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Thread: small discus hatchery , ready to throw in the towel , due to gill flukes !

  1. #16
    Registered Member jimg's Avatar
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    Default Re: small discus hatchery , ready to throw in the towel , due to gill flukes !

    just want to add too. I wouldn't treat small fish get rid of all that have it, clean up the parents then try again. maybe keep a couple to scope later on to see how treatment is going
    Jim

  2. #17
    Registered Member smsimcik's Avatar
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    Default Re: small discus hatchery , ready to throw in the towel , due to gill flukes !

    Quote Originally Posted by jimg View Post
    I tried for a couple years every suggested treatment and none worked except the kursuri wormer plus. but, for it to wipe out the flukes i had to use it ,if I remember right, once every 3 - 4 weeks for at least 8 months. no need to remove filters just large wc after a few days. i do not like pp treatments on fish.
    If you had luck with Kursuri Plus wormer, you were very lucky. It's nothing more than flubendazole and a buffer. There have been several articles in the veterinary journals in recent years about certain fluke populations becoming resistant to flubenbazole along with prazi and some of the organophosphtes. Those drugs have been on the market for so long, repeated treatments with them have allowed some flukes to develop resistance to them.
    Oxidizers like PP and formalin are the only treatments flukes can't become resistant too.
    Last edited by smsimcik; 05-06-2018 at 11:53 AM.

  3. #18
    Registered Member jimg's Avatar
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    Default Re: small discus hatchery , ready to throw in the towel , due to gill flukes !

    i would not consider it lucky i have extensively gone through years of using different methods the one that works the least was pp which only burns the gills. i scoped for my results and also sent quite a few discus to various vets and university of fla lab,
    if an oxidizer can melt a fluke imagine what it can do to the sensitive gill membranes. i can't tell you the many different methods I have had people come up with using like dmso with meds,cocktails of all sorts as well as many home mixtures none worked for me and I also tried different doses and durations of pp to know it don't work.
    Jim

  4. #19
    Registered Member smsimcik's Avatar
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    Default Re: small discus hatchery , ready to throw in the towel , due to gill flukes !

    Ok dude, have it your way. Lol.

    Andrew Soh is the one who came up with the treatment with oxidizers and tank disinfection, not me. It's not a 1 or 2 time treatment with PP. Go back and read the link I provided earlier that descibes his protocol. I'm pretty sure he has more knowledge and experience eraticating flukes than you and me put together.
    Over the years I too have tried many treatments including flubendazole, ivermectin, fenbendazole, levamisole, organophosphates, praziquantel and dmso. The most effective was Andrew's method in that the flukes were never a problem after that. All the drugs I listed only gave temporary relief even after multiple repeated doses.

    You are right that oxidizers can burn gills but they don't have to if dosed properly (2-4ppm). That's why Andrew recommends a salt treatment and a rest period after dosing with oxidizers. Even if the gills are damaged, they can quickly heal.
    I have used his treatment method on my own discus and did not lose a single discus to gill damage or anything else.

    I'm also a veterinarian and I have successfully treated several of my clients' discus using Andrew's method with minimal gill damage and no fish deaths.
    I can't tell you how much time and money my clients have wasted over the years treating a tank a few times with Prazi Pro or Kursuri Plus wormer only to have flukes come back in a few weeks.
    Last edited by smsimcik; 05-06-2018 at 04:01 PM.

  5. #20
    Registered Member jimg's Avatar
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    Default Re: small discus hatchery , ready to throw in the towel , due to gill flukes !

    look "dude" LOL... I gave my advise from what has proven to work for me and that i do not like using pp or have ever seen it work, for me, i don't care what you read from anyone or anywhere I was giving my personal proven experience did not ask for you to stick your nose in an argue because you THINK your advise is better. I scoped after all treatments including andrew sohs, have you?, I doubt you know for a fact yours are fluke free . never met a real vet that follows what he read in a fish book lol! just the reason I don't post here, every time you do got some idiot with nothing better to do than argue about what thinks
    Jim

  6. #21
    Registered Member smsimcik's Avatar
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    Default Re: small discus hatchery , ready to throw in the towel , due to gill flukes !

