I inherited some discus... Now what?

[GrayLadyPat]

Hi, everyone...
This is my first post... I want to thank you all for being here...

I have been lurking for a few days, and the information I have gained from you all is priceless, but I have a few questions that I hope you all can help with.

First, the backstory:

I have had aquariums for decades. My first was when I was 12-ish, and I have had them ever since. My grandchildren loved to sit in front of them for hours.

Setups ranged from standard community and guppy tanks to rift valley cichlids. I got out of the hobby for a few years, and recently dove back in with a 60gal. community tank with dual Rena canister filters rated for 45 gal. each. I added a lot of real plants (mostly swords and grasses,) and started to add fish. I had a dozen cardinals, 3 red-light tetras, 5 corys, and 3 red wag platies that a friend gave me not knowing that I detest live bearers in general... (Aside: Please, for the love of God, if you have fishkeeping friends, ask them before giving them fish as a present!!!) Everyone got along fine, and I was happy.

My normal pH from the tap is relatively low compared with other places I have lived (6.8 directly, 6.5 aged 24 hours with airstones.) So, I had to watch my pH in the tank very closely, and got in the habit of doing a 20-30% water change twice a week.

Well, to make a long story short, a dear friend of mine passed away. He left his fish tank to his niece but... he left the Discus to me. So, in my (formerly) community tank, I now have 4 sub-adult discus. They are beautiful, and I love them dearly. I am slowly bringing the temperature up to comfortable levels for the discus, and so far, there have been no casualties (amazing, since I always thought platies and corys were colder water fish.) It is about 81 right now, on its way up to about 84-ish (any warmer, the plants and other fish will suffer, any cooler and the discus will suffer.)

But, I know little but what I have read online about discus keeping.

In any case, my water numbers:
pH 6.3- 6.5 (spikes to 6.6 after water change)
Ammonia - 0 ppm. (or at least it won't register)
Nitrites - 0 ppm
Nitrates - <3 ppm
I haven't tested my water for an exact measurement of hardness, but from the tap, it takes forever to rinse my hair, and I have to be very careful how much soap to add to my laundry. Testing is coming this weekend.

The discus have been in my tank for a week or so, and they seem to be relatively happy. They're even out front watching me instead of hiding all the time like they were when I brought them home. They're eating well, and they're getting along with everyone.

So, here are the questions I have:
1. Are the filters I have sufficient? They are rated for 45 gal./ea. and there are 2 of them.
2. How much water flow is too much? I have a noticeable current, but the only issue I am seeing is that it is a pain in the hiney to try to catch a piece of plant that broke off and is now floating around in my tank.
3. Do I really need to do daily water changes, or can I wait a day between them? And, regardless of timing, how much water should I change? 20%? 50%? 80%?

Thanks again for all your help. I know I'm a discus noob.

And thanks for letting me lurk
Judy

[Cullymoto]

Im sorry to hear your friend passed, Hope all is well otherwise.
to the questions.
Your filter setup is perfect, just make sure to clean / rinse in tank water 1 of the filters everytime you do a water change.
do not worry much about the water flow if the fish can swim around to all areas of the tank your okay. If they are "pinned" against the side of the tank you would want to slow things down a bit.
While most on here swear by daily w/c, and have proven results from such practice. It is not neccessary. You will not have those fish grow to be 7" or greater monster sized award winning fish, but they will live long happy lives as 5" colorfull beauties. When you do do a water change, change as much as you can however. Having a planted tank means your nitrate concentration will be kept lower than tanks with no plants. daily water changes exist primarily to remove nitrate.
In general these fish are not that hard to keep, they will throw you a curve ball once in a while but thats part of the hobby. Keep their home as clean as you can, feed only what you have to and no extra. Good luck, happy discus keeping.

[pastry]

Hi Judy! You came to the right place. You'll probably get plenty to read in this thread from all the people on here. First off, sorry for the loss of your friend. Meanwhile, you're doing just fine as is. As for your q's...

