Discus. Facts and myths

[DONTKNOWYET]

I was only researching about keeping discus, so not having any myself but I find a lot of controversial material between how discus are kept in aquariums and what they have in nature.

I found an article, sadly not in English but I used google translate. It's in regards to the discus diet. Apparently beef heart and such isn't close to anything they eat in nature or naturally need for proper health according to this anyway. Further down I have put some links to biotopes from different regions too. Even the temperatures measured aren't as high as discus are kept in tanks. Why is that?

Here is the article about the diet:

Proper feeding of fish is one of the most important factors in maintaining the health of it in our tanks. To choose the appropriate type of food species, it is necessary to know about what they feed on in the wild. This information can be obtained quite easily in scientific publications and the work of the researchers involved in the description of the natural environment. Only that scientific knowledge is often one side of the coin, a practice used by breeders and hobbyists is the second. In many cases, the main idea is the rapid increase in the effective propagation of fish. However, this has little to do with their proper condition and health. When selecting the type of food, and in many cases, searches are often the most essential and not always reliable messages. Omitted statements true authority in the field, in the nature of scientific observations. A huge shame, because this leads to a variety of misunderstandings and poor breeding fish. This applies not only to fish caught, but forms of farming.

One of the most famous examples are the fish of the genus Symphysodon, which for years have fed hearts bazowo mix of beef, turkey or chicken breast with a spinach greens and sugar snap peas. This is one side of the "food problem", which you can read by typing in Google "disk, nutrition." The other side, the scientific knowledge of nutrition representatives of this genus in nature, is presented below. And how does this apply to you?

I will not give up in this article discuss the matter feeding discus fish meat of warm-blooded animals, but the present knowledge about their diet in the wild.

In 2006 Heiko Bleher in his paper "Bleher's discus" (p. 510-595) has published detailed information about the diet discus collected during several expeditions to the Amazon basin. Presented the analysis of stomach contents, as well as direct observations in nature over 8500 specimens. Although most of the information given by Bleher is estimated, however, in the case of S. haraldi presented quantitative data (number of samples is not given, p 593). According to Bleher during high water content in S. haraldi intestines were: 12% algae, 44% of the plant material (flowers, fruits, seeds, leaves), 6% detritus, aquatic invertebrates, 16% and 22% of terrestrial and arboreal arthropods. In the dry season, when the water is low in the intestine, said: 25% of algae, detritus 39%, 9% plant material, aquatic invertebrates 22% and 5% of terrestrial and arboreal arthropods.

In 2008, he appeared in the development of Crampton "Ecology and life history of an Amazon floodplain cichlid: the discus fish Symphysodon (Perciformes: Cichlidae), a summary of many years of research in the natural environment in the area Tefé in Brazil. The study was conducted on the phenotypes blue and brown discus Symphysodon haraldi sense Bleher, 2006.

Crampton said that Symphysodon haraldi mainly feeds on algae mixture peryfitycznych, detritus and green parts of plants (FOD). The three groups were combined food in combination in a single category because of the practical difficulty in separating them. However, the green plant material in the form of fragments of leaves was not more than 15% of the total volume. The rest of the material, it was difficult to distinguish the partially digested periphyton and organic detritus.

The rainy season - 89% of the fish have stomachs entirely filled with food, or not less than 50%. The intestines were:

Periphyton and FOD (detritus and decomposing fragments of green plants) - 77%

Dekapoda (ten-) - 5%

Chironimidae larvae (Chironomidae) - 10%

Bark and wood chips COD, insect larvae and crustaceans - 8%

The dry season - 68% of fish stomachs were filled to 30%, and 32% completely empty, with no reflux. The intestines were:

Periphyton and FOD (detritus and decomposing fragments of green plants) - 55%

Pieces of wood and bark COD - 10%

Dekapoda (ten-) - 4%

Chironimidae larvae (Chironomidae) - 10%

Insect larvae and crustaceans - 21%

The periphyton in the floodplain forests of the Amazon contains many species of filamentous algae growing on the branches and fallen leaves. Periphyton is a substantial part of primary production and is an important source of energy for fish populations in these waters (Araujo Lima et al, 1986; Forsberg et al, 1993).

Organic detritus that is deposited on periphyton and collects the fragments submerged wood or plant itself is an important source of food for many species of Amazonian fish (Araujo-Lima et al, 1986).

At low water, causing the ground dipped slightly smaller increase in periphyton. By the action of waves on the beaches of clayey water clarity is reduced, thereby reducing the availability of light is necessary for the growth of algae. These factors may explain why in the dry season in the observed population discus stomachs were only partially filled with food, and invertebrates accounted for the bulk of their diet. During the period of high water discus usually swim in open, well-lit waters of the flooded forest, where periphyton grows most abundantly. During this period, invertebrates were surprisingly low percentage of diet discus, although they are an important source of protein.

The digestive tract of the genus Symphysodon poorly characterized wyróżnicowany elongated stomach and intestine, with a length of 300 mm and a width of 3 mm (for individuals with a length of 180 mm SL). This type of bowel is typical for representatives of cichlids herbivorous or omnivorous detrytusożernych.

Bleher published data (2006) for S. discus and S. aequifasciatus indicate an increased content of algae, plant matter and detritus during periods of both low and high water. The data here Crampton (2008) for S. haraldi show less variability diet and a much larger percentage of periphyton / detritus in the gut than those presented by Bleher (2006). These differences may reflect variations in the natural diet of different populations and taxa of the genus Symphysodon.

Summarize the knowledge contained in these two studies ask ourselves whether scientific approach, more recently criticized on many forums and speeches aquarium makers should not give us anything to think about? Is the rapid growth of fish, reaching unnatural size is a good site, or rather real harm aquarium fish? Please note that the improper nutrition your body is constantly exposed to stress, and thus there is no immunity. The consequence of inadequate nutrition is susceptible to a variety of pathogens. Is, then, worth the risk?

My disk of trapping are fed by "scientific scheme." Receive differentiated based on artificial foods spirulina, mixes containing spinach, peas, shrimp and krill larvae and wodzienia. Until now, even though I have them almost a year were neither treated nor dewormed.

Literature

Araujo-Lima CARM, B. Forsberg R. V., Martinelli L., 1986, Energy sources for detritivorous fishes in the Amazon, Science, 234: 1256-1258.

Bleher, H., 2006, Bleher's discus, Volume I, Pavia, Italy, Aquapress.

Crampton W.G. R., 2008, Ecology and life history of an Amazon floodplain cichlid: the discus fish Symphysodon (Perciformes: Cichlidae), Neotropical ichthyology, 6 (4): 599 - 612th

BR Forsberg, CARM, Araujo-Lima LA, Martinelli RLV, Bonassi JA, 1993, Autotrophic carbon sources for fish of the Central Amazon, Ecology, 74: 643-652.


