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View Full Version : A serious discus problem can occur when it's least expected....



discuspaul
11-29-2012, 08:19 PM
As some of you may know, I've kept discus in a planted tank for quite some time.

Over the past year I've had 8 near adults in my 75 gal tank without having made any changes, nor any additions, etc. whatsoever, and everything was just 'swimming along' very nicely.
Then....... but first here's a little background:

Here in Vancouver we are blessed (or perhaps not so blessed), to have quite soft water straight out of the tap, @ around 6.8 pH, with very low need for, nor usage, of chlorine or chloramines by the water supply people, although the water supply is very low in mineral content, and yielding water that is abnormally low in GH & KH. So, most discus-keepers here feel the need to do some occasional buffering, as I do.

Well, it turns out that the pH in my tank, even after fairly large wcs at least twice a week, has been gradually reducing, to the point where when I checked some weeks ago, my reading was quite off the chart, seemingly well below 6.0, which is the lowest reading on my 2 test kits - an API & a Nutrafin Mini Master.

A few days ago, I noticed that a couple of my Red Snakeskins had darkened somewhat, but didn't think much of it at the time. Usual stress from the pecking order aggression. All fish were eating with gusto as usual & behaving quite normally.

The following day all 3 RSS's had darkened considerably more, and late in the day I noted one of them seemed quite skittish, and he suddenly, inexplicably made a mad dash across the back of the tank, striking himself against the glass.
Bad news I thought..... so decided to check water params......test showed no ammonia, no nitrite, as usual . I test every few weeks but it's always been the same.

Anyway, the following day, I walk into the den to find 2 Albino Goldens dried up/ dead on the floor. Had jumped out of a fairly narrow space.

Never happened to me before.... alarm bells.

I checked both of my test kits carefully, and noted then that both of them had expiry dates long since passed, several months before ( real dumb - I should have known better & checked this much earlier - I'd had those test kits for quite some time).

Late that day, a BD took a mad dash across the tank, several times, and ended up bashing himself so hard against the glass that he perished on the spot - he'd committed hari-kari!
I guess some of you know what's coming next.

Anyway, I do a good sized wc, and vow to go out & get a fresh new test kit first thing the following morning.

Next day, before leaving for the nearby LFS, I turn on the tank light & see a dead RSS floating in the tank.

I get the new test kit home, and sure enough .... ammonia readings (.50).

To top things off I'd been recently using an inexpensive run-of-the-mill conditioner (rather than Prime, which I had on hand !) due to our water being very low in chlorine/chloramines, and no ammonia presence.
I do another huge wc and condition with Prime to de-toxify the ammmonia, but of course, it's too late .... I've lost 4 of 8 discus in the blink of an eye (so I felt).

Anyway, to make a long story short, and while I may be wrong, I self-diagnosed that my tank pH had reduced to around 5.0 or so, and with little or no buffering, almost non-existent GH & KH, that my bio-filtration had gone into full dormancy & ceased functioning effectively. I have since taken steps to re-build an effective nitrifying bacterial base while using Prime with every wc.

My remaining 4 discus have fully returned to normal coloration and once again eating like vultures !

But this just goes to show that a bit of a disaster can happen to any one of us, at any time, and that we're all subject to occasional brain cramps that may lose us some fish. Lesson learned.

Etek
11-29-2012, 08:35 PM
damn..sorry for your loss. I came home to unexpected skittishness and 2 dark fish and 1 has a small head injury...water change will be performed after dinner. Sigh..just when you think everything is going well bam. Hope everyone else in the tank is doing well

Keith Perkins
11-29-2012, 08:37 PM
Gosh Paul, that's awful news. I bet my test kit has long since expired too, and I've been scratching my head about a dark juvie. Hope you've nipped it in the bud...off to check my test kit expiration dates.

Altum Nut
11-29-2012, 08:42 PM
Hey Paul

I want to say I'm really sorry you lost 4 Discus.
You went way beyond when most would have lost the whole tank full.
Seems that you managed to stablize things and great that the remaining 4 all eating.
Lesson leared by many but few like yourself are willing to share your experience.

