Withdrawn - First attempt at breeding Discus - Log

[Chicago Discus]

I have been thinking about this thread for a few days now. First I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination and nor is the advice I may give to new or old people always the rule or norm. But I always give advice to best of my ability and if I don't know or have experience with something I will state that or direct the person to someone who knows better. I can understand where people would get very upset with the ways and methods that you chose to raise your fry. Hell a while back I started a thread on wiping tanks down and got a lot of negative feedback and some people on the forum treated me like I was a moron for even starting the thread. Or the time when my Aunt and I posted our findings on humanly putting down fish ok don't get me started about about animal abuse we were told that throwing the fish on the floor or the garden was a much better and cheaper method after spending hundreds of dollars on fish. So with that said I know what it's like to be on the other end of this kind of abuse. I am also in this contest and many time have thought about pulling out mostly because of the other contestants and the ever changing rules that took place in the beginning. And the people with the biggest issues are no longer in the contest so go figure. So Sean learn from your mistakes that you made during this contest and even though you didn't do things in the traditional way you still did them and thats more than I can say about a lot of people giving you a bunch of $hit. It takes courage to document and update your progress and failures on an open forum. I am very glad you documented this it will show new and old people on this forum that water changes and larger tanks will give you much better results.............Josie

[Lt shinysides]

Very well put!!!!!

[shawnhu]

Wow Josie, you blow me away! I'm sorry my thread has weighed on you for several days, but I am ..... Can't put it in words, but I thank you. (I read that thread about you and your aunt btw). I too was very discouraged by the early rule changes, but that's not what did me in. I appreciate your very well thought out reply.

[Kal-El]

I have been thinking about this thread for a few days now. First I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination and nor is the advice I may give to new or old people always the rule or norm. But I always give advice to best of my ability and if I don't know or have experience with something I will state that or direct the person to someone who knows better. I can understand where people would get very upset with the ways and methods that you chose to raise your fry. Hell a while back I started a thread on wiping tanks down and got a lot of negative feedback and some people on the forum treated me like I was a moron for even starting the thread. Or the time when my Aunt and I posted our findings on humanly putting down fish ok don't get me started about about animal abuse we were told that throwing the fish on the floor or the garden was a much better and cheaper method after spending hundreds of dollars on fish. So with that said I know what it's like to be on the other end of this kind of abuse. I am also in this contest and many time have thought about pulling out mostly because of the other contestants and the ever changing rules that took place in the beginning. And the people with the biggest issues are no longer in the contest so go figure. So Sean learn from your mistakes that you made during this contest and even though you didn't do things in the traditional way you still did them and thats more than I can say about a lot of people giving you a bunch of $hit. It takes courage to document and update your progress and failures on an open forum. I am very glad you documented this it will show new and old people on this forum that water changes and larger tanks will give you much better results.............Josie

Well said Josie...

[Kal-El]

Because of what I see happen over and over again in this forum... I tent to restrict myself from posting any test results of mine in this forum. My quest to limit my WC will be kept offline and only share the good and bad when I'm able to find what works for me. The number of negative feedback just isn't worth it IMO...

[joeandmeagan]

This whole thread is I think one of the reasons I enjoy SD. A complete variety of opinions and ideas exchanged in a mostly civilized manner. Shawnu I applaud your trying but mainly your continued documentation which can be pointed to in future threads when new ones come along and say why don't you guys do it this way.

[shawnhu]

Thanks joeandmeagan. It's my hopes that good use can come from the time spent documenting.

[oldfar]

HEY Shawnhu blow this off ,if I remember wright you have a baby coming ,roll up with your wife and enjoy what is coming your way. Had my 4mo old grand child come over tonight, she keeps me happy pulling on my beard, yanking my glasses off with the biggest smile I have ever seen got to love that .Forget this s*** you have better things too do.Paul

[shawnhu]

Oldfar, thanks for the advice. An old buddy of mine is going through some rough times, so we're keeping him company and getting blasted. Thanks for sharing the visual image of your loving family, if I ever grow a beard, I'd love for my grandchild to pull it too.

[Fundulopanchax]

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading about your experiences. The breeding and building threads are always enjoyable to me. By following the efforts of folks willing to spend the time posting, I learn an enormous amount.

Keep them coming!

Ron

[shawnhu]

Thanks for your feedback Ron.

[brewmaster15]

Al, Pat, Chad, and other mods, could we perhaps have a section here at SD for experiments in discus keeping? This way any of us who want to try something possibly new, untried, untested, could have a place to record their experiences, whether good or bad. For example, several years ago I had an experiment here about cycling a new discus tank with nothing but Miracle Gro fertilizer. It worked! But the thread is long gone now, buried in thousands of other posts, and nobody will see it again, most likely. If it were in an "experiment section" then it might be seen again and tried by other folks. Shawn's experiences might be an example of all this. Just an idea from me...
Barb

Barb, I remember that experiment, it was a great experiment based off something I mentioned in a thread and several members like yourself tried out.

