Bleak FUTURE?

[sammy]

Did you know ornamental fish collecting is an 8 billion dollar industry? There are many who fear that our Discus and all other fish will soon be immune to many of the remedies we use for their most serious illnesses. I have a two part question;
A) Do you believe that we will run into a major immunity problem?
B) What would you do?

[nc0gnet0]

Talk them through it?

[Orange Crush]

A) its possible. There are already problems with people using antibiotics and them not working because there are drug resistant bacteria in the meat people eat from over use of meds in livestock since they live in such filthy conditions.
B) only buy from sorces that you know and trust. Big chains/box stores are going to have fish grown in the worst conditions so they will most likely be exposed to the most meds. Talk to the breeders and ask them if they use meds only when needed or if they use them all the time. Supply and demand. If people dont buy those heavily medicated fish they will stop selling them. Look at how many companies now are turning away from high fructose corn syrups because people got smart to all the health problems it is causing.

[lipadj46]

Talk them through it?

LOL!

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

[Jdizon20]

A) its possible. There are already problems with people using antibiotics and them not working because there are drug resistant bacteria in the meat people eat from over use of meds in livestock since they live in such filthy conditions.
B) only buy from sorces that you know and trust. Big chains/box stores are going to have fish grown in the worst conditions so they will most likely be exposed to the most meds. Talk to the breeders and ask them if they use meds only when needed or if they use them all the time. Supply and demand. If people dont buy those heavily medicated fish they will stop selling them. Look at how many companies now are turning away from high fructose corn syrups because people got smart to all the health problems it is causing.

Wow. Thanks for that perspective. Makes one really think about the importance of buying from reliable sources i.e. simply sponsors. You're not only getting a good deal and beautiful fish but you're actually helping the breed by doing so.

[sammy]

Great thoughts! Do you think that if at some point lets say a pair of Discus were immune to AB - would that trait be carried through to their young or do you think the fish are "clean" out of the egg? Would the immunity become hereditary? I've read that drug dependence sometimes is passed down from parent to child - but we are not fish.

[John_Nicholson]

First discus do not become immune to an AB...the disease that you are fighting becomes immune to the AB....Second it will become a problem and part of that problem is the idiotic advise that is often given out in the disease section here. If you have sick fish and you contact an expert to diagnose it they will laugh at you unless you send a fish it to be processed yet we are often plagued with internet experts who not only give "expert" advise but more times than not is it the wrong advise.

-john

[Kal-El]

First discus do not become immune to an AB...the disease that you are fighting becomes immune to the AB....Second it will become a problem and part of that problem is the idiotic advise that is often given out in the disease section here. If you have sick fish and you contact an expert to diagnose it they will laugh at you unless you send a fish it to be processed yet we are often plagued with internet experts who not only give "expert" advise but more times than not is it the wrong advise.

-john

I agree with John on this one. Some disease do get immune to certain meds and this may be (IMO) cause by over use of med to treat something the fist may or may not have. Over time these disease become immune to certain meds that is commonly use. This is why treating with med should be the last resort and only treat the disease you confirmed to have and not assume your fish have.

[plecocicho]

Bigger problems are hufe farms in eastern Europe and especially in Asia. A lot of those fish swim in antibiotics. Not all farmers are to blame, but you must consider that discus plague came form asian discus. Since then as far as discus go got improved, bit its still a problem for many other fish. Tetrahyma in breed guppies and resistent flukes are a good representation of uncorrect use of antibiotics.

[Kevin C]

I agree with John on this one. Some disease do get immune to certain meds and this may be (IMO) cause by over use of med to treat something the fist may or may not have. Over time these disease become immune to certain meds that is commonly use. This is why treating with med should be the last resort and only treat the disease you confirmed to have and not assume your fish have.

+1

[sammy]

Great comments!

[Skip]

If you have sick fish and you contact an expert to diagnose it they will laugh at you unless you send a fish it to be processed
yet we are often plagued with internet experts who not only give "expert" advise but more times than not is it the wrong advise.

-john

a. CHOP CUT!! andrew soh..

b. ain't that the truth..

