I need help again ....

[chipmunk636]

I just came back from work and one of my PB is facedown dead for at least 1-2 hour or more, and i have anoher one that is starting to lose motion:angry:

Here we go the best i can :

1-Problem :I cleaned my fluval 405 4-5 day ago . I was doing about 25-35 % wc every day on my 55 gal with 10 discus from 2.5 to 4" ( 6 pb that i got for 2 month and 4 tiger turquoise for little more than a week. I tried a 50-60% wc 3 day ago and my tank become cloudy like a bacteria bloom , so i went and got a drum for aging my water ,added a line for air bubble and a heater ,the fish became super stressed and bread super fast , yesterday i do about a 25 % with the aged water and the tank is still cloudy , like i'm doing too much wc with not enough dechlorined water.I also messed up with the sand in the tank trid to remove some to get a cleaner tank.


2 symptom : fish bread super fast , super stressed when i show up they can hit the glass or just move fast, no other symptom , they eat but 50% less and lots slower, take 1-2 hour to eat a square of bloodworm .

3: treatment : only added a spoon of salt each day for the last 3 day

4 tank is running for little more than a year,55 gal , fluval 405, 10 discus from 2.5 to 4"

5 wc regime : this was a single piranhas tank for 1 year , moved out couples month ago , tank was running with 20 rasboras for the last month and i added 6 pb about 2 month ago , never go problem with 1 30% wc a week before , since i read here and upped the wc to dayli 25-35 i got couldy water , i tried a 50 % 3 da ago like i said thinking i was not doing enough wc .1-2 " of sand , about 20 live plants,no water aging except for now and the yesteday wc.

6:temp : 84 but swing from 81 to 84 , (added a second heater yesterday , its ok now )

ph:7.6 ( last color on my api test kit , maybe 0.1-0.3 point higher i suppose)

ammonia :0

nitrite:0

nitrates: 20-30

water was tested 5 min ago after i removed the dead pb .


added the 4 tiger turk like i said maybe 7-10 day ago

My own thinking is too much water change for the water quality i have , since i never got problem in two year exept one time when i do a filter cleaning and big wc the same day , got a cycle restart and has to do wc like crazy for a month to get the ammonia level acceptable , so that my own idea, i use tap water and i DOUBLE the dose with nutrafin aquaplus since the beginning , when i use the suggested dose i have to let the water sit for couples of hour or same cloudy water .

observation : my 4 tiger turk who are only in this tank for last couples of day are doing better , the pb seem to struggle more to bread and act skittish as hell , by the way my other 55 gal with 400$ of tiger turk is also cloudy from too much wc i suspect so i'm freaking a bit !

water has lots of pollution here and smell taste chlorine .

I tried to list all i remember , i will add more if it came in my mind

thanks a lot.

[Eddie]

Try switching dechlors, try using Prime or Safe. Are you adding dechlor to the tank prior to filling or adding it to the age container?

[chipmunk636]

Well i just tried prime forgot to list for that last big 50% wc , i noticed that i have no white film on the water bucket like nutrafin , what i do is fill 4 bucket of mixed temp water to get the closer temp , vacuum the tank and refill , i try to let the bucket sit at least 20 min sometime 1-2 hour with the product .

I am too scared of adding strai tap water in my tank and add the product after.

I just don't know what to do right now expect wait , ca i add more salt?

[Eddie]

Well i just tried prime forgot to list for that last big 50% wc , i noticed that i have no white film on the water bucket like nutrafin , what i do is fill 4 bucket of mixed temp water to get the closer temp , vacuum the tank and refill , i try to let the bucket sit at least 20 min sometime 1-2 hour with the product .

I am too scared of adding strai tap water in my tank and add the product after.

I just don't know what to do right now expect wait , ca i add more salt?

Always add the dechor to the tank and then fill, NEVER after.

You are using aged water right?

[chipmunk636]

No i don't do this , i put dechlor in the bucket and fill with tap water , let the product work for at least 20 min before adding the bucket to the tank , i was not using aged water since yerterday , in hope tu cure that problem .

you said to add dechlor to the tank and then fill , but my thinking is that my method is even better because the dechlor as only to treat the water in my bucket, not 55 gal .

explain me on this please !


can stress kill discus or a bacteria bloom ????? because i don't have any ammo or nitrites in this tank .

thanks Eddie !

