need suggestions about water changes

[SaddlebredLady]

Hi all! well, I am in love with Discus, and I've always thought they needed pure RO water to be healthy, so figured I couldn't have them. But after reading more I see it *might* be a possibility. I love fish, so I don't want to get them if I'm set up for failure at the get go.

So here are my issues/questions: Do Discus really "need" that many water changes? I have Angels, and some angel breeders say you must do daily 50%+ water changes, while I can say i do 25% weekly and mine are healthy and spawning.... So it is opinion or is it an actual fact that Discus NEED the water changed every other day at the least?

What is the max PH the Discus will *thrive* in?

I get Juvies are more sensitive (for Angels as well) but do Juvies with a good filtration system and careful after feeding cleanup really need a daily water change?

water changes are not an issue as far as work goes, i love to tinker with my tanks. They are an issue as far as the actual water goes. I have well water that has a PH of 8+ (it is as high as the API kit scale goes or higher). To deal with this for my angels (and i have tried angels in well water when I was a kid, they live for 6mo to a year and never thrive) I mix RO water with my well water to ring it down to 6.4-6.8. This has worked for me, and the planted tank has helped keep nitrates down, and everything is happy. AND when I do water changes, dumping in room temp water when I only change 25% it isn't a shock to them.

My RO unit makes two gallons a day (culligan, under the house deal for dinking water)

So, my big question is, without spending thousands on either tapping into the township water or thousands on a new RO system, or tons of money buying from walmart (which is what i do currently, I get about 15 gallons at a time from their RO unit, and then get water from my barn which doesn't go through the softener system, which I'm told softened water will hurt them), how do I do water changes?

I don't currently have a tank or barrel to heat the water before doing a WC, but that is easily fixed for the 39g grow out tank I've selected, (but it is a bigger issue in the 125 g tank, my house isn't big enough for 2 of them....) LOL. The PH is my biggest worry, and how often am I going to have to buy water, PLUS once theyre adults, can they be done once a week or do i have to still do 2-3 times a week for adults and daily for juvies? I guess I'm asking, what am I getting into here? and as you are people who may also have had my issues in past, how do I make it something "doable"? My goal is healthy fish, and if I can maybe raise a few spawns i'd love to try, but the main goal is just healthy fish in a display tank.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

There are a ton of "Sticky" notes in every section that may answer a lot of your questions. But only you will know what you can afford and how to proceed.

[SaddlebredLady]

I seem to be missing them then. I've been on this site reading for hours a day the last 4-5 days. I get a general feel, but no flat rules. I can spend some money on fish, i just dont want to spend stupid money. I don't think just getting my feet wet into the discus hobby justifies spending thousnads on water. And if I can't do this without spending thousands on water (in upfront costs) then I am not going to buy discus. Sadly I can't/wont buy 5+" fish at 100+ a pop when I want 10 fish.... And even buying 2.5-3" fish is a large investment and while it probably costs more in the long run, if you have a loss it isn't as significant. I've been keeping fish/freshwater aquariums for 25 years, I would love to try discus, I'm not an idiot so I wont try this if it isn't realistic for me to do. That said, where there is a will there is a way, I just don't see making a huge investment for fish i don't know if I will love or go "eh they're cool the angels are better", surely most people who start up are facing the same battle.... The pros say "you need this this this and this" and that's fine for pros who have made the choice to dedicate their life to Discus, it is another thing for the average hobbiest who may just want to enjoy the fish they purchase, and have the experience of growing them out. IDK maybe the Discus owner have a different mindset about money than I do. I *can* affford tapping in to local water, or having culligan come out and change the current RO unit, I think it would be about the dumbest thing in the world to do for fish that i don't even currently own... Just how I'm looking at it from here....

[DiscusLoverJeff]

What size tank are you considering? Do you have a way to test your tap water parameters?

You can grow out discus of the 3" to 4" size in tap water for sure and even breed in tap water. People suggest RO like myself because it is better for the pairs. You get more success rate in RO water. So with the smaller discus, you can get them cheaper and not spend a ton of money.

