Emergency Situation - Potentially Sick Discus

[StriatedTiger]

Hello all,

I want to first admit that I am a Discus newbie. I am not an aquarium newbie, but I am just getting back into it after many years of hiatus. That said, I have been browsing the web for weeks for any information I can find on Discus, from a week prior to purchasing Discus till now, almost two weeks after. During this research, I read many threads from this forum. For so many questions I had, someone had already asked that question on this very site and it kept popping up in my google searches. Thank you for all the years of activity and record in regards to Discus as I have learned much, and from a variety of viewpoints. I come today seeking your advice. I've got some problems with potentially sick Discus and I am afraid that I will soon lose one of my fish. I've read some of the stickies and I have some ideas but I am not sure. The bottom line is I am looking for advice specific to my fish, my situation and circumstance. I am going to provide you with as much information as I can think of. I will welcome all and any opinions.

First, I'll start with some history, and then we can get to the basics... water chemistry and tank setup. I'll try to keep the history short so I can get to the sick fish. You will here me say "we" a lot. The fish tank is a joint venture with my brother. We are adults right around 30 years of age. We have got a 60 gallon fish tank. We knew we needed to cycle the tank, so we started with some gravel substrate (keep reading) and set it up with some ornaments, fake plants, etc. and ran the tank for a week without doing anything else. We asked question after question at various local pet stores and fish stores. We then decided we needed to treat our tank before adding fish. We treat all our tank water with the LFS recommended products. Specifically, we started with API Stress Coat+ and live nitrifying bacteria from Fritz zyme as a base. A few days after treating the tank we added some hardy bottom feeders to provide small amounts of ammonia to help cycle the tank. There are varied opinions on keeping these fish with Discus, but we've got one Bushy Nose Plecostamus and two Garra Flavatra. We started them right in 84 degree water and they seem to thrive in it without any issue despite lower temperatures recommended. Sad thing is a week after adding these fish we realized we had to redo our entire tank if we were to keep Discus. We removed all but a couple small ornaments from the tank, all the gravel substrate, all fake plants. We went back in with a thin layer of fine sand substrate. Live plants are scattered throughout the tank. A giant arching piece of driftwood became the center piece of our tank, along with two pieces underneath. We also have a couple large rocks, all purchased from local fish stores. Our tank is tall, and there is still lots of free swimming room. We added Black Water to soften the water for the Discus, and we also use a touch of API Leaf Zone for our plants. A few days after this setup, we decided we really liked Discus but wanted to add some smaller fish for contrast. It was recommended to put these fish in first to decrease possible aggression from the Discus. We added a couple Glo Tetras and a few shiny guppies. I read some conflicting viewpoints on keeping live bearing guppies with Discus. Feel free to chime in, I'm still undecided. We test the water frequently and achieved zero or very very low ammonia and nitrite levels. Our pH is the tap water pH, 7.4. This is slightly higher than recommended for Discus, but the LFS kept their Discus at this pH and we were told the most important thing with pH is consistency. We were and have continued to siphon the tank and change 40-60% of the water every day or every other day depending, and treat all new water with previously mentioned product. As we were now satisfied with our setup and water chemistry, we were ready to add Discus.