And here some links to discus habitats and biotope examples. Temperatures measured in two of these habitats are only 26-27C.

http://www.aquapress-bleher.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=494&Itemid=64&lang=en

http://www.aquapress-bleher.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=259&Itemid=64&lang=en

http://www.aquapress-bleher.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=85&Itemid=53&lang=en

http://www.aquapress-bleher.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=101&Itemid=53&lang=en

[DONTKNOWYET]

To summarize the long thread about the diet if one can't read the bad translation, this is what's written on seriously fish in shorter words:

To Alan. The diet You wrote about is bollocks It’s a strange thing that rarely anybody thinks about what actually feeding the meet of warm-blooded animals does to the (most of) fish. In case od S. sp the results of such a diet means an outstanding growth, coloration.. Everything bigger and better than in the nature. Well.. it does sound strange, doesn’t it? In the Amazon, where they can eat what they want and need they are smaller, yet they are not underfed.

Another thing, in the natural habitat discus is a rather hardy species. It does well avoiding any problems with parasites. Why is that?

The DIET of course! Becouse DISCUS IS MAINLY A HERBIVORE SPECIES!

How so?! What are You talking abou! Blasphemy! Burn him into a crisp!

There were many dissections of discus in the wild. For polish speakers I hereby present the link:
http://krytykaakwarystyczna.wordpress.com/zywienie-ryb-moze-wreszcie-niektorzy-zrozumieja-ze-czyli-czym-odzywiaja-sie-przedstawiciele-rodzaju-symphysodon-w-naturze/

The unprocessed food was analised by Crampton, and the result is, that at the wet season 77% of the food was detrytus and plant matter, 5% were decapods, 10% Chironimidae larvae, 8% were composed of wood matter, bugs and Crustacea. In the dry season, the balance drifts towards bugs and crustacea (only 55% were composed ef the detrytus/plant matter).

Their intestines are not built for devouring the flesh of the warm-blooded animals. It’s typical for plant eaters.

What is the CORRECT FOOD ?

-spirulina
-spinach
-peas
-other vegetables
-shrimps
-glassworm
-bloodworm
-krill

No fish meat was ever found in the stomach of a wild discus.

So it’s NOT RECOMMENDED to give them:
-fish

And it WRONG to give them:
-hearts of warm-blooded animals
-or any parts of warm blooded animals.

It makes them sick, destoys their organs, especially livers. The wrong diet is the cause of the discus beeing considered as a hard-to-breed fish. It’s easy! Bit you need to mind their normal diet! The one that they were constantly exposed since thousands of years.

[Skip]

so what are you saying??

[Ryan]

It probably comes down to wild discus versus tank-bred discus. All South American cichlids will show differences between F0 (wild-caught) and F1 generations. As they've bred and raised in captivity they become more tolerant of wider parameters. A great example of that would be panda uaru, Uaru fernandezyepezi. The wild-caught fish are notoriously difficult to acclimate at a small size and are often shy and timid, requiring very low lighting and extremely soft, acidic water to prevent the development of hole-in-the-head. Several years ago I managed to obtain a group of tank-bred U. fernandezyepezi that were bold, aggressive, and grew extremely well in my harder water. They were totally different than wild-caught specimens. Things like pH, hardness, temperature, and diet are variable -- as we breed hardier fish, the ability to tweak and play with these parameters becomes possible.

We have covered the beefheart topic here many times before and there will never be an agreement on its use. In the early days of discus keeping it was a cheap, easily-made, high protein food that would grow discus fast. While it's probably true that this animal protein could lead to fatty deposits on the liver and reduce the overall lifespan of the fish, there have been many discus keepers who've had their fish 7 or 8+ years and managed to keep them happy and healthy on this diet. Most people these days feed other sources of protein, such as bloodworms, blackworms, red wrigglers, etc. High protein foods will ensure good growth and help discus reach their maximum potential. You don't have to feed them this way; it's strictly up to you. Most people here just choose to feed them this way because it's been proven to work time and time again. I knew a few hobbyists here years ago who grew beautiful, large discus on nothing but Tetra Bits.

On the subject of vegetable matter in their diets, a lot of discus hobbyists do address this by feeding spirulina flakes or by mixing things like spinach, spirulina, and other greens into beefheart or seafood mixes. I would guess that discus ingest a lot of dead vegetation in the form of detritus from the riverbeds while foraging for food. This doesn't happen as frequently in tanks because most people keep their tank bottoms clean. I've never known a discus to seek out and eat plants which makes me question whether they're "mainly herbivores" by design, or by consequence. To go back to the Uaru, for example -- they are truly herbivorous, usually devouring any kind of plants of greenery you offer them.

Temperatures do fluctuate from location to location in Amazonia, and also with the seasons. Still, I would be hesitant to keep discus long-term in anything below 80F. I usually aim for 82F with adults. I follow this same rule of thumb with other South American cichlids (with the exception of some of the southern-most cichlids, like Gymnogeophagus). Keep them for a while and let the temperature dip into the 70s, and you'll see why. They tend to get sluggish and generally act "off." Cooler water is great in the short-term, though. A water change with cool water will usually induce spawning, for instance.

The bottom line is that most people follow what works. Does that mean you cannot deviate from it? No. For people wanting to get into discus for the first time, the advice given here is a guideline that has been proven to be successful. As hobbyists gain more experience they can and do try different methods, some with success and some without. I often mix discus with other cichlids and angels, something discus purists nearly had a heart attack over when I mentioned it in the late 90s on a discus message board. I also got banned from a chat room once because I told a roomful of European discus hobbyists that fishless cycling was the best way to go, and they said I was purposely trying to encourage people to kill their fish by cycling a tank with pure ammonia. As you get comfortable with the fish and your ability as a discus keeper, you branch out and try new things.

[Chad Hughes]

Well said Ryan! :bandana:

[bornlooser]

Interesting read.....its like keeping Chicken...free range country Hens spend most of their time foraging and eating whatever comes their way,they don't die, but they grow relatively slowly,mature slowly and lay approximately 125 eggs per year...on the other hand commercial laying hens are fed an extremely balanced diet with the optimum amount of Protein, fiber Calcium,Phosphorous Calories etc...are currently they are able to produce around 320 eggs per year !!..

[DiscusLoverJeff]

It is a great read, but as Ryan said, it has always been trial and error with raising healthy discus.

Are we straying from their natural enviornment? For wilds, yes I would say as they are not getting what they would normally get in the own waters. For domestics, I would say people have seen things like beefheart not only grow your discus fast but they reproduce without any ill effects on their fry.

The one good thing about raising discus or any fish for that matter is experimenting to see what works and keeps them healthy. People don't try and do something that would harm their fish, only make their fish happy.