If you have a good filter system (depending on tank size) you can cut your water changes down some, but not all the way. I still do 2 50 gallon water changes weekly on my display tanks.

Don't let RO water scare into thinking it is the only way to successfully raise discus, it is just a preference.

I will find some good links for you to read.

[Cullymoto]

I didnt know they made r/o units with such terrible output rates....
When I was shopping for them the smallest I found was a 30 gpd for just over 200 bucks. I bought it and a booster pump unit to push it to approximately 50 gpd. was very easy.
As for a storage tank, go onto craigslist and find a used aquarium of suitable size. I was originally looking for a plastic tank - rain barrel - plywood tank to suit my needs and found that i couldnt beat the prices of second hand aquariums.
You will need a heater and an airstone in the storage tank. That is a must IMO.
As for your mixing of well with r/o, I have never done anything like this so I cant advise. It sounds like youve mixed for a while so you likely have a system figured out for yourself.
You ask if daily w/c is a neccesity.
Answer; No.
Your fish will be colorfull, be healthy (fairly) and they will grow. You will not see 7"+ more like 5" tops, and it will take some time to get them to that 5" top. Daily W/C causes discus to grow like weeds, and be very healthy. Without daily w/c they grow more slowly and are slightly more susceptable to health problems.
I have heard of people keeping discus in some pretty high ph value systems. Certainly above 8 is very high however...
Water softner's make water that is not good for fish. A lot of salt goes in in the softening process. if you were to run a r/o inline after your softner there would be no problems at all.
I hope I've answered your questions.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Here is a good start

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?28937-How-do-I-set-up-my-first-discus-tank

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?35043-The-ease-of-cleaning-bare-bottom-tanks

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?55228-Test-Equipment-and-Testing-Water-for-the-Freshwater-Aquarium

This is for future reading about breeding.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?64729-quot-Discus-Genetics-and-Breeding-Info-and-Discussion-quot

Since you are an experienced fish keeper, some of this information is knowledge you already have.



http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?54900-DI-Units-pros-cons-etc

[Trier20]

I keep all my fish minus breeding pairs who are not breeding in straight tap water with a ph off the charts high. I honestly don't know my ph. My water is also HARD! They are fine in it. What the fish need are consistant water parameters. If you have a ph that doesn't swing much overnight you shouldn't even need to age it. Just be careful of micro bubbles. Grow fish out in a bare bottom tank and feed heavily with high protein foods. 80% daily WCs to ensure clean water for good growth. If you ok with have slightly stunted discus every other day 80% with vaccuuming out food leftover after each meal.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Here is a good investment start to testing your water.

http://www.amazon.com/Hanna-Instruments-Waterproof-Conductivity-Tester/dp/B002ZG8L58/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361116810&sr=8-1&keywords=hanna+meter

This meter reads TDS (total disolved solids), PH and Temp. The price is a bit high but in the long run, it helps keeping your water parameters under control. I use mine to test every tank, 2 times a day and I test my aging barrels everytime before and after I use the water for changes. The TDs in my opinion is more important than the PH of your water. If your TDS is consistant, your PH should be as well.

For example, your TDS from your tap water depending on where you live should be between 175 and 275 normally. If you test this and it is stable on a daily and weekly basis, then you have one issue under control, water parameters. Regardless of how high it is, consistancy is the key.

As far as the rest of your water parameters, I am sure being a fish keeper you already have this, but I will mention it anyway.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4454&cmpid=03csegpl&ref=6111&subref=AA&CAWELAID=525401980&catargetid=1570176956&cagpspn=pla

This will aid you in keeping your other parameters tested. Keep in mind though that some people have issues with tap water and nitrates/nitrites, but again, if they are consistant, then the fish will get use to them as well providing they are not off the charts.

Hope this helps you get a grasps on water conditions.

Don't let discus keeping freak you out, it is really not that hard once you have a control on the basics.