One LFS had us on an order list. To our surprise, we found a tank full of Discus at another LFS. They were mostly Red Marlboro type discus, juveniles. Listen, I love fish, but for an exotic Discus fish tank we were looking for fish with less of a... goldfish color. That said, there was one cool looking pigeon blood type juvenile in there. In a display tank near the front of the store, there was a larger Discus, 4-4.5", a turquoise that looked very dark at the time. It was in a tank full of large, semi-aggressive fish. It's fins were ragged, we were told from other fish nipping at it. We decided we were going to save this fish, XD always got to be the hero. Not wanting to put a Discus in our tank alone, we also added the juvenile pigeon blood. Of course after we had the fish in our tank I read that keeping larger Discus with smaller Discus may not be a good idea. That said, these two get along great. The larger Discus did not and does not bully the smaller one, and you often see them schooling around the tank together. I have read that you need to keep Discus in groups of 6 or larger, and this was our plan. We were told, however, to add a couple fish at a time and make sure they live before adding more. The large Discus took to frozen blood worm right away, but the smaller juvenile would not eat. This went on for a few days. We went back to the LFS and they offered us a free sample of live black worm. All the fish in our tank went crazy for the live black worm as soon as we put it in the tank, excepting the smaller Discus >.< (and our plecostomus, who is just always feeding on the driftwood and nothing else). Even the guppies would eat whatever they could stuff in. I read a lot about this problem, Discus stress, and juveniles taking a while to respond to food. However, after a week without seeing the fish eat, we decided something needed to be done, but did not see obvious signs of illness. Our hope was that adding more Discus would help to bring the stress down and get this fish to start taking food. We went back to LFS and explained our problem. I saw two new Discus in the tank that I liked, but given our issues, the attendant aptly decided to feed the Discus and make sure they took food before selling us more fish. I will never again buy a juvenile Discus from an LFS without asking them to do this first. One of the fish I liked did not take live black worm put into the tank, while the other fish did. I bought the other fish, a purple (snake skin?) Discus, very pretty.

As soon as we added this new fish the Discus began some sort of communication ritual, swimming up and down and across the tank and trying to get the others to follow, and making several other gestures. Our non-eater looked happy swimming around with the other fish. We thought this might be the trick, but it still didn't eat, whilst the new fish did. The next day we found the new juvenile bullying our other juvenile around, pushing it across the tank. The large Discus would often go after the new juvenile, chasing him away from bullying the other one, but the new fish had a fighting spirit. Our non-eating juvenile became dejected, always hiding in the corner of the tank. We decided we needed to change this dynamic right away and added two more Discus juveniles two days later. Again, all the Discus engaged in some sort of ritual and our worrisome juvenile came out and engaged with the others and they all schooled around the tank, either following our largest Discus, or the for mentioned bully juvenile, who seemed to be engaged in some sort of power struggle. Despite this, none of the fish were aggressive and all were very happy and active. The two new fish ate when fed (I made them feed them at the LFS again first), as did all the other fish, except again our one juvenile. However, all the activity had my hopes high. The next day things did not look as good, our first juvenile went back to hiding, as did one of our new ones, which has since stopped taking food. Our bully juvenile was back to his old antics, harassing the others. The larger Discus only picks on this bully juvenile and chases him away from the other fish when he's up to his antics. The larger fish will also sometimes place itself between our bully and the other juveniles to prevent contact between them. I'm not sure if anyone else has witnessed this type of behavior. Also, this bully is not all bad. It has moments where it exhibits this bullying behavior but at other times acts peacefully around the other fish. Another thing to note is that despite the large Discus and the bully juvenile going at each other all the time, they are almost always together, more than any of the other fish. I watch these fish for hours every day and take notes on their behavior. I am such a nerd and am addicted to these fish and have become very attached to all of them.

Now that you have all that information regarding the history, water, setup and personalities of fish in my tank, I will explain the symptoms and issues. First, it has now been 12 days since we got the first juvenile and it still does not eat. As I mentioned, one of the new juveniles also stopped taking food, so we now have two fish like this. Yesterday, I noticed the one new fish laying kind of diagonally and sideways touching the gravel in the lower corner of the tank. The first juvenile is also doing this now and looks thin. They can also be seen way up in the top corner of the tank. Today, I also saw them laying sideways-diagonally on the sand, touching each other in a lower corner of the tank. It was very sad looking. They also spent a lot of time hiding in a hollow rock sort of ornament we have. Both fish poop white, but it is not overly stringy, and they don't do it often. There is a lot of brown poo that develops on our sand substrate every day (we clean it out quickly) so I know that at least most of the fish are pooping dark brownish. That said, I have noticed a clear, stringy substance that has been showing up attached to the largest ones fins. It looks almost like a very thin piece of fishing line coming off of the fin and has been shaken off and reappeared at least twice. I am not sure if it could be feces that got caught to the fin, something else wrong with its fins (they haven't healed yet from original raggedness) or some sort of mucus. ALL of my Discus will occasionally rub against the tank and/or the driftwood as if scratching an itch, but not excessively. I have also noticed the juveniles pecking at the large ones scales and he lets them do it. Additionally, after researching online I am beginning to think my largest Discus shows signs of malnutrition despite gobbling down black worms like crazy. If it is malnutrition, the fish was malnourished already when I bought it. It does look like the brow is pinched as it gets very thin above his eyes and there is also a sunk in sort of look below the eyes. My brother does not think the large Discus is malnourished, but I am also not sure if the fish is supposed to be as thin as it is back toward the tail region, where it gets very thin. You can also see the outline of a large bone that goes through the middle of the fish and I'm not sure if that is supposed to be visible. That said, the large Discus is very active and does not behave as if ill.