1. Are they rated for a 45 gallon aquarium each or rated for 45 gallons per hour? Either way, you're still fine but if it's for a 45 gallon then if you wanted to turn down the flow then you could.
2. (refer to 1)
3. You'll find on here the best for discus growth is the more the better. You'll find people on here who change almost all their water twice a day and some who change maybe just half once a week. What you're doing right now is fine to keep them happy. If you want more growth on them (not sure their age... do you know approximate age?) then with a planted tank, substrate, tank mates, then as much WC as you can handle without driving yourself mad. As long as your not trying to raise discus to win championships then I think some where around 40-50% 3 times a week would be a good regime if you're okay with that.

As for your temperature... with the plants you indicated, don't worry about them suffering. At least I know for the swords. I have my swords, lillies, val, anubias, and more in 86 degree water (low tech, no fertilizers) and they're doing just fine. Not sure on the grass-types unless you're refering to a val-type. And all the fish will do just fine at that temp exept I'd keep an eye on the platies. Try about 82-83 and that should work. You may not like the platies but if those discus could eat the baby platies as they come then that'd be a great snack! I had wilds a long time ago that I would treat to feeder guppies once a week and they looooved the "hunt".

Take care and feel free to PM if need be. Again though, you'll find plenty of help here.

V/R
Elliot

[pastry]

Cully,

Why would she have to throw in tank water in one of the filters every WC? Sorry, just scratching my head. You mean clean on of the two filters several times a week? Just confused. Please don't think I'm asking in a bad way though! Honestly just wondering.

V/R
Elliot

[camuth8]

Hi Judy! You came to the right place. You'll probably get plenty to read in this thread from all the people on here. First off, sorry for the loss of your friend. Meanwhile, you're doing just fine as is. As for your q's...

1. Are they rated for a 45 gallon aquarium each or rated for 45 gallons per hour? Either way, you're still fine but if it's for a 45 gallon then if you wanted to turn down the flow then you could.
2. (refer to 1)
3. You'll find on here the best for discus growth is the more the better. You'll find people on here who change almost all their water twice a day and some who change maybe just half once a week. What you're doing right now is fine to keep them happy. If you want more growth on them (not sure their age... do you know approximate age?) then with a planted tank, substrate, tank mates, then as much WC as you can handle without driving yourself mad. As long as your not trying to raise discus to win championships then I think some where around 40-50% 3 times a week would be a good regime if you're okay with that.

As for your temperature... with the plants you indicated, don't worry about them suffering. At least I know for the swords. I have my swords, lillies, val, anubias, and more in 86 degree water (low tech, no fertilizers) and they're doing just fine. Not sure on the grass-types unless you're refering to a val-type. And all the fish will do just fine at that temp exept I'd keep an eye on the platies. Try about 82-83 and that should work. You may not like the platies but if those discus could eat the baby platies as they come then that'd be a great snack! I had wilds a long time ago that I would treat to feeder guppies once a week and they looooved the "hunt".

Take care and feel free to PM if need be. Again though, you'll find plenty of help here.

V/R
Elliot

+1

[GrayLadyPat]

Thank you so much for all your help.

My filters are rated for 45 gallons (not per hour) each. We have the outputs rigged for a spraybar rather than a single outlet (each), so the force is not what it could be.

I believe that one of them is almost an adult, at about 5-6" nose to the base of the tail, and the other 3 are somewhat smaller, about 4" more or less. I will be honest, I am not sure of the "strain" either, but two of them are kind of steel grey and marked all over their body with wavy blue lines (kind of stripey electric blue...gorgeous) and the other two look red from a distance, but when you get close, the red is kind of blotchy, with tiny black spots all over, like someone spilled pepper on them. I think I remember my friend saying that the red ones were some kind of checkerboard...

Anyways, I em enjoying them, but I have a bucketload to learn.

Cheers!

Thanks again!

[pastry]

Now this might be fun to guess without pics... I'm thinking the first are snakeskins and the second two are some sort of marboro-type looking that may have originally sold as checkerboards (and/or came from a spawn involving a checkerboard...etc)... just a guess without pics :)

Well if you ever get around to it then just know that everyone on here loooves pics!

Take care, Judy!

[GrayLadyPat]

I tried to post a picture, but it says I need to make some mroe posts, so... I will add one as soon as I am able.

I am loving these guys/gals more every day. They still haven't firgured out that I'm the one with the Noms, so they are still a bit timid when I walk up to the tank. They're getting used to everything, and they've staked out their territory, so looking for handouts is sure to follow.

