There's Something (New) In The Water!

[GrayLadyPat]

I noticed something the other day after a water change. Instead of acting happy and hungry, my kids were huddling, clamping fins, and generally looking like they were horribly uncomfortable. I tested the water immediately and found that the pH was a bit high, but nothing serious, and everything else was exactly where it was supposed to be.

I figured I forgot dechlorinator and quickly Primed my tank. Everyone got through the crisis, but nobody really "came back" to where they were before the water change...

So, I called a friend of mine who is a long-time employee of the local municipal water department, and here's what he had to say. Our city has invested in Chlorine Dioxide generators. This is how they are disinfecting our water. Well, being utterly clueless about Chlorine Dioxide, I did a bit of armchair research, and found out that it is a mixed blessing.

Chlorine Dioxide is a volotile substance that breaks down and dissapates within minutes of mixing it into the water supply. It kills viruses, bacteria, algae, and pretty much anything else that might possible be living in the sediment pools and sluiceways at the water district. It also handles odors and tastes, negating the "lake turnover" affect that we have here every year. It is safer and easier to use than traditional chloramine or chlorine treatments, and is more effective against microbes such as Cryptos and (of all things) the flu. It completely precipitates out of the water supply within minutes of being added. One other small side effect of Chlorne Dioxide treatment is that it tends to raise the pH slightly during treatment. It is generated on-site, and isn't transported from anywhere, minimizing the possibility of toxic spills.

Here's the bad news: It also has a couple of by-products called Chlorite and Chlorate. Both of these are in such minute quantities so as to be negligible for human and most pet contact. They reduce oxygen. They also remain in the water indefinitely. They do not precipitate, nor do they evaporate. These two compounds cannot be handled by Prime, Safe, or De-Chlor. I believe this is what my fish are suffering from.

These two compounds are extremely hard to get rid of. You can't aerate them out; you can't age them out. Even the EPA says that the only way to rid your water of these two things is Granulated Activated Carbon filtration. From what I understand, the carbon can neutralize them in one pass, many times in seconds, however, leaching back is a problem after the 2nd or 3rd time one uses a particular batch of carbon.

Not knowing anything about RO setups, I am not sure how they would handle Chlorite or Chlorate.

More and more municipal water systems are moving toward this type of water treatment for human consumption. In our case, nobody was notified of the change. Unfortunately, I am not sure my fish can survive it. The cost alone of changing carbon every 2nd or 3rd water change is unreal. I immediately ran to the LFS for some carbon for both canisters and the kids seem to be doing a bit better...I am watching them like a hawk. All I know is that if I cannot work around this, my discus days may be over.

I am monitoring this situation closely and keep you all posted.

[a volar]

I'm not an expert but I don't think carbon will exhaust in 2 o3 water changes, I'm sure it will last a lot more..

[Second Hand Pat]

A HMA filter might be worth considering.

[Trier20]

A HMA filter might be worth considering.

+1

[DLock3d]

Wow, really interesting read. Please let us know if you find a solution. Thanks for sharing I hope you get it worked out.

[ausuriello2nd]

Pat, that you for sharng this most important and current information with the rtest fo us SD. Luckly you had someome in the loope who had become of what your local water treatment company was doig and adding into the drinking water. What really scares me is that this water with its new additives will evetually make it way back into the natural water ways, and spread, and spread. I suggest that aquarium hobbyist through whatever local society they may belong to immediatelty get in touch with their government officals and put a stop to this before its to late. It should be pointed out to those officals unless they plan install carbon filteration to remove these additives from out drinking water, there could e possible cause for individuals to bring future lawsuits for side effects these addivtivites could produce which would do more harm to people, etc than so called benefits would ever produce. So, my suggest is that memebers of local and national aquarium call for emergency to take place quickly and get the ball rolling in order to stop this of mindless procedure from being introduced into your water supply. Otherwise we just might not a hobby to enjoy...Al..Al from Omaha

[AndLaw134]

I will follow this very closely. My thoughts on this are that a RO system would take these out as my short amount of research indicate to me that the molecules are larger then waters so they should get pushed aside. If you have a water store in your city that produces RO water for people to buy go and talk to then and see if there system can take it out, they should know and if they don't they more then likely can find out.

Also checked my city's web site and they produce a yearly report of what's in the water organic and non Organic and I do see small amounts of this in here as well. I typically aerate and age my water for 2 days only and my fish are big and healthy for what it's worth.

http://www.toronto.ca/water/publications/pdf/drinking_water_analysis_summary_2011.pdf

It's is a very detailed report and in Toronto we have always had a good water system. I believe Toronto was the first in North America to use chlorine to treat water. We also had an event in a small town north west for Toronto about 10 years ago call Walkerton that resulted in some deaths I believe and some very sick people. Due to the town falling asleep at the helm of their treatment facility and did not conduct proper testing. A government Royal Inquest was ordered and the results, shook the municipal governments up a great deal, as well as the public. And now governments have to publish a great deal of information on the results there water testing. The public now has access to a great deal of info of what's in our water.

Good luck


Andrew

[DiscusLoverJeff]

It seems that water quality in many areas is getting more and more chemicals to treat it that unsuspecting people don't have a clue whats really in their water. In most cases, it takes fish owners to point out these issues.