I am sure you could go back to long time experiments with people like Jack Wattley or Schmidt Focke some 30+ years ago and read some of their books. They were some of the early pioneers in discus keeping and they have done wonders using a variety of tests including foods. And, they grew out some of the most beautiful discus around. Still to this day people still try to obtain a Wattley or Focke discus.

[John_Nicholson]

I personally think that at least some of the conclusions that the poster is making are poorly thought out and wrong. They are made because he is trying to make a point. As an example "In the Amazon, where they can eat what they want and need "...BS. Like most wild animals they eat whatever they can to fill their stomachs. It is not like the discus are living in a pet store or having fish keepers coming in daily to feed them. They eat what they can.

4 post and already we have decided that 99% of successful discus keepers are wrong. Hey if you what to do it differently then please do, but quit trying to tell everyone else what to do until you test and prove this BS.

-john

[DONTKNOWYET]

Yes, it sounds like the chicken story. Those "healthy" grown chickens don't live a normal life actually, but they are bigger alright. If you've ever tasted a home grown chicken and eggs, compared to the "balanced, healthy diet ones" you'd taste the difference. I wouldn't try a discus though :D. It just seems to me not so reasonable to boost a fish's size by feeding such foods. It's like growing a fat child feeding sausages and chips but then again I don't have experience with discus. I was just asking because if I never went on forums, I would have done a totally different approach. Although I still don't know what I'll do. I am just enquiring yet :o


I also got banned from a chat room once because I told a roomful of European discus hobbyists that fishless cycling was the best way to go, and they said I was purposely trying to encourage people to kill their fish by cycling a tank with pure ammonia. As you get comfortable with the fish and your ability as a discus keeper, you branch out and try new things.

He, he. My local shop employees, only a few months ago, were looking at me like I was crazy when I mentioned I was cycling a tank with ammonia.

[DONTKNOWYET]

I personally think that at least some of the conclusions that the poster is making are poorly thought out and wrong. They are made because he is trying to make a point. As an example "In the Amazon, where they can eat what they want and need "...BS. Like most wild animals they eat whatever they can to fill their stomachs. It is not like the discus are living in a pet store or having fish keepers coming in daily to feed them. They eat what they can.

4 post and already we have decided that 99% of successful discus keepers are wrong. Hey if you what to do it differently then please do, but quit trying to tell everyone else what to do until you test and prove this BS.


Fair enough, but if you bothered to read it isn't me claiming that. It's a copy/paste. These are the conclusions of Heiko Bleher. Since I can't ask him to elaborate further, I thought I'd ask here.

[John_Nicholson]

Your not really asking...you are trying to push your agenda. If you want to try the diet then do so and then report back how it works for you. I am pretty sure you probably hold heiko in much higher esteem then most people that have been around a long time.

-john

[Skip]

Your not really asking...you are trying to push your agenda. If you want to try the diet then do so and then report back how it works for you. I am pretty sure you probably hold heiko in much higher esteem then most people that have been around a long time.

-john

Hieko has 3 books! ;) with pictures!!!

[John_Nicholson]

Hieko has 3 books! ;) with pictures!!!

LOL...Skip you are killing me here.

-john

[DONTKNOWYET]

Your not really asking...you are trying to push your agenda. If you want to try the diet then do so and then report back how it works for you. I am pretty sure you probably hold heiko in much higher esteem then most people that have been around a long time.

What agenda? Have you personally, as an experienced discus keeper, provided a different diet and compare the results, growth, health, etc..., then came to your conclusions about what's the best diet? Or were you stuck onto the same thing all those years, denying anything else that comes across as total nonsense just because you are afraid to realize you've been wrong all along, or to prove your point you are right?
If you don't have the experience of both methods, then why comment?
I am looking for experienced opinion from someone that has done it both ways.

[DONTKNOWYET]

Hieko has 3 books! ;) with pictures!!!

How many have you written?

[0Dgreen]

Honestly this debate can be made about an fish in the aquaria hobby, or any domesticated animal for that matter. So if we wanted to replicate what wolves eat in nature, we better start letting our dogs feed off of scavenged prey or live animals, It just isn't practial. I don't understand why people are constantly trying to re-invent the wheel, there are successful hobbists here who have been doing the same thing for years. I haven't been keeping discus nearly as long as most people on this site, but the success i have had is due to following procedues that have worked for them for many years. DONTKNOWYET, if you are interested in keeping discus, all of the information you need to be successful is here, Simplydiscus is a great source of information and the experienced hobbists here are more than willing to share their knowldege and support. Read up, look over all of the stickys, be patient and don't rush things.

[DONTKNOWYET]

OK. Thanks for all your comments. I was only comparing to other species of fish that are normally fed what they eat in nature.
Obviously discus fish keeping has developed into a completely different game. I just tried to find information about other, more natural approach but judging by the reaction on this forum, there won't be any documenting it here with the fear of being condemned.
I didn't think it would make so many people angry asking a simple question and giving the raw reason why.

By the way, there are people feeding their dogs diet that they supposedly have evolved to eat in nature. Some of these approaches are called BARF.

[John_Nicholson]

I have literately produced thousands and thousands of discus. I get tired of people who have never contributed to this forum jumping in here and throwing a bunch of chit on the wall to see what sticks. If you want to prove something then please do. The trouble is you will post this and some other new person will read it and not realize that you don't have a clue. It might be the best thing since sliced bread or it may kill their fish. If you are so fired up about it put your money where your mouth is. Spend money on fish, spend money on tanks, spend money grinding up tree bark, spend your money and then come back and tell us how much you like your results. The way I do it has 50 years of results with discus in aquariums...all I am asking of you is provide a little effort into your beliefs. You come in here with a look I am a genius and I have found this article....Anyone can write an article and anyone that can use goggle can find it, but it does not prove a thing.

-john

[Skip]

a varied diet is the best diet..

live foods, frozen, flake, freeze dried..

it is kind of hard to compare WILD DISCUS in the WILD to the Domestic Pigeon Blood discus.. that is NOT from the wild..

[DONTKNOWYET]

I have literately produced thousands and thousands of discus. I get tired of people who have never contributed to this forum jumping in here and throwing a bunch of chit on the wall to see what sticks. If you want to prove something then please do. The trouble is you will post this and some other new person will read it and not realize that you don't have a clue. It might be the best thing since sliced bread or it may kill their fish. If you are so fired up about it put your money where your mouth is. Spend money on fish, spend money on tanks, spend money grinding up tree bark, spend your money and then come back and tell us how much you like your results. The way I do it has 50 years of results with discus in aquariums...all I am asking of you is provide a little effort into your beliefs. You come in here with a look I am a genius and I have found this article....Anyone can write an article and anyone that can use goggle can find it, but it does not prove a thing.

