For those of you with large tanks...

[dishpanhands]

By the time they are 3 inches I am changing %90 three days a week and %50 the other days..

[Chad Hughes]

Cool. And yeah, with 150 juvie fish, a temporary tank, really, you'd have no choice, really, but to go BB, primarily bio-filter only (sponge), and super-massive water changes. David Boruchowitz was actually doing something very similar with Oscars in an experiment and grew them out under overstocked conditions to very respectable sizes. He uses his run-off/waste water, though, throughout his property. The average home community/discus community tank keeper, though, isn't going to be packing them in that tightly. I think it's safe to say that what works very well in one aspect of fish keeping may not work well in another, or there may be other solutions that will work just as well, or well enough as to not make a difference.

Excellent point!

[White Worm]

I certainly would agree with established practice. It's a proven method. Supporting a complete biological environment is not as easy as draining your tank and refilling it every day. That's the tried and true method, drain and refill. Why wouldn't that work? You're completely removing everything that a natural environment would. Mission accomplished. Thats my point, there is more than one way to remove dissolved organics, however water changes, at less of an interval, would still be necessary. That is natures way as well! It's got to rain at some point, right?

I have maintained a complete biological environment in a 150 gallon for about two years. It's original stock was 16 2" discus, 50 various plants, drift wood, sand substrate, nothing fancy. Outside of fish waste, food waste, etc. the environment is so efficient, that I have to add nitrogen (amongst other things) to it to sustain the plant life. at a 50% water change weekly, there has been no obvious impact on the livestock. Growth is averaging 1" monthly. Disease, none to report. Again, not saying that the pros are wrong, just that other methods do work.

I would agree that there are other methods but most of these may be beyond the scope or experience of your average discus hobbyist or fish hobbyist in general. There are many here that are beginners and that have not done their research into biological systems in which complete a sustained aquarium environment without the large w/c's. Some dont even know the nitrification process. The best advice is the easiest (change the water) and then each can experiment as they gain experience as it seems you have done. I dont do massive daily w/c's but I am only keeping adults at this point as pets. When it comes to breeding or fry, thats when I concentrate more on the pristine environment. If you set up a simple system for water changes, it only takes a few minutes. I can change 80% in a 85g and a 75g in about 20 minutes or less and I just sit and watch while it happens.

[Chad Hughes]

I would agree that there are other methods but most of these may be beyond the scope or experience of your average discus hobbyist or fish hobbyist in general. There are many here that are beginners and that have not done their research into biological systems in which complete a sustained aquarium environment without the large w/c's. Some dont even know the nitrification process. The best advice is the easiest (change the water) and then each can experiment as they gain experience as it seems you have done. I dont do massive daily w/c's but I am only keeping adults at this point as pets. When it comes to breeding or fry, thats when I concentrate more on the pristine environment. If you set up a simple system for water changes, it only takes a few minutes. I can change 80% in a 85g and a 75g in about 20 minutes or less and I just sit and watch while it happens.

Excellent point!

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

I would agree that there are other methods but most of these may be beyond the scope or experience of your average discus hobbyist or fish hobbyist in general. There are many here that are beginners and that have not done their research into biological systems in which complete a sustained aquarium environment without the large w/c's. Some dont even know the nitrification process. The best advice is the easiest (change the water) and then each can experiment as they gain experience as it seems you have done. I dont do massive daily w/c's but I am only keeping adults at this point as pets. When it comes to breeding or fry, thats when I concentrate more on the pristine environment. If you set up a simple system for water changes, it only takes a few minutes. I can change 80% in a 85g and a 75g in about 20 minutes or less and I just sit and watch while it happens.

Yes, there are many ways to do it...some work better than others, but they all work. As you said it, it just depends on the hobbyists experience/skill level. My own education/training is on recirculating filtration technologies, so I see stocking levels/filtration systems in an entirely different way. Want to know how many fish you "could" stock into a system? Go take a look at a commercial fish farm that utilizes intensive recirc technology. 1 pound of fish per GALLON of water. Its insane. And then you look at a common hobbyist with a few tanks that does daily water changes. Again, as you stated what works best depends on the individuals experience level. It all works...just that some are more involved than others.

-Ryan

[brewmaster15]

Yes, there are many ways to do it...some work better than others, but they all work. As you said it, it just depends on the hobbyists experience/skill level. My own education/training is on recirculating filtration technologies, so I see stocking levels/filtration systems in an entirely different way. Want to know how many fish you "could" stock into a system? Go take a look at a commercial fish farm that utilizes intensive recirc technology. 1 pound of fish per GALLON of water. Its insane. And then you look at a common hobbyist with a few tanks that does daily water changes. Again, as you stated what works best depends on the individuals experience level. It all works...just that some are more involved than others.