[AndLaw134]

There are a few online filter company's that sell R/O systems of 200 gals a day for around $ 300 filter guys comes to mind.
There are also so a few additives you can put into your water that will help lower your ph and in some cases your hardness. Discuss Buffer by seachem is the one I used. Once again online you can pick it up for about $20 for 2.2 bs/1KG

The seachem would help solve your problems in the short term.

Read the stickies that Jeff posted the links for they will be a big help.

You will get all sorts of folks with a very wide range of options as to how many water changes you need to do. In general consistent water parameters, and fresh water make for the healthiest discus. I change 40% of my water 3 x a week and most folks on this site would indicated I should do more. But there are a wide range of factors involved.

Discus are great I have 63 of them but read and educate yourself on their care as they are also expensive and there is a great collective knowledge with in this pages. Hans the discus guru himself once told me learn from my and others mistakes don't make your own unless you have deep pockets.

Good luck
And welcome to SD

Andrew

[SaddlebredLady]

What size tank are you considering? Do you have a way to test your tap water parameters?

Don't let RO water scare into thinking it is the only way to successfully raise discus, it is just a preference.

I will find some good links for you to read.

THANK YOU! I do already have the API Test kits. It has been a while since I've tested hardness/PH as it doesn't change here thank God!. My understanding of RO water for Angels is that you have to add certain things back in as they can't thrive in straight RO, in order to get around that, I just mixed 1/4 of well water back in. My Well water is off the charts. Hard, tastes like metal, leaves things orange, etc. The RO unit was already installed when in I purchased this house or I would have put in a larger unit. I'm not sure why it is so slow. I do know I can install a larger pressure tank for the RO unit and I'm guessing I could speed it up if it looks like I really want to be a serious Discus breeder rather than just raise some up for a display tank. The Display tank is 125g. I currently house 8 angels and some plants in it. I have people intersted in buying the current angels, and will tear it down and do white sand and drift wood with a few low light plants for the discus. In the meantime I have a 40g that I planned to grow out the Discus in as long as possible (I also have a 20hex but was hoping to put a pair of angels in it as soon as it is returned from my sister)


I didnt know they made r/o units with such terrible output rates....
When I was shopping for them the smallest I found was a 30 gpd for just over 200 bucks. I bought it and a booster pump unit to push it to approximately 50 gpd. was very easy.
As for a storage tank, go onto craigslist and find a used aquarium of suitable size. I was originally looking for a plastic tank - rain barrel - plywood tank to suit my needs and found that i couldnt beat the prices of second hand aquariums.
You will need a heater and an airstone in the storage tank. That is a must IMO.
As for your mixing of well with r/o, I have never done anything like this so I cant advise. It sounds like youve mixed for a while so you likely have a system figured out for yourself.
You ask if daily w/c is a neccesity.
Answer; No.
Your fish will be colorfull, be healthy (fairly) and they will grow. You will not see 7"+ more like 5" tops, and it will take some time to get them to that 5" top. Daily W/C causes discus to grow like weeds, and be very healthy. Without daily w/c they grow more slowly and are slightly more susceptable to health problems.
I have heard of people keeping discus in some pretty high ph value systems. Certainly above 8 is very high however...
Water softner's make water that is not good for fish. A lot of salt goes in in the softening process. if you were to run a r/o inline after your softner there would be no problems at all.
I hope I've answered your questions.
Yes, it is tiny. And thanks for the heads up on the slightly stunted fish. Do they produce hormones like Angels? is that the reason they need such frequent water changes?

Thanks again to everyone who replied, it is food for thought. One other questions. Doing a WC for a 40g is no big deal I can get another aquarium, mix the water ahead of time, with that many WC I might test water with 3/4 well and 1/4RO and see what i get, but the issue is when they are in the 125g, even 65 gallons is just over 50% and finding space (especially anywhere near the 125g) for a tank large enough to hold this water would be difficult. Sadly I can't draw from the tap as all heated water in this house is softened.... i have to go to the barn and fill a 5 gallon "fish bucket" or one of those 5gal water containers they sell for water dispencers in offices and what not (which is what I take to walmart and fill). The work, however, is fine with me. I just didn't know if I had to have 40 gallons of water every single day for water changes... If so this was not going to be doable.... Ok, I will keep reading, I want to know SO much more before I buy any Discus. I'm so pumped and already addicted though, i like challenges, and would love to try to raise a few... Time will tell.