    Damn you're touchy.
    If you don't want to use PP don't. Just because PP didn't work for you doesn't mean no one else should ever use it.
    I was just relating my proven personal experience, same as you. I just wanted to share my experience and info with some of the newer folks here. I can see you're not interested in learning anything new, but maybe others here will give Soh's method a look.
    And yes I do know how to use a microscope and know for a fact the fish are pretty much fluke free after they have been treated using Soh's method. At least they show no more symptoms, which is pretty much the goal.
    Last edited by smsimcik; 05-06-2018 at 06:24 PM.

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    Default Re: small discus hatchery , ready to throw in the towel , due to gill flukes !

    I have used PP as well as kusuri and sterazin ( formalin based )and a few others, my understanding of the problem is that the fluke is not very difficult to eliminate but the difficulty is that the eggs will hatch in the mean time you will get cross contamination , so any of the above chemicals will kill the fluke but Andrew soh's method is about how to minimize cross contamination, eggs problems ,minimize gill damage but people have to under stand that they are dealing with poisons and these treatments are not walk in the park for the fish but if done carefully you might be lucky and get rid of flukes .
    In my experience Andrew soh's method is the most effective approach.

  8. #23
    Registered Member smsimcik's Avatar
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    Default Re: small discus hatchery , ready to throw in the towel , due to gill flukes !

    Yes Sayid, adult flukes are relatively easy to kill. Provided you are using a drug they haven't developed resistance to. It's the hard-to-kill eggs that that cause problems with recurrence.
    Last edited by smsimcik; 05-07-2018 at 08:27 AM.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: small discus hatchery , ready to throw in the towel , due to gill flukes !

    well guys
    after 2 weeks of dosing wormer plus , it is clear that this does not work either .
    so i am closing my system down and wonder how to kill all my fish in the most humane manner .
    there is about 100 of them .
    i have exhausted all options .
    i also have my system for sale , 37 tanks , central filtration ,cost about $20,000.- to build .

  10. #25
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    Default Re: small discus hatchery , ready to throw in the towel , due to gill flukes !

    Quote Originally Posted by klr-dude View Post
    well guys
    after 2 weeks of dosing wormer plus , it is clear that this does not work either .
    so i am closing my system down and wonder how to kill all my fish in the most humane manner .
    there is about 100 of them .
    i have exhausted all options .
    i also have my system for sale , 37 tanks , central filtration ,cost about $20,000.- to build .
    Flukes can be very hard to eradicate. Frustrating as all heck. In most cases though discus will carry them asymptomatic unless there is a heavy infestation or they are fry.

    It sounds like youve tried everything but I wonder if you tried a simple salt dip to new clean tanks. Much like with pp flukes can not become immune to Salt. They can not become immune to salt's osmotic effects nor pps oxidizing. Salt dips are probably the most over looked and most useful tool for external parasites. They are labor intensive but if your fish are valuable to you it may be worth trying.

    Also you are in Canada?...Have you contacted University of Guelph? maybe they can help.Hobbyists here in the past have gotten help there.

    My last suggestion. If you have truly tried all these treatments and they dont work you have got to have the some seriously tough flukes.Its not at all common for resistence to everything to occur like this.Resistence has been reported to various things but mechanical killers like pp or salt dips is just not something resistence is likely in. More likely is an insufficient treatment regime...so I would look closer there... but still another option for you even if all this is a fact and you have super bugs is to artificially hatch your pairs eggs. Start your hatchery over without losing your current stock. Its the number one benefit of artificial rearing. It also will let you restock quickly.

