Wild Caught Tank Bred ????

[FlyTekk]

Im new here and new to discus. Ive kept all kinds of tropical fish including cichlids for over a decade. I have also kept many reefs.

I want to try my hand with discus because they are my wifes favorite fish and its the only tank she'll allow in the living room.

My question is she doesnt like most of the colored discus we see in all the pet stores. She likes the light brown skinned discus with neon blue in the fins and face and black and red markings here and there. With a little research i think these are only wild caught?

My question is has anyone bred these wild caught versions? If so who and how can i buy some?

Ive heard people call these brown discus some have called them green. Not sure what the proper name is. Thanks for all help!

[FlyTekk]

Here is the perfect model....

http://www.aquariumslife.com/freshwater-fish/american-cichlid/brown-discus/

This article says they are also easier to keep.

[Discus-n00b]

Second Hand Pat is breeding her wilds currently, though I don't know anyone selling any.

There are many vendors on this forum that sell these types, tank bred/raised. Wild crosses/Heckel Cross (Kenny or Mike Beals), Alenquers (Discus Hans), Santarems (Discus Hans). Your other option is to get wilds, which are still in season if I am not mistaken, though I don't know who has stock of any.....maybe reach out to Discus Origins (Mark).

[FlyTekk]

The santerems and alenquers are perfect. What are the difference between the two?

[FlyTekk]

Here's a nice shot of what im looking for.

http://www.aquariumslife.com/freshwater-fish/american-cichlid/brown-discus/

[cjr8420]

http://discusfishstore.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=30
http://discusfishstore.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=31
http://discusfishstore.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=39
if not going with real wilds these are the next best thing

[John_Nicholson]

http://discusfishstore.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=30
http://discusfishstore.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=31
http://discusfishstore.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=39
if not going with real wilds these are the next best thing

This is a great place to get fish. Hans is a sponsor here. You might checkout his section to see what all he has going on.

-john

[FlyTekk]

CJR i love all three. Will def order from Han. Any idea what the difference between the 3 are? I cant tell. Looking for 4-6.

[matt56]

Tefe have more noticeable red spots on their sides as they mature. Other then that ive had trouble telling any major differences myself.

[FlyTekk]

I wonder if i should get 6 and try 2 of each. I didnt choose the tank but my wife only wants a tall tank, not long. Given those needs the best i could find that fits is a 60g cube. 24"x24"x24".

My thoughts is maybe start with 4-6 and eventually end with 2 when if they pair? Do you think that would work? Is 4 not enough? is 6 too much?

[Altum Nut]

The Discus Godfather Hans is a great reputable source.
You may want to consider getting 6 to better your chances of forming a pair....or Hans also sells pairs already confirmed.
Discus are also known to do better in larger groups.
A 60 g cube would be great and where did you get your wife...LOL
If your budget allows...we always recommend getting adults or at least sub-adults. Many new hobbiest start off with 2 inch Discus and slack off on regular required maintenece along with min. feedings and wonder why the discus never grow.
The best of luck and photos are always manditory once your set-up.

...Ralph

[FlyTekk]

LOL. Thanks!

So wait, are you saying i can keep 6 in a 60g cube 24" for their whole life? Or should i do 6 to start and end up with 2?

[FlyTekk]

The tank would have a 15g sump and will be barebottom with sock on drain. I would clean sock daily. Syphone or net crap daily from bottom glass. And change water weekly, anywhere from 10-50% depending on what ya prescribe. The sump will be loaded with bio media. And ill have a fluval 105 (i have one laying around) connected to sump for chemi pure and purigen. Some say carbon not needed but i use anyway.

All that being said, will keeping all 6 be okay? Or maybe keeping 4? Or must i eventually end up with 2?

[matt56]

Definitely get 6 or more. Even if you form a pair it wont meant you have to get rid of them. I have 9 and 2 pairs have formed and they are all fine. Not like angelfish. If you are only planning on doing a water change once a week get adults 5 1/2-6"+. Even then everybody would still recommend more then once a week. It doesn't take long at all if you have a system set up. Just remember to age your water. And you will love having a bare bottom tank, its so easy to maintain :). Standard rule is 10 gallons per adult discus, but this can be stretched depending on your water changes. 6-7 discus would do fantastically in that tank.

[Second Hand Pat]

In a 60 I would get no more that six. Also would suggest more WCs per week with six discus in a 60 even with the 15 gallon sump.