But like Al mentioned, the aquarium hobbyist should make a little noise with their local water supply and find out everything they can about what is in their water.

RO water is a good solution but trust me friends, it gets expensive as hell for some, myself included. I am going through RO filters in weeks where most people takes months. Why? One observation I have discussed with a few people is the booster pump. It pulls more water through and I believe it is pulling up junk from the pipes which are suppose to be cleaned. Another observation is lots of iron in our water it seems as the filters turn an orange/rust color.

Long and short of it, the hobbyist has little to no control over their water supply systems and the only thing one can do is hope the water don't kill your fish. Sure you can invest in expensive filtration systems, but not everyone has that ability. Or you by prime and hope it kills off most things in the water. But Pat not knowing what happened at first almost lost some fish.

[GrayLadyPat]

Update:

Carbon is working so far... The kids seem much better and except for one, who is constipated, the rest are mostly normal.

I am doing more research and I have an appointment with a man from the water district on Tuesday.

[SMB2]

?HMA filter? Can you explain for the abbreviation challenged.

[Trier20]

?HMA filter? Can you explain for the abbreviation challenged.

It's a filter system set up similar to an RO unit minus the RO membrane(s)

[Second Hand Pat]

?HMA filter? Can you explain for the abbreviation challenged.

Heavy metal axed, these are used in the UK to remove heavy metals, chloramine etc. Believe they have a higher thought-put then a RO unit.


http://www.devotedly-discus.co.uk/acatalog/HMA_Filters.html

[aalbina]

?HMA filter? Can you explain for the abbreviation challenged.

Stands for Heavy Metal Axe (came out of the UK I believe). It is a 10 micron filter followed by a carbon block followed by a Carbon multimedia filter. I use the Pentek CBR2-10R as the last filter. Removes lead, iron, manganese etc.

Adam

[SMB2]

Thanks. What is the flow rate? In GPH? or does it filter all the tap water.
The house we just moved in to came with this: http://www.pelicanwater.com/whole_house_water_filters.php

The pre filter is 5 microns then a carbon filter. All new but probably does not remove heavy metals.
As to the OP, I noticed this weekend that my tap water now has a PH of 7.0 instead of it's usual 7.4. Aged 24 hrs 7.4 instead of 7.6/7.7.

[AndLaw134]

Update:

Carbon is working so far... The kids seem much better and except for one, who is constipated, the rest are mostly normal.

I am doing more research and I have an appointment with a man from the water district on Tuesday.

How did your meeting go on Tuesday. Interested to know what the city had to say. Did they provide you some info in any changes ?

[GrayLadyPat]

Update:

I did not have the meeting I was supposed to have on Tuesday... My mother passed a few weeks ago, and the lawyers had to have their say, so I had to go there instead.

However, I did speak to the guy over the phone, and he is emailing me a full analysis of the tap water here in town. I should have that in a few days. He seemed to think that the majority of the chlorites and chlorates have been filtered out before it gets sent down the pipe, so to speak. He also said that there are still additives such as flouride in the water, but that they've been doing that for decades, so that shouldn't have changed with the new chlorine dioxide treatment.

I also talked with my LFS and they are having the same issues as I am. They have opted not to carry a few different species that seem to be sensitive to the changes until they can figure out how to fix the water. They are waiting for my results as well.

[AndLaw134]

Sorry to here about your mother lawyers and the legal system never seem to make thing easy that's for sure. If you get the report I would love to have a look. I am no chemist but I do have some knowledge in some areas of chemistry.

Not sure if you can pm that or not if not send me a pm and I will flip you my email if you like me to have a look.

Are the fish still getting better with the carbon.

[GrayLadyPat]

The fish are indeed getting better with carbon. In fact, except for the loss of a few of my cardinals in the initial problem, the flatfish kids are acting like puppies again. Note: The cardinals were relatively older, so some of the deaths may have been due to age and not handling change well, kind of like me ;)

As soon as I get the results of the analysis, I will email them to anyone who would like them.

[GrayLadyPat]

Well, I finally got the results of the analysis...

...and it told me absolutely nothing I didn't already know. The last analysis they did was right before they started the Chlorine Dioxide treatments... The next scheduled major analysis is next month. As soon as I know something, I will let you all know.

On the discus front, all discus are happy and healthy. The activated carbon seems to have done the trick. As much as we all say that we don't need it, I will probably run carbon in my filters until I can find out what else I can do, or if seachem comes up with a "prime" for chlorates and chlorites. I do have an email off to them as well, but with MLK day, they may not answer til later in the week.

Good luck to everyone!

[GrayLadyPat]

Final update:

The discus are doing great, although I did end up losing a few dither fish. I am down to 2 corys, 7 cardinals, 2 red-light tetras and 2 platys.

The local water utilities are now filtering with Activated Carbon Powder, and the issue is not as bad as it was. It was a scary thing to think that I was going to lose my entire tank because the city changed their disinfectant practices. Alas, there is nothing I can do about it, because in truth, the health of the general population is more important than my discus, but not by much... ;)

I have been running carbon non-stop in my canisters, changing them out once a month (alternating every two weeks) and everything is doing good. They're finally HAPPY with water changes again...

Thanks for everyone's help. Good luck to you all!