The use of Peat Moss to soften the water???

[SoCalDiscus.com]

Okay, I'm new here guys so try not to flame me here but my tap water is too hard and the cause for such a large portion of my eggs not getting fertilized. Out of over a hundred eggs in each batch, maybe only 2-5 babies go to even the wiggler stage. I was told to soften the water so without an expensive RODI or installing a water softener on my home like I was considering, what do you guys think about putting peat moss and/or cappatta leaves in the micron sock that catches all my drain water and is cycled through several tanks distributing the tanics back to the tank?

If it's not a good idea, should I consider a salt softner on the home system or I've also seen saltless systems that "claim" to remove the hard water minerals and deposits but for $180 I'm not really sure how truly affective they are? Here's one I was reading about http://www.nu-gen.net/hardnessmaster-electronic-water-conditioner

Your thoughts????

[Tommo]

If you want to soften water and are doing daily water changes you would be far better investing in a basic RO unit. A 50 gal a day unit should only cost you around $100 (in the UK you can get a basic 50 gal model for less than £100).

Yes. you can use peat but not all peat is equally efficient in softening and reducing pH: Irish sphagnum moss is one of the better known types of peat for softening / acidifying water. I think Canadian sphagnum moss has also been mentioned on the forum also? Just be careful that the peat you are buying doesn't have any of the 'additives' that are commonly put in by garden centres . . .

One really needs to store water over peat to reduce hardness and acidify water. The length of time this takes will depend not only on pH and how hard the water is (you haven't stated the pH, GH or KH of your water), the type and amount of peat used and also the water temperature. I used to store water over peat and in the UK 'summer' months the process would take about a month - much longer in the winter. You can also use Oak leaves to soften and reduce pH. Again, best used in a storage situation . . . Using a micron sock, IMO, on a circulation system would have a minimum affect on pH and hardness. I do however, like to see tannins in the water.

Peat, and catappa leaves, are also known for their bacteriostatic properties as you have implied. I have used catappa leaves, and alder cones, in small aquariums to aid the hatch rate of other species of acidophic fish with good success rates.

The link to the 'salt softener' you've provided shows a product that has been on the market for many years and may or may not be useful for your household water use but not for your fish. I know of a couple of aquarist friends who tried out this type of product years ago and found them useless for fish keeping purposes. Perhaps other members with more recent experience of this type of product could provide some up to date information here?

Hope this helps . . .

[lipadj46]

Peat will reduce kh and Ph but not gh. Not really a solution to hard water for most cases. Salt softeners replace the larger divalent metal ions with the smaller sodium ions. Not really a good solution for fish. The electric softeners will just soften your bank account not your water.

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

[Tommo]

Peat will reduce kh and Ph but not gh. Not really a solution to hard water for most cases. Salt softeners replace the larger divalent metal ions with the smaller sodium ions. Not really a good solution for fish. The electric softeners will just soften your bank account not your water.

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

Mmm long time since I've used peat to soften water and you got me thinking. I was pretty sure that I used to reduce the GH in my peat storage bins so I did a quick google search and found a basic article on water chemistry which stated:

"Peat moss softens water and reduces its hardness (GH). The most effective way to soften water via peat is . . ."

See link: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~narten/faq/chemistry.html

[TURQ64]

Here's my take, you may take it or leave it..I used peat for a very long time in my youth, and one of my crazy old friends swore by it (Quarles). Thaat said, no matter how you approach it, for Discus it's messy and a pain in the A compared to how cheap RO units are now..Much easier to change an RO prefilter than swamp out a lot of peat, just to replace it....Clean water, lotsa wc's=lotsa free swimmers...Gary

[lipadj46]

Mmm long time since I've used peat to soften water and you got me thinking. I was pretty sure that I used to reduce the GH in my peat storage bins so I did a quick google search and found a basic article on water chemistry which stated:

"Peat moss softens water and reduces its hardness (GH). The most effective way to soften water via peat is . . ."

