RO Unit vs. Whole House Filter

[YSS]

I am thinking about building an automatic drip water change system for my 265G. So started looking around for options.

I am on tap water, so need to treat the water. I have been thinking about getting an RO system for the tank and I think this would be a good opportunity to get one. Hooking up an RO unit to the drip system would be ideal, but I was also thinking about the whole house filter system. Is the RO system we typically buy for our tanks similar to the whole house filter system? I came across this one and it looks reasonable. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I would get the 4 ~ 6 bathrooms system.

http://www.pelicanwater.com/whole_house_water_filters.php?source=googleftr&gclid=CInbz6OEyLQCFcuZ4Aod9h4AxQ

[Cullymoto]

IMO it is foolish to filter ALL of your house water... Why would you want cleaner than rain water in your toilet tank? For washing dirty pots and pans? See what i'm saying?
Sure it would be nice to have for showers...
I have a simple 30 gal per day r/o unit, designed to fit under sink and has a faucet to use as drinking water. I hooked it up exactly as intended, except for a booster pump between water supply and the r/o filter. This has upped the GPD to roughly 50 GPD. I simply ran a saddle valve and extra tubing off the filter output line to a holding tank. simple simple. and cheap. The saddle valve allows me to reduce flow to the holding tank so as to always be able to drink the filtered water even when the system is filling the holding tank. (tap water here tastes poorly)
Even thought the instructions with the unit say "replace filter cartridges every 6 months" it has been running for just under 16 months with no maintenence at all. my tap water is 300 - 325 ppm GH. out of the filter it is 0 ppm GH.
All in all the system cost me 350 for the r/o, booster, holding tank (90 gallon aquarium) and plumbing supplies. took me an afternoon to install and I am far from being a plumber. Hope that helps.

[YSS]

Why would you want cleaner than rain water in your toilet tank? For washing dirty pots and pans? See what i'm saying?
Sure it would be nice to have for showers...


This part makes sense. :)

[cjr8420]

ive been thinking about getting one of these scroll down past RO and they have filtered drip 40 60 80 gal a day systems hth
http://www.thefilterguys.biz/ro_systems.htm

[YSS]

Upon further reading, it appears that the whole house filter performs the first two stages of a typical three stage RO unit. Does anyone know what gets filtered during the first two stages vs. the last stage?

[ZX10R]

Hey Yun,

Here is my setup I am using on my 180 out in my garage. I tied into my hot and cold water line then ran that into a mixing valve then into a standard house filter with carbon insert. I drip warm water in the winter and cold water in summer. Entire setup costed around $150 for everything.

http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac101/sig4s/20130101_130350_zpsaf4a6e0f.jpg

[YSS]

Hey Yun,

Here is my setup I am using on my 180 out in my garage. I tied into my hot and cold water line then ran that into a mixing valve then into a standard house filter with carbon insert. I drip warm water in the winter and cold water in summer. Entire setup costed around $150 for everything.


Very clean looking setup, Sean. Is it an automatic drip system directly into the tank? Does your carbon filter remove chlorine/chloramine? Does it remove anything else?

[ZX10R]

It is not automatic I turn it on or off myself and yes it drips directly into the tank. Here is the filter elements I am using and description

http://www.walmart.com/ip/3M-Filtrete-Whole-House-Carbon-2pk/21609434?t=1&

[YSS]

ive been thinking about getting one of these scroll down past RO and they have filtered drip 40 60 80 gal a day systems hth
http://www.thefilterguys.biz/ro_systems.htm

Thanks for the info.


It is not automatic I turn it on or off myself and yes it drips directly into the tank. Here is the filter elements I am using and description

http://www.walmart.com/ip/3M-Filtrete-Whole-House-Carbon-2pk/21609434?t=1&

Thanks for the info. Looks like I will need to do a lot more reading and research.

[ZX10R]

I will try and dig up some info but I was reading on drip systems before I did this one and some of the places I read said if you do a slow enough drip there is no need to filter the water just straight tap will do.

