medication and the nitrogen cycle

[mirador]

Hello Again

Though it is written and may be true that 99% of all fish bacterial pathogens are gram negative, the "marketplace" still markets "broad spectrum antibiotics a tremendous amount..so that it hits both gram negative and gram positive bacteria.
When you medicate a tank, just as likely ,you make the problem worse by destroying the bacteria in the filter system. I presume it is known that the bacteria in the filter system are gram positive ( actually I don't know that..are filter bacteria gram negative or gram positive?..or both)..If they are mostly gram positive, we ought to stick with gram negative antibiotics like kanamycin and keep our filter bacterial populations up as well as we can.

An antibiotic that is working plus an ammonia spike from the filter aren't much use. At a higher level of understanding,what do people do re medication? ....besides avoiding it. Recently I shut down a whole tank this way. I had thought that i could keep ahead of the ammonia spike with water changes but I couldn't, and the fish were really sensitive.

Thanks

[GrayLadyPat]

I am not familiar with the terms "gram negative" and "gram positive"

Could you please elaborate for us newbies?

Thanks in advance

[mirador]

HI
all bacteria,when dye tested in a laboratory either turn pink or turn blue ( as I remember) depending on their genetic make up. It serves as an identifiication marker for treatment in humans etc. One is called gram positive and the other is gram negative ( I forget which one... whether it is the pink or the blue). IN any case aeromonas, colunmnaris and some other "biggies" are gram negative. If you treat with a gram positive attacking antibacterial..it won't work. So the formulations often contain both gram positive and gram negative attacking antibacterials..but they cover so much ground that they also destroy the bacteria in filters. IN any case,look it up it is all over the place on the internet..but I still don't really know if filter bacteria is gram neg or gram pos..or both.

[Elliots]

I recently medicated my fish and killed the bacteria. After you do that you have an uncycled tank. I used API Quick Start to jump start the BB after a massive water change to eliminate the antibiotics. I also put carbon in my filters. I do not know if the carbon actually did anything. I did not add enough Quick Start for my surviving bioload. I should have added 2-5 times the recommended dose plus redosing as often as daily if necessary. I monitored the water conditions daily (You might want to check your water twice daily.) and I had an ammonia spike that I treated with Prime. Seachem says you can add up to 5 times the normal dose so I did. I did as large water changes as I could. It took almost two weeks to get back to cycled. If I had to do it again I would add massive amounts of Quick Start. I did not have another tank to transfer my fish into while the tank was cycling and I did not have cycled filter medium to put in the tank. but if I had another tank I would have moved most of my fish.

[PAR23]

What medication did you use Elliots? Interesting enough, I've set my filter back with Kana but never at issues when I used Furans 2 or PP.

[Elliots]

I used amoxicillin. I am a Dentist and I had it handy for patients of mine without a prescription plan. I think it is the medication of choice for non-periodontal dental infections. The antibiotic of choice can change! For patients with a prescription plan I prefer Zithromax because you only take it once a day and there a very few side effects and more patient compliance. I think a Zithromax prescription is over $100. I do not know what effects other antibiotics have on BB but I would assume that they will wipe out the BB. If the antibiotic does not kill the BB, all the better! Plan for the worst and hope for the best! I would want to cure my fish first and worry about the after effects later. If your fish are dead the BB do not matter much!
I have never used PP but I think from reading on SD it does not destroy the BB. If I did use PP I would check my water daily to be sure.
I see you are a NYC resident. I live in SoHo. I change with tap water plus Prime. I had a lot of stuff has happened because my tap water pH went from 6.4 to 7.6. At first I checked my tap water pH about 6-8 times in two months and it was constant so In stopped checking! I figured NYC tap water is constant! I live in an over 100 year old building by the way. Who knows what my pipes are made of? Now I check with every change and if there is a great difference I change only 20% and refill the tank slowly. I have just got rid of my towel and linen cabinet so I can age 45-50 gal. of water.
I quit the 100-125 gal changes that people on SD like. My tank is 150gal.
Where do you live in NYC?

