Cloudy water

[Tommy Saville]

I have 2 210-litre aquaria, each is planted (mainly with Giant Vallisneria) and has fine gravel substrate. I feed frozen beefheart mixes 2-3 times a day to the 6 Discus in each tank, plus very small feeds of dry food to the 10 Cardinal Tetras in each tank. I change 50% of the water twice a week, using heated tap water that goes through 3 filters (1 removes chlorine, one removes nitrates, 1 removes heavy metal ions). I hoover the gravel thoroughly at each water change.Temp 86F. Ammonia 0 nitrites 0, nitrates around 30. Each tank has drip filter system through silica noodles and fine polyfleece pads. The fish are in good condition. There are small aquatic snails in each tank, helpful in clearing up possible food bits. Also 2-3 cory catfish for same purpose. Both have been set up about 5 months.
Here's the puzzle: although each tank gets the same treatments and has the same occupants, one has crystal-clear water constantly while the other is always very slightly cloudy even after waterchange. I have examined the cloudy water under a good microscope, thinking the cloudiness could possibly be Paramecium or some other infusorian, but it appears as tiny "crystals". Any ideas??

[Cullymoto]

anytime I have cloudy water it is a phosphate issue. Find yourself a phosphate remover and place little of it in your filter system. If i'm right it will clear it right up. that said, dont leave it in there permanently. Your plants like some phosphates.

[Tommy Saville]

Have you any recommendation re which phosphate remover? Preferably not a liquid......

[Tommy Saville]

Just a reminder - the cloudiness is not greenish, therefore not algae-related.

[Cullymoto]

I use "pura Phoslock" it goes into a filter bag, gets rinsed in tap water, then goes into my filter. there are many types of phosphate remover exactly like this one.
I also use less than recommended for my tank size. I want to reduce phosphate, not eliminate it.
Yes, when I was using tap water for water changes my water was cloudy grey / white. this was excess phosphate that would with time settle out. this excess phosphate can contribute to an algea bloom, but i never let that happen on my watch. Good luck.

[Tommy Saville]

I'm trying to get the water company to tell me how much (if any) phosphates are in the tap water. Awaiting reply...
Thanks for the info, maybe Phoslock is available in UK.

[Dogvet06]

they sell phosphate tests so u can see if thats the problem

[layolgy]

I think water cycle broken.
You need sponge filter and bacteria.

[Tommy Saville]

Ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 30. Sponge filter plus drip filter. No problems with water cycle.

[Tommy Saville]

Because both tanks get the same treatment (and water), both should be cloudy if it is due to phosphates.The cloudiness is only slight but is worrying.....however, the fish are OK feeding and growing pretty well......

[Cullymoto]

"fluval clearmax" is another in filter phosphate remover. cheap too. not a very long life span for it so you would be changing it often. fluval is a bit bigger name howeever and should be easy to find. This is a theory to your issue, if it is a cheap way for you to attempt to reach clear water than give it a try.

[DerekFF]

If it is indeed phosphate related then youll be looking for GFO(granular ferric oxide). Chemi pure is a good one, fluval makes one, api makes a phoslock product. There are also other companies out there that sell GFO as well. I just know those 3 off the top of my head.

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[Tommy Saville]

"fluval clearmax" is another in filter phosphate remover. cheap too. not a very long life span for it so you would be changing it often. fluval is a bit bigger name howeever and should be easy to find. This is a theory to your issue, if it is a cheap way for you to attempt to reach clear water than give it a try.
Won't do any harm to give it a try and maybe eliminate the phosphate theory...thanks.

[Tommy Saville]

If it is indeed phosphate related then youll be looking for GFO(granular ferric oxide). Chemi pure is a good one, fluval makes one, api makes a phoslock product. There are also other companies out there that sell GFO as well. I just know those 3 off the top of my head.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
I'll try the Fluval version, it's available in UK. Thanks.

[Tommy Saville]

I've just seen an overnight miracle. The water is now crystal clear, although I have done nothing unusual. I wonder how long it will last? Which conditions have suddenly come right?

[lipadj46]

Cloudy water is from a bacterial bloom caused by a mini cycle, it goes away after the beneficial bacteria catch up. As far as phosphates causing cloudy water, when I did planted tanks I would add phosphates at quite high concentrations and never had cloudy water.

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

[lane mechtel]

I would agree that it is a bacterial bloom. I had this issue for some time and it only went away when I increased water changes to 50% daily and added beneficial bacteria with each water change for a couple weeks. Now I'm back to 50% every other day and my tank stays clear. Just my experience I hope its helpful.

[Tommy Saville]

I would agree that it is a bacterial bloom. I had this issue for some time and it only went away when I increased water changes to 50% daily and added beneficial bacteria with each water change for a couple weeks. Now I'm back to 50% every other day and my tank stays clear. Just my experience I hope its helpful.
Oops, spoke too soon, slight cloudiness has re-appeared. I'm going to try adding some Nutrafin Cycle to the filter pads after every water change. Should I also try increasing the ceramics amount? Granovit granules??