Hope all remains positive buddy.
...Ralph

jimg
11-29-2012, 08:57 PM
sorry to hear about the losses too. I would check for other things going on also. .50 ammonia usually never bothers the fish especially in a low ph like that, it's near non toxic. even at 5.0 ph there is still active bb colonies. I keep my heckles at 4.8 - 5.0 and my bio is as fine. I would keep looking.

discuspaul
11-29-2012, 09:21 PM
Thanks, Jim
I have, and still am, checking other things as well.
But the ammonia level could have been much higher than .50 the two days or so before I got the new test kit, and considering I had done a large wc the night before, or was it 2 nights before - can't quite recall. And the pH may even have been quite lower than 5.0 - I just don't know. Also, with no GH & KH buffering whatsoever in a very low pH environment, my understanding is that this, along with the higher temps, could have re-produced toxic ammonia, rather than ammonium.

Having said that, I don't believe it was something else - perhaps a parasitic problem, nor have we used anything in the home which could have perhaps occasioned a toxic film on the water surface - nor can I envision any other cause, or causes, for this occurence..
My research into bio- filtration chemistry, while not fully understood by my lay self, leads me to believe there are circumstances & sets of conditions which could result in reverting any ammonium back into a toxic non-ionized form.
It's a mystery to me - but my local LFS expert agrees that I may have a point here.

laupao
11-29-2012, 09:25 PM
Thanks Paul for sharing your story, hope all of us can learn from this incident.
I've made mistakes along the way and killed some nice discus, but felt embarrass to share on SD

take it easy, Paul

jimg
11-29-2012, 09:33 PM
good point, you could very well be right. after I wrote this I was thinking about how high the ammonia may have gotten without you being able to check. the bb does slow quite a bit at low ph so maybe while it was dropping the bb die off released gasses which could have effected the remaining bb and/or poisoned the fish. like when someone leaves their filter without o2 for extended periods then when everything sort of levels off again tests show being off only slightly. I hope you find what it was.

DLock3d
11-30-2012, 01:37 AM
Good story Paul. Posts like this while difficult, really add to the community and it's experience base.

Sorry about the loss. The only good thing that comes out of losing discus is that you get to buy more. :)

DiscusBR
12-02-2012, 08:22 PM
Hi Paul,

I just saw this thread. Sorry to hear about your losses. They were were gourgeus discus in a very beautiful setup. I hope you get everything under control soon and get another great stock. Hang in there my friend.

Elliots
12-02-2012, 09:08 PM
Paul, I am sorry to hear about your problems. Now I am not an expert on water conditions but wouldn't more frequent and maybe larger water changes kept your tank water closer to the 6.8 pH of your tap water? That also might have helped your ammonia problems. That seems logical to me but I am not an expert.

discuspaul
12-02-2012, 10:05 PM
Thanks for the sentiments, everyone....... this type of occurence can be distressing, particularly when it's been quite a long time since I've lost a discus for any reason.... and to lose 4 so quickly, to ammonia poisoning of all things, is particularly humbling to me.
These discus were adult or near adult, well-fed & seemingly very happy in their environment, with excellent color & behavioral patterns, and were quite obviously doing just fine with 2 or 3 large wcs a week in a tank that I spent a lot of time keeping pristine and squeaky clean.

I wasn't concerned about the continual, but gradual overall lowering of the pH over the past year, mainly because I was comfortable that low pH, while not only being quite ok for discus, would also create conditions where any ammonia would be rendered into mainly ammonium of low or no toxicity.

I'm no chemist though, so I wasn't at all aware that very soft water conditons with no mineral content, almost non-existent GH and KH, required some extent of buffering to maintain some essential pH stability, lest the ammonium be subject to being potentially re-formed to non-ionized ammonia toxicity, as I understood the research I had done.

Nor was I knowledgeable on, nor concerned about the fact that very low pH conditions caused beneficial bacteria to slow up and eventually move into more or less dormancy status, thus significantly reducing, or negating, their effectiveness in dealing with ammonia & nitrites.