-john

You are right an article does not prove a thing. I am asking if it was proven via experience too. I understand that you have 50 years of experience with the diet you do but I would like to compare yours with someone elses experience that has done it the "natural" way. I guess I won't be lucky enough so I'll put "my money where my mouth" goes I guess.
And you killed my enthusiasm of every contributing to this forum.

[Skip]

I guess I won't be lucky enough so I'll put "my money where my mouth" goes I guess.
And you killed my enthusiasm of every contributing to this forum.

others have posted on this same exact topic.. the threads are somewhere... busy at work.. don't have time to search them..

best of luck.. in what ever way you chose to feed your discus.. when ever you get some :)

[Chad Hughes]

DONTKNOWYET,

Welcome to Simply Discus.

I see you've been doing some reading and that's a great thing. Your initial post has been tossed around forums for years and we all know that what happens in nature and what happens in a fish tank are two different things. The point that John is trying to make is that, through years of experience, discus keepers have found what works and we typically stick to what works. Are there new things being tried? Constantly. Do they work? Not always.

You have a lot of resources at your fingertips these days. You've referenced one source. There are many other sources of information, such as this forum, that will give you tried and true results in successful discus keeping.

Heiko is a well-traveled hobbyist. Read his pages about his travels and what he's done. He's well accomplished but he's no PhD or Doctor. He is often listed as a speaker with those that carry credentials that may validate some of his conclusions but they are just that, conclusions. His books are his livelihood. How else could he afford to travel to the distant corners of the earth and live with the "natives". LOL!

Anyway, keep studying, try what you like and disregard what you don't. Form your own conclusions just like Heiko.

Sorry John was so rough on you. He's a cranky old man that's set in his ways. You'll learn that if you stick around after all of this. (No offense John!) :D

Best wishes!

[DONTKNOWYET]

Thanks. I'll try to research more on the topic.

[Second Hand Pat]

Being a wilds keeper I do not really use a BH mix but then nor do I feed a "natural diet" per sa. I do feed a seafood mix which uses marine based foods vs freshwater based foods. The reason for this is the prevention of freshwater based pathogens. I also feed commerially based foods such as flake, FDBWs, marine based frozen foods and live red wigglers (non-aquatic). I guess there is not reason (IMO) to seek a more natural diet. The fish are healthy and spawning so everyone is happy. :)

[Ryan]

I wouldn't necessarily say that the discus hobby is different in regards to how we feed our fish. I primarily keep wild-caught cichlids and they all get fed pellet food (a combination of New Life Spectrum and Hikari) as their primary diet. These fish are breeding and growing well for me. I don't give them detritus to sift through, nor do I provide things like copepods, shrimp, or small fish that they may find in nature. I think you'll find most cichlid keepers are the same in this regard.

There's nothing wrong with trying to recreate their wild conditions but at some point it becomes impractical. Where do you draw the line? You can set up a biotope tank, alter the water parameters to match the Amazon, feed more natural foods, buy lighting to simulate the seasons and the phases of the moon, etc. etc. but at the end of the day they're still in a glass box, and there's nothing natural about that. So it boils down to (for me): are my fish receiving the water quality and nutrition they require to thrive and breed? If I'm happy with what I'm doing and I'm seeing positive results, I'd say yes. I've been in this hobby since I was 6 and I don't think I'd still be here at 30 if I hadn't had success in keeping and breeding fish.

[John_Nicholson]

Oh and while I am cranky I am only 47...The 50 years of proof is though the work of many great discus pioneers.

Chad no reason to worry about upsetting me. You know it would take a lot more than that. I just long for the good old days....back when we would hear/read of something new we would think about it, give it a try, and then let people know the results. It just seems that now days people think anything that they read on the net has to be correct and that they are somehow entitled to be given all the answers instead of thinking for themselves.

-john

[Chad Hughes]

John,

I get what you're trying to say. Your delivery wasn't the smoothest nor was the OPs delivery. So, two bad deliveries and we're off to the races! :argue:

FYI you're prematurely cranky. LOL! The older we get the more we yearn for the "good old days".




Oh and while I am cranky I am only 47...The 50 years of proof is though the work of many great discus pioneers.

Chad no reason to worry about upsetting me. You know it would take a lot more than that. I just long for the good old days....back when we would hear/read of something new we would think about it, give it a try, and then let people know the results. It just seems that now days people think anything that they read on the net has to be correct and that they are somehow entitled to be given all the answers instead of thinking for themselves.

-john

[fredyx]

Well just to add some scientific studies that support the introduction of animal proteins in Discus fish diet:

-Partial Characterization and activities of proteases from the digestive tract of discus fish (Symphysodon aequifasciata) Chong, Alexander S.C., Hashim, Roshada, Chow-Yang, Lee and Ali, Ahyaudin B. Aquaculture 203 (2002) pp. 321-333

-Inhibition of protease activities in discus Symphysodon spp. By three plant meals Chong,Alexander, Hashim, Roshada and Ali Bin, Ahyaudin Aquaculture International 10 (2002)

-Assessment of dry matter and protein digestibilities of selected raw ingredients by discus fish (Symphysodon aequifasciata) using in vivo and in vitro methods Chong, A.S.C., Hashim, R., Ali, A.B. Aquaculture Nutrition 8 (2002)

These scientifics, namely dr. Chong devoted their time to scientifically prove that animal protein is the best source of proteins for discus fishes. Supporting John PoV, this has been proved by the vast majority of discus breeders around the world during decades -

The main conclusion is that an ingestion of 50% of animal protein produces the optimum growth rate in discus fishes. Their digestive tract is more carnivore-omnivore than herbivore-omnivore.-

[John_Nicholson]

John,

I get what you're trying to say. Your delivery wasn't the smoothest nor was the OPs delivery. So, two bad deliveries and we're off to the races! :argue:

FYI you're prematurely cranky. LOL! The older we get the more we yearn for the "good old days".


Chad my delivery use to be much better and I was a lot less cranky but over time you just get wore out on some of this stuff.

fredyx thanks for your post.

-john

[Chad Hughes]

BOOM!


Well just to add some scientific studies that support the introduction of animal proteins in Discus fish diet:

-Partial Characterization and activities of proteases from the digestive tract of discus fish (Symphysodon aequifasciata) Chong, Alexander S.C., Hashim, Roshada, Chow-Yang, Lee and Ali, Ahyaudin B. Aquaculture 203 (2002) pp. 321-333

-Inhibition of protease activities in discus Symphysodon spp. By three plant meals Chong,Alexander, Hashim, Roshada and Ali Bin, Ahyaudin Aquaculture International 10 (2002)

-Assessment of dry matter and protein digestibilities of selected raw ingredients by discus fish (Symphysodon aequifasciata) using in vivo and in vitro methods Chong, A.S.C., Hashim, R., Ali, A.B. Aquaculture Nutrition 8 (2002)

These scientifics, namely dr. Chong devoted their time to scientifically prove that animal protein is the best source of proteins for discus fishes. Supporting John PoV, this has been proved by the vast majority of discus breeders around the world during decades -

The main conclusion is that an ingestion of 50% of animal protein produces the optimum growth rate in discus fishes. Their digestive tract is more carnivore-omnivore than herbivore-omnivore.-

[Skip]

BOOM!