[Trier20]

First discus do not become immune to an AB...the disease that you are fighting becomes immune to the AB....Second it will become a problem and part of that problem is the idiotic advise that is often given out in the disease section here. If you have sick fish and you contact an expert to diagnose it they will laugh at you unless you send a fish it to be processed yet we are often plagued with internet experts who not only give "expert" advise but more times than not is it the wrong advise.

-john

Ain't this the truth! Preventative maintenance is key.

[YSS]

part of that problem is the idiotic advise that is often given out in the disease section here.

-john

Couldn't agree more!

[Larry Bugg]

Couldn't agree more!

+2

Internet Experts

[troysdiiscus]

Agree with John and others that too many want to automatically through meds in tank for any illness that they think they have and go to the internet for self medicated advice. Almost like doctors over medicating young children with symptons that they think they have (ADD) and they walk around like zombies. There is a place and time when meds are a must after they have been diagnosed with proper expert advise. I once posed a question on here and asked, "what meds should I have on hand ready to use" and almost all answers were more WC and proper parimeters.... I do think having some wont hurt but if I am doing everything right then they would sit around and go out of date. Makes sense to me...............

[star rider]

I think you'll find a few different thoughts around this subject.
Something to consider, are the fish 'domestic' or 'Wild'

I keep quite a few Wild Angels , both P. Altum and P. Scalare.

there are different schools of thought when you acquire the Wild fishes. are they imported directly to you or are they recieved through a supplier (were they in tanks prior to you)
I personally do not treat most fish with 'preventative' treatment..save for anti parasite medication.

[SMB2]

OK lets throw out the word immune. Immunity has to do with the development of antibodies ( and testifying before Congress).
What we are talking about here are drug RESISTANT parasites/bacteria. These organisms multiply so rapidly that if exposed to a treatment long enough a strain of the organism that is no longer affected by the drug will develop and take over.
Next time you get a sore throat don't be pissed if your Dr. doesn't give you an antibiotic (unless you have a positive culture) as most sore throats are viral. The over use of antibiotics is why all hospitals now have to deal with MRSA (Methicillin Resistant Staph Aureus. And that is just one of many new drug resistant bacteria).

Jon is totally correct. So many people start treating their fish without any reason whatsoever.
I am not an expert, but I bet if people were required to QT a worrisome Discus, read, observe, treat with temp elevation and daily 95% WC for one week (before posting), fully half of the Disease posts would be eliminated.
One may develop medicine resistant diseases in ones own collection but that is unlikely to be passed around to other peoples tanks. It is the proper use of medication in the breeder stock that is key. This is where a large volume of fish can develop and carry drug resistant organisms. That makes knowing your source, like our sponsors, even more important. Drug resistant pathologic organisms will become an issue in the fish trade, just like every place else because of the indiscriminate use of medications. The answer is to keep healthy Discus because they will recover on their own from many illnesses just like you will get over a sore throat.

[sammy]

Thanks for the great responses -I agree that prevention is the key. I also think that the more time you spend around these fish the less you medicate as the constant answer. Certainly when Discus is new to you, I think through anxiety or whatever, you panic, and treat haphazardly trying anything to fix the situation and often your remedy does nothing to help or actually makes it worse. In time you develop a respect for prevention and I can see that in many of you here. I guess the next logical question is do you forsee a time when the diseases,bacteria, etc that are harmful to our fish do become resist to a level that makes an AB is useless?

[shawnhu]

They'll just come out with a new AB to fight the now immune strain of bacteria. If it's worthwhile and has a market, it'll be created.

[John_Nicholson]

They'll just come out with a new AB to fight the now immune strain of bacteria. If it's worthwhile and has a market, it'll be created.

While they may this is still one of the most irresponsible post I have ever read. The miss use of AB is one of the biggest problems that we face in disease control. Not for fish but for people.

-john

[shawnhu]

While they may this is still one of the most irresponsible post I have ever read. The miss use of AB is one of the biggest problems that we face in disease control. Not for fish but for people.

-john

Irresponsible post ever, highly unlikely. Truth in medical evolution, highly probable. You can go with the flow or try to be in denial.

[John_Nicholson]

There is a need to develop new AB becuse people think it is fine to abuse current one. It is the miss use that dramatically reduces the effective life of an AB. As far as it being the most irresponsible ever you may be right. There probably are others that are worse but I don't have the time to review all of the crap that you post.

