Runt not doing well....

[Crystalwaters]

I bought some 1" discus end of June, around 7 months ago. I struggled with them at first, unaware of how to properly care for baby discus. My snakeskin runt remained tiny, still no more than 2". The other discus are now 4-5". This runt has stopped eating, it's day 3 today. I thought the problem was that the runt was bullied/intimidated, but food will float by and there will be no attempt to eat it.
Wondering what people's thoughts are about moving this discus into a tank solo or a community with small dither fish. Will this stress the discus more? Will I end up with a new runt in my tank? 55 gallon tank, 6 discus total.

http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii617/AquariumsAnonymous/Discus/Discus%20Fish%202013/Discus%20Fish%20January%202013/2013-01-2810-1_zps8ca3338a.jpg

Symptoms: not eating, hiding behind filter intake

What medications/ treatments: none used yet for this issue.

Tank size and age, number and size of fish: 55 gallon, 6 discus (2-5"), 4 threadfin rainbowfish

Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water: Water is changed 5 times weekly 60%, the other two days 27% and 40%. (WCs on other tanks those days). Water is aged for around 24 hours, heated and aerated. Tank is bare bottom.

Parameters and water source; temp 85C, ph 6.8
no ammonia , no nitrite reading, nitrate reading less than 5, municipal water
*the first day the discus stopped eating I double checked the water for amm, no2...also checked pH of tank and aged water, matched.

No new fish/plants added recently

[Skip]

there will ALWAYS be a RUNT when you buy fish that small.. ALWAYS>.

he is doing his job.. let him be..

when you see fish sold by sponsors.. you DON"T SEE all the fish that were CULLED..

one of my contest fish.. stayed small after i move the 8 from the rest of the spawn.. never go much food.. nor grow.. then he died.. his job was done..
if you get rid of him.. their will be another guy at the bottom.. now you have 2 stunted fish

ps.. RUNT (good eye/body ratio, just stays small) and STUNTED (large eye/body ratio stays small) are 2 different things.

[sammy]

there will ALWAYS be a RUNT when you buy fish that small.. ALWAYS>.

he is doing his job.. let him be..

when you see fish sold by sponsors.. you DON"T SEE all the fish that were CULLED..

one of my contest fish.. stayed small after i move the 8 from the rest of the spawn.. never go much food.. nor grow.. then he died.. his job was done..
if you get rid of him.. their will be another guy at the bottom.. now you have 2 stunted fish

ps.. RUNT (good eye/body ratio, just stays small) and STUNTED (large eye/body ratio stays small) are 2 different things.

I don't agree with that at all. I respect Warlock's experience and knowledge but I do not agree with that philosophy. I have pulled the runt and put in in another tank - and it has done great and the ones that he was in with have done fine without him. Rarely have I seen the aggression redirected towards another silmilar sized fish. Look at it this way, if you do nothin it will die. Period. It is your obligation as the owner to save them. The most successful relocation i've had was putting a 2.5 incher in with a tank of 6.5's - 7's. You would think thats nuts - Truth is the bigger fish didn't find him as a threat at all and left him completely alone to eat and live. He actually became the shadow of a fish that dwarfed him and they were inseparable. I had an experience 2 months ago - a tank of 5 3"'s and a 2.5. The agressive (proven female) was kicking the hell out of the runt and I was waiting for a new tank to cycle to get him into. One of the blue diamonds in the tank repeatedly blocked the agressor to protect the runt. This was the first time I saw that behavior in discus to that degree and I had many people witness if as I found it amazingly cool. I do know major breeders write off the runt and in their operations it has to bee that way. The good of the many outweigh the good of the few. However - in a micro situation, which many of us enjoy our fish, even the runts, I don't see the need for it. I know from personal experience if you do not pull the runt it will die a lousy death and it is NOT a fact that the aggressor will move on to another fish. So much of our time is spent trying to save these fish when they are sick, I don't understand how one could be written off as "expendable" in a home tank. I completely understand that belief in breeding operations, but not in a home tank.
Lastly I can also tell you from experience that runts ( or any discus I have know ) do not do well by themselves. They are social fish and I think they should be kept in groups of the same size or extremely different sizes. I once kept a 7 incher for 4 months with 5 -- 3" turqs and it was the most peaceful tank you could ever imagine.