Cheers from the Old Lady!

[pastry]

Judy, don't be afraid to just keep hitting the reply button and hitting a number until you have the right amount of posts to post pics (I think it's 10?). No one that I've seen here has ever been irritated by someone doing that (as long as they know it's for pictures!... :p)!

[GrayLadyPat]

I'll be sure to post more :D

I thought I would use this space for updates until I learn my way around the forums and find the correct threads...

So without further ado: Day 6 with my new babies:

The largest one I named Fido.... I know, it's funny, but he/she follows my male high-fin platy around like a dog...
The other red one I named Corrigan... as in Wrong Way Corrigan... he/she tends to swim backwards rather than turn around and go the other way. He also is the most timid one, and hides when the school of cardinals swim by too fast.
The most brilliant one I named Shadow (always likes the darkest places in the tank from which he/she can peer out at the world, then sneak attacks the others when they float by.)
Then there's the one with the really high dorsal fin... I haven't named it yet. But, he/she has some amusing behavior, so I am sure I will think of something suitable soon.

Speaking of which: The unnamed one has been exhibiting some behavior that I would like to ask about. Keep in mind that he/she is the smallest in the tank, at about 3-3 1/2 inches. He/she is part chameleon (changes color on a whim.) He/she will get right up in front of Fido and turn his/her tail at him and then "waggle" it almost as if he/she is showing off. I have never seen this before. He/she just started it this morning. Knowing nothing about Discus, is he/she trying to pair off with Fido? At what age do they try? and if that is indeed what's happening, are they like angelfish in that two of the same gender will sometimes mate in a sterile pairing? In truth, I don't want to attempt to breed them, but I am curious anyways, as my considerable experience with other cichlids has shown me that a mated pair can be quite agressive with other tankmates.

So many questions, and so little time... I am learning on the fly, so please forgive all the silly noob questions. Usually someone tries to learn this BEFORE one obtains them...lol

[GrayLadyPat]

Oh, and I forgot:

I have one that refuses to eat anything but flake food... odd, I know, but is that ok?

[pastry]

Everyone has their own opinions but I think that's great! I actually buy from some of the sponsors on here but also mix it with a little bit of the tetra flake stuff you'll find anywhere. I have the Super Beef Heart Flake that you can find a lot of info on here and very inexpensive, ships fast... just do a search on here with the acronym "SBHF" and ask others what they think. You'll find other different sorts of flakes from the same vendor!

But yes, again, flakes I think are the hardest to get discus to eat but once done then I think with a good mix you can get them to take in different/more variety of nutrients. I actually wish more people would chime in on this one for you. Soo much info from a lot of the experienced people here... a lot of the same info yet a lot of differences as well.

[GrayLadyPat]

Day 7:
I got up this morning to discover that some of my cardinals are missing... I bet I know who did it... it seems that one is rather full, and isn't eating breakfast.

Also trying to take pictures. It seems that I can't get them to hold still long enough....every single one I have tried is blurry. I will keep trying different settings and I will have some decent ones by the time I can post pictures.

I am falling in love with these guys. When I received them, all I could think about was how much work they were going to be, and how much of a constant reminder of my friend they would be. Now, I can see why my friend was so enamored of them.

Next noob question: I know we're not supposed to feed too much, but how do you tell if you are feeding too little, other than random dither fish disappearing?

[pastry]

Ha! Guess somebody had a few expensive snacks :) I tried along time ago establishing a school of cardinals with my wilds and noticed them dissappear one by one. I bought a few dozen feeder guppies for the same group once in awhile and watched that group of wilds have a ball hunting them down!

As for your question: I'd say as much as they can consume in 5-10 mins and if there are little scraps here and there then I'm sure your cory's will vacuum it up.

Well for some good reading on pictures, I can't remember where in here but there's some good threads/info for tips on taking pics. If you have some time then I actually think you'll find it more entertaining to read than you might think. Try it out! I have to "make myself" take pics of mine so that I can see the growth over time but as soon as I start doing it each time then I can't stop!

