Dirt Substrate

[kareen]

Has any one use organic drit as a substrate under there gravel in a plant tank what dose it do to the PH and how long befor it has to be change.

[manzpants92]

Yeah i have it on my planted tank. It really depends on a couple of things

1)if you are planning on having pressurized co2 or not
-If not then allelochemicals (basically how fast the metabolism of organisms reproduce) will accumulate at a slower rate, so your nutrients are going to sustain for a longer period of time. With co2 your plants are going to become a lot more demanding because they want to grow and will take up these nutrients faster so they will be depleated faster

2)if you commit and really try to make your tank one recycling machine
-If you allow the mulm from fish waste and uneaten food to settle on the bottom it will replenish the nutrients that the plants take up from the soil (making it a continuous cycle)

There are a lot of factors. Im doing this now on my 20 gal with some rummies and blue rams (obviously different requirements than discus). I wouldn't recommend trying this with discus due to constant water changes and gravel vac'ing because this is going to strip the unused nutrients from the tank that the plants need to thrive. In the ecology of the planted aquarium by Diana Walstad she comments that she does water changes once every 5-6 months, this is because once you get a dirted planted tank established and going the tank pretty much runs itself and the plants take up all the unused nutrients. It's a pretty crazy idea but it makes a lot of sense. So obviously i wouldn't recommend doing this with discus, not sure what your plan was, but its better to go one way or the other

[Darrell Ward]

It does seem to work well for plants. About a month ago, I set up a 37 gal. I wasn't using by adding about an inch of potting soil in the bottom. I then mixed in some Seachem Flourite I had lying around, then capped it off with the same. My reasoning was, that since the Flourite was made from fractured clay, it would add some iron to the mix. A sponge filter was added along with a heater. For lighting, I added a 70 watt, MH light fixture with a 6500K that came from another tank that got damaged. I hung this about 12" above the tank. Some driftwood and a few plants from other tanks, and it was running. At the moment, it only has Watersprite planted and Java Fern pieces lying on the bottom, but both are growing pretty fast, and the torn up Java Fern I had given up on, is growing babies on the leaves. I need to order some proper plants, and Tetras or something, but I've been busy lately. One thing to keep in mind, is the organic potting soil will often leech some tannins and ammonia into the water at first, so I would not recomend adding fish at first without a good, cycled bio filter. It will settle down after a while though.;) Oh, and I'm sure this setup lowers PH some, I just never have checked it.

[kareen]

Thanks for all your replys I think Im going to set up a 40 gal dirt tank to grow out some plants for my 125 that is planted would it be ok to put some red clay down in the substrate of my 125 to help with the plants in this tank

[Darrell Ward]

Yes. Clay should add iron to the mix.

[boscobear]

