Why so many water changes?

[bbrackeen]

I did search first, but I can't seem to find any good answers other than "discuss are really picky, they like clean water".

In the past I've kept many species of tropical fish, I've done reef tanks, kept anemones, corals, etc. I've never needed to do water changes more than once every 3 weeks unless something was going very wrong or I had grossly over populated my tank. In some cases my reef tank could go a couple of months without showing signs of distress.

While doing online research on discus for my new tank, I have been really floored by the amount of water changes owners are doing. Most seem to recommend no less than 2-3 a week, while some are doing 2x50%-75% a day.

Are such extremes really necessary? Generally I'm one for scientific data to back up actions; and I can't imagine the bio-load of 6 discus would require such a regiment with adequate filtration in an adequate sized tank (especially if you had lots of plants consuming the nitrates).

Does anyone have any scientific explanations to why this is?

[Oscarsx]

A lot of us have living proof that large wcs = big discus.

I can't get into scientific proof cause I don't know of any, I started asking the same questions as you when I started.. My first batch didn't grow like I wanted them to be, very poor body and size, now days I'm doing daily 90 percent and getting mad discus growth.

I learned the answer by doing my own experiments, try it your self
:-)

- oz

[lipadj46]

Search and read....

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

[magewynd]

I'm not a scientist either, just a hobbyist. Maybe one of the science guys will chime in. When I don't do a WC at least every other day on the small to juvies size fish I start to have health issues. I feed heavy to get size on my guys. On my adults in a larger tank I can get by (maybe) on every third to fourth day. Have you seen how much poop six 6 to 7" discus can make in just a few hours let a lone a whole day. Here are a couple of pics of one month old fry an hour and a half (or less) after cleaning their tank. Fed beef heart flake after filling tank. Notice the poop already and no flake left. I feed 5 to 6 times a day.
http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab31/magewynd/Discus/2012-11-05150746.jpghttp://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab31/magewynd/Discus/2012-11-05150758.jpg

[discuspaul]

Large, frequent wcs (preferably daily) are essential for growing out young discus to good potential, and to avoid stressed fish, stunted growth, mis-shapen fish, and possible health issues. To do otherwise is asking for problems and disappointment.

However, if you're prepared to get adult, or near adult, healthy stock (4" to 5", or larger) - assuming your wallet permits, and from a well- known, experienced high quality supplier, then you can get by nicely with 2 WCs a week, perhaps even one, in a well-cared for planted tank, if you commit yourself to unfaltering good tank cleansing practices, w/substrate vacs, glass wipe-downs, no overfeeding, and very good filtration.

Is this the sort of thing you would like to do ?
(Without fail, I do 2 X 60% wcs a week in this tank:)
http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/discuspaul/lolliblues2

[bbrackeen]

Is this the sort of thing you would like to do ?

To be honest I'm still in a state of shock...

Very alluring fish, I will say... and your tank is beautiful (as are most on this forum).

Without a doubt it takes some serious consideration.

[shawnhu]

Wild Discus are generally smaller than that of their domesticated cousin. I believe we have been pushing Discus genetics for larger, rounder, and more colorful fish but because of this, they are being fed a high protein diet, and a lot of it. As a result, water quality suffers.

Does Discus require lots of water changes? Not at all. Are most Discus owners picky about their water changes? Definitely. It's been proven that frequent water changes are not necessary, but clean water is. Just like how reef corals are picky with their water, Discus are too.

We as hobbyists try to imitate the fish's natural environment as much as possible. And in the Amazon, the TDS can sometimes be very low, and very high. The pH can also dip very very low. This is what Discus generally like.

If you read my contest thread, you'll find that raising Discus in a non-traditional way is not impossible, but the results may be less than desirable. You can experiment and see for yourself. In this hobby, you'll learn a lot about the king of the aquarium what we call Discus.

[bbrackeen]

What I'm trying to determine is what the middle ground really is. Thanks, Shawn, I'll try and find your thread and thanks everyone else for your input.

[Second Hand Pat]

What I'm trying to determine is what the middle ground really is. Thanks, Shawn, I'll try and find your thread and thanks everyone else for your input.