[Skip]

I don't understand how one could be written off as "expendable" in a home tank.

come to NADA 2014 Austin.. and your perception of fish will be changed..

ps.. do you disagree also.. that there is a difference between STUNTED and RUNTED fish..

[sammy]

come to NADA 2014 Austin.. and your perception of fish will be changed..

ps.. do you disagree also.. that there is a difference between STUNTED and RUNTED fish..

Warlock, You are a wealth of knowledge and a great resource. Of course there is a difference between a runt and stunted. As I stated I meant no disrespect to you or your views, I simply disagree with that philosophy not on some weird unproven theory but on the facts that I have seen that contradict your statement in this case. I typically and 100% behind your techniques. And while I have your attention I would like to know how to join NADA. Thanks

[Skip]

Warlock, You are a wealth of knowledge and a great resource. Of course there is a difference between a runt and stunted. As I stated I meant no disrespect to you or your views, I simply disagree with that philosophy not on some weird unproven theory but on the facts that I have seen that contradict your statement in this case. I typically and 100% behind your techniques. And while I have your attention I would like to know how to join NADA. Thanks

was just asking about that.. SOME people.. don't know or have thought there was difference between runt/stunted.. LOL
i prefer NOT to buy fish under 5" .. i don't want to run into this problem anymore.. even though i am in the CONTEST>> LOL
http://www.discusnada.org/nada/join.html

[sammy]

I agree - I don't really seek out anything under 4 now - actually I prefer to by incredibly sick fish that drive me nuts and keep me up all night changing water. (This morning they were still alive) Thanks for the link.

[Skip]

I agree - I don't really seek out anything under 4 now - actually I prefer to by incredibly sick fish that drive me nuts and keep me up all night changing water. (This morning they were still alive) Thanks for the link.

lol

[Crystalwaters]

Thanks, for both opinions. This has been a debate in my home for the last few days. Hubby saying move him, me saying he's the runt leave him. I do not have other discus so this one would be alone if removed. My plan is to get more discus in the spring, not sure if he'll make it until then.
How late in a discus' development will breeders cull? Are culls are done after the discus is one inch or more sometimes?
Thanks again for the opinions, I will share them with hubby and hope we make the best decision for this little one!

I will never buy one inch discus again :undecided:

[Skip]

Breeders cull the obvious physical traits.. belly sliders.. missing fins, deformed skulls. etc..

but depending on the breeder.. they cull all during development to 2-3" or so.. from the guys i talk to and see their fish..

a newbie MISTAKE.. we all make. is buy smaller and cheaper.. cuz they will grow out just as nice at the expensive larger fish..

FALSE!! (if your a newbie)
its really hard work HOWEVER.. you will learn from it.. so we all have to start some where>. :)

[Crystalwaters]

Thanks again....and only one more question, would it help to split the tank, giving the runt a section where the discus can still see each other but no one can bully him?

[Skip]

Thanks again....and only one more question, would it help to split the tank, giving the runt a section where the discus can still see each other but no one can bully him?

i had a runt.. that was getting clobbered all the time.. i left in there. .didn't eat much and hid alot.. he ended up growing into a pretty nice turq and dwarfed the to others..

some move them.. some just let nature work it out.. i am the later.. *wasn't when i was newbie.. but now.. yes..

its up to you.. you have to learn one way or another.. this is no right way.. but there is experience to learn from..