[SMB2]

'The Gram staining method, named after the Danish bacteriologist who originally devised it in 1882 (published 1884), Hans Christian Gram, is one of the most important staining techniques in microbiology. It is almost always the first test performed for the identification of bacteria. The primary stain of the Gram's method is crystal violet. Crystal violet is sometimes substituted with methylene blue, which is equally effective. The microorganisms that retain the crystal violet-iodine complex appear purple brown under microscopic examination. These microorganisms that are stained by the Gram's method are commonly classified as Gram-positive or Gram non-negative. Others that are not stained by crystal violet are referred to as Gram negative, and appear red. Besides Gram's stain, there are a wide range of other staining methods available. By using appropriate dyes, different parts of the bacteria structures such as capsules, flagella, granules, and spores can be stained. Staining techniques are widely used to visualize those components that are otherwise too difficult to see under a light microscope. In addition, special stains can be used to visualize other microorganisms not readily visualized by the Gram stain, such as mycobacteria, rickettsia, spirochetes, and others. In addition, there are modifications of the Gram stain that allow morphologic analysis of eukaryotic cells in clinical specimens.'

From American Aquarium:
What are nitrifying bacteria?

There's a lot of confusion among aquarists about nitrifying bacteria. This is due in large part to the recent emergence of a wide variety of bacterial products claiming to be nitrifying aids. Most of these products (all dry products in particular) actually contain species of Heterotrophic bacteria from the genera Bacillus, Pseudomonas, Escherichia, and others (as these bacteria are much easier packaged with a reasonable shelf life under normal conditions/room temperatures). Although a few better "sealed" (for shelf life) cycling products such as SeaChem Stability contain facultative bacteria which can live in both oxygen and non-oxygen environments (a further explanation is provided later).

True nitrifying bacteria are Autotrophic and considered to be those belonging to the family Nitrobacteraceae whose energy sources are derived from the chemical conversion of ammonia to nitrite, or, nitrite to nitrate (Autotrophic bacteria are organisms that produce complex organic compounds from simple inorganic molecules). They require oxygen, utilize mostly inorganic (without carbon) compounds as their energy source, and require carbon dioxide (CO2) for their source of carbon. In the case of the Nitrobacteraceae these energy sources are derived from the chemical conversion of ammonia to nitrite, or, nitrite to nitrate.

The desired Autotrophic aerobic bacteria of nitrifying bacteria are present everywhere (e.g., in the air), oxygen and at least some moisture is present (not in areas void of oxygen) [reference: 3].
It is important to note that although the desired nitrifying species of bacteria are “all around us”, they do not readily store in sealed oxygen free containers (dying rapidly or going dormant without oxygen to the point of long periods to revive); it takes some time for the sparse air born nitrifying bacteria to populate an aquarium or pond, so do not expect these bacteria to “magically” populate your aquarium overnight, even a re-started aquarium will need to be re-populated (please see cycling methods further down in the article).

While these nitrifying bacteria have been shown to be gram negative (correction over previous notation); my research and that of my mentor (Dr. John Herzog) have shown these bacteria to react to gram positive treatments such as Erythromycin and not as much to gram negative antibiotics (such as Kanamycin).
The reason for this obvious contradiction of facts is unknown; however one explanation given to me is: "biofilms (via excretion of exopolymeric substances) are able to inhibit the efficacy of antibiotics. One of the variables the research has discovered is that the age of the biofilms has a direct bearing on their ability to inhibit antibiotic penetration. In addition, any given biofilm may inhibit one type of antibiotic while they will not have a similar effect an a different antibiotic". [reference: 7]

For this reason, aquarium keepers need to be careful when treating with medications that are primarily gram positive such as Erythromycin (Maracyn), Ampicillin, or Penicillin. I have also found Tetracycline Hydrochloride to be harsh on nitrifying bacteria as well.
I will also note that most antibiotics can be harsh on a newly established bio filter, so please consider this fact with a tank under 8 weeks of age (unless seeded with established filters from another aquarium).