-john

[MaiaDee]

Did you know ornamental fish collecting is an 8 billion dollar industry?

Did you know people have been keeping and raising fish for over 4,000 years? Why they bothered before glass was invented or what the aquariums looked like I don't know, but still! Guessing they weren't discus...

[Orange Crush]

The miss use of AB is one of the biggest problems that we face in disease control. Not for fish but for people.

-john
+1


Did you know people have been keeping and raising fish for over 4,000 years? Why they bothered before glass was invented or what the aquariums looked like I don't know, but still! Guessing they weren't discus...
Pond Fish

[shawnhu]

There is a need to develop new AB becuse people think it is fine to abuse current one. It is the miss use that dramatically reduces the effective life of an AB. As far as it being the most irresponsible ever you may be right. There probably are others that are worse but I don't have the time to review all of the crap that you post.

-john

No problem John, I'll make it easy for you. Bacteria, like all organisms are constantly mutating. With, or without the "abuse" of AB, bacteria will mutate. There will be a time when what we have on hand will no longer work, due to mutations, not what you feel is abuse. Would you still feel the use of AB is abuse if your grandchild was dying and the doctors didn't know how to treat her, but a last ditch effort of AB? Tell me you wouldn't want to save it's life by trying.

[MaiaDee]

Pond Fish

Yep. You posted as I was google-ing. Still pretty cool.

But yes, I have to agree with the statement that AB's are overused everywhere, not just with the fish. We'll be very lucky in the future if the only AB resistant strains of bad any kind of stuff we worry about is with our fish!

Honestly, I wouldn't design a study on it, fish are highly adaptable; probably much more so than people.

[Larry Bugg]

No problem John, I'll make it easy for you. Bacteria, like all organisms are constantly mutating. With, or without the "abuse" of AB, bacteria will mutate. There will be a time when what we have on hand will no longer work, due to mutations, not what you feel is abuse. Would you still feel the use of AB is abuse if your grandchild was dying and the doctors didn't know how to treat her, but a last ditch effort of AB? Tell me you wouldn't want to save it's life by trying.

WOW, just WOW. How far off base can you get. John NEVER said they shouldn't be used. He said they shouldn't be abused. And a flippant attitude towards the use of them helps lead to that abuse.

[shawnhu]

WOW, just WOW. How far off base can you get. John NEVER said they shouldn't be used. He said they shouldn't be abused. And a flippant attitude towards the use of them helps lead to that abuse.

But isn't it abuse? I get this feeling that it's ok to preach not using AB for others, but when it comes to their fish or their family, now it's a different story.

Anything short of being 100% sure if it's gram neg or gram pos bacteria is abuse, and IMO, more than 90% of fish keepers will not waste critical moments to find out.

[John_Nicholson]

But isn't it abuse? I get this feeling that it's ok to preach not using AB for others, but when it comes to their fish or their family, now it's a different story.

Anything short of being 100% sure if it's gram neg or gram pos bacteria is abuse, and IMO, more than 90% of fish keepers will not waste critical moments to find out.

Just keep twisting the words anyway you want ...your still wrong. I am all for the proper use of AB and that was plain to see. Oh an sorry it took me so long to respond but I had to change water and when I do a 50% WC it means more than 5 gallons.....

-john

[yogi]

Key facts
Infections caused by resistant microorganisms often fail to respond to conventional treatment, resulting in prolonged illness and greater risk of death.
About 440 000 new cases of multidrug-resistant tuberculosis (MDR-TB) emerge annually, causing at least 150 000 deaths.
Resistance to earlier generation antimalarial medicines such as chloroquine and sulfadoxine-pyrimethamine is widespread in most malaria-endemic countries.
A high percentage of hospital-acquired infections are caused by highly resistant bacteria such as methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA).
Inappropriate and irrational use of antimicrobial medicines provides favourable conditions for resistant microorganisms to emerge, spread and persist.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is antimicrobial resistance?