    Some thoughts as Id hate to see you throw in the towel over a nuisance parasite like flukes.

    hth,
    Al
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 05-14-2018 at 05:36 PM.
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  11. #26
    Registered Member jimg's Avatar
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    Default Re: small discus hatchery , ready to throw in the towel , due to gill flukes !

    may be possible your main problem is not flukes, but that's what you are seeing scoping. when they are weakened by other means it is possible flukes will take advantage. If you did the fluke treatments, either of them, and saw a break in whatever they are doing to make you feel flukes are whats bothering them, ie erratic swimming darting, scripting against objects etc, for a short while then I would think your right about flukes, but if it made no improvement that lasted a few weeks or so I would look at something else effecting them. I agree will Al on the salt dips I have always had my greatest success with 3% salt dips for unknown problems like things I could never find bacteria wise or scoping. I would think some other type of protists or whatever, I never had just salt dip eradicate flukes like wormer plus did, but possible. I have sucsessfully quite a few times treated the darting ,flashing, swimming upside down in circles etc with salt dips, even dime size wild altums. The only thing I see a task is to treat all of them with salt dips. maybe like I mentioned earlier keep just the parents lose the rest start over in clean tanks after each treatment. I would do 3% salt dips every other day for at least 3 treatments them into cleaned tanks no filters just massive 2X daily water changes if you see improvement go on to wormer plus for about 8 months like the directions suggest. just curious didn't you see improvements with the formalin?
    Jim

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    Default Re: small discus hatchery , ready to throw in the towel , due to gill flukes !

    i heard that salt does not kill gill flukes .
    so what is the point , transferring the fish with flukes from tank to tank ?
    i don't get it .

  13. #28
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    Default Re: small discus hatchery , ready to throw in the towel , due to gill flukes !

    you can't buy formalin in canada anymore , neither can you buy malachite green .
    i used what i had and that was it .
    too bad , our government is protecting us from ourselves .
    BTW gill flukes are hard to miss , in the last 6 months i have never seen a juvenile without them and i sacrificed about 80 by now .
    like i said in my original post they had life flukes before during and after 1 hr., 2hrs ., 6hrs , 12hrs , 24 hrs.
    just skin scrapes shows nothing , but the gills are inundated .
    i just now noticed a slight reduction in flukes by dosing 10 times the flubendasole , you can't see the back of the tanks anymore so much of the powder is in the water , oddly enough i had 2 pair spawning ,....figure that !
    i'm starting to wonder if all those medications actually have any active ingredient .
    i might be medicating with talcum powder ,.....who knows ?

  14. #29
    Homesteader Altum Nut's Avatar
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    Default Re: small discus hatchery , ready to throw in the towel , due to gill flukes !

    Sorry your having this issue klr-dude. You should talk to Jarmila at AngelFins in Guelph and see if she has a contact with University Of Guelph as Al recommended. Jarmila carries meds https://angelfins.ca/index.php?main_...7a46e1979c2a0f

    Hope you sort out your issues without having to close shop.

    ...Ralph
    "Success comes from knowing that you did your best to become the best that you are capable of becoming."
    -John Wooden

  15. #30
    Registered Member jimg's Avatar
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    Default Re: small discus hatchery , ready to throw in the towel , due to gill flukes !

    my point is maybe the flukes may very well be there but that might not be what is the majority of the problem. I'm suggesting something else is bothering them. they can have flukes all their lives and never show symptoms. Is it really bothering the fish or bothering you that you know they're there? I'm meaning doing the dips them transferring them into clean tanks to see if you can knock down whatever else may be affecting them. then deal with the flukes in long term treatments which will be needed. many times too when we treat the fish we expect to see no flukes within a couple days when they meds may not actually kill them instantly like bee spray. I never studied exactly how each med works, maybe some treatment sterilize the parasites so they live but can't reproduce or you may be seeing newly hatched parasites. that is what I like the long treatments. short treatments may not kill the tougher ones but longer treatments will. again I wouldn't waste time with the juveniles I'd be sure their gill are severely damaged and other organs from the meds.
    Jim

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