[lipadj46]

Oops, spoke too soon, slight cloudiness has re-appeared. I'm going to try adding some Nutrafin Cycle to the filter pads after every water change. Should I also try increasing the ceramics amount? Granovit granules??

Try some tetra safe start, it has the correct bacteria

[Tommy Saville]

QUOTE=lipadj46;949215]Try some tetra safe start, it has the correct bacteria[/QUOTE]
The "Cycle" states it has too ! I have that in my cupboard, and I'll use it and see. But I'll also get the Tetra Safe (belt and suspender attitude !)

[Tommy Saville]

Today, the water is much better once again. Let's say 99% clarity. It's 3 days since I did a 50% water change. I added 25ml Nutrafin Cycle to one of the filter pads. Only half the amount recommended for the size of tank, merely a little "top-up" for the filter. Seems to have worked.
Any opinions on increasing the amount of ceramic noodles, guys?

[lane mechtel]

Today, the water is much better once again. Let's say 99% clarity. It's 3 days since I did a 50% water change. I added 25ml Nutrafin Cycle to one of the filter pads. Only half the amount recommended for the size of tank, merely a little "top-up" for the filter. Seems to have worked.
Any opinions on increasing the amount of ceramic noodles, guys? Thats great. It Cant hurt to increase your biological media, I have always used more than required for the tank size. I would continue to use the cycle for a coupl weeks so it can establish itself in the filter.

[Tommy Saville]

Thats great. It Cant hurt to increase your biological media, I have always used more than required for the tank size. I would continue to use the cycle for a coupl weeks so it can establish itself in the filter.
Thanks, I'll do that.

[jimg]

I would just cut back on wc's, wipedowns and filter cleanings. just daily vacuum and maybe 25% wc's until tank get established. if you add the additives you will have to do the same thing anyway otherwise you will be removing what bb you are trying to establish. this way you have no need to spend $ on additive.

[lane mechtel]

I like jim's point on filter cleaning. I think sometimes discus keepers clean the filter more than they should, The less you have to disturb the BB the better. I'm fefering to the bio media not the hoses, prefilters, ect. I don't if you clean them often it,s just a thought. I hope it continues to stay clear. Keep us posted.

[Tommy Saville]

I like jim's point on filter cleaning. I think sometimes discus keepers clean the filter more than they should, The less you have to disturb the BB the better. I'm fefering to the bio media not the hoses, prefilters, ect. I don't if you clean them often it,s just a thought. I hope it continues to stay clear. Keep us posted.
Just done a 50% water change; there's a very slight cloudiness, possibly because I hoover the gravel quite thoroughly and it disturbs some bits. The filter should clear it (pumps 5x the tank volume per hour). I changed the fleece pads because they were soiled pretty badly. I added 25ml of Nutrafin Cycle, full of bb. To renew any possible bb lost. I didn't wipe the glass. The fish (6 4.5" Discus, 3 Corys, 10 cardinal tets) have had 2 feeds of beefheart plus a small serving of freezedried blackworm today.

[lane mechtel]

I'm in the middle of my 50% WC. Just wanted to share a SD thread, it's the only way I feed beefheart because I have PFS for my substrate.http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?34961-Carol-s-beefheart-will-not-disolve-in-tank!&highlight=vita+chem

[Tommy Saville]

I'm in the middle of my 50% WC. Just wanted to share a SD thread, it's the only way I feed beefheart because I have PFS for my substrate.http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?34961-Carol-s-beefheart-will-not-disolve-in-tank!&highlight=vita+chem
Is beefheart alone a sufficient diet? I thought they needed vegetables and vitamins too......

[Tommy Saville]

Still some slight cloudiness. I've added some ceramic noodles and some Granovit granules, all of which increase the possibility of BBs. Maybe that will help.
The big puzzle is that I have another planted tank exactly the same size, exactly the same filtration, same water changes, same feeding amount, same temperature, same everything, except the 6 Discus are bigger, and the water remains crystal clear !! I have no idea why there's this difference.

[jimg]

Still some slight cloudiness. I've added some ceramic noodles and some Granovit granules, all of which increase the possibility of BBs. Maybe that will help.
The big puzzle is that I have another planted tank exactly the same size, exactly the same filtration, same water changes, same feeding amount, same temperature, same everything, except the 6 Discus are bigger, and the water remains crystal clear !! I have no idea why there's this difference. because the bigger fish are keeping the bio active unlike smaller fish when you clean the tank and filters too much you are taking away from a small amount of bb. with larger fish more surface area gets colonized when bb gets fed so they expand. ever notice how an established tank with hardly any water changes is crystal clear?

[Tommy Saville]

because the bigger fish are keeping the bio active unlike smaller fish when you clean the tank and filters too much you are taking away from a small amount of bb. with larger fish more surface area gets colonized when bb gets fed so they expand. ever notice how an established tank with hardly any water changes is crystal clear?
What should I do, then? Reduce to once a week 50% water change? Or even less? Everyone's been telling me to up the water changes. It's so confusing to a comparative Discus beginner !