Antimicrobial resistance (AMR) is resistance of a microorganism to an antimicrobial medicine to which it was previously sensitive. Resistant organisms (they include bacteria, viruses and some parasites) are able to withstand attack by antimicrobial medicines, such as antibiotics, antivirals, and antimalarials, so that standard treatments become ineffective and infections persist and may spread to others. AMR is a consequence of the use, particularly the misuse, of antimicrobial medicines and develops when a microorganism mutates or acquires a resistance gene.

[shawnhu]

Key facts
Infections caused by resistant microorganisms often fail to respond to conventional treatment, resulting in prolonged illness and greater risk of death.
About 440 000 new cases of multidrug-resistant tuberculosis (MDR-TB) emerge annually, causing at least 150 000 deaths.
Resistance to earlier generation antimalarial medicines such as chloroquine and sulfadoxine-pyrimethamine is widespread in most malaria-endemic countries.
A high percentage of hospital-acquired infections are caused by highly resistant bacteria such as methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA).
Inappropriate and irrational use of antimicrobial medicines provides favourable conditions for resistant microorganisms to emerge, spread and persist.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is antimicrobial resistance?

Antimicrobial resistance (AMR) is resistance of a microorganism to an antimicrobial medicine to which it was previously sensitive. Resistant organisms (they include bacteria, viruses and some parasites) are able to withstand attack by antimicrobial medicines, such as antibiotics, antivirals, and antimalarials, so that standard treatments become ineffective and infections persist and may spread to others. AMR is a consequence of the use, particularly the misuse, of antimicrobial medicines and develops when a microorganism mutates or acquires a resistance gene.

Yogi, thanks for the read.

[PAR23]

The miss use of AB is one of the biggest problems that we face in disease control. Not for fish but for people.
-john

Can't tell you how many people call up and want a prescription for "Z-pack" for a running nose. If you don't give them what they want, they'll doctor shop until they get the Abx. We are now seeing healthy young people coming in with MRSA infections which was unheard of 10 years ago. The bacteria will survive, we may not.

[SMB2]

They'll just come out with a new AB to fight the now immune strain of bacteria. If it's worthwhile and has a market, it'll be created.

I don't think that is all together the case. Take malaria, as mentioned above. There is very little R&D going on for new anti-malarial drugs at the moment because the cases are in third world countries and the numbers relatively low. So there is no profit for big Pharma to work on the next generation of drugs. The same can be said to some degree for TB. Research stopped when cases went down and now we are stuck with a lethal bacillus that no company is geared up for or interested in finding the next drug.
As Peter noted, it is a scary thing to have a patient come in to the office and have a MRSA infection without ever having been near a hospital. MRSA has been around for at least a decade but there as yet is no wonder antibiotic to manage it.
So what company is going to give a crap about a drug resistant parasite in your fish tank?

On a brighter note several medical academies and consumer groups are about to come out with best practice recommendations, in an effort to reduce med. care costs. Several include withholding antibiotics when treating routine illnesses, like Pink Eye, Sinusitis, and viral sore throats. Hopefully the consumers/patients will take note. Sorry for the side rant.

[PAR23]

On a brighter note several medical academies and consumer groups are about to come out with best practice recommendations, in an effort to reduce med. care costs. Several include withholding antibiotics when treating routine illnesses, like Pink Eye, Sinusitis, and viral sore throats. Hopefully the consumers/patients will take note.

This is already in practice at many institutions including where I work which a relatively big academic center. The concept of deesclation of Abx usage is one idea born out of this practice. Another is restriction of Abx use to certain specialities like ID docs. I just hope and pray that the industries continue to develop medications to combat these bugs.

[SMB2]

Peter, at the risk of side tracking this thread, it is fine for the Academic institutions to control the use of Abx, but as you noted earlier it is the patients expectations that have to be changed. That is why the upcoming recs. may be helpful. People have to stop wanting a quick fix for illnesses that will get better on their own.
Now, that does apply to Discus keepers as well, I suspect!

[roclement]

Peter, at the risk of side tracking this thread, it is fine for the Academic institutions to control the use of Abx, but as you noted earlier it is the patients expectations that have to be changed. That is why the upcoming recs. may be helpful. People have to stop wanting a quick fix for illnesses that will get better on their own.
Now, that does apply to Discus keepers as well, I suspect!