[Eddie]

No i don't do this , i put dechlor in the bucket and fill with tap water , let the product work for at least 20 min before adding the bucket to the tank , i was not using aged water since yerterday , in hope tu cure that problem .

you said to add dechlor to the tank and then fill , but my thinking is that my method is even better because the dechlor as only to treat the water in my bucket, not 55 gal .

explain me on this please !


can stress kill discus or a bacteria bloom ????? because i don't have any ammo or nitrites in this tank .

thanks Eddie !

I actually add enough for the whole tank because I change close to 100% daily.

Bacteria blooms will go away over time. It shouldnt affect your fish, unless you were having ammonia/nitrites.

[chipmunk636]

You put dechlor in the fish tank and add aged but untreated water after ?

isn't be better to add the product in the aging tank lets say 1 hour before the wc?


So it seem i don't have much to do except wait ?

[Eddie]

You put dechlor in the fish tank and add aged but untreated water after ?

isn't be better to add the product in the aging tank lets say 1 hour before the wc?


So it seem i don't have much to do except wait ?

The dechlor works instantaneously. I drain my tanks completely, add Safe powder, then fill with aged water. My aged water tank gets filled and I never add anything to it, just heat and air.

Yes

[chipmunk636]

Ok didn't know that .

I will remove the other sick tonight for sure , its already worst than when i was back 2 hours ago .

They are the 2 smaller PB , btw my rasboras and my ottos (forgot to say) are seems to doing fine .

[Eddie]

Can you get a picture of the sick ones?

[chipmunk636]

Yeah i will took one just a minute .

[chipmunk636]

http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s519/flatspin636/001_zps4689d70c.jpg

http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s519/flatspin636/002_zps5fad07d0.jpg

http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s519/flatspin636/004_zps7f460b1d.jpg

[Eddie]

To me, this seems to be related to your new additions. You said you added some turqs about a week ago right? The pigeon never behaved like this before correct?

[chipmunk636]

Yeah PB are in the tank for 2 months , the turks a week,turks were breading slowly when i got them , now they bread fast, not as fast as my pb but still nowhere near what i see in video here and there, so the turk look like to suffer also ...



my Pb were fast breading since the beginning , they slowly got used to me and now its like they are scared of me , their dorsal are not deployed since the 50% wc .

I will wait and keep an eye on them .

[Eddie]

Its a tough call, but if you do have to treat the whole group, it will be tough in the display tank. Do you have another tank to hold and treat the whole group? Also, the main display tank may need to get broken down completely and sterilized and built back up.

[chipmunk636]

Well i have a 55 gal with 5 5" tiger turk from the same batch of the little tuks( not the same seller of the PB)

I have a 10 gallon empty but no filter to run it , i have spare heater and can always run a air line for bubbles to it , but no filter.

[Eddie]

A 10 will be too small. Don't mix the fish or they'll all get sick.

[chipmunk636]

Allright , the other just pass out..:(


http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s519/flatspin636/005_zps0f936529.jpg

http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s519/flatspin636/006_zps8a2442bb.jpg

Hope the others will survive.

[Eddie]

Sorry to hear, mixing fish can always be a risk.

[chipmunk636]

Thanks Ed

I learned the lesson ,the nexts one will came from here for sure.

[chipmunk636]

Update: My 4 other Pigeon are alive but the bigger one (chekerboard) has lost some motion a bit , he can't stand strait and wave from side to side about 45* , the turq are doing ok almost normal so your theori Eddie is making somes sense!

I fed 2 squares of bloodworm yesterday back from work and they was all gone in 10 min , but not all Pb eated , the turq did get belly full .

I'm out for the weekend for 3 days but i will have someone do a quick check everyday several times a day to make sure if a fish die he will be removed in time , i plan to not feed them during the weekend and no wc , water is still cloudy a bit .

My water in the other 55gal with 5 5" turq is now clear , fish eat well, tank is now BB and wow its easyer to get clean , i will do low wc routine about 25% each 3 day , nitrates is about 10 after 2 day with no wc .

Is their any problem with aging water for more than 24 hour like 2-3 day . because my aging container are all full with airation for 2 days now with heater in .