[sammy]

When I say they are social I wouldn't really get discouraged about keeping one alone. Certainly they are social but truth be told if one of mine gets sick it is in the QT tank by itself for at least a month. I had a real mean 2.25 inch discus who was just plain nasty. He was by far the most aggressive discus I ever met. He would go after ANY size even much much larger then him. He ended up living alone actually for many months until I found someone who wanted him. He was fine health wise. Somewhat antisocial and dysfunctional - but healty

[cjr8420]

I don't agree with that at all. I respect Warlock's experience and knowledge but I do not agree with that philosophy. I have pulled the runt and put in in another tank - and it has done great and the ones that he was in with have done fine without him. Rarely have I seen the aggression redirected towards another silmilar sized fish. Look at it this way, if you do nothin it will die. Period. It is your obligation as the owner to save them. The most successful relocation i've had was putting a 2.5 incher in with a tank of 6.5's - 7's. You would think thats nuts - Truth is the bigger fish didn't find him as a threat at all and left him completely alone to eat and live. He actually became the shadow of a fish that dwarfed him and they were inseparable. I had an experience 2 months ago - a tank of 5 3"'s and a 2.5. The agressive (proven female) was kicking the hell out of the runt and I was waiting for a new tank to cycle to get him into. One of the blue diamonds in the tank repeatedly blocked the agressor to protect the runt. This was the first time I saw that behavior in discus to that degree and I had many people witness if as I found it amazingly cool. I do know major breeders write off the runt and in their operations it has to bee that way. The good of the many outweigh the good of the few. However - in a micro situation, which many of us enjoy our fish, even the runts, I don't see the need for it. I know from personal experience if you do not pull the runt it will die a lousy death and it is NOT a fact that the aggressor will move on to another fish. So much of our time is spent trying to save these fish when they are sick, I don't understand how one could be written off as "expendable" in a home tank. I completely understand that belief in breeding operations, but not in a home tank.
Lastly I can also tell you from experience that runts ( or any discus I have know ) do not do well by themselves. They are social fish and I think they should be kept in groups of the same size or extremely different sizes. I once kept a 7 incher for 4 months with 5 -- 3" turqs and it was the most peaceful tank you could ever imagine.
all i got from this was u own a proven 3" discus lol.

[sammy]

That's too bad - I thought I was more helpful then that

[cjr8420]

That's too bad - I thought I was more helpful then thatwhat works for u doesnt always work for someone else or even ur self again with different fish like the mixing of sizes.so many different variables between discus in general. .imo a cull is a cull if removed will another take its place and become stunted maybe yes maybe no.it depends on the fish and care they get.i have removed the runt and had a new one take its place.glad it didnt for u but it does happen same as mixing sizes not always working out like it did for u.but leaving it in the tank will help the rest to stay more uniform.and like skip said it serves a purpose.discus are not ment to be bought at quarter size to home aquarist.so if bought that small be ready to still need to cull some.

[sammy]

what works for u doesnt always work for someone else or even ur self again with different fish like the mixing of sizes.so many different variables between discus in general. .imo a cull is a cull if removed will another take its place and become stunted maybe yes maybe no.it depends on the fish and care they get.i have removed the runt and had a new one take its place.glad it didnt for u but it does happen same as mixing sizes not always working out like it did for u.but leaving it in the tank will help the rest to stay more uniform.and like skip said it serves a purpose.discus are not ment to be bought at quarter size to home aquarist.so if bought that small be ready to still need to cull some.
I find this board most useful when you have various succesful options. I grow out my own - personally would never buy small discus. Did that when I first got into it and learned from that mistake. When I cull I give away the ones I don't want. Everyone can do anything they want - but when my opinion is asked, I will give it.

[sammy]

all i got from this was u own a proven 3" discus lol.

By the way, I merely mentioned it was a proven female only because some people have the false belief that the females are not as aggressive.

[cjr8420]

I find this board most useful when you have various succesful options. I grow out my own - personally would never buy small discus. Did that when I first got into it and learned from that mistake. When I cull I give away the ones I don't want. Everyone can do anything they want - but when my opinion is asked, I will give it.