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Judy and welcome for Simply. You are certainly getting a crush course on keeping discus. Sounds like you are doing very well. I have seen the tail wagging you are referencing too. I believe it is called tail slapping and as best I can tell it is a pecking order behavior.
Pat

[pastry]

Pat, what took you so long? :p How's the horse? Hope he's able to walk normal again ;)

Judy, Pat's good stuff and I'd definitely use her and others like her as good sounding boards whenever you have questions or ideas with your new disus. Also I think you've been bitten by the discus bug and sounds like you're keeping them very happy.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Elliot, horse is fine and eating normal so all good. Thanks for the kind words :o

[Cullymoto]

Cully,

Why would she have to throw in tank water in one of the filters every WC? Sorry, just scratching my head. You mean clean on of the two filters several times a week? Just confused. Please don't think I'm asking in a bad way though! Honestly just wondering.

V/R
Elliot

Yes I am suggesting that she take the media from a cansiter and rinse it out inside the tank using tank water during or immediately before a water change. also, I suggest that she alternate which canister she cleans out. Doing this prevents the canister from building up massive organic material inside causing high nitrate production. Rinsing it inside the tank, or using tank water keeps alive all of the beneficial bacteria that live inside the media.
No offence taken to your question. I apalogize for not being clearer in my original post.

[pastry]

I totally agree with the need for cleaning the canisters and strictly using tank water for cleaning it but for the frequency you list I never thought anyone would need to clean the filters that often. I clean my canister about once every two to three months (using tank water water only and replacing just a small portion of the media with new media). Is that the frequency that most use (every wc or every other wc?)?

[Cullymoto]

The goal of hobby fish keeping ultimately is having healthy fish. nevermind growth, breeding etc. If they are not healthy nothing else matters. The cleaner the water, the healthier the fish.
simply put, the cleaner you can keep the discus environment - the happier the discus will be. if what your doing works for you thats great! I clean my canister ( rated for 160 gal tank, running on a 125gal ) every week. it always has organic junk in it.

[GrayLadyPat]

I have been cleaning my canisters once a month on a rotating basis, but I rinse the particulate sponges in the tank every time I do a water change over 40%. That way, I am sure that I have plenty of the microorganizms I need without affecting the chemistry too much. I found early on that if I cleaned both filters at the same time the bacteria seemed to stall out a bit. By rotating them out, I have maintained a better colony, even though I never use anything but the aquarium water to rinse, usually right before a larger water change. I do run carbon in one filter right now, because I am making sure that any meds that may have been lingering from my time before discus are gone. I will do away with the carbon with the next cleaning as scheduled.

About the cardinals: The ones that were missing showed up, so they may have been hiding well earlier today. As far as the one who wasn't eating and looked fat, I found that he is hoovering up the pellets I feed the corys when the rest don't leave anything for them. It seems that he/she really really likes them. As long as my poor corys don't starve, I'll be ok. :D

Next noob question: I have read that a lot of people use foam pre-filters... Why is that? is the staged filtering of the canisters not enough?

[Cullymoto]

It's a terrible sight to see one of your discus stuck to the filter intake tube... This always results in a fatality. The sponge creates a larger area for the tube to draw water from thus having less negative pressure on the tube. no fish would ever get stuck to the sponge. A positive side effect is that the filter(s) stay cleaner since no large matter can get in.
There is almost no reduction in flow from having a pre-filter sponge and they are very very easy to put on... go get a $1 car wash sponge from the dollar store. take a sharp ( paring ) knife and stab it once, rinse it well. use your fingers to open up the cut and slip it onto the intake. done and done. you can find nicer looking sponges if you like but never for that price lol

[GrayLadyPat]

Everyone here is wonderful! Thank you so much for your help. I am sure I will be asking more questions.

Nice advice about the prefilter. Thanks.

More questions:

Can I safely use Stresscoat and Stresszyme? also, can I use Am-Quell in an emergency? I use those products with my community fish when needed, but I don't know their effect on discus.

Also, this is my 10th post, so with any luck, I'll have pictures tomorrow :D

[lifan23]

I'm probably one of the less experienced here but here are a few simple rules I follow. So far I've been successful keeping over 50 decent size discus with no casualties in the last 6 months following these rules.. Welcome to SD.