[Eddie]

Is their any problem with aging water for more than 24 hour like 2-3 day . because my aging container are all full with airation for 2 days now with heater in .

Nope, its perfectly fine.

[chipmunk636]

Perfect thank you !

[Larry Bugg]

Thanks Ed

I learned the lesson ,the nexts one will came from here for sure.

It doesn't matter if they come from here or somewhere else. What Eddie is telling you is you should never introduce ANY new fish from ANY source into an existing tank. Any new additions should always go in a qt tank for 4 to 6 weeks.

[chipmunk636]

I was speaking of quality of the fish also , my big one are ok but the smaller are defenatly not as good as what i see here , as for the qt tank , i don't know what to do , i don't want to have another setup just for that ... but anyway my next fish will be in their own tank since i will get rid of the pb/ small turq in the future.

[chipmunk636]

Update , I'm back from the weekend and i lost my bigger one , i wil test the water and see from there maybe a small wc, I think the other will recover, i got still one PB that is waving from side to side maybe 20* but didn't seem to get worst , the turk are doing ok and eat.

The other 55 with the 5 turq are doing great .

[chipmunk636]

Hey I just tested my ph on the 5 big turq 55 gal and its about 7.6, my aged barrel is little higher maybe 8.0-8.2 and my strait tap is 6.4-6.6 do you think that could have been part of my problem , i just started aging my water on the last wc.

[Eddie]

No, a gradual drop from 8-7.6 can happen. Depending on the alkalinity of your water, the nitrification process can cause your ph to drop. If your PH was 8 and crashed down to 5, then it could have caused problems. Also, if it were a water related issue, all of your fish would have been affected, not just one or 2.

[chipmunk636]

Ok anyway the aging thing will help ,i was doing 50% with 6.4-.6 ph water and the aged is lots closer to the tank ph .

The 4 turq come for food and the best looking PB , the 2 other stay near the bottom for now.

[chipmunk636]

Well i don't know if its the turq or the water the problem , my best looking PB is doing better and started to deploy is dorsal and is now eating , he as more peppering on is face , the 4 turq are doing fine , the 2 other Pb are now showing white dots on their body , one only maybe 5-10 dots and the other is a little worst , i'm so disapointed now and just don't want to contamine my other 55 gal .

ph is about 7.6-7.8 , no ammo , no nitrites about 10-20 nitrates , i add salt on wc .

[Eddie]

Well i don't know if its the turq or the water the problem , my best looking PB is doing better and started to deploy is dorsal and is now eating , he as more peppering on is face , the 4 turq are doing fine , the 2 other Pb are now showing white dots on their body , one only maybe 5-10 dots and the other is a little worst , i'm so disapointed now and just don't want to contamine my other 55 gal .

ph is about 7.6-7.8 , no ammo , no nitrites about 10-20 nitrates , i add salt on wc .

pictures?

[chipmunk636]

Well my battery is dead again , i will post some in couples of min/hours...

Its small white dots about 1/32 wide , look like its on the fish and not in the skin , all fish bread super fast , i think its my water , both tank are cloudy since i've done a 35% yesterday , i'm totally lost , how can i keep discus if my water is crap .

The first seller told me at first 1-2 50% wc max and the other 1-2 wc a month !!! thats strange i didn't really pay attention until now , and if i import good quality fish from vancouver , how i will be able to keep them healty if my water is so bad , the water station here use the water from one of the most polluted water of Quebec .

[Eddie]

Well my battery is dead again , i will post some in couples of min/hours...

Its small white dots about 1/32 wide , look like its on the fish and not in the skin , all fish bread super fast , i think its my water , both tank are cloudy since i've done a 35% yesterday , i'm totally lost , how can i keep discus if my water is crap .

The first seller told me at first 1-2 50% wc max and the other 1-2 wc a month !!! thats strange i didn't really pay attention until now , and if i import good quality fish from vancouver , how i will be able to keep them healty if my water is so bad , the water station here use the water from one of the most polluted water of Quebec .

You could always use RO and remineralize.