By the way, I merely mentioned it was a proven female only because some people have the false belief that the females are not as aggressive.yep everyone can do what they want but posting u have a 3" proven female tells me u are not doing something right with growing ur fish and it probably should have been a cull long b4 being proven.
i got opinions to :P

[sammy]

yep everyone can do what they want but posting u have a 3" proven female tells me u are not doing something right with growing ur fish and it probably should have been a cull long b4 being proven.
i got opinions to :P
Right, not only are were responsible for their health and well being, but we are responsible when they stop growing (stunted). Just so I get it...in your opinion...are you telling me you can't get award winning fish from stunted parents? My opinion....you probobly culled out your best fish. No biggy - we're all learning here.

[Bill63SG]

Right, not only are were responsible for their health and well being, but we are responsible when they stop growing (stunted). Just so I get it...in your opinion...are you telling me you can't get award winning fish from stunted parents? My opinion....you probobly culled out your best fish. No biggy - we're all learning here.

One of the possible reasons its stunted is it is some how flawed,so no,imo,you cant get award winning fish from it.Unless you bred and bred and culled and culled its spawn.

[sammy]

I guess to continue this discussion we should come up with agreed ages vs. sizes which are considered stunted.

[sammy]

One of the possible reasons its stunted is it is some how flawed,so no,imo,you cant get award winning fish from it.Unless you bred and bred and culled and culled its spawn.

Bill the more I think about your theory I like it - it makes sense - but wouldn't the same rules apply that if you have 2 healthy fish spawn and you get 20 % stunted wouldn't 2 stunted parents spawn produce 20% not stunted? I've got to go look in my library and see what I can come up with - this stunted concept intriques the hell out of me. I've never bred wilds but have to wonder if wilds create a % of stunted fish or is it mostly because of inbreeding 10 billion times?

[Bill63SG]

maybe in the wild,the stunted ones arent as vigorous,getting the food,slower,and are naturally culled?Then if two stunted happened to spawn,their 20% would have a better chance at survival?My head is going to explode,I thought I was done with school.

[Mgardner]

Can I ask a question?
I have a similar situation. I recently bought two 3.5" from a sponsor. They took a long time to acclimate. I don't have a QT, so I did a two hour acclimation. The turq is finally eating and doing well. However, the red hasn't eaten in weeks. He does swim but food will float by him and he won't eat. He's skinny and I'm seeing the pinching on his forehead.
It's been 6 weeks. I have a small 5 gal tank that has community fish, but I don't want to move him in unless I have to.
Suggestions?
Thanks, Megan

[Skip]

Can I ask a question?
I have a similar situation. I recently bought two 3.5" from a sponsor. They took a long time to acclimate. I don't have a QT, so I did a two hour acclimation. The turq is finally eating and doing well. However, the red hasn't eaten in weeks. He does swim but food will float by him and he won't eat. He's skinny and I'm seeing the pinching on his forehead.
It's been 6 weeks. I have a small 5 gal tank that has community fish, but I don't want to move him in unless I have to.
Suggestions?
Thanks, Megan

you need personal responses.. go to the disease section.. and start a new thread.. hijacking this thread would help you get the answers you need

[Crystalwaters]

Thanks guys for all the opinions and discussion. ALL of it is appreciated, and getting different perspectives helps me and others learn :)

The little guy still didn't eat today. During their water change he scooted over to be with the group and stayed with them until the tank was nearly full again. If he doesn't eat tomorrow I will likely quarantine him. If he stays I'm worried he won't eat again, in quarantine away from bullies, he might have a shot. Either way I'm not very hopeful but now I have a better understanding why this happens and why buying such small discus is a risk.

I will update of course, thanks again everyone.

[GrayLadyPat]

I have a stunted runt. We named him Mini Me...He is my favorite fish for a couple of reasons...He is always friendly, and he is always right there in the middle of the tank, regardless of whether the bully is out there or not. He reminds me of Dory from the Finding Nemo movie...just "swim swim swimming" and ignoring the rest of the world...