[ZX10R]

Here is one place I was reading at the bottom of first post in bold

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/diy-aquarium-projects/63801-easy-diy-automatic-water-change-system.html

[YSS]

Here is one place I was reading at the bottom of first post in bold

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/diy-aquarium-projects/63801-easy-diy-automatic-water-change-system.html

Thanks, Sean. More and more I read about it, it looks real simple to do. I will need to run this through a fiter to remove chlorin/chloramine. I will need to decide whether I would just use the carbon fiter you used or an RO unit. If I decide to go with the RO unit, then I will have to figure out how to dose the water with trace minerals. The biggest isuse I have is access to tap and drain from my tank. There is a wall between my tank and the powder room, so I will have to drill a hole(s) on the wall and also a couple of holes on the vanity to access the pipe and drain. I wonder if I can access water from the toilet and drain the water in the toilet. That would be interesting. :)

[Moon]

The two stage filter that you are considering is a sediment and carbon filter. The activated carbon filter will remove chlorine. The two stage will not have any impact on hardness. You need to add a R/O unit to reduce hardness.
I am on well water and have an inline filter with exchange resin. This unit simply removes the Calcium and replaces it with Sodium. The Carbonate hardness is still there. This water comes through my drip system for all 20 tanks. I use R/O just for my breeders.

[YSS]

The two stage filter that you are considering is a sediment and carbon filter. The activated carbon filter will remove chlorine. The two stage will not have any impact on hardness. You need to add a R/O unit to reduce hardness.
I am on well water and have an inline filter with exchange resin. This unit simply removes the Calcium and replaces it with Sodium. The Carbonate hardness is still there. This water comes through my drip system for all 20 tanks. I use R/O just for my breeders.

Thanks for the info. Another question. Many have stressed the importance on aging water and I can't. If I use an RO unit, does that eliminate the need for aging water or RO and aging are not related?

[ZX10R]

Let the fun begin :)

[Moon]

Thanks for the info. Another question. Many have stressed the importance on aging water and I can't. If I use an RO unit, does that eliminate the need for aging water or RO and aging are not related?

A carbon block filter will remove all the chlorine and water can be used directly from this filter to your tanks. The only issue is Ph stabilization.
My late friend Barb Newell used a sediment and carbon block filters for WC direct from the tap with no issues.

[Cullymoto]

with a drip system you will not need to age the water (it would be better to age it but) because the drip is a small volume added per day compared to a large volume of established water in the tank.
IMO the entire reason to age water is ph stabilization.
as this "artificially high ph water" drips into the established water it will diffuse, and begin to de-gass (ph is affected by disolved c02 in the water from the tap) it will effect your established tanks ph. The amount it changes will be determined by a few factors - what the tank ph is - what the tap ph is - how much water you drip in per day.
I think you'll be fine to run through a carbon filter to remove chlorines and drip into the tank. By not using a r/o you will not have to dose and minerals. If you go r/o and need to re-mineralize... well the best options then become expensive. Items such as automatic dosing systems which require monitorng systems. big bucks.

[YSS]

A carbon block filter will remove all the chlorine and water can be used directly from this filter to your tanks. The only issue is Ph stabilization.
My late friend Barb Newell used a sediment and carbon block filters for WC direct from the tap with no issues.


with a drip system you will not need to age the water (it would be better to age it but) because the drip is a small volume added per day compared to a large volume of established water in the tank.
IMO the entire reason to age water is ph stabilization.
as this "artificially high ph water" drips into the established water it will diffuse, and begin to de-gass (ph is affected by disolved c02 in the water from the tap) it will effect your established tanks ph. The amount it changes will be determined by a few factors - what the tank ph is - what the tap ph is - how much water you drip in per day.
I think you'll be fine to run through a carbon filter to remove chlorines and drip into the tank. By not using a r/o you will not have to dose and minerals. If you go r/o and need to re-mineralize... well the best options then become expensive. Items such as automatic dosing systems which require monitorng systems. big bucks.

Thank you both for the info. Makes sense on pH and aging. But I am still considering RO as I have wild discus and wild angels. They are doing fine in my tap, but wanted to provide a better environment. May be I can start without the RO system first and may be add RO down the road.

Where is a good place to buy a carbon based filter? I believe my water has chloramine, so I will need a system that will remove chloramine.

[Moon]

Jehmco has them

[ZX10R]

I only have rays in my 180 that I am doing a drip in no discus. But when my brother had his 6 wild discus in his 200 with rays he was running a drip just like my setup and his wilds were fine. He had them for over a year like that.