Another point of disagreement about these bacteria, based on my assertion, that they are gram positive; since most aquarium diseases are gram negative (especially marine), diseases such as Vibrio, Columnaris, Pseudomonas, Aeromonas and their resulting treatment with antibiotics such as Kanamycin or Nitrofurazone (which are primarily gram negative) will NOT interfere with the nitrifying cycling process when used correctly.

Another commonly used product for aquarium Ich infestation is Malachite Green, despite some common anecdotal comments Malachite Green, as well as Copper Sulfate DO NOT affect nitrifying bacteria (please see references below)

Five genera are generally accepted as ammonia-oxidizers and four genera as nitrite-oxidizers. Of these, Nitrosomonas (FW), Nitrosococcus (SW), and Nitrospira (ammonia-oxidizers); Nitrococcus (SW), Nitrobacter (FW), and Nitrospina (nitrite-oxidizers) are the most important. Species of marine nitrifying bacteria are different from those that prefer fresh water, and yet, are very closely related.

Heterotrophic Bacteria are an organism that requires organic substrates to get its carbon for growth and development. Some are strictly aerobic, but many are facultative anaerobes (they can survive in either the presence or absence of oxygen). Heterotrophic Bacteria are generally found in most over the counter aquarium cycling products (especially "Sludge Removers") due to their portability.
Heterotrophs can be either gram-positive (ex: Bacillus) or gram-negative (ex: Pseudomonas) which in the case of Pseudomonas many gram negative aquarium treatments (such as Kanamycin) can be effective against Pseudomonas while not harming true Autotrophic nitrifying bacteria.

Another point is growth (which is why Heterotrophic bacteria are favored for cycling products); nitrifying (Autotrophic) bacteria will double in population every 15-24 hours under optimal growth conditions. Heterotrophic bacteria, on the other hand, can reproduce in as little as 15 minutes to 1 hour.
Unfortunately research has shown that up to one million times more of these heterotrophic bacteria are required to perform a comparable level of ammonia conversion that is attained by true autotrophic nitrifying bacteria, in part due to the fact of Heterotrophic Bacteria to convert many organics into food.
The use of only Heterotrophic Bacteria to cycle an aquarium (or pond) can result in a bio environment that does not contain the necessary Autotrophic nitrifying bacteria to rapidly adapt to changes in bio load either from added fish, wastes, or similar; thus often resulting in sudden spikes in ammonia or nitrites when these Heterotrophic bacteria cycling products are not added in a timely or regular schedule!

[Elliots]

Thanks Stan, I had the general idea but it was 35 years ago when I took Microbiology.

[SMB2]

I think Gram was one of my professors.:D

[Elliots]

What I do not really understand is after you stain things don't you usually clean them or throw them away?

[PAR23]

I used amoxicillin. I am a Dentist and I had it handy for patients of mine without a prescription plan. I think it is the medication of choice for non-periodontal dental infections. The antibiotic of choice can change! For patients with a prescription plan I prefer Zithromax because you only take it once a day and there a very few side effects and more patient compliance. I think a Zithromax prescription is over $100. I do not know what effects other antibiotics have on BB but I would assume that they will wipe out the BB. If the antibiotic does not kill the BB, all the better! Plan for the worst and hope for the best! I would want to cure my fish first and worry about the after effects later. If your fish are dead the BB do not matter much!
I have never used PP but I think from reading on SD it does not destroy the BB. If I did use PP I would check my water daily to be sure.
I see you are a NYC resident. I live in SoHo. I change with tap water plus Prime. I had a lot of stuff has happened because my tap water pH went from 6.4 to 7.6. At first I checked my tap water pH about 6-8 times in two months and it was constant so In stopped checking! I figured NYC tap water is constant! I live in an over 100 year old building by the way. Who knows what my pipes are made of? Now I check with every change and if there is a great difference I change only 20% and refill the tank slowly. I have just got rid of my towel and linen cabinet so I can age 45-50 gal. of water.
I quit the 100-125 gal changes that people on SD like. My tank is 150gal.
Where do you live in NYC?

I live on Long Island. My tap has a pH of 7.5 which after aging increases to 8.0 I too don't check my pH too often. It's been stable for years now.