If he ever stops eating, I would treat him just as I would treat any other discus in my tank. (i.e. change the water, look for a diganosis if he looks ill, etc...) Not so much because I want to go to the ends of the eart to keep a stunted runt alive, but because if he has something then it's possible he could transfer it to the other discus. If you want to put forth that much effort, then QT him and see if you can save him. Otherwise, as someone else says, let him do his job, and then when necessary, "retire him to the azaleas"...(saw that in another thread and I borrowed the saying)

Good luck in whichever you decide to do.

[Crystalwaters]

He's in bad shape today :( I put him in quarantine with epsom salts. He's bloated today, his nostrils (not sure if that's what you call them) look red, his cheeks line is reddish too, not his gills but the area in front. He's got very little energy to control where he swims and he's trying to stay floating at the top of the tank. I will get video but wanted to get him set up first. He is next to his buddies, they are all staring at him from the other tank. My fingers are crossed but it doesn't look good. Video soon, thanks everyone for your thoughts :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHwr6U-CpoM

[sammy]

I have a few thoughts and if you want to do a parameters chart and lets take this up as a group in the sickness/medicine thread. My immediate thought is that if he was being rammed by the larger fish his bloat could be from swollen internals. I assume your QT tank shares the same parameter - Bloat from aggression was something I dealt with alot in angelfish. I honestly haven't seen it in discus but i've always pulled the beaten fish before it would get that damaged. If it isn't eating you know its not from food. I need more info.

[Crystalwaters]

I have a few thoughts and if you want to do a parameters chart and lets take this up as a group in the sickness/medicine thread. My immediate thought is that if he was being rammed by the larger fish his bloat could be from swollen internals. I assume your QT tank shares the same parameter - Bloat from aggression was something I dealt with alot in angelfish. I honestly haven't seen it in discus but i've always pulled the beaten fish before it would get that damaged. If it isn't eating you know its not from food. I need more info.


Thanks, I did complete the questionnaire. But symptoms have changed today. Still not eating very weak and staying at the top of the water as much as possible. The other difference, I've added epsom salts 3 tbs (15 gallon tank) to the quarantine tank only. I will double check parameters today. Other discus are hungry and begging for food. I haven't tried to feed this guy today.

Symptoms: not eating, hiding behind filter intake

What medications/ treatments: none used yet for this issue.

Tank size and age, number and size of fish: 55 gallon, 6 discus (2-5"), 4 threadfin rainbowfish

Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water: Water is changed 5 times weekly 60%, the other two days 27% and 40%. (WCs on other tanks those days). Water is aged for around 24 hours, heated and aerated. Tank is bare bottom.

Parameters and water source; temp 85C, ph 6.8
no ammonia , no nitrite reading, nitrate reading less than 5, municipal water
*the first day the discus stopped eating I double checked the water for amm, no2...also checked pH of tank and aged water, matched.

No new fish/plants added recently

[GrayLadyPat]

Just a question, because I am relatively new at this, but...

Is it possible that he crashed into the side of the tank while running from the bully? He almost looks a bit bruised around the eyes...

[Skip]

Epson ?

[Crystalwaters]

Yes! or possibly the filter output he's been hiding behind. Have 2 discus that bully him. he's clamping his pectoral fins now....starting to think I should put this guy out of his misery :( I am too late treating him i think.

Warlock: thought the salt would help the bloat. Newbie mistake?

About a month ago, one of my turquoise discus was bloated, shimmying and swimming with head down. I treated the entire tank with epsom salt and fasted them for 24 hours.
They were all eating fine after that. I reduced how much food I was giving at each feeding too. This guys always been a loner but at food time he was eating like the other discus. No fear. Then he just stopped eating and started hiding. His head pointed down a bit.
A little more history....i'll have to look exactly when....I treated these discus for tapeworms. They did have tapeworms, what an awful sight. Treated with Prazi, a few weeks later treated again.