[FlyTekk]

How i thought i was gonna get beat for even mentioning 6 in a 60 cube. The water volume wasnt what worried me. it was the 24" swimming distance either way. But ill go with 6. 2 of each species named above.

About the water changes. Is there something i may not be taking into consideration about water quality? For example if my ammonia, nitrites, nitrates are all 0 with weekly water changes would that mean im fine or is there something else. Maybe something that needs replenishing? Im okay with 2x water changes per week. But i originally thought if i take out all fish poop every night either on bottom of glass or in filter sock at end of drain that i would barely get a nitrate.

[Second Hand Pat]

With discus it is more then just nitrates. Discus simply need clean water. They thrive in it and having beautiful, healthy, hungry discus can not be beat.

[FlyTekk]

How much water changed biweekly?

[FlyTekk]

And what is this about aged water? I use a python water changer. I pour in water right from the tap with same temp and use prime dechlorinator. This wouldnt work with discus?

[Second Hand Pat]

With adults I do 50% two or three times a week depending on stocking densities and tank. With sub-adults I aim for daily 50%. With juvies daily 80-90%. Aging is best as it leads to water stability IMO especially if your Ph swrings with aeration over time and/or you have micro bubbles.

[FlyTekk]

Im glad i asked because there is something im not getting. I thought that i would make larger water changes when the fish are bigger because the bio load would be bigger. I thought that while they're small the bio load would be light and i could take it easy on the water changes.

While would i change more water while bio load is light?

[navydiscus]

Because of the amount you feed when they are juveniles. 6-8 times a day. That way you get maximum grow out of your fish. If you read more threads in this foru. You will see everyone harps on water changes and water quality. Also +1 for aging the water. It just stables everything out. Its not too hard especially once you get a routine in place. Imho please read as much as you can before diving right into to this hobby for you and your fishes sake. You would be amazed how much great info is on this site. You wont regret it.

[Second Hand Pat]

I do more WCs if the bio-load is heavy. On your 60 I would consider your bio-load heavy. Also I would not add any other fish with the discus. I have a 230 with sump and nine discus. It gets two 50% a week. :)

[FlyTekk]

Im okay with 2 50% water changes weekly. Its the 90% water change daily thats not gonna fly. And aging? I barely got a tank in the living room and ya think ill be able to get a 50g container in the bathroom? No way. :0)

[Second Hand Pat]

Because of the amount you feed when they are juveniles. 6-8 times a day. That way you get maximum grow out of your fish. If you read more threads in this foru. You will see everyone harps on water changes and water quality. Also +1 for aging the water. It just stables everything out. Its not too hard especially once you get a routine in place. Imho please read as much as you can before diving right into to this hobby for you and your fishes sake. You would be amazed how much great info is on this site. You wont regret it.

Agreed here and yes, please read all the stickies and there is a nice beginners guide in the beginners section.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?86009-Beginner-s-Guide-to-Getting-Started-with-Discus

[cjr8420]

just get an adult proven/maybe pair.will fit ur WC schedule and if u do things right then u will have fry and the wife wont make u kill the BABIES then u expand lol gl

[FlyTekk]

Lol. After reading link second hand pat posted. Im gonna go with 5 discus. To lighten the load. The only reason i wantedd a pair is because i thought i could only fit 2 adult discuc long term. I would get 4 to be even easier but that doesnt sound like a good idea due to aggression. I will post pics. Thanks all for your help!!!!

[TNT77]

The column is fine for 6 discus but I worry about a 2ft footprint for that many. jmo

[FlyTekk]

That was my concern till the great guys here convinced me otherwise.

[100fuegos]

Two things none has mentioned, if Ammonia / Nitrite = 0 then Nitrate will definitely will not be 0. And second, stay away from carbon other than as a temp solution to remove meds from the water.

I think you should read and read and read before even getting your tank, there are tons of good info in this very same site.

[FlyTekk]

Ive had 0 am 0 trites and 0 trates for years in my geophagus tapajos tanks. Same for reef.

What will carbon do to discus that is doesnt do to any other freshwater/saltwater fish.

[Discus Origins]

Ive had 0 am 0 trites and 0 trates for years in my geophagus tapajos tanks. Same for reef.

Then it's time for you to buy new test kits...a properly cycled tank will continuously produce nitrates as ammonia secreted by fish and foods get converted to nitrite which are then converted to nitrates. This process never stops and nitrates continue to build up unless removed by another means (biological or mechanical).

Many test kits are only good for a short time after opening, liquid is much better than dry. And certain brands are more accurate than others.