[YSS]

Has anyone heard of/used Pentek filters? Very cheap: less than $20 for housing and about $15 for a cartridge rated 50,000 G. I was planning on 50G per day drip and it would last 1,000 days (theoretically speaking. :) )

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/c-108-5-10-20-slim-line-filter-housings.aspx

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-3973-pentek-255416-43-chlorplus-10-chloramine-reduction-1-mic-filter.aspx



If you go r/o and need to re-mineralize... well the best options then become expensive. Items such as automatic dosing systems which require monitorng systems. big bucks.

Still considering an RO system. If I go with RO and have to dose with trace elements, such as Kent Discus Essential, instead of buying monitoring and dosing systems, I can essentially just does the tank. So, if I drip 50G of water each day, I can dose the tank for 50G of water each day. That should work, I think. Any thoughts?

[Cullymoto]

Has anyone heard of/used Pentek filters? Very cheap: less than $20 for housing and about $15 for a cartridge rated 50,000 G. I was planning on 50G per day drip and it would last 1,000 days (theoretically speaking. :) )

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/c-108-5-10-20-slim-line-filter-housings.aspx

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-3973-pentek-255416-43-chlorplus-10-chloramine-reduction-1-mic-filter.aspx




Still considering an RO system. If I go with RO and have to dose with trace elements, such as Kent Discus Essential, instead of buying monitoring and dosing systems, I can essentially just does the tank. So, if I drip 50G of water each day, I can dose the tank for 50G of water each day. That should work, I think. Any thoughts?

In my opinion, No. Here's why I think this.
As mineral free r/o water is dripped into the system, cause mineralized water to overflow out the mineral content of the fishes environment is slowly, steadily changing. This has the effect of making every cell in the fishes body have to work to reach equilibrium with the water they are immersed in. Now a slow, steady change of disolved solids isn't a big deal. The problem I see is when you add that daily dose of minerals hits the water. This would cause a spike in mineral content and again force the cells to work very hard to reach an equilibrium once again. It would be better to do several small doses to reach your daily amount as opposed to one dose.
We all know that consistancy is key in keeping fish, here is about the best explanation of why I have come across. Its a long read covering what a fishes cells have to endure during changes to water paremeters including ph, gh, and kh.

pH (Hydrogen Potential) is chemically defined as the negative logarithm of the concentration of Hydrogen ions in a solution. This, although accurate, means very little to the average fish keeper. We need to simplify things a bit and then examine why pH and other fluctuations of the water chemistry may easily kill living organisms.

Water consists of two molecules of Hydrogen (H) combined to one molecule of Oxygen (O) as we all know. What most fish keepers don't know is that a very small portion of water molecules dissociates and gives equal numbers of hydroxyl groups (OH-) and hydrogen ions (H+). It is evident that only equal numbers of OH- and H+ can exist in pure water. Actually in distilled water, only 10-7 molecules dissociate (one molecule of water every 10.000.000 molecules) providing 10-7 OH- and 10-7 H+. This in turn means that water is only slightly soluble in water!!