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Al-bundy-ed-oneill-animated-gif-2.gif

[Allwin]

Decision depends on individual.. Always have question, why discus keeping is challenging..
But, definitely a good read in knowing their digestion habits.. And chicken story is what we ends up with.

[aalbina]

......If you don't have the experience of both methods, then why comment?
I am looking for experienced opinion from someone that has done it both ways.

Umm, there is such a thing as collective experience. One doesn't necessarily have to conduct experiments in order to value the experimentation and subsequent results of many other people's work. If that were not the case - where would we be in science my friend? What is the point of scientific discovery? This topic has been debated here, and else where, at great length over the years. Spend a bit of time reading here and other places and I'm sure you will find the answers for which you are looking. I read John's comments in exactly that spirit: either read up on it and see what the collective experience yields or do the experiments yourself and report back to add to the collective experience. Since you haven't already done that - studied all angles of the argument - it might lead one to wonder if you are looking for answers or just looking for answers that support an already polarized position. The way you present it - whether intentional or not - appears to be the latter.

Adam

[dww-law]

I am a very experienced fish keeper although I just recently started keeping discus. Just a few observations I have made and what has proven successful for me. Other methods also work but this is what I have concluded.

1. Discus are no more difficult to keep than any other fish. In fact, my tropheus are more difficult to keep. The key is to know the fishes needs.
2. The extremes of daily water changes, etc are not needed for discus if you have proper biological and mechanical filtration. An aquarium is a closed system. Therefore the end game of the nitrogen cycle is the build up of nitrates. Water changes in a closed system reduce the nitrates in the water. It also provides a replacement of minerals. I have found weekly water changes of 30 to 40 percent work very well and are much more realistic (especially for a very large tank).
3. Fish are not people. Commercially prepared food is well balanced, vitamin fortified, and generally better overall for the fish than homemade food. I now only feed commercially prepared food as a staple and occasionally some bloodworms. Not to imply other homemade food is not good, just not necessary.
4. Discus are very social creatures. They like interaction and are not skiddish at all. This is why I like to keep them in a large show tank.
5. Do what works for you. Pass it on. People can draw their own conclusions on whether they think its good info or not.

[John_Nicholson]

I believe that once you keep discus longer and get a chance to see some really high quality ones that some of your views might change. Especially on the water changes. There are some good commercial foods but wait until you are feeding 10 or 20 75 gallon tanks and you will see why som many use a homemade formula.

-john

[Chad Hughes]

I concur with your post in mnay regards but I will make a few statements regarding assumptions.

You're right, discus are no harder to keep than any other fish that has particular water requirements. These water requirements are MUCH easier to handle in LARGE tanks or systems. At one point my smallest was 110. I'd never maintain a discus tank smaller than that. Most folks keep about a 55 gallon tank. Water changes become a bit more necessary at that point.

As for food, not all home made foods are created equal. Some are very plain without much more than raw ingredients. Some are fortified. Some may be better than commercial food for the $$.

I'm happy to hear you say "draw your own conclusions". There is no discus manual. There are many guides byt no stupid proof method.

Regards!


I am a very experienced fish keeper although I just recently started keeping discus. Just a few observations I have made and what has proven successful for me. Other methods also work but this is what I have concluded.

1. Discus are no more difficult to keep than any other fish. In fact, my tropheus are more difficult to keep. The key is to know the fishes needs.
2. The extremes of daily water changes, etc are not needed for discus if you have proper biological and mechanical filtration. An aquarium is a closed system. Therefore the end game of the nitrogen cycle is the build up of nitrates. Water changes in a closed system reduce the nitrates in the water. It also provides a replacement of minerals. I have found weekly water changes of 30 to 40 percent work very well and are much more realistic (especially for a very large tank).
3. Fish are not people. Commercially prepared food is well balanced, vitamin fortified, and generally better overall for the fish than homemade food. I now only feed commercially prepared food as a staple and occasionally some bloodworms. Not to imply other homemade food is not good, just not necessary.
4. Discus are very social creatures. They like interaction and are not skiddish at all. This is why I like to keep them in a large show tank.
5. Do what works for you. Pass it on. People can draw their own conclusions on whether they think its good info or not.

[MaiaDee]

but wait until you are feeding 10 or 20 75 gallon tanks and you will see why som many use a homemade formula.

-john

Seriously, John, why always so hostile? And most of us average people out here aren't ever gonna have 10 or 20 tanks and have no desire to breed thousands of fish.

I know I may be out of line here but I am appalled by the rudeness I see displayed here. You long for the "good old days"...does that mean before YOU read the same question a thousand times? Mr Wattley may have felt the same when you were a newby. Did you get the disrespect then that you give now?

You are not obligated to answer every thread and it's not like the original poster called you personally to engage you in a debate, so I really think the attacks on him and a really interesting and informative article are completely off base, unnecessary and aggressively hostile. Sorry it offended you, but others, such as myself appreciate he took the time to post it. Sadly, it appears you have run off someone who seemed genuinely interested in discus and found something radically different in his research. Perhaps not new to YOU, but again, nothing is obligating you to read or respond.

This is far from the first time I've witnessed the hostility and rudeness from a group of long term posters here and I cannot even begin to tell you how off-putting it is.

Rant done.

[dww-law]

John it is safe to say I will never have 20 tanks. My wife would have a heart attack. I only keep very large tanks now. Just my preference since I only keep discus for show. I only breed petrochromis red Bulus now as they are very rare, cost a fortune ($600 per WC adult) and yield a ton of money for 1 f1 fry. I have 22 breeders in a 220 gallon tank. Just pulled 47 fry from one female Saturday:). These are the money makers. My 265 gallon discus tank is for show only. Although a few have paired up and spawned.


I believe that once you keep discus longer and get a chance to see some really high quality ones that some of your views might change. Especially on the water changes. There are some good commercial foods but wait until you are feeding 10 or 20 75 gallon tanks and you will see why som many use a homemade formula.

-john

[John_Nicholson]

Seriously, John, why always so hostile? And most of us average people out here aren't ever gonna have 10 or 20 tanks and have no desire to breed thousands of fish.

I know I may be out of line here but I am appalled by the rudeness I see displayed here. You long for the "good old days"...does that mean before YOU read the same question a thousand times? Mr Wattley may have felt the same when you were a newby. Did you get the disrespect then that you give now?