Yes it does! Just like people, a healhty individual to start with is (may be) less likely to fall victim to some simple contaminations. A healthy individual has a greater chance of fighting off some simple bugs on their own; staying healthy is key!

Fish are the same way, the short way of fixing something is to throw the kitchen sink at them, anything we can think of to kill any bugs that may exist. The best way is to make sure your fish is healthy to start with, and to do everything you can to keep it that way.
Most (not all) of the posts in the disease section are from keepers that fail on the basics first like, poor water quality, or poor quarentine procedures, or even buying sick/bad fish to start with.
It is easy to throw a medication on a symptom and make it go away, but with inapropriate care, the fish will likely get sick again and die.
Fish keepeing is easy, we know what they need to be healhty, and unlike humans, they do what we make (tell) them to do, aquarium fish have no say in their environment, feed, or care, we are responsible for them, and the choices we make from purchase, to care, will define how well our fish will develop.

Rodrigo

[Chicago Discus]

Yes it does! Just like people, a healhty individual to start with is (may be) less likely to fall victim to some simple contaminations. A healthy individual has a greater chance of fighting off some simple bugs on their own; staying healthy is key!

Fish are the same way, the short way of fixing something is to throw the kitchen sink at them, anything we can think of to kill any bugs that may exist. The best way is to make sure your fish is healthy to start with, and to do everything you can to keep it that way.
Most (not all) of the posts in the disease section are from keepers that fail on the basics first like, poor water quality, or poor quarentine procedures, or even buying sick/bad fish to start with.
It is easy to throw a medication on a symptom and make it go away, but with inapropriate care, the fish will likely get sick again and die.
Fish keepeing is easy, we know what they need to be healhty, and unlike humans, they do what we make (tell) them to do, aquarium fish have no say in their environment, feed, or care, we are responsible for them, and the choices we make from purchase, to care, will define how well our fish will develop.

Rodrigo

+1 your dead on Rod

[John_Nicholson]

Yes it does! Just like people, a healhty individual to start with is (may be) less likely to fall victim to some simple contaminations. A healthy individual has a greater chance of fighting off some simple bugs on their own; staying healthy is key!

Fish are the same way, the short way of fixing something is to throw the kitchen sink at them, anything we can think of to kill any bugs that may exist. The best way is to make sure your fish is healthy to start with, and to do everything you can to keep it that way.
Most (not all) of the posts in the disease section are from keepers that fail on the basics first like, poor water quality, or poor quarentine procedures, or even buying sick/bad fish to start with.
It is easy to throw a medication on a symptom and make it go away, but with inapropriate care, the fish will likely get sick again and die.
Fish keepeing is easy, we know what they need to be healhty, and unlike humans, they do what we make (tell) them to do, aquarium fish have no say in their environment, feed, or care, we are responsible for them, and the choices we make from purchase, to care, will define how well our fish will develop.

Rodrigo

Rod is brilliant.

-john

[seanyuki]

Great post Rod


Yes it does! Just like people, a healhty individual to start with is (may be) less likely to fall victim to some simple contaminations. A healthy individual has a greater chance of fighting off some simple bugs on their own; staying healthy is key!

Fish are the same way, the short way of fixing something is to throw the kitchen sink at them, anything we can think of to kill any bugs that may exist. The best way is to make sure your fish is healthy to start with, and to do everything you can to keep it that way.
Most (not all) of the posts in the disease section are from keepers that fail on the basics first like, poor water quality, or poor quarentine procedures, or even buying sick/bad fish to start with.
It is easy to throw a medication on a symptom and make it go away, but with inapropriate care, the fish will likely get sick again and die.
Fish keepeing is easy, we know what they need to be healhty, and unlike humans, they do what we make (tell) them to do, aquarium fish have no say in their environment, feed, or care, we are responsible for them, and the choices we make from purchase, to care, will define how well our fish will develop.

Rodrigo

[SMB2]

Fish keepeing is easy, we know what they need to be healhty, and unlike humans, they do what we make (tell) them to do, aquarium fish have no say in their environment, feed, or care, we are responsible for them, and the choices we make from purchase, to care, will define how well our fish will develop.