1. Good diet
2. at least 60% Water changes 2 times a week with Prime if 1 fish per 10 gallon. 3 if time permits. Service filter media every 2 weeks. If cycling tank I do water changes at least every other day until tank is cycled.
3. Keep consistent water parameters (PH, Hardness etc). Do not adjust parameters with products out there.
4. Keep temperatures of 82-85 when fish are healthy
5. Pay attention if color change, have external growth, or lack of eating and treat accordingly (I keep Metronidazole, Kanaplex, aquarium salt, Furan 2, PP on hand in case fish gets sick but main ones are Metro Salt, Furan)
6. I do not use anything extra for the water like stresscoat or zyme. All I use is Prime for water changes.

[pastry]

cully, might up my filter maintenance now. thanks! i still know myself and won't do it every WC but probably once a month (you may be shaking your head, but that's better than once every 3 months!).

judy, can't wait for the pics! "show me what you're working with" woman!

i'm not answering your last question because i don't know. for regular WC's i use prime because my water has a tiny tiny tiney etc bit of chloramine and prime has worked (and since it ain't broke, i'm not fixing it :) ). i'd say at this point since they aren't dead, pissed off, timid, or looney then you're "A"-Okay.

[GrayLadyPat]

I finally got a decent picture of Fido, the largest...

He/she is a bit washed out (probably because of the lighting) and the peppery black spots on the dorsal and ventral aren't really showing. When the lights are good, he/she is almost black in places. It also seems to be a bit blurry, a casualty of trying to capture a good picture of a moving target when all you had handy is a cell phone...

Hopefully, I got the image post thing to do right... If it works, I will attempt to catch the rest on "film" soon!

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu356/GrayLadyPat/discus2.jpg

[pastry]

Nice Judy! I put the "sports/action" mode on my camera so it doesn't blur too often. I still need to read the photograpy info on this site. I bet it'll help me take better pics of everything in general!

Alright, now confess, what are the other names of Fido's tankmates?

[GrayLadyPat]

Fido's tankmates are Corrigan, Shadow, and the unnamed one...Still haven't hit upon his/her perfect name, but if it turns out to be a male, it will probably be Emmet, after the great clown, Emmett Kelley.

Day 8: All 4 are out running around in the tank now, except when I come near...Only Fido has decided that I mean food, and hangs out til I feed him/her.

Question of the day: How long before I should worry that they're too shy?

More pictures to come later...

[pastry]

Good grief, woman! Did you ever go to sleep? :confused:

Don't worry about the shyness. Just spend time around them if you can. Read a book in the same room or work on something that you can do in the room and then take a break, give them some food, and the keep reading or working in the room.

[GrayLadyPat]

Sleep is overrated... I go to bed late, and get up early... side effect of adult ADD...

Anyone have any idea what strain Fido may be (see pic a few posts back?) Corrigan is the same variety. Shadow and the unnamed one are nost likely turquois, by the markings, but I will post pics for confirmation as soon as I can.

[Dogvet06]

Looks like a pigeon blood ;)

[pastry]

hey, we already share more in common! (ADD).

Jaimie, that still doesn't get old! I always start to laugh and then realize that only a discus person would get it

[Cullymoto]

it definetely has pigeon blood dna ( pigeon's carry the pepper gene ) crossed with a red turquoise IMO.
Shyness could be comming from the lack of numbers to be honest.
Discus like to be in a group. if they are in a large tank space than higher numbers are required. I had some problems with shy, aggresive discus when I had 4. upped it to 7 and everyone is happy. no other changes made.

[GrayLadyPat]

I guess I don't get the joke...yet... ;-)

At this point in time, being as this is my only tank, and it already has a good population, putting two more in there would be a real overload on the system...I do have 3 ancient fish in there, tho, and when they succumb (probably in the next couple of weeks) I will look for a couple more of the same relative size...