I'm really not sure what to do at this point. Based on what I've read it sounds like I could have an issue with either flagellants or worms, but I'm not sure which. 12 days seems like a long time to go without eating if it is stress alone for my first juvenile, but the other juvenile acting strangely has only gone two days without eating. Also, if the big one is malnourished that could also be worms or flagellants. If Discus don't normally ever itch themselves on driftwood then I could also have a problem with flukes, not sure. Stress, I am sure, is playing a part. I bought a bunch of API General Cure, which has 250mg of metronidazole and 75mg Praziquantel per dose. Am I on the right track? I bought a QT tank, 20 gallons, and set this up today. I put all the for mentioned product in it including live nitrifying bacteria but it has only been running for several hours. Would this even be safe? Despite spending all this money I am still not sure if I should isolate the two Discus in the worst shape or treat the whole tank. I don't feel comfortable putting the largest one in the QT tank as it seems too small. Maybe if I do have the flukes I should treat the whole tank? I am not sure if it could hurt the smaller fish, (tetras and guppies), to treat with this antibiotic. I, myself, have had to take metronidazole several times and it makes me feel like crap >.<. I have a chronic digestive and autoimmune disease that comes with all sort of complications. It almost feels like I can empathize with these fish on a personal level. I do know that if I do nothing I am going to lose at least one fish. Please lend me your thoughts.

[StriatedTiger]

I hope I wasn't too lengthy with my post. Here is a concise version based on the questionnaire if that helps. I do feel like I answered all the questions in the above post, but it can be good to have it all in one spot. I unfortunately do not have a decent camera at this time, but I will see if I can get a hold of something to post photos after work today.

1 and 2. Two juvenile Discus are not accepting food. One is on its 13th day without eating, and hasn't accepted food since being entered into our tank. It looks thin and weak. The other is on its third day, and first accepted food and then stopped accepting food. They hide in the corners of the tank or in a hollow rock ornament most of the time. They sometimes lay diagonally against the sand but not completely sideways. Typically they would lean against the base of a plant or ornament. They are pestered by another juvenile that is a bully, but sometimes they do get along. There is a larger Discus in the tank but it is not aggressive toward the juveniles. It occasionally has a clear string substance seen attached to its lower fins and may be malnourished. All my Dsicus occasionally rub against the plants and driftwood as if scratching an itch, but not excessively. We haven't changed anything specifically except for adding more Discus to help make them happy.

3. I haven't tried anything yet. I am worried about potential risks of dosing fish with an antibiotic. Anyone's experiences would be helpful. I did purchase API General Cure which has 250mg Metronidazole and 75mg Praziquantel.

4. 60 gallon, four juveniles in the 2"-2.5" range and one 4.5" Discus. 3 small bottom feeders and a couple tetras and guppies are also in the tank.

5. We change 40-60% of water and siphon tank 4-5 days a week.

6. Approximately a month. Thin layer of sand substrate. Approximately 1/4"-1/2".

7. No aging of water occurs. We treat our tap water with API Stress Coat+, Live Nitrifying bacteria, Black Water for softness, and API Leaf Zone for our plants. pH never changes. Consistently 7.4.