You are not obligated to answer every thread and it's not like the original poster called you personally to engage you in a debate, so I really think the attacks on him and a really interesting and informative article are completely off base, unnecessary and aggressively hostile. Sorry it offended you, but others, such as myself appreciate he took the time to post it. Sadly, it appears you have run off someone who seemed genuinely interested in discus and found something radically different in his research. Perhaps not new to YOU, but again, nothing is obligating you to read or respond.

This is far from the first time I've witnessed the hostility and rudeness from a group of long term posters here and I cannot even begin to tell you how off-putting it is.

Rant done.

So did you read all of the responses? First the article has no use for domestic fish and comes from a very, very weak source. Also others documented scientific studies that say the very same thing that I did.

On the part you quoted from my response to dww-law there was nothing rude about it. He simply stated that he was fairly new to discus but here were his views. I stated that I thought some of those views might change once he had kept discus longer. What is rude about that?

-john

[lipadj46]

Seeing its other posts its obviously a troll

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

[John_Nicholson]

MaiaDee I have read your response again and wanted to ask you a question. I don't know you but like most people on the planet you are probably an expert in something. Does not matter what that something is for right now, but lets pretend it involves some sort of expensive live animal. You participate on a forum where you have invested 10+ years trying to help people have success with these animals. You have traveled around the country giving up your weekends giving talks, and help with a national club hosting shows. You then take the time to read a post and that post is from someone with no real experience and he is quoting someone of questionable morals at best. Now this "new" theory is one that makes the rounds every so often and it always ends the same. Either the person never really tries it and goes about their business or they do try it and kill or stunt the animal. Since they failed they never post their results. Now to make matters worse other new people are going to read the post and also mess up their animals.......would you give the person a pas sin the name of being PC? or would you stick your neck out in an attempt to keep others from reliving the same mistake that has been done hundreds of times before?

-john

[Rex82]

Must be some epidermis thickness challenged people around to take offense to anything written in this thread.

[Rex82]

Oh, by the way, i feed a beef heart mix, it works, I don't care what anyone else thinks as they are my fish.
If I want to try something different, I will, if someone wants to have a whinge it a whine, I won't care.

[MaiaDee]

John,

In my opinion, you were rude from your very first post with this: "4 post and already we have decided that 99% of successful discus keepers are wrong. Hey if you what to do it differently then please do, but quit trying to tell everyone else what to do until you test and prove this BS."

Personally, I did not see where anyone said anyone was wrong. Perhaps I didn't read as deeply into it as others did, I just saw really interesting information on what wild discus stomach contents were and some links to pics of pretty tanks. I just don't see the potential for so much "harm" as you seem to fear. Yeah, so the author of the article doesn't think discus should eat some of the things we all here feed our fish, but so what? That's cause to attack the person that asked about the information contained in the article?

I understand your wide range of experience and I have seen you help others out with their fish. I've also seen you attack people out of your own misplaced frustration.

To answer your question, no, actually, I don't really consider myself an expert of anything. I am knowledgeable about lots of stuff, but I'm no expert on anything. I did just go back to school though, so if I decide to specialize and do become expert, I'll let you know. I hope, if I obtain expert status, that I will understand that most people will never acquire my level of knowledge nor do they want to. You are an expert because you choose to be. You choose to be here and you choose your attitude.

[John_Nicholson]

I disagree with some of that but you also have some valid concerns.

-john

[Chad Hughes]

I'd use the word "EXPERT" loosly with John. LOL!

He's also a Texan so that's not helping either.

Always consider the source. :D

[MaiaDee]

LOL, Chad. Texas is a completely different rant! :argue:

[John_Nicholson]

Careful buddy you are just one good earthquake from being an island....

-john

[John_Nicholson]

Hey MaiaDee I did send you a PM.

Thanks.

-john

[Skip]

If yall come to NADA Austin

Ur preception of discus will change ur outlook..

[Chad Hughes]

I can't wait! My property value will sky rocket since I'll be waterfront! LOL!


Careful buddy you are just one good earthquake from being an island....

-john

[Chad Hughes]

You spelled y'all wrong. :D

Ur = your. LOL!


If yall come to NADA Austin

Ur preception of discus will change ur outlook..

[Ryan]

Oh jeez, Texas? That's almost as bad as Florida. :p

[Chad Hughes]

Northern Florida. Yes. LOL!

[Len]

Oh jeez, Texas? That's almost as bad as Florida. :p

Careful Ryan, you don't want the wrath of the spam madam to descend upon you lol

[Skip]

You spelled y'all wrong. :D

Ur = your. LOL!

I eat too much beef heart.. sorry. My bad

[Ryan]

Careful Ryan, you don't want the wrath of the spam madam to descend upon you lol

I was born and raised here in a rural Southern Baptist agricultural/farming town with a population of 800. I say everything with love, even if this state does drive me crazy most of the time. ;)

[Chad Hughes]

I eat too much beef heart.. sorry. My bad LMAO! Good one. :D


I say everything with love, even if this state does drive me crazy most of the time. ;)

+1

[blueluv]

Hello fellow discus lovers!

I'm new to the discus hobby. I have to agree with John. Discus are tank raised, therefore discus have adapted to the food that we provide and water parameters. I believe the purpose of this forum is to meet other discus hobbyist and share thoughts, ideas, opinions ect. about discus keeping for beginners like myself. Not to push any subject about discus keeping on anyone. This is the second post were beef heart is viewed in negative way, the first one I read is called beef heart under the microscope, very touchy. I've recently made a batch of homemade bh mix. The results I saw were amazing! Two of my shy discus have come out of their shell and eat more aggressively, also their appetites have increased. Like myself and other discus keepers, we only want what's best our discus.

[MaiaDee]

All:

I truly was not trying to start anything. I should have kept my mouth shut (or my finger still?). It was rude of me to call someone rude in public and for that I apologize.

For the record, I feed my discus a mixed up hybrid beefheart recipe that's a combo of Al and Hans (a combo of their recipes, not a combo of Al and Hans. My tank wouldn't accommodate them). I never meant to imply I do not think it's an adequate diet. Frankly, I have no idea. My fish like it, they are healthy and fat, the experts ;) swear by it so it's good enough for me.

Again, I'm sorry for causing an issue. Peace to all. :angel:

[Rex82]

Everything seems to be above board :p

[nc0gnet0]

Getting back on topic here:


Proper feeding of fish is one of the most important factors in maintaining the health of it in our tanks. To choose the appropriate type of food species, it is necessary to know about what they feed on in the wild.