See link: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~narten/faq/chemistry.html

I've heard that before, not sure how the peat is going to remove the metals though to give you repeatable results . RO is by far the most effective (cost, time, energy) solution. I don't know of anyone serious in the hobby (fish, shrimp or salt) that uses peat for more than a little while as it is a mess, quickly loses its buffering, turns water brown, and will not give you a standard starting point


sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

[Tommo]

Here's my take, you may take it or leave it..I used peat for a very long time in my youth, and one of my crazy old friends swore by it (Quarles). Thaat said, no matter how you approach it, for Discus it's messy and a pain in the A compared to how cheap RO units are now..Much easier to change an RO prefilter than swamp out a lot of peat, just to replace it....Clean water, lotsa wc's=lotsa free swimmers...Gary

Ha ha - I agree. RO units make life soooo easy for us these days. I'd hate to have to go back to the days that I had to rely on peat bins to get soft water :D

That said: peat, catappa leaves etc are very useful for inducing certain species of fish to spawn. You may also find Jorgan Scheel's book Rivulins of the Old World an interesting read regarding the properties of peat.

[SoCalDiscus.com]

Great information and I'd agree. I was getting ready to buy a RODI 5 Stage by Spectrapure but the reason I started switching my thinking was that I have a total of 600 Gallons of water tanked between my show tank and breeding tanks. That's a minimum of 600-1200G a day to change water. This would require a much larger volume system, far more expensive than a hundred dollar unit even if I did half and half with tap water but my bigger concern was the amount of waste water I would produce daily to even get close to that needed replacement water. In most cases, an RO or RODI wastes about 70% of water (eg. will make 30 gallons for every 100 gallons filtered = 70 gallons waste) and I started back peddeling on the idea thinking how the wife is going to feel when she sees that first water bill...lol - thus the alternative ideas.

[Tommo]

Great information and I'd agree. I was getting ready to buy a RODI 5 Stage by Spectrapure but the reason I started switching my thinking was that I have a total of 600 Gallons of water tanked between my show tank and breeding tanks. That's a minimum of 600-1200G a day to change water. This would require a much larger volume system, far more expensive than a hundred dollar unit even if I did half and half with tap water but my bigger concern was the amount of waste water I would produce daily to even get close to that needed replacement water. In most cases, an RO or RODI wastes about 70% of water (eg. will make 30 gallons for every 100 gallons filtered = 70 gallons waste) and I started back peddeling on the idea thinking how the wife is going to feel when she sees that first water bill...lol - thus the alternative ideas.

Yes a lot of waste water, far more than your estimate above: i.e. producing 1 gallon of RO water results in 4 - 5 gallons of waste water, depending upon you RO unit . . . Don't upset the wife :)

[Chicago Discus]

Yes a lot of waste water, far more than your estimate above: i.e. producing 1 gallon of RO water results in 4 - 5 gallons of waste water, depending upon you RO unit . . . Don't upset the wife :)

+1, I have a 1000 gallon per day unit for my breeders and its pretty wasteful.....Josie but not as wasteful as the fire hydrants that I turn off in the city that are left on.......Josie

[lipadj46]

That and also the original thought that peat is not going to lower GH all that much if at all where RO will lower it to 0.

[Tommo]

I wondering if you have considered the use of iron-exchange and / or de-ionizing resins? The use of cation and anion resins for softening water was pretty common in the Discus hobby before RO units became more affordable. I did tinker around with this in the 1970s but found the process time consuming . . .

Couple of links:

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/ion-exchange-resins

http://www.waterprofessionals.com/ultrapure/ion_exchange.html

[SoCalDiscus.com]

Josie: Wow, that's a heavy duty RO system! :mad: "I think I just got RO Envy"

[SoCalDiscus.com]

Tommo: Yes, that's what I was speaking of earlier when I mentioned RODI.... Reverse Osmosis & Dionized Resins. Thanks for the tip though. I love the fish talk here on SD. Also, thank you for the hyperlinks. I'm checking them out now. :)

[Tommo]

Tommo: Yes, that's what I was speaking of earlier when I mentioned RODI.... Reverse Osmosis & Dionized Resins. Thanks for the tip though. I love the fish talk here on SD. Also, thank you for the hyperlinks. I'm checking them out now. :)

Best of luck. Although the resins are rechargeable, and can therefore work out cost effective, you'll need to work out a system that minimises the time / hassle involved in maintenance etc. You'll see by referring to the links that the iron-exchange & de-ioronising resins are quite different . . .