They really aren't too shy, just getting used to outside-of-the-tank activity. Otherwise, when they think nobody is looking, they're all out and about, and being their curious little selves. Although, I did notice that Corrigan seems to have bumped his head... He has a small scrape (definitely a scrape, not an infection or something worse) on the top of his head right near where the dorsal fin attaches. It looks like he tried to go through a hole in the driftwood that was a tad bit too small for him. (and no, I have no idea if it's a he or a she... just calling him a "he" for simplicity's sake)

[GrayLadyPat]

OK... more pictures:

My poor tank :D :
http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu356/GrayLadyPat/DSCN0971.jpg

Corrigan:
http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu356/GrayLadyPat/DSCN0968.jpg

The Unnamed one (Shadow could be his/her twin):
http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu356/GrayLadyPat/DSCN0967.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Pat, pretty tank BUT is there any chance you could replace those large rocks with driftwood? Discus and large, rough rocks are not a good mix and most likely where Corrigan received his bump. Consider it like discus proofing your tank. :o

[GrayLadyPat]

Actually, those are not rocks... they are resin driftwood (soon to be traded for the real thing, if I can find some that I like)...The "rocks" you see are actually part of the photorealistic background I have on the tank.

You have to remember that a little over a week ago, this tank was a simple community tank. The discus were received as part of an unhappy event, and I knew absolutely nothing about them except that they are beautiful and that they require certain tank conditions that were not originally present in my poor little 60gallon tank. I am learning on the fly, and they seem to be happy. I know they definitely have helped me deal with the stressful time that preceded their moving in with me.

I wouldn't trade them for the world.

My tank will evolve to suit them. That's a promise. :D

[pastry]

Judy, it's just Pat trying to slightly let her "inner-girl" out and do a make over on your tank :p

[GrayLadyPat]

lol... I understand...

but I also agree... I think rocks would do more harm than good.

I do have another question for all y'all, tho...

If I am going to remake my tank, doesn't it stress the little guys out? I don't want them to have little coronaries because I'm renovating.

Also: Fido and Corrigan have begun to watch me as I walk around the room, and Fido seems to think that every time I am near the tank, I am going to feed him...

[Cullymoto]

that is desired behaviour to be honest.

[GrayLadyPat]

that is desired behaviour to be honest.

I agree wholeheartedly...I was doing the happy dance when he didn't run off as soon as I got within a few feet of the glass...

small update: The granddaughter saw them for the first time tonight... I think we have a budding discus afficianado on our hands...she's 8... :D

[pastry]

+1 with cullymoto. and yes it'll stress them out redecorating but they'll forget right after a feeding or two! just do it during a huge WC though because whatever you lift up will disperse crap that you don't want reaching free water (somebody correct me if I'm wrong).

[GrayLadyPat]

Absolutely! I have redone my tank before, and I usually do at least 80% when I do...Otherwise, the crud comes out from under places I didn't know I had...and some of the crud buried deep undreground (so to speak) is scary!

Anyways, I'll keep you all posted, and I will post pics when I'm done.

oh, and I am ABSOLUTELY sure that I will be asking more questions ;-)

[Second Hand Pat]

Judy, I intent no harm in my suggestions on the "rocks" as I do know this is new for you and you had no time for research etc. On your tank redo I would suggest do one side then the other. This way you give the discus a "safe" place in the tank. Sounds like you are doing very well with them :D

[GrayLadyPat]

Pat, I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, I did not take offense in any way at all... I am thrilled that y'all would help...

Doing one half at a time sounds like a good plan... probably wait a week or so between remodels, tho, so they have time to "forget" the upheaval...lol

Anyways, can anyone confirm what strain Shadow and the Unnamed one are?

[Second Hand Pat]

Cool Judy, I do it all in one session, that way it is one stress point vs two. Now if you are moving the gravel around perhaps two would be better.

[pastry]

Judy,

I'm thinking maybe a type of red turq because it looks like some of the red base is developing in the mid-body but hard to tell with the lighting in that pic. Otherwise, if not a type of red turq then it looks like it could be something similar to a flora altum (sorry, using Kenny & Forrests naming convention for the flora... now sure if that's a hobby common strain)... pretty much a blue turq but see a vertical pattern at certain portions which could be an intended trait (like how Kenny & Forrest's tiger carnations are patterned). Here's a link to Kenny's page with pics (look at post #41): http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?100910-PREVIEW-of-Nov-2012-Forrest-shipment-(Price-list-included)/page3




Anyways, can anyone confirm what strain Shadow and the Unnamed one are?

[GrayLadyPat]

Yet another noob question:

At what age are they considered "Adult" and not expected to grow any more? The more I look at these guys, the more I think they're pretty young.