[jimg]

water changes all depend on your water,feeding stocking etc. if your having cloudy water it is either too much feed or not established enough. from what I gather without re reading the posts you were having cloudy water even with big wc's. if you cut back on cleaning and do about 25% wc's every other day and see how it goes. some believe in doing massive wc's not knowing why, just that that's what some others say. some have to, most don't. you have to find what works for you. many also believe the bio is only in the filters, that is not true it is a system. there is a difference in a tank being established and a tank being newly cycled.
i have fish less cycled more tanks than I care to remember so i tell you what I would and what has proven too work for me. massive wc's are great for growing fry due to more feedings, but that's it.
one way to know when you should up wc's is check nitrates when you see them about 30-50 change some water.
do a lot of reading on the nitrogen cycle and how filters actually work and gh,kh,tds
and ph. it's the most important things you need to know then learn your water. people give general advice on here as a guide but each situation is different.
newer people to aquariums often have the wrong idea about filters and how they work. they think that water goes through and the filter takes every minute micron of dust out and it should come out crystal clear, it don't work like that. a filter will catch bigger debris and at the same time feed the beneficial bacteria which different types of bacteria colonize and balance. that is where the nitrification process works it's hardest.
I am not that good at explaining what I mean sometimes so I hope you get some of this!

[Tommy Saville]

water changes all depend on your water,feeding stocking etc. if your having cloudy water it is either too much feed or not established enough. from what I gather without re reading the posts you were having cloudy water even with big wc's. if you cut back on cleaning and do about 25% wc's every other day and see how it goes. some believe in doing massive wc's not knowing why, just that that's what some others say. some have to, most don't. you have to find what works for you. many also believe the bio is only in the filters, that is not true it is a system. there is a difference in a tank being established and a tank being newly cycled.
i have fish less cycled more tanks than I care to remember so i tell you what I would and what has proven too work for me. massive wc's are great for growing fry due to more feedings, but that's it.
one way to know when you should up wc's is check nitrates when you see them about 30-50 change some water.
do a lot of reading on the nitrogen cycle and how filters actually work and gh,kh,tds
and ph. it's the most important things you need to know then learn your water. people give general advice on here as a guide but each situation is different.
newer people to aquariums often have the wrong idea about filters and how they work. they think that water goes through and the filter takes every minute micron of dust out and it should come out crystal clear, it don't work like that. a filter will catch bigger debris and at the same time feed the beneficial bacteria which different types of bacteria colonize and balance. that is where the nitrification process works it's hardest.
I am not that good at explaining what I mean sometimes so I hope you get some of this!
I'm certainly not "new to aquariums" - kept my first fish at age 12 and I'm now 88 ! I was in the aquarium trade in a big way for 30 years (1950-70s) and got a B.Sc university degree in zoology. But must confess that the bacterial part of filtration is a new concept. The cloudiness particles are visible to the eye, about 100th of an inch in size, rather like the infusorian Paramecium. but under the microscope they look crystalline.
I'll follow your advice re 25% wc every other day and see what happens. Thanks for your input.

[Tommy Saville]

Just did a 25% wc to each tank, including hoovering of gravel.

[jimg]

Sorry I didn't mean to make you feel new, just figured that area may be not up to date for you. I had aquariums since i was 12 also now 52, but until about 15 years ago I knew that I had to clean the tanks when I couldn't see the fish anymore and that when the water go low.....put more in! there are many opinions, but until I fully understood, (well still don't fully) the water and nitrogen cycle a lot of the guesses are eliminated. today anyway!
treat it like a system instead of separate things is what works best for me.

[Tommy Saville]

No offense taken !:) You're right in that I'm not quite up-to-date in filtration minutae whch are important. But I'm learning all the time. Trying your suggestions. Thankfully, the fish are doing fine. Watch this space......

[Tommy Saville]

Water perfectly clear today !

[Tommy Saville]

Up-to-date report...November 28. Water has been clear since last posting. Now changing 25% every other day, as suggested. I think that the success is propbably because the filter has finally matured, cycle complete. Thanks to everyone who has inputted on this thread....a great bunch of guys.

[lane mechtel]

Glad to hear that tommy. I also started doing 25% WC's as jim suggested even tho my water stays clear now, I am curious to see if my tank will do better with 25% instead of 50% every other day. as far as the beefheart goes, I also feed freeze dried worms soaked in a liquid vitamin. I use natures plus source of life liquid.

[Tommy Saville]

Further report. December 3. I have continued 25% water changes every other day. When the fleece pads in my overhead filters get really soiled I change them, and add some BioZym bacteria in case I'm reducing the BBs.The water has stayed clear throughout the 8 days of the "new tactics", and I'm so pleased ! "jimg"'s advice was specially useful and successful. Thanks so much, from Nottingham UK ! (Robin Hood lives !!).