[TURQ64]

...or, do like I do, and reprocess your ro reject back to the units, eliminating any byproduct waste....I'm not even 'commercial', and I change over 18,000g a month...and as for the 'reading up' on peat, I could have written volumes concerning it's use in the past, but this is a Discus forum, so how it pertains to other species is irrelevant...Gary

[DerekFF]

Peat isnt really a controllable way of softening water. It takes too long and from batch to batch may vary in the effectiveness. An RO Unit should cost lessthan than or around 100 dollars

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[Tommo]

...or, do like I do, and reprocess your ro reject back to the units, eliminating any byproduct waste....I'm not even 'commercial', and I change over 18,000g a month...and as for the 'reading up' on peat, I could have written volumes concerning it's use in the past, but this is a Discus forum, so how it pertains to other species is irrelevant...Gary

Regarding RO waste see previous discussion http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?97905-Using-RO-waste-caution

I don't understand how dismissive you can be with your comment: "so how it [peat] pertains to other species is irrelevant . . ." Clearly you haven't read Scheel's book regarding the properties of peat. The killifish people have been pioneers in many aspects of the hobby in general. It really is surprising how useful it can be reading other 'specialist' publications with regard to transferring skills / knowledge to other areas.

I can remember reading one of my sister's nursing journals on the pituitary gland and how it matures the gonads / ovaries and then linking / understanding how certain properties in peat can trigger this maturation process - NOT just in killifish . . .

[Chicago Discus]

Regarding RO waste see previous discussion http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?97905-Using-RO-waste-caution

I don't understand how dismissive you can be with your comment: "so how it [peat] pertains to other species is irrelevant . . ." Clearly you haven't read Scheel's book regarding the properties of peat. The killifish people have been pioneers in many aspects of the hobby in general. It really is surprising how useful it can be reading other 'specialist' publications with regard to transferring skills / knowledge to other areas.

I can remember reading one of my sister's nursing journals on the pituitary gland and how it matures the gonads / ovaries and then linking / understanding how certain properties in peat can trigger this maturation process - NOT just in killifish . . .

He didn't mean anything by his comment he is a very successful breeder and hobbyist.

Ok peat, here it goes I use RO Tap mix for my breeders occasionally I will use peat to induce spawning BUT I live with a double PHD in BioChemistry and don't recommend messing with your water pirameters unless you know water chemistry.
Most discus will spawn and do really well in all types of water the most important thing is consistency and lots of clean water.
I hope this helps.......Josie

[lipadj46]

Peat has its uses in the hobby I don't think anyone is arguing that. I use hummic acid pellets to buffer my shrimp tanks to around pH 6, it does not lower GH though as far as I can measure, it will reduce alkalinity obviously.

[TURQ64]

Regarding RO waste see previous discussion http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?97905-Using-RO-waste-caution

I don't understand how dismissive you can be with your comment: "so how it [peat] pertains to other species is irrelevant . . ." Clearly you haven't read Scheel's book regarding the properties of peat. The killifish people have been pioneers in many aspects of the hobby in general. It really is surprising how useful it can be reading other 'specialist' publications with regard to transferring skills / knowledge to other areas.

I can remember reading one of my sister's nursing journals on the pituitary gland and how it matures the gonads / ovaries and then linking / understanding how certain properties in peat can trigger this maturation process - NOT just in killifish . . .

with no offense to your sister, I can be entirely dismissive. I've successfully bred multi generations of many species of tropical fish, and am a reasonably successful, 5 decade breeder of Discus. since this IS a Discus forum, I stand on all comments regarding peat and it's benefits I have referenced..........Gary

[lipadj46]

Gonads, LOL!

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

[TURQ64]

I will also readily admit that in 52 years of messing with spawning fish and related water chemistry, I've read maybe a dozen or two books, tops...not in my career lifestyle, as I spent my nights going over structural blueprints relative to bridges and highrises...But, now working knowledge of peat??...I never heard of Mr. Sheels, but I've been up to my elbows and ankles with a grain shovel mucking peat out of Jim Quarles' 'peat filter', a large, storage tank in his basement plumbed into his tanks...Now that's 'peat and Discus study'.....Jim could coax a Discus into most anything...