I have no problem with setting up such a section, but unfortunately it won't address this issue , You will still have debates as to the if such an experiment should have been done, was cruel, was ridiculous, was not the "right way" to do it. The issue is people usually look at something from their own experiences and have a hard time looking outside that realm. Its Human nature.

Heres some examples...
experiment... I posted my experiments of having my discus raise my angelfish fry. Documented everything shared it all here. I got many emails and complaints that accused me of cruelty to the fry as the discus were sure to eat them...and even if they didn't, the fry would somehow be messed up and not breed normally. I kid you not. You know what..I could care less what anyone said..it was a brilliant experiment...and I learned volumes from it as did anyone that read it.

Experiment I documented fine trimming a heckel with deformed fins... How could I do that to a fish...I cut its tail? Its fins...poor fish. I had several heated arguements over it... But again it was an excellent experiment. I was able to show people how to do a technique that is used often by exporters and to document fin regeneration.

Experiment I Documented the Keeping discus in a tank with no biofilter, and the relationship between ammonia and PH and toxicity.

Experiment I documented early fry development with a microscope, and over a timeline..The fry was sacrificed....but again we learned alot.

Experiment I documented my technique of artificially raising fry. I butted heads with many that said it was unnatural, would impair parental instincts (BSHT), that the fry would lag in growth...be inferior to parent raised. Again much was learned.


Experiment I bred a really peppered PB to a non PB to test that Peppered Fry dogma.. Why? To prove or disprove it... and document it...(proven...peppered pigeons X Non pigeons = peppered FRY.

Experiment I started a forum for discus nuts along my ideas...many thought it would fail..best experiment to date yet..the jury is still out on whether it was viable...but it was a risk.

My point isnt to blow my own horn here ...Its to show you all the value in doing an experiment. Experiments are how we test what is generally accepted and push the limits of what we know.. There are always people that will not agree with them. But there is no forward movement of anything unless we try things different,look at them different, test what is accepted, question it, prove or disprove it. Even an experiment that doesn't work as we want it to can be of great value.

I encourage anyone with a different way of looking at something to try it....document it, share it and discuss it...Heck if it wasnt for someone that thought the world was round when everyone else thought it was flat...where would we be?

no more Digressions by me just wanted to address the experiment issue..... Lets go back to when I started this contest....I asked for people to hold their criticisms on techniques until the contest was done..Why? Because if you influence the way a contestant is doing things , it makes it harder to document what works and what doesn't. Its basic science. This thread has really gone off course in that regards.. The discussions on what worked best will be easy at the contest end when we have the final images and results.

Okay next issue to address..I Have seen this reference to "rules Changing all the Time" Straight up. I was very clear when we started this contest that something like this had never been done and that due to the nature of the contest we would run into issues that needed to be addressed and we would modify things as required. I personally think we have been fair in this. Its always easy to criticise something..try organizing something like this. Truth is Discus People aren't always easy to work with !

I think people need to take a step back... and just try to enjoy this challenge for what its meant to be, I also give credit to every participant in this challenge...even those that ran into issues. Its not easy being put under a microscope.

Thanks,
al

[Oscarsx]

Shawn, a bit of of a subject change.. But while looking at your YouTube channel I noticed a fat hog you have in your avatar picture.

Moar pictures please.

Oh and regarding this thread

Inb4 these fish win the NADA show...lol

- oz

[shawnhu]

Al, just when I thought it's not possible for you to make any more sense than you already have, you amaze me. Time and time again, you make great examples and see things in a very objective view. It was premature of me to comment on the competition's changing rules, and once again, you are right. Something of this caliber should have fluid rules that change with the benefit of the end result in mind, to improve the overall understand of Discus. You are an inspiration Al.

Oz, you're a riot. When you said hog, I thought to myself, I have not gone on a hog hunt yet.... Then it hit me. The large mouth!

[SMB2]

First off good luck with the new little one. Babies are a lot like juvie Discus. They need frequent feedings, lots of water (and poop) changes. You will watch it grow, and be amazed at the different types of poops. They will get sick and keep you up at night. You will spend equal amounts of money on fish tanks and schooling for the kid. And if you are lucky they will grow up to be nice adults

I have enjoyed all the dust thrown up from this thread. The biggest problem is that it was posted in the CHALLENGE. The purpose of the Challenge is to raise the fish to be the best specimens possible as that is the highest goal for advanced Discus hobbiests and breeders. In and of itself, that is a challenging undertaking.
I may be wrong, but I don't think your goal was the same and perhaps the undertaking was therefore seen as a slight to the task of raising "trophy" fish. If you seriously want to add science to the hobby with regards to your minimalist approach then you would have to do a side by side comparison. That is, split the fry number in half and simultaneously raise one group with your present method and the control in the more conventional manner. Then see where the fish are at 3/6/12 months. Again this is perhaps better posted in an experimental section so as not to ruffle scales.