Ryan

Hi Ryan,
I know where you are coming from and I agree with you here on the scientific aspects of recircirculating systems.. .but I think not all fish species are grown effectively under the same systems so optimizing for a fish like discus may be a bit tricky......Something about that question on how many fish you " could" stock and what is "optimal" to stock is important...People need to consider what the desired outcome of breeding and raising these fry is....With Discus ...Its not just production in sheer numbers as you would a food fish or feeder fish..

The Goal with Discus should be to raise healthy, well shaped and well developed discus...


I wonder what the relationship would be between how many fish you "could" stock and how many from that kind of intensive system would be what we as hobbyists consider quality or A grade stock? I think if you tried to raise discus is an intensive culture recirculating system.....you could keep them alive and grow them like any other fish...but I have an unsubstantiated "gut" feeling that these discus in an intensive recirculating system would result in developmental shortcomings for a large number of fry.......Ironically, everyone I know that has ever raised discus from eggs to juvies of any size usually finds they encounter these developmental issues when they cram discus fry together and skimp on the water changes....

Water changes may have attained some religious status among discus keepers.. but even myths are based in facts if you dig deep enough...and though it may be a myth to some that frequent water changes are necessary to raise big, healthy , well developed discus....its a fact that water changes remove accumumated waste, decrease parasite numbers, allow for intensive feedings associated with good Growth and developement of Discus.. How much to change varies depending on tanks, equipment, water parameters, and hobbyists goals and experiences. My biggest problem with when people say that water changes aren't needed is that the hobbyists new to all this usually wind up paying the price when they follow that line of thinking as "advised"... Doing water changes isn't a guarantee that you'll raise great fish...but it really helps as a starting point by removing variables that more experienced Hobbyists take for granted, IMO.

So theres my 2 Cents on water changes and discus....and yes..I change water here.

hth,
al...doing water changes as I type

[Eddie]

Excellent post Al, one that I feel is a must read for every discus hobbyist!

Take care and change all that water with vigor! I'm doing mine in the morning since it's already late for me.

Eddie

[KDodds]

Agreed, excellent post, no one method is "bullet proof", whether it be a trout farm, natural system, or BB with 100% water changes. In that respect I agree that being "advised" to do things in any fashion has to also come with it the caveats that experienced hobbyists often forget. For instance, with natural systems, if you're not pulling out enough plant (or other) life that has bound accumulates, things are bound to, well, accumulate. Or, if you happen to be in an area where your water is "perfect" for discus, you may, as a beginner, not have experienced seasonal run offs that could, with 100% changes, potential result in massive, almost instant, mortalities. So, with any method, yes, caveats need to be stressed. Know your source water, test, test, test, that kind of thing.

Hi Ryan,

The Goal with Discus should be to raise healthy, well shaped and well developed discus...

Are you saying that this should be the goal of every discus keeper? Or, should it be the goal of the breeder who hopes to sell "show" quality individuals? Just asking because, while "show" quality enthusiasts may be the most active members here, which should be expected, of course, most people, IME, have a broader range of interests in the hobby and just really aren't that "into" discus, simply wanting to keep a few in a tank as a "pivotal species".

[brewmaster15]

Kieron,

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmaster15
Hi Ryan,

The Goal with Discus should be to raise healthy, well shaped and well developed discus...

Are you saying that this should be the goal of every discus keeper? Or, should it be the goal of the breeder who hopes to sell "show" quality individuals? Just asking because, while "show" quality enthusiasts may be the most active members here, which should be expected, of course, most people, IME, have a broader range of interests in the hobby and just really aren't that "into" discus, simply wanting to keep a few in a tank as a "pivotal species".

I made no mention of show fish... thats a whole different realm.

The Goal with Discus should be to raise healthy, well shaped and well developed discus...

If you keep any species of fish...you should always strive to raise it to be healthy, well shaped and well developed.. Each hobbyist will have to determine what that means to them.... and since you "aren't really interested in Discus" that will mean a whole different thing compared to those that are very into discus...and want them to develop to their full potential.

regards,
al

[KDodds]

LOL. Of course I'm interested in discus, I would not be here otherwise. I'm just not interested in breeding them and selling fry. Agreed, though, any hobbyist should strive to keep the fish he or she keeps as healthy as possible, regardless of their ultimate goal.