Hi bbrackeen, I would suggest you determine what you are willing to commit to and go from there. I will warn you, these fish are addicting :D and for some the WCs, tank maintenance is fun.

[bogia99]

bbrackeen - will you be successful keeping coral without a protein skimmer and a sump ? how often will you have to change the water to keep your coral alive without the needed tools ? I am certain that it will be much more frequent than weeks or months. I was surprised to find out earlier that most discus tanks had only a sponge filter and maybe a HOB filter. Daily or 2/3 x a week of WCs was to compensate for that bare minimum tools requirement. I can't argue against their point because the fact proven itself is that they have been doing it for years and with successful big/healthy fishes. My recommendation is let your fishes tell you if your process is working or not. If frequent WCs is preventing you from enjoying raising discus then invest in filtering system just like a salt water system. Definitely an overkill setup according to a freshwater discus hobbyist but ... heck , save you time. And yes do start out with decent sized fishes +3.5"-4".

[ExReefer]

My recommendation is let your fishes tell you if your process is working or not.

Best part of this response. Every situation is different and your discus will tell you if they are happy. If I go too long between WC's, I'll notice a fish eating with just little less energy. I'll then do a large WC and that same fish will start hammering their food again. Lesson learned, I stretched it too far between WC's and that fish got stressed. Stress from poor water quality leads to slowly eating less and an unhealthy discus. For my group of six 5" fish in a 75G and the amount of food I feed, I need to do 50% WC every other day. I can stretch to every 3rd once in a while, but I need to feed when I make that decsion. Do you see what I mean?

[layolgy]

If you do not feed beef heart, and adult fish, you don't need too much WC.
Every situation is different, 10 Gallon per 1 adult fish , Once a week WC is enough.

[pastry]

To me, I think Oscar said it best. Yet all the others are spot on as well. I think a lot of hobby aquarists see normal growth in almost all fish with much less WC than you'd see with discus-focused hobbyist yet may take that growth for granted (if that makes any sense at all... may be coming out wrong). But when you finally get into discus and you're well-rounded with fresh water aquariums yet after you get about a half year into discus with a group of fish that were around 3" and they've only grown an inch-inch and a half (after 5-6+ months after they were already 3") then it's sort of a kick in the nuts.

Don't ask me why but discus growth at the growing stage of their lives pretty damn reliant upon water changes... or something in the water that needs to be taken out... or something in the water that needs to be replenished... or both... etc.


A lot of us have living proof that large wcs = big discus.

I can't get into scientific proof cause I don't know of any, I started asking the same questions as you when I started.. My first batch didn't grow like I wanted them to be, very poor body and size, now days I'm doing daily 90 percent and getting mad discus growth.

I learned the answer by doing my own experiments, try it your self
:-)

- oz

[Larry Grenier]

bbrakeen, Sine you have a background of reef tanks maybe apply some of those principals including an OVERSIZED REFUGIUM (google "emersed growth plants benefits") to your setup. Good filtration and infrequent water changes may keep amonia and nitrites at bay but nitrates will still build-up in a heavily fed tank full of fat fish. Find your own way to keep ammonia, nitrites, AND NITRATES minimized and water changes become less important. That's the way I and some others think anyway.

My next Discus tank is going to be low-light, dritwood, only Anubias, Bolbitis, and Java Fern for plants and about 100 gallons. It will be connected to another 100 gallon tank (no big fish) with good lighting packed full of submersed and emersed plants. I completely expect nitrates to be extremely low and water quality to be high with relatively infrequent water changes.

[relcaqua]

bbrakeen,

I agree a lot with bogia99 and larry grenier.

I was also intimidated by the amount of water changes some discus breeders suggest and puzzled at the minimal water filtration they use. Upon doing research I found that proper filtration and live plants can significantly reduce the amount of water changes needed.

The most helpful youtube video i found on this subject is a breeder that uses a refugium in a show tank. according to his testimony he has only done ABOUT 10 WATER CHANGES IN 6 YEARS OF HAVING HIS SHOW TANK (minute 7 of the video). he attributes this to the use of a refugium and live plants. If you check his show tank, it's pretty nice and his discus are some of the most beautiful and healthy i've ever seen.
anyhow, the name of the video is "How to set up a Discus Fish Aquarium - Presented by WetPets & AmericanReef."