Here is the root problem of everything you have posted, be it your views, Heiko's views or whoever. The conclusions are drawn from the myth that what the Discus eats in the wild must in turn be the best possible diet for the fish. As John pointed out, this isn't the case at all. Sure they have adapted to survive under those conditions, but your naive to think that if a foreign food substance was introduced into the amazon, the discus would not take advantage of that as well. If this new food source was constant you would witness a higher population density of fish per acre.

Likewise, man can and does replace what an animal might normally feed upon in the wild, and in most cases improve upon it. Do they stumble upon the way? Of course they do. Is there a better alternative to beaf heart/beafheart mix? Probably so, but that is not to say a natural diet is actually better for the fish.

Everyone always assumes that if something is natural, it is better. Many theorys are predicated on this myth. Some are true, many are not.

Rick

[troysdiiscus]

I think compasion is expressed in different ways but the common denominator is always, "how to keep big, beautiful, healthy DISCUS"...... cum by ya....:D
my contribution to the forum........:p lol

[John_Nicholson]

MaiaDee we are good. You did nothing to upset or offend me. I like opinions and I like discussion. Most of the time if it goes long enough goot will come from it.

-john

[the20tonknuckler]

I agree with John also. Been checking this thread all day. I will say however I was a member for more then a year here on the forum before I started posting. Reading threads like this can be intimidating for a newbie and sometimes words have a different context when read rather than heard. While sarcasm is my friend it isn't always evident in written text.

[the20tonknuckler]

I like opinions and I like discussion. Most of the time if it goes long enough goot will come from it.

Totally agree.

[MaiaDee]

I like goot.

[dww-law]

Intersting forum and opinions. Reading forums kept me from keeping discus for a very long time. Let's face it, a lot of what is posted about discus keeping contradicts other fish keeping practices. I know of no other type of fish that people would advocate feeding the heart of a cow, changing water daily, etc. I have learned a lot from researching on this forum. I have used a lot of the information to help me get started. I have also read a lot of nonsense. But that's what makes it fun. As of right now, I have 16 huge discus that seem to be happy, content, social, and amusing.

Group hug:)

Ps what is goot?

[Second Hand Pat]

I am glad y'all are all good.

[aalbina]

Tito?

[strawberryblonde]

Ohhhh myyyyyy goshhhh! Tito?? Tito!!! LOL

[DONTKNOWYET]

I was a bit afraid to open and read more replies and I was hoping everyone forgot about the thread as it became pointless and didn't answer my question.
I see someone even called me a troll afterwards. May I just ask honestly, what did you find so threatening and insulting in the following paragraph, which are the only words in the initial post that are mine? The rest is copy and paste from an article, which I see is regarded as the worst possible source of info for some reason, so I apologize for referring to it. I had no idea.


I was only researching about keeping discus, so not having any myself but I find a lot of controversial material between how discus are kept in aquariums and what they have in nature.

I found an article, sadly not in English but I used google translate. It's in regards to the discus diet. Apparently beef heart and such isn't close to anything they eat in nature or naturally need for proper health according to this anyway. Further down I have put some links to biotopes from different regions too. Even the temperatures measured aren't as high as discus are kept in tanks. Why is that?

[John_Nicholson]

It was the fact that none of this is new. It comes around every few years and the person posting it always thinks they are the first person to every post it on the forum. People just get tired of it and while it might not have been your plan most of the time someone will post something like this and they are not looking for discussion.....they are looking for praise or confirmation of what they have already decided. Because of that some of us (ok mainly me....) tend have little tolerance of it. Found that it gets resolved faster by jumping inwith both feet instead of ignoring it.

As far as I am concerned it is all good. I say we start from here and move forward.

-john

[strawberryblonde]

I don't think it was your first post that was tipped the apple cart, it was probably your second post, which I've quoted below. In that post, even though you were just summarizing, you made some very bold statements about how wrong it is to EVER feed fish of any kind to discus as well the part about it being WRONG (you capitalized it) to give them hearts of warm-blooded animals.

The final paragraph states that it makes them sick, destroys their organs and that this diet is the cause of discus being hard-to-breed fish.

So much in that second post is naive and lacks any practical basis that it boggles my mind just reading it.

How about if you take a few minutes to fill us in on who you are and what your goals are regarding discus by adding to this thread: Tell Us About Yourselves (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?46499-Tell-us-about-yourselves-Please)




To summarize the long thread about the diet if one can't read the bad translation, this is what's written on seriously fish in shorter words:

To Alan. The diet You wrote about is bollocks It’s a strange thing that rarely anybody thinks about what actually feeding the meet of warm-blooded animals does to the (most of) fish. In case od S. sp the results of such a diet means an outstanding growth, coloration.. Everything bigger and better than in the nature. Well.. it does sound strange, doesn’t it? In the Amazon, where they can eat what they want and need they are smaller, yet they are not underfed.

Another thing, in the natural habitat discus is a rather hardy species. It does well avoiding any problems with parasites. Why is that?

The DIET of course! Becouse DISCUS IS MAINLY A HERBIVORE SPECIES!

How so?! What are You talking abou! Blasphemy! Burn him into a crisp!

There were many dissections of discus in the wild. For polish speakers I hereby present the link:
http://krytykaakwarystyczna.wordpress.com/zywienie-ryb-moze-wreszcie-niektorzy-zrozumieja-ze-czyli-czym-odzywiaja-sie-przedstawiciele-rodzaju-symphysodon-w-naturze/

The unprocessed food was analised by Crampton, and the result is, that at the wet season 77% of the food was detrytus and plant matter, 5% were decapods, 10% Chironimidae larvae, 8% were composed of wood matter, bugs and Crustacea. In the dry season, the balance drifts towards bugs and crustacea (only 55% were composed ef the detrytus/plant matter).

Their intestines are not built for devouring the flesh of the warm-blooded animals. It’s typical for plant eaters.

What is the CORRECT FOOD ?

-spirulina
-spinach
-peas
-other vegetables
-shrimps
-glassworm
-bloodworm
-krill

No fish meat was ever found in the stomach of a wild discus.

So it’s NOT RECOMMENDED to give them:
-fish

And it WRONG to give them:
-hearts of warm-blooded animals
-or any parts of warm blooded animals.

It makes them sick, destoys their organs, especially livers. The wrong diet is the cause of the discus beeing considered as a hard-to-breed fish. It’s easy! Bit you need to mind their normal diet! The one that they were constantly exposed since thousands of years.

[Skip]

Yep.. that's the ticket

[Second Hand Pat]

Agree with Toni here on the second post. It is sort of like opening the front door on the house of someone you do not know and shouting at them. You may not get a warm reception. It is much better to say hi, introduce yourself and talk a bit over a cup of coffee or similar drink.

Care to start over. Hi I'm Pat. Happy to meet ya :D Welcome to Simply and the world of discus keeping.

[MaiaDee]

John,
I see the light now. And I apologize again.

[John_Nicholson]

John,
I see the light now. And I apologize again.