Also, the twins have very high dorsals (to me.) They almost make them look like 3 1/2" long diamond-shaped fish rather than roundish ...will this change a bit as they get older?

[pastry]

hmmm... well they can breed as early as 9 months (females can lay eggs as early as that and I wouldn't be surprised if some people had some that layed even earlier). but overall the pretty much stop growing roughly at 18 months; atleast that's what i've heard. i stunted a group of mine in a 30 gallon (7 discus) and it was only supposed to be temporary but the economy hit us a little bit and had to keep them there for just under 2 years. however, some of those 7 still grew a little bit more (3/4"-1') once in their 150 gallon. also bought 3 from a LFS after they were stunted at the LFS (saw them arrive in august of that year at 3" and didn't buy them until january which they were maybe 3.5"). Out of those 3, the female started laying eggs even while in the LFS so she never grew from that point on (at all). The other 2 were males and they did end up growing to about 5.25".

your fish i definitely can't tell approximate age. need a more "profile" pic to see if the eyes look bigger than they should (which would indicate their growth is lagging). now the color looks young still because (from my experience with stunted) the colors aren't near developed in my opinion. do you know when you're friend bought them? what size they were? from who? either way, regardless what is said by anyone (not to sound arrogant, I just think everyone would agree) keep up a good WC routine! if they're still young enough then they'll grow!

[Eddie]

Anyways, can anyone confirm what strain Shadow and the Unnamed one are?

The unnamed one is definitely a red turquoise variety. From the eye size to body ratio and body coloration, its probably over 7 months old. It may not grow much larger.

[pastry]

Judy, Eddie's pretty good at this stuff but still, even at about 7 months, a stunted discus can still grow larger if you keep doing WC's. Your tank isn't overly stocked and you have the time. I'm willing to bet if you changed the about 60% of the water 3x a week for 6 months straight then you'll be able to get a solid inch on all of them. Then if you're satisfied you can relax the WCs a bit. Their color can still develope more too. Regardless, they'll still be discus and you'll still be addicted to them! Keep reading up on here and you'll learn more and more. My most favorite pair were pretty stunted (the female was about 4") and not only were they good parents but they managed to raise little ones for a month in a community tank (5 other discus, school of tetras, bn pleco, corydoras, kuhli loach, corydoras, misc catfish, etc). I'm confident some of the little ones would've made it if I didn't do an overhaul on the filtration system at that point (if I only would've waited another month they would've been fine!). so keep doing what you're doing!

okay, have to get back to my west virginia football game... we've got a nail biter with oklahoma

[aalbina]

Yes I am suggesting that she take the media from a cansiter and rinse it out inside the tank using tank water during or immediately before a water change....

I've never heard of rinsing the filter media out inside the tank. I use a canister and sponges and I do rinse them out and clean them. I would probably take a bucket of water from the tank and work with that. I can't imagine rinsing all that organic matter out into the actual tank - seems a bit counter productive - perhaps even unhealthy -even if I'm doing a water change at the same time.

I have well water, which has no chlorine to kill beneficial bacteria, so I can just use tap water without a problem so I don't actually use a bucket. I use to have city water in a different house years ago and I always used tank water from a bucket. When people on this forum have referred to using tank water to rinse sponges I always assumed people were using a bucket - have I misunderstood all these years?

Adam

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[Eddie]

When people on this forum have referred to using tank water to rinse sponges I always assumed people were using a bucket - have I misunderstood all these years?
Adam

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Oh no, you are right Adam. Rinsing the media out in a bucket or under the draining tank water is the better way to go. There's no need to add all that gunk/crap to the tank.

[GrayLadyPat]

Adam, no, I didn't mean I rinsed in the tank...lol. I did mean that I rinsed in tank water...usually I use a bucket.

Update...Day 10 or 11, I forget which: Well, they finally decided that I was the one with the Noms. These little guys are piglets! bloodworms, beefheart, flakes, one even took aim at my finger when I stuck a tubifex treat to the tank wall. I could almost believe that my bottom feeders are starving...almost nothing hits the floor....

I bought some Prime and I am doing water changes. Going to begin redecorating the tank to discusify it soon.

I'll keep you all posted and then send you before and after pictures when I am done.

Cheers!