8. Temp is 84 degrees Fahrenheit. Test results from this morning. Nitrate is 5-10 ppm. Nitrite is 0.5 ppm. Ammonia is zero. chlorine is zero. Treated tap water is used.

9. Only addition is more Discus. We have a lot of plants in our tank though.

10. We started feeding live black worm to try and get our fish to eat. They are now hooked and won't take other food. Feeding is a few fingerfuls of black worms 3-4 times daily.

11. I will try to post images later this evening if I can get a camera. Thanks!

[warblad79]

Did you quarantine prior to adding new fish? You're WC is not enough, guppy is not ideal when mixing with discus. Never buy from lfs unless if know where they came from. You need further research it seems your knowledge is limited in my opinion. Discus is not like any other fish and they need a certain requirements

[StriatedTiger]

Hi. Thanks for your thoughts. It is easy to move the guppies since they don't require much, and I've been considering doing this. I look at buying Discus from LFS like getting a pet from the humane society. I am not going to get fish in prime condition, but I have a chance to give them a better life. Does that make sense? You also know exactly what you are getting in terms of the appearance of fish since you can view them first. You can also take measure of the attitude of the fish. Discus at the LFS come from a variety of places, including a mass distributor and local Discus breeders. They don't keep track of which came from where unfortunately. >.< What is the major concern with WC? The 0.5 ppm nitrite or the 5-10 ppm Nitrate? I can always do a more massive water change to lower nitrates. Thanks.

[warblad79]

Hi. Thanks for your thoughts. It is easy to move the guppies since they don't require much, and I've been considering doing this. I look at buying Discus from LFS like getting a pet from the humane society. I am not going to get fish in prime condition, but I have a chance to give them a better life. Does that make sense? You also know exactly what you are getting in terms of the appearance of fish since you can view them first. You can also take measure of the attitude of the fish. Discus at the LFS come from a variety of places, including a mass distributor and local Discus breeders. They don't keep track of which came from where unfortunately. >.< What is the major concern with WC? The 0.5 ppm nitrite or the 5-10 ppm Nitrate? I can always do a more massive water change to lower nitrates. Thanks.

I've been successfully breeding and raising fry since 2009. My WC change routine is between 50%-150% per day and the results are always excellent. I know some people can't commit to this tedious routine but is a must for discus.

[StriatedTiger]

I've been successfully breeding and raising fry since 2009. My WC change routine is between 50%-150% per day and the results are always excellent. I know some people can't commit to this tedious routine but is a must for discus.

I hear you. It is definitely sound advice and I've read also that more aggressive WC is helpful especially for juvenile Discus. My plan is to move the fish that aren't responding well to another tank, and try a more aggressive WC routine of 80% daily. I want to move these fish because they are more docile and I am hoping less competition for food will also help. I don't know enough to say for sure they are sick, so trying more aggressive WC first makes a lot of sense. Though I do still think that there is something more going on with at least the one juvenile who hasn't eaten in a long while. Here is the thing. This fish is so docile it would rest right in my cupped hand in the water but still not take live black worm I am dangling right before its face? My current thought process is to see if they respond to this more aggressive WC in the new tank and if not try deworming the Discus. Since I don't know where they came from or what worms they might harbor it might help give them a fighting chance in that case. I am also curious if a little salt might help? Thanks.

[bluelagoon]

As mentioned,a lot of discus from local pet shops are prone to becoming sick.It might have nothing to do with where they come from.The major concern is that fish stores have fish coming and going on a constant basis.Along the way some of these fish carry pathogens and can be long sold by the time it is noticed.Meanwhile it has speed throughout the facility in other tanks.These fish may not show any signs of disease until weeks afterward.In the long run it might be more expensive to buy from LPS,when you consider how expensive medications are.