[FlyTekk]

I think ive had many different test kits over the years on various reefs, and cichlid tanks. Either plant life, corals, or denitrifying bacteria mixed with water changes, skimmers, and mechanical filtration to get the stuff out before it starts. Oh and dont forget the clean up crew. The only thing im new at here are discus.

[DiscusBR]

I think ive had many different test kits over the years on various reefs, and cichlid tanks. Either plant life, corals, or denitrifying bacteria mixed with water changes, skimmers, and mechanical filtration to get the stuff out before it starts. Oh and dont forget the clean up crew. The only thing im new at here are discus.

What Mark is telling you is that nitrates will accumulate in a fish tank, unless you have a heavily planted setup with fast growing plants and algae that will consume the nitrates. If you are getting 0 nitrates after a few days that means one of three things: 1. your tank is not cycled; 2. your test kit is not working properly; 3. You are not doing the test correctly (for example, not shacking one of the reagents long enough). You can read more about the nitrogen cycle in this forum or online.

[TURQ64]

Second Hand Pat is breeding her wilds currently, though I don't know anyone selling any.

There are many vendors on this forum that sell these types, tank bred/raised. Wild crosses/Heckel Cross (Kenny or Mike Beals), Alenquers (Discus Hans), Santarems (Discus Hans). Your other option is to get wilds, which are still in season if I am not mistaken, though I don't know who has stock of any.....maybe reach out to Discus Origins (Mark).

There are also Homeboys with American bred wild/domestic crosses aside from foreign imports at considerably lower prices.....Myself and JamesP come to mind.............Gary

[Discus-n00b]

Aye there are, just haven't seen them posted for sale in a while so I didn't want to throw names out there. Last I saw was James had no more for sale, hey maybe I'm wrong or missed it. I tend to be on the lookout, as I would love some myself lol!

[FlyTekk]

Any pics on those discus?

As for nitrates.... "About the water changes. Is there something i may not be taking into consideration about water quality? For example if my ammonia, nitrites, nitrates are all 0 with weekly water changes would that mean im fine or is there something else. Maybe something that needs replenishing?"

I was simply making an example of all things considered equal if all my levels were fine is there something else i should look out for. Maybe there are minerals in water i should look out for or something. I didnt mean to start a nitrate debate and never assumed my nitrates will be 0 in this discus tank.

Anyone who believe the only way to have 0 nitrates is to have defective test kits or defective brain is just wrong. A simple google search would unleash a plethora of information. If you ever have a reef anything other than 0 nitrates is unnacceptable.

But again i dont want to argue the point. I was simply trying to move the nitrogen cycle out of the way to see if there was something else i needed to look out for when doing tank maintanence. Thanks for all your patience and help. I spoke with hans last night getting 1 tefe 2 sant and 2 anq.

Should i post pics here or is there a tank thread?

[matt56]

Unless you have a very large refugium, and other means to help control nitrate, such as what you have with a reef tank, then there will never truely be 0 nitrates in the tank. On my tanks i do 90% every day and i always see a very slight shade of color indicating 1-2 ppm of nitrates on my kit. And yes there are minerals that discus and most fish need in the water to grow that gets depleted. By changing out the water often you replenish these, and take out other things such as poop on the bottom and left over food before it starts to really break down. Theres more stuff then just ammonia nitrite and nitrate. However since you don't feed adults nearly as much as juvies and they don't need to grow anymore, id say 50% twice a week is a number to shoot for. And if you get a good routine set up i would go for more. Only takes me about 7-9minutes for my daily tank maintenance :). Plus its always great to see them swim around happily in the fresh new water.

[FlyTekk]

Well said Matt, and i agree. And good to know there are things in water needing replenishing. In saltwater we dose these things and keep our nitrates and phosphates down to 0 which allows for less water changes.

Def going to start with 50% 2 times a week as well as small amount removed daily to get the crap off the barebottom. Also thanks to the info here i will order 3+" discus from hans instead of juvies to help with less feedings and less water changes.

Thanks again.

[matt56]

Well 3 inch is still considered juvie.5"+ are sub adult i think. If you can afford it go for 5" plus. There are others on here as well such as kennys discus you can always contact him and see if hes got any alanquer or other crosses. Just trying to give you some options.

[FlyTekk]

"If you’re thinking of growing out juveniles, or ‘juvies’, ideally you’ll want to acquire three inch specimens which will likely be about four months old. As a general guide, six to eight or even ten fish of this size will do well in a 55 gallon tank, at least until they approach maturity. At this point, you will do well to reduce the number to six or seven. Your second option is to go for larger, older specimens, near adult or adult of four to seven inches."