And that Rodrigo, is that....
But now do I have to change my signature?

[roclement]

Stan, I love your sig! Maybe add to it...

Simply Disucs KEEPER is an oximoron! :)

Rodrigo

[SMB2]

How about just "Discus Keepers are simply morons"!

[roclement]

How about just "Discus Keepers are simply morons"!

LOL...post of the year!

Rodrigo

[troysdiiscus]

and the Nobel Peace Prize Award goes to..................................Rod!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!! great read, well said.....

[PAR23]

it is the patients expectations that have to be changed.

In the ideal world this is true Stan but people are fixed in their ways and attempting to change the mind set is very difficult and challenging. One good example is the seasonal Flu vaccine.........It is a killed virus and receiving the vaccine CANNOT give one the flu. Despite this well established medical fact, people will relate their flu vaccine to getting sick.

My advise, don't get old. No matter how advance medical technology becomes, it cannot beat age.

[SMB2]

My advise, don't get old.

Ooops,
To late.

[sammy]

Thanks for all the thought you guys put into this topic. I like discussions like this because quite honestly I learn alot from so many great opinions.

[SMB2]

Just a little more to add...

An antibiotic-resistant family of bacteria continues to spread throughout the U.S. health care system and is now prompting warnings from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The bacteria, Carbapenem-Resistant Enterobacteriaceae (CRE), kill up to half of the patients who get the bloodstream infections from the disease. The disease has evolved a resistance to carbapenems, also called last-resort antibiotics.

In addition, the CRE bacteria can reportedly transfer its resistance to other bacteria within its family. The transfer of resistance can create additional life-threatening infections for patients in hospitals, longer-term health care facilities, and possibly otherwise healthy people,

[John_Nicholson]

Yea I saw that yesterday either on Fox news or CNN. I started to post the link but did not figure that the person that needed to read it would take the time.....LOL

-john

[SMB2]

:D

[Discus Origins]

In the ideal world this is true Stan but people are fixed in their ways and attempting to change the mind set is very difficult and challenging. One good example is the seasonal Flu vaccine.........It is a killed virus and receiving the vaccine CANNOT give one the flu. Despite this well established medical fact, people will relate their flu vaccine to getting sick.


Be careful with making a blanket statement here ;) we see many patients at our office who got the flu after receiving the flu shot/nasal spray. It's brilliant marketing for big pharma to sell flu shots that they 'guessed' would be for the 4 common strains of the season when the failure rate is 94% as reported by the CDC.

The nasal spray contains weakened live virus, and can absolutely give someone the flu with a weak immune system to begin with. Clinical trials were only performed on healthy patients and of course produces skewed data. Just like all the drugs that are approved by the FDA that ends up killing tens of thousands of people. Closer look at clinical data always finds favorable data reported and negative data ignored or minimized. But dont get me started on that lol. Thats why it is only recommended for 'healthy' individuals age 2-49, but do you think the Walgreens/CVS flu shot dispenser takes a detailed history before shooting it up someone's nose?

Flu shots cause an inflammatory reaction in the body in order for antibodies to be produced. During this time the person has a weakened immune system. This is when they can contract the flu of another strain that they are exposed to. So to clarify the patient does not get the flu from the exact strains found in the shot but can contract another variety (90 strains of influenza documented so far) from weakened state after receiving the shot. So can a person get the flu after receiving the flu shot...yes. The problem is most patients don't report their reactions to the VAERS so there is not an accurate database on file vs real world experiences.

But you are absolutely right, don't get old! Lol

[John_Nicholson]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/06/health/super-bug-bacteria-spreading/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

-john

[PAR23]

Be careful with making a blanket statement here ;) we see many patients at our office who got the flu after receiving the flu shot/nasal spray. It's brilliant marketing for big pharma to sell flu shots that they 'guessed' would be for the 4 common strains of the season when the failure rate is 94% as reported by the CDC.

The nasal spray contains weakened live virus, and can absolutely give someone the flu with a weak immune system to begin with. Clinical trials were only performed on healthy patients and of course produces skewed data. Just like all the drugs that are approved by the FDA that ends up killing tens of thousands of people. Closer look at clinical data always finds favorable data reported and negative data ignored or minimized. But dont get me started on that lol. Thats why it is only recommended for 'healthy' individuals age 2-49, but do you think the Walgreens/CVS flu shot dispenser takes a detailed history before shooting it up someone's nose?