I have a 125 gal. heavily planted tank in operation for 28 months. The tank is set up with an under layment of soil, and a nice gravel substrate on top, not sand. The aquarium has a good amount of animals living in it too. There are five discus, 4 over 6 inches, and one I received for free, is shunted, but she's beautiful. Also, 4 angels, 30 rummy nose, 15 glowlights, 12 cardinals, pair of bristle nose plecos, 5 corydorus, a few fiddler craps sneaking around, and snails, a lot of snails, ramshorn, and nitrite snails. I change 75 gallons H2O, every 5 days, but do not vacuum the substrate. There is slight accumulations of mulm toward the rear of the tank where the larger plants are rooted. I have lost one Discus, he jumped onto a lily pad. At the time there were around six lily pads on the water surface in that area. This large lily pad area restricted the discus from being able to flop back into the water. There was also a tight group of plants , two different bacopa, elodea, limaphila, and an onion plant with long winding leaves, which I believe cause the fish to try to leap around the cluster of plant vegetation. I have since limited the lily to three pads, and make weekly trimming a necessary maintenance item.
My PH has always been stable 6.6 , NH4 0.0, NO2 0.0, NO3 .2 TO .5, TDS 120 to 150, KH 4 , GH 71-89 , We are using aged water from a 80 gallon reservoir with partial RO to a line I placed on the reservoir, 60/40 mix with tap water. One very important factor, the aquarium is placed in front of a floor to ceiling window, that is also 6 foot wide like the aquarium. The sun is never direct, a bit in the early morning, this is a Northern exposure. I use T-8 bulbs 6700k . The Plants grow like crazy without any added fertilization, or additional CO2. The only plants we have slow growth with are the Vallisneria Spiralis. This is where I believe the Allelopathy comes into play. The Vallisneria has been living in this aquarium for nearly two year, just has little to no growth, but is in great condition, color, and leaf structure. Plants secrete allelochemicals to protect themselves, and compete for positions with other plants. Then again it could be the water chemistry too.
I recently started an 80 gallon bare bottom tank, for discus grow out, fish yet to be purchased. I use the same water, from the same source, and the water has PH of 7. My wife, and I are in the process of having a large aquarium made, over 400 gallon. Still debating the filtration, leaning to a sump refugium, and the system will be fresh water. We live on the beach here in South Carolina, and I have enough salt water eroding everything. lol
Ron

[Darrell Ward]

Hey Ron, I know every inch of Surfside! Our family owned a house at Deerfield for over 20 years.:D

[kareen]

Does any one know were I can get the Maco red Mexican pottery clay at

[DerekFF]

Amaco clay ? Online is the best place. I've seen it at specialty craft shops but those are becoming a rarity themselves now a days. Only about 5-10% of the total dirt needs to be clay. It will add iron and act as a flocculant. Don't overdo it on the clay. Also don't make the dirt all that deep. 1" is a solid base of dirt. It's potent stuff especially if you go with a miracle grow organic mix. These will however create a lot of ammonia for a while as the organically break down. So just be careful and don't rush it


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[kareen]

How long does the clay last befor you have to add more

[rbarn]

Using dirt is very doable. You need to do it correctly though.
The top soil needs to be "mineralized" before use. And you do want to ad some clay and potash to the mix.

If done correctly with some additional water fert. dosing the dirt will last the life of the tank set-up (years and years)

follow these instructions
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/library/52554-how-mineralized-soil-substrate-aaron-talbot.html

[Darrell Ward]

Honestly, if using potting soils like MG in the orange and white bag, using it straight with a source of iron added will work fine. Doesn't really need to be "mineralized". Perhaps you would need to do this if using topsoil, since potting soil and top soil are different mixtures. Agreed it should last for years, longer than you would want the setup anyway probably. Adding ferts to the water column will certainly help as well.

[ausuriello2nd]

Hello Kareen, May I suggest you get yourself a copy of the second edition of Diana L. Walstad's book Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, Amazon, has this book in stock. The informtation covered discusses the use of organic top soil as a substrate and how to apply and use it in your aquarium. The product called Excavator, which is Clay product which is basically used as a subtrate in reptile setups, is also used in setting up a planted aquarium, using this product care must be taken as it is clay and contains iron, most clay red in color contain iron in them, so be aware if this from gecko. So when using this product apply a very thin layer on top of the soil and then cover with a 1/2" layer play sand or fine grade gravel almost like sand often used especially for planted aquariums. Hope this information helps you out....Al...in Omaha

[rbarn]

Doesn't really need to be "mineralized".

The "mineralization" just speeds up the process that normally happens in the tank. When you mineralize it, you break down the organics into nutrients that are more easily absorbed into by the plants.

[DerekFF]

The mineralizing reduces the initial ammonia spike, large gas releases early on and general ease of use. Takes much longer though. It's a summer time project to mineralized. It's not needed though. As for the clay, it should be mixed in with the dirt so that it acts as a flockulate. Just a layer of clay will work for the fertilizing part, but will do nothing to help settle the dirt like if it was mixed in at 5-10%


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