Something I do here and why.... QT Procedure

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
This is not an experiment , but its a procedure I have taken to using here the last few years when I get in new fish. I guess you could call it step one of my Quarantine Procedure. I thought I would describe it here, explain my rational for doing this and open it up for discussion. I am not advocating this as something you should do, or need to do, and I have no proof that it actually makes a difference....but it seems like it should in theory.

So heres the scenario. You are expecting some new fish in and have done all those things that have been recommended..Separate area from your existing tanks (check), quarantine tank with stable water of the appropriate temperature (check), separate equipment (check), prepared to be patient for weeks of observation (check), Biologically cycled Filter (check)..

okay.in my case..... scratch that Biologically cycled filter... you might ask why knowing that having one will keep the ammonia and Nitrites safely converted to less toxic nitrates. Its common for people setting up a quarantine tank to have a good cycled filter....often plucked right out of one of their healthy established tanks. I used to do this ,...most do.

I started doing things differently a few years ago. I set up my QT tank "sterile"... well not sterile... but I bleach it, rinse it well, wipe it clean, run it with no biological media...just clean water... and my new fish go right into this. I tend to look at things I do from a biological point of view and I got to thinking about the fishes immune system..Its first line of defense is its slime coat and skin...thats where many antibodies are...Problem is when you net fish, ship them, handle them...the slim coat is destroyed or severely damaged... so if you put this fish into a tank with water teaming with bacteria that its never encountered...it has the potential to be stressful at the least, or could lead your new fish to crash badly as many have experienced.

My thoughts/theory was would it not be better to let the fishes slime coat heal first before it encountered an onslaught of bacteria and potential pathogens? So thats what I do... clean tank...no biological filtration...just lots of water changes day and night.... This I do for several days until the fish have really settled in and healed... Its amazing how much faster minor fin damages heal this way as well.

After a few days...I will then add a biological filter from a trusted tank...and I have never had a problem with the fish this way. Now a disclaimer... Everytime someone makes a claim like this 50 people jump in and say "I've always done it the other way and never had a problem." I don't doubt you in this case....and this method isn't meant to be proposed as better than using a QT with a cycled/seeded filter.... But I do think it has merit and may be a very good alternative.

Additionally.. If you do use a cycled or seeded tank filter and the new fish get sick...you really have no way to know if the new fish brought it in or are reacting to the bacterialogical fauna of your existing tank. However, if the fish break down with a bacterial infection or parasite infection in that biologically lacking QT tank...it raises questions on the health of the new fish.

I also like to consider my fish husbandry using similar rules that we might apply to other animals, for instance... is it best to let a scrape or cut be exposed to pathogens or heal first before that happens. Obviously, we want the wound to heal a bit...which is why we make bandaids!!:)

So thats its....not a huge radical change from what most may do, but its something I do here.. and I can't prove it makes a difference one bit.. but from a "gee that makes sense "kind of way it seems a no brainer.

hth,
al

ps... YOU DO NEED TO CHANGE LOTS OF WATER TO REMOVE WASTES AND AMMONIA THIS WAY OR YOU WILL KILL YOUR FISH!!!!

[brewmaster15]

Oh and another thing... If you do it this way and do need to treat.. You don't have to worry about killing or impairing your biological filter.

-al

[chaoslite]

Interesting perspective. I tend to not add any seeded sponges either, but I do add pure pond balls. Do you think those might have an effect on on a fishes immune system?

Mishka

[Skip]

Al..
TcT has one tank is fishless cycle at all time.. well my last visit..

He had like 4-6 hydrosponges.. in there and he added flake food everyday to decay..

Its seemed like a sound procedure

[brewmaster15]

Hi Mishka,
I'm Honestly not familar with that Pure Pond balls. I would assume that if they are seeded by something like ammonia commercially, they are probably fine. If they are seeded by existing tanks or ponds...then they are probably similar to any other filter.

-al

[brewmaster15]

Skip,
I've done that as well...I use clear ammonia to keep those going....and they are a very good way to keep a biological filter going thats free of pathogens... They really are great to have on hand..

thanks,
al

[chaoslite]

Hmmmm I think next time I get new fish I will try your way.

Mishka

[Kal-El]

I have always setup my QT without an establish filter or sponge and never have any issue with my new fish...

[PAR23]

I have a very similar thought process like yours Al. I feel during the QT period, not only am I trying to protect my current stock but also attempting to keep the new stock from getting sick with new pathogens which exist in my tanks. It is a two way street.

[DonMD]

Al,

Suppose a 30 gallon tank and you're getting 2 new 6-inch fish. Would a 90% w/c once a day be enough to prevent ammonia poisoning? And, how many days do you wait until introducing a cycled filter? Thanks.

[shawnhu]

Al,

I don't ship in fish like you folks do, but this is actually the same thought process in treating with salt and/or PP. Both these treatments strip away their slime coats and along with that their natural defenses. I try to advocate the use of these treatments in a dip or a bath to be followed up by a sterile tank rather than an established tank.