[chipmunk636]

I know nada what that mean ! I speak french and i never really pay attention at what is it since its already difficult for me to get my information , what that consist of in 2-3 words ?

thanks

[chipmunk636]

I tried something in panic when i see the dot 2 h ago and i just came back home now , i filled a bowl with tank water and saturated it with salt and put the 2 fish that has dots for about 20 sec , i got scared since they got paralized and took maybe 10-20 sec to came back in the tank , they got a milky slime coat reaction but now the fish show at least 75% less dot . the darker one almost none now , and they slime coat seem normal ..good move or not ?

http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s519/flatspin636/001_zpsf4f184e8.jpg

here is the one that show somes , you can 2 clearly
http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s519/flatspin636/002_zps23873604.jpg

http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s519/flatspin636/004_zps95f419be.jpg

[chipmunk636]

I just fed my new turqs and holysh*t glass is full of eggs !!! That's quite a good news !!!

I will need to start a tread in the breeding section haha.

I got thoses fish 2 weeks ago nov 08.


http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s519/flatspin636/011_zpse6ea88bc.jpg

[chipmunk636]

Update ...

My fish seem better , they all eat now except one but he seem to slowly recover, the aging water seems to help, i still have cloudy water ( not noticable until you look at the tank from the side )


One still show couples of white spot so i was thinking about retry the salt dripping , what do you think ?

[Eddie]

Update ...

My fish seem better , they all eat now except one but he seem to slowly recover, the aging water seems to help, i still have cloudy water ( not noticable until you look at the tank from the side )


One still show couples of white spot so i was thinking about retry the salt dripping , what do you think ?

Its worth a shot. I generally dont put the fiah back in the main tank after a salt dip as that is where the problem probably is.

[chipmunk636]

Yeah that make sense !

I will try maybe tomorrow, and i was thinking about removing all the sand and plants and put them in my 10 gallon as a plant farm tank , and just use a sponge filter powered by an airstone , maybe put some of my rasboras also , I was one of those that said that i will never have a BB tank because it look unatural but damn it is so much smooter on everything and i have already find more than one reason of why its so popular !!

i will look at my lfs for some sponge , i don't really know them , and i think i want to add one on each of my 55 to get more bb and maybe help my cloudy problem and simply get my tank cleaner , i can rinse my polishing pad on the fluval intake 5 time a day and still get lots of particule , even my bb 55 got the pad pretty dirty real quick , and i see debris in suspension in the water .

[chipmunk636]

Update: I think the fish will make it , they all eat but 2 PB just a little , but i see some recover...

I have a question : does the bacterie colonia is lower when we do lots of wc like that , like they have less food to feed? My other 55 gal with the 5 turq seem lots more fragile since i do lots of wc's.

Yesterday i was doing my usual 25-25 % wc using aged water and i removed i bit to much water so i use about 13 liters ( one bucket) of tap water with prime , tonight my tank is cloudy as hell with a solid .25 ammonia , seems like since i get aged water setup i can't go back to tap?

My tap water seem to have lots of chemical and smell chlorine a lots and taste, like i said i use like the double if not more of prime.

Should i do a small wc to reduce ammo or let the tank recover?

edit : what a noob... i just notice i forgot to replug my filter after the wc, my intake is cutted so i have to shut filter down to do wc, same question but i suppose i should do a wc right now .. hope the bacteria will not suffer to much

[Eddie]

Its a balance really. Having a fully established bacteria colony to start out is what matters. If you are cycling the filter bed with fish in tank, its will be a juggle to keep numbers withing acceptable limits. You shouldn't be having mini cycles if you are using a proper dechlorinator.

[chipmunk636]

I ordered a sponge should recieve it this week , My fluval 305 has bio ball in the 3 basket , no carbon or sponge in the basket , only the 4 long sponge pieces on the intake side .

Could i have a more efficient setup ?

I use a full cap of prime to treat my 45 liters barrel and it should be good for 200 liter.

[jimg]

[QUOTE][I have a question : does the bacterie colonia is lower when we do lots of wc like that , like they have less food to feed?QUOTE]
Yes

[chipmunk636]

Thanks Jim

Update : I have a little turq in my Pb tank this seems to turning dark a bit , he away from the rest but come when i present food , he seems to swim in food direction but not eat much , i don't know if the reason is simply a bad source where i got the fish or their is something wrong in this tank , you said that my little turq were all stunted , i suppose all my Pb are too now , the turq were breathing normal when i got them and since a week or 2 they all bread like crazy .

My 5 big turqs in the other 55 seems perfect .