The second critical factor to remember is that the multiple of OH- x H+ is constant for water and aqueous solutions. Accordingly, the more H+ ions in such a solution the less OH- there is in it and vice versa.
The negative logarithm of 10-7 is 7, therefore distilled water has a pH of 7 which is called neutral, meaning that equal numbers of H+ and OH- are present or, in other words there is no surplus of either ions or negative groups.
If acid is added in the water ("acid" is defined as a compound that releases H+ when dissolved in water) then the H+ molecules will accumulate in the water. Thus the concentration of H+ will become (as we keep on pouring acid) 10-6 (one H+ ion every one million molecules), then 10-5 (one ion every 100.000 molecules) then 10-4 (one ion every 10.000 molecules) or even more. Of course the pH will gradually change from 7 to 6, then to 5 and 4 or even lower. Any solution with a pH less than 7.0 is called acidic. The lower the value the stronger the acidic character. Concentrated acids have a pH of nearly 0. At that pH only H+ exist.
Exactly the opposite will happen if a base is added (a "base" is a compound that releases / produces OH-). Since the total multiple must remain the same, as indicated, the more OH- in the water, the less the H+ will be. Thus the concentration of H+ will go from neutral (one every 10.000.000 molecules) to less and less H+ (one every 1.000.000.000 molecules or even less). One every 1 billion molecules means 1X10-9 which means a pH of 9. Any solution with a pH over 7.0 is called basic or alkaline. Strong bases (NaOH, KOH etc) produce solutions with a pH value near 14. At that pH there is no H+.
Why is this important? For a number of reasons. Most importantly, a fluctuation of 1 point in the pH scale means a tenfold increase or decrease in the H+ ions present in the solution. This has implications on the fish.
Take the example of a hobbyist making a water change using tap water with a pH of 6.5. Additives (chemicals) are subsequently added to the water to bring the pH back up to 8.5 for the African cichlids in the tank. In such a case it is well possible to find some of the fish dead next day. Why?
The fish were accustomed to a certain H+ concentration. Then, suddenly, they are facing new water coming in their tank, which only contains one hundredth of the normal H+. This is a shock by itself, a very serious shock. While in stress, the fish try to adapt to the new situation when suddenly something is added in the water which creates a new solution with 100 times more H+. No organism can adapt to this sort of fluctuations!!
To understand why we need to look at what happens in the cells of the fish or plant. Very simply, the cell is like a membrane which is permeable. In short, there is a narrow limit of differences in concentration that the membrane can handle. If the outer concentration suddenly raises 100 times then the cell has to react. It does so in two ways. Either by releasing water (so the concentration inside the membrane increases, too) or by absorbing as much material as it can handle in order to level the (internal and external) concentrations.
However, the cell is a living unit. It is not a lifeless membrane which can stay intact. There is a limit on how much water it can expel or how many H+ ions it can cope with in the inside (cytoplasm). With fluctuations of this magnitude, most cells simply can't cope. This is even more pronounced if the fluctuation is instant. Cells have a remarkable adaptability to their surrounding and can cope with this kind of fluctuations if they are gradual.
A great way to reduce this sort of fluctuations is the use of buffers which have the ability to "absorb" the influence of an acid or a base and keep the pH relatively stable. This is not valid for pH only.
It is also true for the GH, KH, conductivity, alkalinity etc.
These two entities (GH & KH) show how much calcium, magnesium or carbonates are dissolved in the water. Again, an instant raising of the GH from 10 to 20 will cause too much stress to your fish. The living cell has a certain osmotic pressure in the interior (proportional to the concentration of particles in the cytoplasm) and has reached a dynamic equilibrium with the surrounding osmotic pressure.
The aim of every cell is to minimize the differences between its interior and the exterior pressures or keep a specific difference. Obviously, the sudden addition of salt in the environment causes the cell to counteract immediately in order to survive, which means it has to absorb salts at dangerous or even fatal levels. This is due to the fact that the cell needs to ensure its survival first and then deal with the extra salts it has accumulated. Again, a gradual increase will allow the fishes to adapt to values that would kill them if applied instantly. Bear in mind that not all species have the same kind of cells, i.e. cells that have the same tolerance or can survive under the same conditions. It is obvious that when cells are exposed to conditions outside their tolerance range they die. For example an African cichlid from Lake Malawi may survive for months or years at a pH of 9.2 with a GH=30 (though not the optimal conditions) whereas a discus will die very shortly! There are two rules which, if followed, will ensure fish won't be harmed by fluctuating water chemistry:
Rule 1: Know your fish and the range of conditions they should live in. Every single species carries its own genetic code; this is information on how its cells should be built. This genetic code is equally valid for all members of a species, whether wild caught or tank bred; it has been naturally selected as the "best" millions of years ago and remains unchanged. Now cells (and subsequently tissues, organs and organisms) may adapt to a wide range of external conditions but not without a cost. Adapting means starting, stopping or modifying something, perhaps by "irregularly" activating or inhibiting a biochemical pathway. Experienced fish keepers usually keep fish from the same habitat in their own tank and they try to mimic nature as closely as possible.
Rule 2: It is highly recommended to dissolve the total quantity of salts or other additives (e.g. pH buffers) in a couple of liters of water and then add the solution little by little as the new water comes in your tank. This will greatly minimize fluctuations. Avoid any instant corrections or alterations of the conditions (temperature, lighting etc) and especially of the water parameters

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Very thorough write-up Cully. Very scientific and full of the positives that we need to focus on to keep healthy discus.

[cjr8420]

Very thorough write-up Cully. Very scientific and full of the positives that we need to focus on to keep healthy discus.+1
now if we could get this as a auto attach to any thread that has ph swings from not aging water and wondering why they have issues lol

[SMB2]

Great post Cully.
For YSS, our house came with the exact Pelican filter in your original post. It is pretty easy to maintain and the carbon only has to be replaced every 3-5 yrs. The sediment filter does not come with a pressure relief valve making switching out the filters a little harder. Get one from American Plumber instead.
I still age my WC and add Prime. PH goes from 7.1 to 7.6 in 24 hrs but I can speed up the process with very vigorous agitation in the aging barrel.
Do you have a W->D filter with your tank?