[SaddlebredLady]

There are a few online filter company's that sell R/O systems of 200 gals a day for around $ 300 filter guys comes to mind.
There are also so a few additives you can put into your water that will help lower your ph and in some cases your hardness. Discuss Buffer by seachem is the one I used. Once again online you can pick it up for about $20 for 2.2 bs/1KG

The seachem would help solve your problems in the short term.

Read the stickies that Jeff posted the links for they will be a big help.

You will get all sorts of folks with a very wide range of options as to how many water changes you need to do. In general consistent water parameters, and fresh water make for the healthiest discus. I change 40% of my water 3 x a week and most folks on this site would indicated I should do more. But there are a wide range of factors involved.

Discus are great I have 63 of them but read and educate yourself on their care as they are also expensive and there is a great collective knowledge with in this pages. Hans the discus guru himself once told me learn from my and others mistakes don't make your own unless you have deep pockets. Good luck
And welcome to SD

Andrew


Thanks!!! I have tried the PH lowering products in the past, but I was always freaked out about a crash, so I gave up and slowly raised them to what the current water naturally was (Im at a different location now.... when i first moved here it was a learning experience, I killed a lot of gorgeous angels, sttill hurts to think about it...) I wish there was a way to buy local tap water. I know quite a few of the locals haul water for their cisterns, but I'm not sure if there is a minimum amount/container size. I am friends with neighbors who have paid for tapping into rural water, but I'm not sure if 3-5 visits from me a week would be real welcome after a while, even if I'm paying. If it were the other way around it would get old quick for a 3-5 time a week visitor getting water. LOL. And you are ABSOLUTELY right about learning from others, that is why when I made the choice to be serious about traying to get discus I searched for a forum where I could read first hand what worked and didn't work for others. I get that you have to sort through the posters over time, but I also get that there is no way i can afford to make all the mistakes made in the past by others, regardless of the project I'm involved in.

[Cullymoto]

Discus make hormones yes. (everything does.) these hormones do not impact growth directly, they impact breeding and territorial behaviours and aggression. This aggression can impact other fish of coarse. Water changes does little to negate these hormones. Water changes exist primarily to keep nitrates at 0. Nitrates negatively impact the growth of any fish.
As far as your water situation... Well it sounds like you're in something of a unique situation. I recommend that you take some time to talk to a local water professional. They may be able to adresse your specific needs and turn you onto a solution that works for you.
Large volume tanks are not hard to find. Would need to be food grade. Transfer pumps can be placed inside the tank to push water to your home for water changes, or placed inline and inside if freezing is a possibility. It sounds to me from your descriptions that your a long ways away from being ready to acquire discus, I highly recommend you talk to a water professional. The people at Culligan (for example) are used to fielding these questions and really wont look at you sideways when you tell them you need to upgrade for some fish.
I will say that any time / money and effort you place into making your water system better (and more specifically) and discus friendly, the easier it will be to keep Discus. These fish can live for 10 years, thats an awefull lot of trips carrying a 5 gallon water jug. I would not undertake that.

[SaddlebredLady]

LOL Cullymoto! Tell me about it! Carrying buckets sucks! I currently do my WC with those 5g containers, but I don't mind it because it is only once a week. I do have a culligan system for the softener, and they are the ones who installed the RO unit for drinking water (it comes out right at the kitchen sink).

I was taught Angels that are growing produce a growth hormone and if there are too many young Angels in one area they do not get as large, which is why they said we need to change the water every day while they are growing. Angels aren't crazy about nitrates either, but under 20 is ok, I gather Discus are much more sensitive at under 10ppm.