Once again, I may not quite fully understand all of the biological processes that may have been at work here - but I can't pass it off to any other explanation for the onset of ammonia in my tank, which caused this behavior, and eventual loss of fish.

The only clear reference I have found to the type of mad dashing throughout the tank that I witnessed, along with the attempted jumping out of the tank, was on the plymouthdiscus.com website (uk) in the section dealing with discus health....see the links on the left-hand side of their home page.

discuspaul
12-02-2012, 10:33 PM
P.S.
But hey... it's not all that sad - there's a bright side:

I've buffered & stabilized the water @ a steady 6.8 pH - the bio-filtration seems to be back in full working order, and there's no signs of any toxicity - not even ammonium traces. The remaining 4 discus are happy as clams with all their great color returned, and I can now look forward to deciding what discus strains I want to add to the tank for replenishing !
What more can I ask for ?

Keith Perkins
12-02-2012, 10:44 PM
P.S.
But hey... it's not all that sad - there's a bright side:

I've buffered & stabilized the water @ a steady 6.8 pH - the bio-filtration seems to be back in full working order, and there's no signs of any toxicity - not even ammonium traces. The remaining 4 discus are happy as clams with all their great color returned, and I can now look forward to deciding what discus strains I want to add to the tank for replenishing !
What more can I ask for ?

Crappy way to be able to start shopping for new discus for a Christmas present for yourself, but discus shopping and new discus are always fun. Sorry again for your lose my friend, I never would have guessed something like this would happen to you.

discuspaul
12-02-2012, 11:20 PM
Thanks keith.... always appreciate your thoughts.

TURQ64
12-03-2012, 08:40 AM
Really sorry for your fish loss..I'm with Jim on doing some further searching; I have several tanks with some plants, sand, wood,but..the ph is very low, sometimes between 3 and 4..My bio is good and living..little buffering, wc's about every 3rd day...Perhaps the Heckels can tolerate lower conditions than your stock. Anyway, I hope you find your culprit..Gary

discuspaul
12-03-2012, 03:35 PM
Thanks, Gary
I'm still thinking about it, but can't come up with any other possible explanation, except perhaps what I mention below - which to me is a stretch.
One thing I am sure of, in my mind, is that the problem was in fact ammonia poisoning - nothing else.
I truly believe I had a bio-crash of some kind - the actual cause of which remains somewhat mystifying to me.

The only other thing I can recall doing around that period of time was removing one small bag of Purigen from each of my 2 AC 110 HOB's, while also removing both sets of filter floss that I had in each of those 2 filters.
However, I've done that several times before with seemingly no major reduction of bio-filtration levels, even though I usually alternate the removal of Purigen for re-charging. Every 2 or 3 weeks though, I do remove the dirtied filter floss from both filters, chuck them, and add fresh replacements.

The 2 AC's also both still contained large sponges, along with large bags of ceramic bio-rings (neither of which were rinsed at the time, but remained intact in the filters). The tank also has driftwood, quite a few plants, substrate, so it's hard to believe there could have been a serious drop in bio-level from the removal of the Purigen & filter floss.....which had never happened before..... but I suppose anything is possible.

TURQ64
12-03-2012, 03:42 PM
My original outside the box guess was sulphur dioxide poisoning, along with too much nitrogen in their blood..Where the Sulphur Dioxide was lurking would be the mystery if it were in my fishroom...just some thoughts......

discuspaul
12-03-2012, 05:13 PM
I had actually given that some thought, Gary - I do use PFS as substrate, but it's no more than 2.5" deep anywhere in the tank - much less than that throughout most of the tank - maybe 1"....... and I've never seen any evidence of toxic gas pocket build-up.
If it was sulphur dioxide poisoning though, would I not have detected a most unpleasant odor from it, and would it not have destroyed all the fish, not just half of them ? (the other 4 are really doing quite well right now - looking real good - oh, and 3 cories - the only tankmates - lived through it all without any sign of distress).
Just asking....

At any rate, I'm not meaning to belabor this issue... I'm actually quite over it, and moving on.....