To add to that, what I personally do if my water was of low KH and PH, I choose to not change the water since ammonia is non toxic in low ph situations. Introducing tap or other water sources during this critical time could be a game changer.

P.S. I am NOT advocating you do this, as you may KILL your fish. This is something that I do, and have found it to work.

[PAR23]

Shawn. I thought salt baths help built up the slime coat not eliminate it. Salt dips will strip away their slime coat. I agree PP will strip them of their slime coat.

[Skip]

not sure what Salt Baths and PP have to do with QT procedures of fish when you first receive them..

[PAR23]

not sure what Salt Baths and PP have to do with QT procedures of fish when you first receive them..

Right or wrong, some people use it as part of their QT procedure.

[Skip]

well, this was still STEP ONE from AL.. maybe he will had number 2 soon..

[shawnhu]

Shawn. I thought salt baths help built up the slime coat not eliminate it. Salt dips will strip away their slime coat. I agree PP will strip them of their slime coat.

You're absolutely right, a strong dip strips and a mild bath aids.

[brewmaster15]

Al,

Suppose a 30 gallon tank and you're getting 2 new 6-inch fish. Would a 90% w/c once a day be enough to prevent ammonia poisoning? And, how many days do you wait until introducing a cycled filter? Thanks.

Don,
Alots going to depend on the shape of the fish and what you feed them. The first day I get in fish I don't feed them at all. And if the shipper did their job well.. they will have been fasted as well before shipping. If thats the case, theres little waste day one from feces...just ammonia excreted from normal functions...so day one, a huge water change at the end of the day is fine. Day 2, I feed sparingly...and only a clean food. One feeding is fine...maybe 2 if they aggressively eat the first. I clean all wastes after giving them about 30 mins to eat... rather than a large 90 % wc... I prefer to do 2 large ones... morning and night....usually 75-80 %..sometimes more. Ammonia tests kits would be adviseable and let the results guide your water changes , though I don't use them myself with this procedure anymore.

If the fish traveled well, I may add biofilters in 3-4 days... sometimes I go longer....Technically with these kinds of water changes... you will slowly very slowly have a bio filter develop,but cycling a tank with fish in it is risky and not my goal.

hth,
al

[brewmaster15]

well, this was still STEP ONE from AL.. maybe he will had number 2 soon..


I've posted and shared that many times Skip... I suppose I could update that whole procedure again.. It has changed over the years in response to what I have learned and experienced.

-al

[Skip]

I've posted and shared that many times Skip... I suppose I could update that whole procedure again.. It has changed over the years in response to what I have learned and experienced.

-al

No need al.. was jus trying to get back on ur topic in ur op and away from bath salts and pp

[John_Nicholson]

I am with Skip on this one. I see no need to take a fish that has been stressed and then decide...hey I think it will be a great idea to strip away its natural defenses against illness and stress it some more.....I don't bring in a lot of fish but when I do I use nothing but clean water and good food.

-john

[Kal-El]

I don't bring in a lot of fish but when I do I use nothing but clean water and good food.

-john

That there is the truth and the best thing you can give your new fish... I see no reason to PP or salt bath a new fish, but everyone has their own method that works for them.

[seanyuki]

Great post Al.......when I bring in new fish and all equipments brand new(heater,air stone and sponge filter) and old tank soaked in PP solution.......my good friend once told me....

quote

You don't really need benefitial bacteria in the start.....really smile.gif

You can have the tank running and put in discus and try to feed slowly for the first 2 weeks ...gradually reaching to normal feeding rate or the rate you prefer. By then, the biological filtration will be establishes and working effectively bi itself.

If you were to use a filter media or any equipment from another tank or another culture, you might just accidently innoculate disease from the other fishes to your further discus and that disease may not be harmful to the existing because the fishes there already got the immune but introducing it to the new discus might just make the discus sick if not mortality.

unquote

Ps

of course you need max water changes daily.....plus add some acriflavine to prevent any secondary infection during shipping.

[DonMD]

That's what I wanted to know. Thanks, Al.


Don,
Alots going to depend on the shape of the fish and what you feed them. The first day I get in fish I don't feed them at all. And if the shipper did their job well.. they will have been fasted as well before shipping. If thats the case, theres little waste day one from feces...just ammonia excreted from normal functions...so day one, a huge water change at the end of the day is fine. Day 2, I feed sparingly...and only a clean food. One feeding is fine...maybe 2 if they aggressively eat the first. I clean all wastes after giving them about 30 mins to eat... rather than a large 90 % wc... I prefer to do 2 large ones... morning and night....usually 75-80 %..sometimes more. Ammonia tests kits would be adviseable and let the results guide your water changes , though I don't use them myself with this procedure anymore.