Thats from the link second hand pat provided earlier in this thread. Sounds to me like 4" is near adult? At Han's 4" is almost double the price of 3+". At 4 inches they are priced beyond my budget unfortunately. But it sounds like 3+" are over 3" so could be 3.5, 3.75.... lol. Just saying they seem the best bang for buck.

[TURQ64]

Aye there are, just haven't seen them posted for sale in a while so I didn't want to throw names out there. Last I saw was James had no more for sale, hey maybe I'm wrong or missed it. I tend to be on the lookout, as I would love some myself lol!

Jim is out, but fortunately, my latest pairing, 9 and 14 bar sibling crosses, have around a hundred fry nursing at present. They will be F2's of the original Heckel/Penang pair, due to being a 9 bar and 14 bar combo...give 'em a few months....Gary

[matt56]

"If you’re thinking of growing out juveniles, or ‘juvies’, ideally you’ll want to acquire three inch specimens which will likely be about four months old. As a general guide, six to eight or even ten fish of this size will do well in a 55 gallon tank, at least until they approach maturity. At this point, you will do well to reduce the number to six or seven. Your second option is to go for larger, older specimens, near adult or adult of four to seven inches."

Thats from the link second hand pat provided earlier in this thread. Sounds to me like 4" is near adult? At Han's 4" is almost double the price of 3+". At 4 inches they are priced beyond my budget unfortunately. But it sounds like 3+" are over 3" so could be 3.5, 3.75.... lol. Just saying they seem the best bang for buck.

Yep, but be aware they will not grow out to their full potential without doing the daily water changes. Thats the reason i suggested 5"+, you would be guaranteed to have a good looking fish. Like i said you could check in with other sponsors here and see their prices for bigger fish, never hurts to look and ask.

[FlyTekk]

Daily water changes until they reach 5"?

And what percentage of water per day?

[FlyTekk]

If i dont do daily water changes and my discus only end up growing to 6" instead of 8" This would be a great thing FOR ME. I dont want/need 8" fish and especially not 10" or 12".

That being said, is it harmful to the fish healthwise?

[matt56]

A 6" fish is a great fish that you will not achieve without the frequent water changes. Anything larger is quite a large discus and anything past 7" is very very large. You could stop doing daily water changes past 5 inches, but it would inhibit them growing much more. Though 5 inches is still a decent fish. Ive never heard of a discus larger then 8.2 inches or had proof of any bigger i should say. Health wise im not certain its fair to the fish to stunt it. If you buy 3 inch fish and do 1-2 water changes a week they will be stunted. The main reason for all the water changes is because of how often you feed juvies with very high protein food. Most people feed frozen beef heart and that gets very very very dirty really fast. If you didnt do daily water changes feeding the fish 6 or so times a day, the water would be too foul for the fish. Keep in mind this is whats required to really grow them out to the nice 6"+ sizes. You can avoid all of this by going with larger fish, but you did say it was out of your price range. All i can recommend is going through all the sponsors on the forums main page, contacting ones your interested in and see their prices for 5"+fish. Or you could try and find a proven pair instead, but some can run up into the 500 bucks range so im not sure about that. Though ive seen some for around 250. http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?102384-PREVIEW-Jan-2013-Forrest-shipment-60-different-strains-(Price-list-included) I know you are interested in the wild variants, but kenny has some nice 5"+ penang eruptions and pigeon bloods for 75, but dont let this phase you from what you really want, just trying to give you options. I apologize if this is overwhelming or sounds like im trying to get you out of wanting discus, i just want you to be aware of you are getting into with juvies and the care required to grow them out to their potential. If you want you can always pm me any questions. Also he has some 4" heckel crosses,they are 4 inches which isnt ideal, but better then 3 inches.

Edit: The amount to change varies. If you have 7 or so in a 60 gallon i would really aim for 80%, preferably 90 but some people dont like to see their discus laying on their sides, then when they get large say around 4 1/2-5" you could try lowering it to say 40-50% and if they react well to it then go for it. As i said before when you get a system set up and a routine going it really goes by fast.

[FlyTekk]

Awesome information Matt! Thanks so much!

[FlyTekk]

Guys here is my tank thread as promised with pics..... Hope to hear from ya there. THanks!

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?103001-60g-Rimless-Cube&p=968251#post968251