[Skip]

Didn't think he was bloated.
Anything longer than a few hours.. and its more then salt will cure

[sammy]

Didn't think he was bloated.
Anything longer than a few hours.. and its more then salt will cure

Dead on - my advice for what its worth. Treat with prazi and leave him alone. He probobly is internlly injured or sick. Prazi won't hurt him if he doesn't need it - and time will heal him if he's not horribly injured internally. Treat with Prazi tonight and step back for a few days. Give him time. He may suprise you.

[Crystalwaters]

Thanks, I have prazi on hand! Doing it now!

[sammy]

When I first got into discus I PANICKED when I ran into anything. The more you learn the more control you will have over these situations. Many fish that I "put out of thier misery" I could save today. That sucks to say but it is true. When you have a passion for these fish you will find a way to save them.

[Crystalwaters]

thanks for the encouragement! I don't want to jinx it but he's waving at me again, moving his pectoral fins instead of clamping. His face doesn't look as red but it's tough to tell, I don't have a light on the tank. We're having a bad storm right now, hope we don't lose power over here! I'll update in a few days :)

[Crystalwaters]

:crazy:
This little guy is doing much better but I noticed he has stuff hanging / falling off from inside his gills. It's driving him nuts right now, trying to dart around to get it to fall off. Around 0:12 into the video, you see a piece fall off and fly by the heater, very tough to see anything after that, so took photos of what I saw fall off.
This looks like gill flukes to me, some research on simply discus led me to this site...http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?86451-Are-your-Fish-scratching-on-rocks-and-decorations. Thanks so much sammy! He was clamping his fins ready to die last night, the prazi is helping, and quickly!

http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii617/AquariumsAnonymous/Other%20-%20Public/Other%20-%20Locked/1b92ac37-b104-4bf0-845f-9ccbdab6657b_zps23790055.jpg
http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii617/AquariumsAnonymous/Other%20-%20Public/Other%20-%20Locked/de7f34f2-136a-47d0-a925-d3c704c1218a_zps24d3f458.jpg
http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii617/AquariumsAnonymous/Other%20-%20Public/Other%20-%20Locked/84ed7f6c-8cff-4f2c-ae17-f487130197af_zps387d476c.jpg
http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii617/AquariumsAnonymous/Other%20-%20Public/Other%20-%20Locked/fd31a498-7f7d-4ecb-9cdc-834e9e8235f3_zps691178ec.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVyVOs-qj5U

[Eward]

Wow, some responses are pretty snarky. Newbies like me come here for guidance, and get a bit turned off when other members are unkind to each other

[Eward]

I wanted to post this on a different thread. Don't know why it is here... Obviously it doesn't apply to this post. My apologies

[Crystalwaters]

An update, still in quarantine alone, this discus still hasn't eaten. His poo is normal, his color is normal (not dark). He's also swimming around the tank, hanging out in different areas. Super skinny now, head is disproportionately (big word of the day LOL) large and head down a lot. I am treating him with prazi, daily water changes. I am also treating the discus in the 55 gallon. (If this is flukes, I assume the other discus have it, just not as badly infested)
I was wondering if it would be beneficial to move him back in with his friends. Should I wait until he eats?
If there is anything I might be missing, advice is always appreciated.
Good news is I got a brand new 90 gallon for Valentine's day :) Don't want to move any discus until I know health issues are cleared up.

[sammy]

I absolutely wouldn't move him back. What are you offering him to eat? Try live blood worms.

[Crystalwaters]

I absolutely wouldn't move him back. What are you offering him to eat? Try live blood worms.

Thanks, I'll leave him for now :) Would hate to see him bullied and go back to square one. I won't find live bloodworms locally, but I'll try. I do have frozen.
I've tried high quality flake (beefheart, earthworm, spirulina...) NLS discus pellets, NLS thera-A pellets, and freeze-dried blackworms.

The QT temp is around 86, it was 82 until a few days ago, hoping that helps as well.

[sammy]

Sometimes the live worms will entice the fish enough that he wants to eat him. Huger strikes often are deadly with these fish. I do think it safe to say he's eating something though...he just may not be eating while you are looking.