[StriatedTiger]

So I have an update. I lost a fish today. It was not the one that hasn't eaten in the longest time, but one of the newer Discus. It had come out of hiding and was actually more active today. It's behavior changed dramatically in a very short period of time. It began swimming very erratically around the tank, swimming sideways and darting around. It then went down to the corner of the tank, laid sideways, and stopped breathing within a few minutes of that. We did a massive water change today, draining about 50%, filling back up and then taking another 50% and filling up again, and then took another 20% or so and filled again. I have identified what the substance is that I saw caught on the largest one's fins. It expelled a sort of slimy substance that appears a lot like a lugie hawked by a person. A white cloud also quickly evaporated in the water when this happened. Is this an infection of bacteria? Thanks.

[nc0gnet0]

need pictures, it really is a must.

[StriatedTiger]

Hi guys, I have an update. After losing the two juveniles, things had calmed down quite a bit. Adding some aquarium salt during our water changes seemed to help out. For several days, the remaining three Discus were behaving in the fashion you'd expect. Coming to the top of the tank, eating well, schooling together. Now we have some obvious slime coat issues going on with two of the fish, and the mucus that our larger Discus was expelling has gotten worse. I went out and bought a camera so that I could provide some footage.

https://youtu.be/4I4IEMfyDHo

[StriatedTiger]

Here is a short video that shows some of the Mucus our larger Discus exudes. I didn't get it coming out of him, but was able to take a shot of it stuck to some driftwood after it was expelled.

https://youtu.be/mxdB4b2sEOc

[bluelagoon]

Hi,I did not read all that post,too long for me,but that dark discus has been sick for months to be that thin.

[Ryan925]

The third fish looks extremely skinny

[Kyla]

the video will be really helpful for ppl recommending treatment. im not going to recommend treatment but i will make a few pointers.

1) these fish were very sick before you purchased them

2) like u, i used to feel as though buying sickly fish was "giving them a second chance" but over the years i have changed my view on this for a few reasons.
a) buying sick fish supports the lfs and basically condones their poor husbandry and promotes the selling of more sick fish to other customers
b) for every sick fish i bought, the lfs brought in another sick fish, so it was a cycle of tradegy
c) buying fish from reputable suppliers (such as the vendors listed on the simply forum) supports those individuals to continue offerring healthy, well cared for fish to customers

3) treating fish in the main tank with plants and sand etc can reduce the effectiveness of treatment, plus (as u mention in the video) it may harm ur plants. a quarantine tank is highly recommended, and can be kept for future fish purchases, to ensure that new fish are healthy before adding them to your main tank (and u eventually may need to get more discus, as they prefer to be in groups)

4) when the fish clamp their fins to their body, shimmy, scratch, turn dark etc it shows that something is irritating them (eg parasites, protozoans, flukes, poor water, bacteria etc). even the one that u say looks "good" because of its light colour is slightly clamping his fins. their fins should be fully erect most of the time and they should have nice thick foreheads and round robust bodies... as u keep discus longer u will start to get an eye for what a healthy discus looks like and how it acts, even the way it swims and orients its body will communicate its health to u

5) where r u getting the live foods from? some ppl like feeding live foods but i am wary of them because i cannot gurantee they wont carry pathogens into the tank. i would feel safer feeding the freeze dried black worms or frozen fish foods

6) i am sorry ur first experience with discus is turing out to be a difficult one... but u seem eager to learn and u obviously care for ur fish a great deal! you are in the right place, so hopefully u can turn things around for ur fish. these fish, if they survive, may never grow to their full potential, but they can teach you a lot along the way

good luck! def keep us updated

[Kyla]

just read more of ur post and it seems u already have the QT tank, which is great!

i wanted to also note: adding so many discus and other fish together is a recipe for disaster. if even one of the fish was carrying a pathogen, all of them would now be exposed. in the future, if it is possible to get all ur fish at the same time from the same supplier (at roughly the same size), that is a safer method and lessens the risk of contamination. many suppliers will let u choose fish from pictures or video as well, so u can see them before u purchase them.

using fish to cycle ur tank is also dangerous, because those fish can carry disease. the safest method for cycling a tank is by using pure ammonia to grow ur own beneficial bacteria. that way u know for sure ur tank is not harbouring disease or parasites or protozoans etc before u add ur new fish