[Tommo]

Gonads, LOL!

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

Exactly my thoughts :D

[Tommo]

I will also readily admit that in 52 years of messing with spawning fish and related water chemistry, I've read maybe a dozen or two books, tops...not in my career lifestyle, as I spent my nights going over structural blueprints relative to bridges and highrises...But, now working knowledge of peat??...I never heard of Mr. Sheels, ...

Joegen J. Scheel: "Rivulins of the Old World". Sadly out of print but second-hand copies are available - but are collector's items. The book also discusses how the urine of a pregnant woman can be used to stimulate spawning in certain species of fish - Not just killies. And yes, I have tried this on Discus with some fascinating results but I'm going off topic here . . .

Also, if memory serves me right: Schmidt-Focke (?) in his early work talked about using his "peat bomb" in preparing water for spawning Discus. Clearly he didn't have access to RO units during this period. How much more he could have achieved with what we take for granted now . . .?

[Discus Origins]

Having also attempted to use peat to soften and acidify water, I found that it took an enormous amount of peat and time to soak in order to bring any tapwater with moderate hardness ~200ppm and ph 7.8 down to workable parameters of ph 6.0 and hardness ~60ppm. It took 2 cubic feet of peat soaked in a 35 gallon drum with tap water over 7 days in order to achieve these conditions.

Needless to say, experience will usually trump any lessons learned by reading. Having personally gone thru the messy endeavor of using peat, I find RO/DI units a godsend and can make hundreds of gallons of 0-10ppm water per day and instead of masses off peat I can just add a few catabba leaves if I choose to include tannins in my product water. So much easier :)

[SoCalDiscus.com]

Having also attempted to use peat to soften and acidify water, I found that it took an enormous amount of peat and time to soak in order to bring any tapwater with moderate hardness ~200ppm and ph 7.8 down to workable parameters of ph 6.0 and hardness ~60ppm. It took 2 cubic feet of peat soaked in a 35 gallon drum with tap water over 7 days in order to achieve these conditions.

Needless to say, experience will usually trump any lessons learned by reading. Having personally gone thru the messy endeavor of using peat, I find RO/DI units a godsend and can make hundreds of gallons of 0-10ppm water per day and instead of masses off peat I can just add a few catabba leaves if I choose to include tannins in my product water. So much easier :)

I did purchase some items today that may help or at-least I'll see? I purchased a RODI filter that will start me off right and get away from the hardwater in the first place. Second, as for Nitrates to lesson the need for water changes (we will see if this works) I bought the "Hydra Aquatics BioPellet Reactor" and "NPX Bio Plastics by Two Little Fishies". The company "claims" you have to use a very small amount of bioplastics because the reactor is so powerful that it will completely strip your tank of every bit of Nitrate and Phosphate in the system. Where is this is a big caution for reef tank owners especially whom own Macro-Algae plants that would starve without some phosphate or nitrate, I thought it might be interesting to see how it works on a freshwater discus tank. The bioplastics are said to be made of a food biproduct to grow heavy bacteria and the system acts as a DI unit that will strip the system primarily of Nitrates and Phosphates. If this is true, it may be an option to reduce (not replace) water changes.

I'll check it out and see how it does. When I get the results I'll report back to this thread. The bioplastics by two little fishies weren't that inexpensive so I hope it does something. Two bags of bioplastics that are said need to be replaced once a month cost more than the whole reactor itself!

[gundala]

Don't mean to 'resurrect' old posts. Just wanna share my recent experience trying Laguna Peat Granules from Hagen. It's intended for pond use, but I put it in along with other biological/ mechanical filter. It lowers my pH, but it's messy. I have to make sure I rinse off the 'powder'/ dust before putting it in, otherwise the tank becomes cloudy. Don't feel like using it nemore. I have other peat related substrate that I'd try in the future. Will share...

[musicmarn1]

Well then ill ask too, what about tetra blackwater extract? Im adding one capful per wc for wilds