If the fish traveled well, I may add biofilters in 3-4 days... sometimes I go longer....Technically with these kinds of water changes... you will slowly very slowly have a bio filter develop,but cycling a tank with fish in it is risky and not my goal.

hth,
al

[SMB2]

Al, I can only draw on my medical background.
In the late 70s it was the norm to treat severe burn patients with strict sterile isolation procedures. Specially vented rooms, care givers in sterile suits, some even UV treated food if the Pt was eating. With large areas of skin loss from the burn, the pt lacked the antimicrobial effect of the skin, overwhelming secondary infections were the main cause of death. Isolation didn't help. Why? Because as soon as the pt coughed, pooped etc there were plenty of bacteria to cause an infection.
Your fish bring their on colonies of bacteria with them, some good, some bad. If their immune system is down they will contaminate themselves.
Your fish do well, I suspect, for the same reason they recover from trauma in nature. By doing large volumes of water changes you are diluting out the pathogens and the healthy fish takes care of the rest. So unless your seeded filters have some bad *** bacteria, they probably don't expose the fish to any pathogen it doesn't already bring to the tank. Your good fish keeping gets them over the hump of shipping trauma.

When the new fish go into the display tank or you introduce a display fish to the QT tank, the new fish may see pathogens from the old system, but again a healthy fish will either have the immune history or develop immunity to show no side effects. Again, this from a Discus novice, I think the "magic" of big WCs partly has to do with recreating the natural environment where the ratio of water volume to fish dilutes out pathogens.

[brewmaster15]

Al, I can only draw on my medical background.
In the late 70s it was the norm to treat severe burn patients with strict sterile isolation procedures. Specially vented rooms, care givers in sterile suits, some even UV treated food if the Pt was eating. With large areas of skin loss from the burn, the pt lacked the antimicrobial effect of the skin, overwhelming secondary infections were the main cause of death. Isolation didn't help. Why? Because as soon as the pt coughed, pooped etc there were plenty of bacteria to cause an infection.
Your fish bring their on colonies of bacteria with them, some good, some bad. If their immune system is down they will contaminate themselves.
Your fish do well, I suspect, for the same reason they recover from trauma in nature. By doing large volumes of water changes you are diluting out the pathogens and the healthy fish takes care of the rest. So unless your seeded filters have some bad *** bacteria, they probably don't expose the fish to any pathogen it doesn't already bring to the tank. Your good fish keeping gets them over the hump of shipping trauma.

When the new fish go into the display tank or you introduce a display fish to the QT tank, the new fish may see pathogens from the old system, but again a healthy fish will either have the immune history or develop immunity to show no side effects. Again, this from a Discus novice, I think the "magic" of big WCs partly has to do with recreating the natural environment where the ratio of water volume to fish dilutes out pathogens.

Agree with you here Stan on the husbandry and water changes.., and its definetly not a sterile tank once we put the discus in it will quickly get populated by bacterias from the discus... but heres where I think it plays a role on disease prevention side of things.

Theres a situation that is known to happen when 2 discus meet that are from 2 very different settings. Its kind of like when you go on vacation to somewhere like Mexico and you are from CT.. They tell you not to drink the water... why? because you aren't used to the bacteria in it and get sick. The locals have no issue with it as they have developed immunity from exposure. We see this alot in Discus... you have a healthy tank of discus from breeder X, buy discus that healthy from breeder y.. mix X and Y fish and one of several things happens... none get sick, one gets sick ,the other gets sick... rarely both can. They just aren't used to each others bacterial colonies.

I think that by allowing the fishes slime coat to heal before they meet non-familiar bacterias ...its a possible that we minimize the chance that one will crash since that slime coat is the first line of defense. Should it be absent, It may be easier for a potentially pathogenic bacteria to get a foothold.

In theory at least... I am sure that the clean water is also a factor.. but I think we tend to overlook the importance of the fishes slime coat...and with discus..that slime coat is definetly complex .

or it could just be me, running off at the mind again.:D

-al

[SMB2]

I think that by allowing the fishes slime coat to heal before they meet non-familiar bacterias ...its a possible that we minimize the chance that one will crash since that slime coat is the first line of defense. Should it be absent, It may be easier for a potentially pathogenic bacteria to get a foothold.

In theory at least... I am sure that the clean water is also a factor.. but I think we tend to overlook the importance of the fishes slime coat...and with discus..that slime coat is definetly complex .


I like the analogy, but the above is the take home message I think. As an aside, given the above reasonable argument, I wonder why we see so many photos of people holding fish especially out of the transport bag.

[brewmaster15]

...I wonder why we see so many photos of people holding fish especially out of the transport bag.

Stan,
It makes a great picture...and if the fish are not stressed from shipping, and have not lost much of their slime coat in the shipping and handling part, they probably recover pretty fast. That aside, many people also use a prophylactic treatment of antibiotics... which is not something I recommend. I think my method here would accomplish much the same as the antibiotics without adding the risk of creating a resistant bacterial strain...Thats my opinion though, others may feel that benefits outweigh the risks.

hth,
al