding group and can be manipulated by selection. This in essence is the real secret to producing great discus, controlling quantative traits.

    But foods fed will also have a strong determining effect on face color, in my experience red enhancers will make the face less white, along with the genetic traits.

    Quote Originally Posted by RLorts View Post
    I have a pr of Snakeskins and the fry are divided into 14 bar, 9 bar and no bar. Both parents are 14 bar. I have read on this forum that Snakeskin is not set and has 14 bar, the 9 bar are throughbacks to Red Turq and no bar is Blue Diamond in the past. BD is recessive, right? I assume 9 bar( Turq ) is dominant. My question is how to setup the square for something like this scenerio? Would it be something like sTb for both parents and the outcome would have {ss, sT, Ts, sb, bs, TT, Tb, bT, bb} Would I be correct in assuming {ss, sb, bs} all be 14 bar, {bb} be no bar and the rest 9 bar. Have I assumed too much and have it wrong? Comments please?
    I believe the dominant snakeskin gene is controlled in a heterozygous manner ie 2 differing dna sequences at the locus of the chromosone. For labeling of the punnet square normal practice dictates it would be labelled, say, S & W on each side. S represents the dominant snakeskin dna sequence, and W represents the wild type non-mutated dna sequence. The calculated results would be 25% homozygous snakeskins, 50% heterozygous snakeskins and 25% homozygous wild type (9 bar). But in reality this does not occur with snakeskin, to the best of my knowledge homozygous snakeskins are not produced and it is unusual to get 75% snakeskins/25% nine bar split in practice (more like 50/50), suggesting the dna sequence for snakeskin is controlled in a differing manner, or perhaps there is a destructive component to the gene affecting only homozygous snakeskin, therefore not allowing them to develop into healthy discus.

    Concerning the barless ones being produced,they could well be coming from an earlier introduction of the ressessive blue diamond gene. If both parents are carriers of the blue diamond dna sequence then it is entirely possible to produce a quantity of bds in each spawn. The punnet square in this case would be labeled as W, representing the wild type non mutated dna sequence, and b, representing the mutated ressessive blue diamond dna sequence. (Capital letters are always used for dominant genes and lower case letters for ressessive genes) The barless ones are the likely result (bb), they would be in both snakeskin and 9 bar form, though off course we can't see the bars and could only discern them from breeding experiments.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Thanks for responding and make it clearer to me. However, that leaves me with even more questions. My parent snakeskins are siblings. The ratio of fry is as you thought for snakeskin and wild type, about even with no more than 10% barless. I am wondering about the barless genetics. Is the barless a recessive trait that happens to also be a blue diamond trait? If I follow what you are saying, then if I cross two of these barless I will get 14 bar, 9 bar and barless fry. Or will they all be barless because it is recessive?

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    The blue diamond barless type is just one variation of barless genes. I am not certain if all types are controlled in a ressessive way or not, and even if your barless guys are from the bd/barless variety. Normally this type is easy to tell even from a young age, as they are solid silver/blue, even when quite small.
    If you breed 2 barless one together, you should get all barless ones if they are bd type. But one time i bred an albino alenquer (original type) with a golden based melon discus. All the fry were browns as expected, but an unusual thing happened with these discus, they were also barless. Inbred they produced as expected albinos, goldens and browns. But all the browns then have bars as normal......so, i backcrossed a female barless brown from the f1 ,with her golden melon father, and they produced 50/50 golden/browns. But all the browns again have normal bars....i'm still breeding with these and have not given up with the barless type but so far it is proving difficult to hold onto in this case.

    Rod

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Thanks again for your response. I was told that my strain of snakeskins had blue diamond heritage. So I assume that is where the barless came from. I have several spawings and the ratios are pretty much the same in each spawn. The largest group, what I kept, is between 3" and 4". The barless ones are the smallest and haven't colored up in the body but I can tell they are not going to be solid blue. They have some red patches/areas in the fins but no lines or pattern. In one of the spawns, I had a golden fry that appeared to be barless, but I lost it at about the 1 month stage.
    I find it very interesting that the Snakeskin and barless genetics do not seem to follow the rules, so to speak. I have heard that Snakeskins are considered a mutation. Is barless considered to be a mutation as well. What are some of the other genetic mutations that are difficlut or impossible to set?