[YSS]

It's my unsubstantiated "gut" feeling that the discus we keep are so delicate and sensitive and hard to care for because we "baby" the fry by providing near "Sterile" environment as they were being raised and the weakers ones don't get weeded enough. So, the weaks survive and look as if they are fine, and then after they arrive in the new environment with less than perfect condition, they get striken with illness. If the discus fry were raised in less than perfect environment, may be more developmental shortmings would result, but the ones that make it through, I bet, would be hardier. Just a thought.

[Eddie]

In my case, I don't breed nor do I raise fry but I do want to keep quality fish in my tanks. I am sure many others are interested in keeping quality discus as well. If I wanted to keep severums, I would have went to SimplySeverums.

Eddie

[brewmaster15]

It's my unsubstantiated "gut" feeling that the discus we keep are so delicate and sensitive and hard to care for because we "baby" the fry by providing near "Sterile" environment as they were being raised and the weakers ones don't get weeded enough. So, the weaks survive and look as if they are fine, and then after they arrive in the new environment with less than perfect condition, they get striken with illness. If the discus fry were raised in less than perfect environment, may be more developmental shortmings would result, but the ones that make it through, I bet, would be hardier. Just a thought.

Interesting gut feeling. and theres probably alot of merit to it as far as genetics go....

just curious.... and it doesn't affect your right to express your gut feeling here.. so don't take this negatively.... but have you had the pleasure of breeding and raising a group of these " sensitive fry" from egg and raising to juvies of a few inches? Its just hard to reallly appreciate what it takes to raise good discus fry until you've killed a bunch trying to ! and I think hobbyists that have bred them and raised them have a different view of waters role here than a hobbyist that buys them at a few inches and keeps them....perhaps thats where the road diverges.

best regards,
al

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Hi Ryan,
I know where you are coming from and I agree with you here on the scientific aspects of recircirculating systems.. .but I think not all fish species are grown effectively under the same systems so optimizing for a fish like discus may be a bit tricky......Something about that question on how many fish you " could" stock and what is "optimal" to stock is important...People need to consider what the desired outcome of breeding and raising these fry is....With Discus ...Its not just production in sheer numbers as you would a food fish or feeder fish..

The Goal with Discus should be to raise healthy, well shaped and well developed discus...


I wonder what the relationship would be between how many fish you "could" stock and how many from that kind of intensive system would be what we as hobbyists consider quality or A grade stock? I think if you tried to raise discus is an intensive culture recirculating system.....you could keep them alive and grow them like any other fish...but I have an unsubstantiated "gut" feeling that these discus in an intensive recirculating system would result in developmental shortcomings for a large number of fry.......Ironically, everyone I know that has ever raised discus from eggs to juvies of any size usually finds they encounter these developmental issues when they cram discus fry together and skimp on the water changes....

Water changes may have attained some religious status among discus keepers.. but even myths are based in facts if you dig deep enough...and though it may be a myth to some that frequent water changes are necessary to raise big, healthy , well developed discus....its a fact that water changes remove accumumated waste, decrease parasite numbers, allow for intensive feedings associated with good Growth and developement of Discus.. How much to change varies depending on tanks, equipment, water parameters, and hobbyists goals and experiences. My biggest problem with when people say that water changes aren't needed is that the hobbyists new to all this usually wind up paying the price when they follow that line of thinking as "advised"... Doing water changes isn't a guarantee that you'll raise great fish...but it really helps as a starting point by removing variables that more experienced Hobbyists take for granted, IMO.

So theres my 2 Cents on water changes and discus....and yes..I change water here.

hth,
al...doing water changes as I type

That is an excellent question...how many fish could you raise in such a system? What is their stocking threshold before stress becomes an issue? Is it possible to raise them to "A" grade? What kind of feeding issues would there be? That question I have wanted to answer for a while now. Just havent had time to do so unfortunetly due to time contraints. I may be able to try it here in a few months though. Biggest limiting factor for this, aside from system design, would be food availability/techniques. If you dont feed properly or to satiation you will get the typical wide range of size in a spawn. And I agree Al, discus are not a commodity item like tilapia are. But the question remains, is it possible? And if so, how could it be done (what issues would need to be overcome)?

Water changes most definetly have gotten to a religious status. Heck I get a mini anxiety attack if I know I havent done a water change in a few days (crazy, I know). Water changes are necessary for the reaons Al stated above, and then some. Even in an intense recirc system they are necessary to a point (just different scale). A recirc system allows a much higher stocking density due to efficiency of design.

Sorry to hijack your thread FLGirl1977....maybe its time to split this and continue discussion on a new thread?

-Ryan

[Eddie]

Sounds like a very interesting experiment Ryan. I'd like to see some tests done also. Any bit of plans that you have in mind or is this still in the brainstorming stage?

Eddie

And I'm sorry to Renee, thought this thing went another direction way back.