I personally keep 4 small discus (2"-3") in a heavily planted 30 gallon tank with 7 cardinal tetras, 5 rummynoses, 1 SAE and 5 ottos. I do a 50% water change once a week. but I must tell you that I strictly use RO/DI water, Special plant substrate (ADA and Fluval) and I use an EHEIM 2215 to filter this tank. This filter is rated for up to a a 93 gal tank and the flow rate is 163 gph. I have adjusted the flow rate of the filter so that the current is not too strong (about 120gph), but even then I think my overall tank water is being cycled about 4 times an hour. the most helpful factor is that the biological filter media in my eheim is bigger than the suggested for this tank size. my advice is that when it comes to biological filtration (live plants and media) bigger and abundant is never a bad thing.

Anyhow, I don't recommend my set-up for adult discus. I will be upgrading to a 50 gallon tank once my discus grow to be adults.

good luck.

[lipadj46]

bbrakeen,
The most helpful youtube video i found on this subject is a breeder that uses a refugium in a show tank. according to his testimony he has only done ABOUT 10 WATER CHANGES IN 6 YEARS OF HAVING HIS SHOW TANK (minute 7 of the video). he attributes this to the use of a refugium and live plants. If you check his show tank, it's pretty nice and his discus are some of the most beautiful and healthy i've ever seen.
anyhow, the name of the video is "How to set up a Discus Fish Aquarium - Presented by WetPets & AmericanReef."


That video is great and you are not the first to use it as smoking gun evidence used against "discus nazis" and the "cult of water change", if you look at his breeding and growout setups you will see they are bare bottom and he does frequent water changes on his growout tanks, he even mentions that. That is his display tank for discus he trying to sell not a long term growout tank. He wants to sell discus so obviously he is going to make it sound as easy as possible. Of course you can have happy healthy discus in a planted tank with a sane water change schedule. Growing out discus to get optimal growth in a planted tank with weekly water changes is going to get you slow growth, sub-optimal shape and more than likely health problems, a sump with plants will help to reduce water changes but I've not seen anyone come with their own evidence that it is a substitute for water changes.

[discuspaul]

That video is great and you are not the first to use it as smoking gun evidence used against "discus nazis" and the "cult of water change", if you look at his breeding and growout setups you will see they are bare bottom and he does frequent water changes on his growout tanks, he even mentions that. That is his display tank for discus he trying to sell not a long term growout tank. He wants to sell discus so obviously he is going to make it sound as easy as possible. Of course you can have happy healthy discus in a planted tank with a sane water change schedule. Growing out discus to get optimal growth in a planted tank with weekly water changes is going to get you slow growth, sub-optimal shape and more than likely health problems, a sump with plants will help to reduce water changes but I've not seen anyone come with their own evidence that it is a substitute for water changes.

I saw that video too.

These comments by lipadj46 are very well expressed, and accurate as well, imo.

[pastry]

hopefully sometime over xmas i'll find the time to do a refugium but even if i do i'll still be doing my same WC's. saw that video as well and think it'd help with my regime but even my WC regime is still not relaxed. it's a wonderful idea but not the break through i think we'll eventually see in the future that cuts down the rate of WC's. i'm still waiting on that break through! hopefully not too distant future... i'd like to put that on my list to santa when it does turn up!

[relcaqua]

That video is great and you are not the first to use it as smoking gun evidence used against "discus nazis" and the "cult of water change", if you look at his breeding and growout setups you will see they are bare bottom and he does frequent water changes on his growout tanks, he even mentions that. That is his display tank for discus he trying to sell not a long term growout tank.

thanks for mentioning this lipadj46. you bring up a good point. I had only watched video one but after watching video two it is very clear that his technique for breeding and growout tanks is far different than the one for his show tank.

video 2 gives good insights about breeding and raising discus fry.

are there any other good youtube videos anyone recommends i watch.

thanks.