  7. #67
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Those barless ones sound very interesting, any chance of a photo? They almost sound like they might be ghost discus!

    Yes i think the snakeskin is a proper mutation, and i think barless is as well. My take on mutation is any trait that deviates from normal/usual wild type discus is a mutation.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    I am definitely not a photographer but here is the threee types of fry.

    bar_choices.jpg

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    What would I get from a female flamingo (yellow face red melon) and a pigeon blood checkerboard male (nearly no peppering)?


    Quote Originally Posted by Rod View Post
    Those barless ones sound very interesting, any chance of a photo? They almost sound like they might be ghost discus!

    Yes i think the snakeskin is a proper mutation, and i think barless is as well. My take on mutation is any trait that deviates from normal/usual wild type discus is a mutation.

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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniella View Post
    What would I get from a female flamingo (yellow face red melon) and a pigeon blood checkerboard male (nearly no peppering)?
    Hi Daniella,

    A few possibilities there. flamingo is golden based, it also has the stripeless gene (no face pattern). The cbpb is pigeon based with broken pattern.

    If the cbpb is homozygous pigeon, then all pigeons. The stripless gene will cause about 50/50 stripeless/patterned ratio. The pattern will be highly variable but i think still mostly broken up like checkerboard. all will be golden carriers.

    if the cbpb is heterozygous pigeon, then about 75% pigeons and 25% brown based. Stripless gene influence will be the same. all pigeons will be heterozygous and all progeny will be golden carriers.

    if the cbpb is heterozygous pigeon and golden carrier, then 50% golden based and 50% pigeon based. all pigeons will be heterozygous carrying golden gene. Stripeless gene, again the same.

    Other possibilities can occur depending on what genes your discus has hidden away.

    hth

    Rod

  11. #71
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Ah Daniella, i noticed you repeated the question elsewhere with a picture. That red is no flamingo discus and is genetically different. Results above will not be accurate in this case.

    Have a nice day

    Rod

  12. #72
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by RLorts View Post
    I am definitely not a photographer but here is the threee types of fry.

    bar_choices.jpg
    Very interesting looking barless. I think it may be a hairline discus, extremely rare but will occasionally appear from breeding 2 14 bar snakeskins together. They are slow growing and slow coloring, and also barless except for a peduncle bar, which your guy appears to have as well. They don't develop any pattern on the face but at about 12 months tiny bits of pattern will begin to show in the fins and increase very slowly with age. The pattern is hair thin. I have bred a few from a pair of 14 bar web leopards i had, and i have included a pic of one. Notice no pattern on the face. From what information i can find, the breeding of 2 hairlines will produce all hairlines, but are incredibly difficult to raise. If you post more photos as they mature, i would love to see.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  13. #73
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Hey Rod,
    That's an interesting looking fish. Looks like my "X" before she put her make up on in the morning.
    Would the hairlines be useful in creating a line of spotteds with very small numerous spots, or more for eliminating stress bars? Have they been used in creating any strains that you know of?
    Thanks,

    Kacey

  14. #74
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Quote Originally Posted by kaceyo View Post
    Hey Rod,
    That's an interesting looking fish. Looks like my "X" before she put her make up on in the morning.
    Would the hairlines be useful in creating a line of spotteds with very small numerous spots, or more for eliminating stress bars? Have they been used in creating any strains that you know of?
    Thanks,

    Kacey
    LMAO, so funny.....

    Kacey, do you have Andrew Sohs second book? It mentions a little about the hairline type.

    Eddie
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    "If you ask for an opinion...don't get pissed when I give you mine."

  15. #75
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    Default Re: "Discus Genetics and Breeding Info and Discussion"

    Hey Eddie,
    I don't have the second book, only the first. I've seen references to hairlines on the asian forums but didn't know what they were refering to. Seems like they would be useful in creating barless strains at the very least.

    Kacey

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