[YSS]

Great post Cully.
For YSS, our house came with the exact Pelican filter in your original post. It is pretty easy to maintain and the carbon only has to be replaced every 3-5 yrs. The sediment filter does not come with a pressure relief valve making switching out the filters a little harder. Get one from American Plumber instead.
I still age my WC and add Prime. PH goes from 7.1 to 7.6 in 24 hrs but I can speed up the process with very vigorous agitation in the aging barrel.
Do you have a W->D filter with your tank?

Yes, thanks Cully.

Thanks for the info on the filter Stan. Did you mean Wet Dry filter? If so, then no. I have 4 cannister filters for my discus tank.

[Jeff O]

Wow! I didnt think id find myself reading that entire post LOL. Im glad I did what an interesting read! Thank you Cully!
-Jeff

[SMB2]

Yun,
Is there any possible space under the tank for a holding sump? Thinking of how you could have a tank to age water and do semi- automatic water changes.
Of course the real answer is obvious!!! You mentioned a bathroom behind the the tank. Just take out the fixtures and make that a tank water room, put the filters in there and a 250 gal aging barrel.
Then you only have to worry about where to put the Porto-Potty.

[sunshine]

Hey Yun,

Here is my setup I am using on my 180 out in my garage. I tied into my hot and cold water line then ran that into a mixing valve then into a standard house filter with carbon insert. I drip warm water in the winter and cold water in summer. Entire setup costed around $150 for everything.

http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac101/sig4s/20130101_130350_zpsaf4a6e0f.jpg

Instead of spending days trying to read through all the threads. I think this system you are running is what I am looking for....... can I pick your brain for more details and please direct us on how to..??


I just messaged your inbox too... so either way to respond will save me days of doing reading that will give me headache...

Here is my questions...
Ps. if anyone else can answer too.. i will take all info....


Hello, I have been searching youtube videos, reading threads etc trying to get the best, easiest, cheapest way to make my own drip line for my 90 gallon tall discus tank. I am so sick of doing WC's lol. so I seen your post and said wow.... that is what I am looking for... We have a basement, so drilling a hole behind the tank to the bottom level should be easy. I am thinking of two ways to do my drip line.
1. straight and easy. PVC pipes,lines, , a carbon filter somewhere in the middle, pressure valves, drill the holes to my hot and cold copper pipes closet to the tank in my LR and let the drain line go right into the floor drain.

2. do all above but have a rain barral in the middle to age my water (question, is aging needed stilll with a drip line?)...

Questions I have are:
1. if i only use cold water, and fill the tank, will that still work
2. for a 90 gallon what rate of drip should be good enough for clean fresh WC daily?
3. Is there somewhere a "list" of all the supplies I will need from start to finish?
4. Will I still have to do gravel vaccums? how often then?
5. Is Prime still needed with a drip system?

[ZX10R]

Sounds like idea #1 will he the best and now for your questions

1. Yes only using cold water will work but you will want to drip slow so you don't cool your watwr down to fast and make your heaters work twice as hard.
2. Use this link to figure out your water change over rate http://www.angelfish.net/DripSystemcalc.php
3. This is really hard to say because everyones setup will be different. The main things you will need is a shut off valve such as a ball valve to shut off the main water, a carbon filter, and a small valve to adjust the drip I use a needle valve on mine.
4. Yes you will still have to clean your tank and gravel. It also isn't a bad idea to still do a large WC everyonce in a while either.
5. Prime is not needed for a drip system

Hope this helps

[sunshine]

Sounds like idea #1 will he the best and now for your questions

1. Yes only using cold water will work but you will want to drip slow so you don't cool your watwr down to fast and make your heaters work twice as hard.
2. Use this link to figure out your water change over rate http://www.angelfish.net/DripSystemcalc.php
3. This is really hard to say because everyones setup will be different. The main things you will need is a shut off valve such as a ball valve to shut off the main water, a carbon filter, and a small valve to adjust the drip I use a needle valve on mine.
4. Yes you will still have to clean your tank and gravel. It also isn't a bad idea to still do a large WC everyonce in a while either.
5. Prime is not needed for a drip system

Hope this helps

Yes that helps, thanks.... as ps.. I name my fish too..lol...