Flu shots cause an inflammatory reaction in the body in order for antibodies to be produced. During this time the person has a weakened immune system. This is when they can contract the flu of another strain that they are exposed to. So to clarify the patient does not get the flu from the exact strains found in the shot but can contract another variety (90 strains of influenza documented so far) from weakened state after receiving the shot. So can a person get the flu after receiving the flu shot...yes. The problem is most patients don't report their reactions to the VAERS so there is not an accurate database on file vs real world experiences.

But you are absolutely right, don't get old! Lol

Since I only see adult patients, I cannot make intelligent comments on nasal flu vaccines. They are for the most part given to children and not adults. Patients with weaken immune systems should NEVER be exposed to attenuated vaccines in the first place. This would be considered deviation from standard of care.

So back to my point. Getting the KILLED virus vaccine shot will NOT in itself cause someone to get the flu.....I can make this statement with 100% medical certainty and there is no debate on this. Also lets be clear.......a reaction to a shot is different than getting the flu from the shot. They are two totally different issues. Now if you just happen to get infected with another strain of the flu shortly following the vaccine, then luck is not on your side but it can happen. You are right in that the vaccines are produced based on a calculated guess of which will be the predominant strain for that year. Also remember, the flu does not kill, just makes you feel miserable but it's the superimposed bacterial infection that does. This is why the very young and very old are the ones who should get the vaccine since they are at the highest risk for death.

In reference to your statment on weaken immune system during inflammatory reaction....I like to see your data on this. The inflammatory cascade is how we fight off infections, it does not result in weaken immunity. It has the opposite effect, it gets the entire body ready to defend itself. The increased cytokines and immune modulators increase ones immune state and not weakens it.

[PAR23]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/06/health/super-bug-bacteria-spreading/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

-john

Just add this to the list of other highly resistant bugs we are facing today. CRE/VRE/MRSA/ESBL-Klebs/MDR-TB/PCN resistant pneumococcus and so on.......

[tonytheboss1]

A) its possible. There are already problems with people using antibiotics and them not working because there are drug resistant bacteria in the meat people eat from over use of meds in livestock since they live in such filthy conditions.
B) only buy from sorces that you know and trust. Big chains/box stores are going to have fish grown in the worst conditions so they will most likely be exposed to the most meds. Talk to the breeders and ask them if they use meds only when needed or if they use them all the time. Supply and demand. If people dont buy those heavily medicated fish they will stop selling them. Look at how many companies now are turning away from high fructose corn syrups because people got smart to all the health problems it is causing.

:bandana: Agree!! Limiting the sources will go a long way to preventing a major immunity problem "T"

[yogi]

Besides the CRE Bacteria we need to watch out for a new virus http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/08/deadly-new-virus-warning-novel-coronavirus_n_2838240.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk1%26pLid%3D281672

[SMB2]

This is becoming a hot topic in the MSM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/mar/11/superbugs-antibiotics-bacterial-diseases-infections

[John_Nicholson]

And another article.

-john

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/04/18/antibiotic-development-for-nightmare-bacteria-alarmingly-slow/?intcmp=HPBucket

[Discus Ranz]

I dont keep Discus................................ They keep me!!!

I know this is an old thread, but it was an excellent read.
I tread lightly on subjects like this, just based on the fact that there are Doctors, Bio-chemist, NASA grads and everything else here that make me feel puny in the universe.

But the one thing I always had success with on AB's.........once its determined thats whats needed, is I would use two or three different ones during treament. One or two days on one, then hit them with another, then back again. IMO it reduced the chance of building immunity.

It worked. Now having said this, I've only had to use drugs two or three times in about 12 broken up years of Discus keeping. And they were swim bladder infections. Along with the AB treatment I excercised the swim bladder as well and had full recoveries.

But as already stated............. healthy water conditions and diet are key.

Anyway.......gonna slither back under my rock now. Just wanted to say thanks for the comments on this one. Was an awesome read.

~Ranz~