[Crystalwaters]

I also believe he found food somewhere, attached to the filter intake maybe, only rinsing it every 2nd day. Put in 4 frozen bloodworms about a 1/2 hour ago and walked away from the tank, only 2 in there now. When I'm not around he's swimming around happy, as soon as I approach he tries to hide. Very scared of me right now but I suspect feeling vulnerable because of sickness and loneliness. Thanks for the suggestion, still going to see if I can find live ones locally.

[GrayLadyPat]

I thought of something that might help...

Take a look at your tank surroundings... Is there a window? is there overhead flourescent lights? Are the lights in your tank hood really bright? Mine hate for me to open the drapes on the sliding door until after the sun makes it past the apex of our roof, and is shaded a bit.

Just a thought...

[Crystalwaters]

thanks for the tip. No lights on the tank, not in direct sunlight either. I made an L shape with the 55 and the QT so he can see his buddies. I call him a he but don't know of course!
I will keep an eye open for other things that might be spooking him, unexpected noises, cats.

*Edit* Darn, I just realized what the problem might be, didn't change the bottom of the tank to white and tank is on a wood stand. I'll see if I can slide some cardboard under it today!

[sammy]

If not tape something under it

[Crystalwaters]

I did put white cardboard under the tank which seemed to help. Also, I think he's getting used to the quarantine. Still not eating, no feces (only that once). Today he's taking a turn for the worse. Fins clamped head down 45 degrees. Strands of slime coming off his fins.

In quarantine tank, 15 gallon, since Feb 9 (9 days ago). He was dark, weak, pectoral fins clamped, breathing heavy unable to control swimming. Added prazi and slime was coming out of the fish's gills the following day. A few days later, fish appeared to be improving, no fin clamping, normal color. Continued with Prazi suspecting gill flukes.

quarantine tank:
pH 6.8
temp 88F
50% changes daily
getting 0 for amm, NO2 and NO3 is less than 5.

I don't have much hope for this little guy, but my main concern is the healthy discus. Trying to understand if what I'm dealing with is a parasite, or bacterial infection, or a physical problem that I didn't identify (he's always been a fast breather, gills always flared more). I'm treating my other discus with prazi, but in the back of my mind, wondering if this is doing more harm than good since I don't know for sure the problem is flukes. My main tank parameters are the same, but I see small amounts of slime stuck to the filter intake or a plant in the tank of my "healthy" discus. Now suspecting that's not normal and perhaps a symptom.

I'm anxious to move these guys into a bigger tank, should I continue to treat for flukes the full 21 days before moving? Should I try something different with my little one in quarantine?

[PP_GBR]

C:

How is the fish doing? Any progress?

[Crystalwaters]

Thanks for following up :D No more slime coat falling off, he swims around normally but when I approach he tries to hide, head down. Still not eating, think it's been 2 weeks now.
I am still treating both tanks with Prazi.

[sammy]

Hmmm - You've got to get him to eat or you will lose him. Any type of live food you can get your hands on?

[Crystalwaters]

The LFS only carry frozen or freeze-dried, with the exception of one, which just got live microworms today. I have made a "looking for" post on the local forum hoping a hobbyist might have blackworms or something similar.
Will microworms be too small? (I've never seen them).
Also have BBS eggs, but worried those are too small as well.

[cjr8420]

check with dan if he can ship live blackworms to norway canada shouldnt be a problem lol

[Crystalwaters]

thanks cjr, just checked his site, overnight shipping to Canada. Emailing Dan, I might have to see if another fishkeeper in the area wants some too, 1lb minimum seems like a lot, only have 6 discus.

[Crystalwaters]

*sniff* *sniff* :( This guy is headed to the big fish bowl in the sky. Found him this morning stuck to the filter intake, horrible shape. Thanks for everyone trying to help, the support is greatly appreciated. Even though he didn't make it, I learned a heck of a lot from everyone :) Thanks for the support!

[PP_GBR]

C:

Sorry for your loss. At least yours died of illness and mine died of my stupidity.