As far as I am concerned we are in a good place. Looking forward to meeting you at NADA...hint, hint.....LOL

-john

[DONTKNOWYET]

I don't think it was your first post that was tipped the apple cart, it was probably your second post, which I've quoted below. In that post, even though you were just summarizing, you made some very bold statements about how wrong it is to EVER feed fish of any kind to discus as well the part about it being WRONG (you capitalized it) to give them hearts of warm-blooded animals.

The final paragraph states that it makes them sick, destroys their organs and that this diet is the cause of discus being hard-to-breed fish.

So much in that second post is naive and lacks any practical basis that it boggles my mind just reading it.

How about if you take a few minutes to fill us in on who you are and what your goals are regarding discus by adding to this thread: Tell Us About Yourselves

My apologies for not introducing myself in the first place. .I kind of didn't realize it matters but I will correct this. The second post of my thread you are referring to as being rude is a copy and paste from seriously fish. Please see below:

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/symphysodon-aequifasciatus/

[Skip]

Looking forward to meeting you at NADA...hint, hint.....LOL

-john

YES!! AUSTIN JUNE 2014!!!!!!!

we are getting an AWESOME SHOW!!!!

[strawberryblonde]

Ahhhh, now see, I didn't have a clue that you were quoting someone's response to an article on SeriouslyFish!

Just know that 1 anonymous guy spouting off about how everyone is wrong about how to feed discus, and making carte blanche statements about how feeding beefheart to discus results in organ failure and difficulty in breeding them doesn't make it true. =)

Good to meet you by the way and welcome to the forums!

[Chad Hughes]

Again, Welcome!

I took a look at that web page. Who is Sverting?

FWIW, the page is not very well put together. They talk about wilds and domestics together and the criteria for each of these is rather different. To be honest, that page is confusing. It appears to be a form of fish wikipedia where people contribute to the "information" but it's not checked. They also state:

"Missing information here? Our Knowledge Base is an ever-evolving work in progress, which naturally means that some species profiles contain more information than others. We're working on a daily basis to fill in all the gaps, so please have patience. This site relies heavily on the help of hundreds of people without whose valuable contributions it simply wouldn't exist. Information and photos regarding any freshwater or brackish fish species, its natural history or captive care is always much appreciated, so if you've anything you'd like to share please leave a comment below or email us."

This tells me that they are simply compiling data, some of which isn't likely accurate and certainly isn't current.

You're actually in better hands here at Simply Discus than you would be on Seriously Fish.


My apologies for not introducing myself in the first place. .I kind of didn't realize it matters but I will correct this. The second post of my thread you are referring to as being rude is a copy and paste from seriously fish. Please see below:

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/symphysodon-aequifasciatus/

[DONTKNOWYET]

Thanks. I am really sorry for the confustion. Actually, I didn't realize why my post caused such negative comments until the last few posts cleared it up :o

And a bit of an introduction.
I have been keeping fish for over 20 years on and off. I have 5 tanks currently, 2x100G, 1x30G and 2 smaller tanks. I am a fan of bottom feeder species, like loaches, plecos and corydoras. Getting discus has been haunting me for some time now. I was waiting for it to pass, but it isn't leaving me alone :D , so that's how I came across this forum.
Thank you all for your patience and I am looking forward to learn more from all of you.

[DONTKNOWYET]

Who is Sverting?

I don't know. But I can guarantee you it isn't me. I only used his post to "summarize" because it was that post that led me to that sad article I opened the thread with.

[Chad Hughes]

Let's look at it this way...

Had you not woken John from his nap with your post, it may have gotten ignored. Had that happened, you'd still be thinking the post on the other forum is valid. It simply isn't and now you're the wiser for posting it up here. Yeah, there's drama here on Simply sometimes but it's always for one reason. WE ALL love our discus and want the best for them. If someone on here gives you bad info, many of us, including John, will raise the BS flag...

Some more eloquently than others. :D

[John_Nicholson]

Well now that it is cleared up I am going back to sleep.......


-john

[DONTKNOWYET]

:D Thanks a lot. At least all leads to good things and the benefit of our water pets.

[yim11]

Well now that it is cleared up I am going back to sleep.......


-john

wait - before you go back to sleep I wanted to ask about feeding live blackworms, in a planted tank, that only gets once a month 50% water changes.

[John_Nicholson]

wait - before you go back to sleep I wanted to ask about feeding live blackworms, in a planted tank, that only gets once a month 50% water changes.

Well I have seen your fish so it would probably be an improvement.....LOL.

-john

[Skip]

The last person that caused an uproar like this when they first came to simply..

They later became a sponsor here..!

[strawberryblonde]

Again, Welcome!

Who is Sverting?

Just an FYI because I was bored and well, it's the not knowing that drives this lady nuts. LOL

Sverting appears to be a university student who lives in Poland and who has an interest in some mighty fine looking freshwater fish species. So far as I can tell, he doesn't have discus and has never owned any. Gotta hand it to him, he's abrasive and stubborn as a mule when it comes to doing things his own way, but he also has some nice tanks on display on YouTube. (uh huh John, there are other experts on other fish forums who blast him on a regular basis for some of his outrageous ideas!)

Oh and he's been called out on more than one occasion on other websites for handing out bad advice and opinions that he calls "facts". LOL

And nope, Sverting is NOT our newest member on this thread.

[Chad Hughes]

:sleep:
:sleep:
:sleep:
:sleep:


Well now that it is cleared up I am going back to sleep.......


-john

Exactly... Also notice how the NADA folks stick together here on Simply. LOL! ;) They're HARD CORE discus addicts! :)


:D Thanks a lot. At least all leads to good things and the benefit of our water pets.

LMAO!


Well I have seen your fish so it would probably be an improvement.....LOL.

-john

Very, very interesting.... When you posted "he's abrasive and stubborn as a mule when it comes to doing things his own way, but he also has some nice tanks on display on YouTube." I thought you were talking about John. LOL! :D


Just an FYI because I was bored and well, it's the not knowing that drives this lady nuts. LOL

Sverting appears to be a university student who lives in Poland and who has an interest in some mighty fine looking freshwater fish species. So far as I can tell, he doesn't have discus and has never owned any. Gotta hand it to him, he's abrasive and stubborn as a mule when it comes to doing things his own way, but he also has some nice tanks on display on YouTube. (uh huh John, there are other experts on other fish forums who blast him on a regular basis for some of his outrageous ideas!)

Oh and he's been called out on more than one occasion on other websites for handing out bad advice and opinions that he calls "facts". LOL

And nope, Sverting is NOT our newest member on this thread.

[strawberryblonde]

Very, very interesting.... When you posted "he's abrasive and stubborn as a mule when it comes to doing things his own way, but he also has some nice tanks on display on YouTube." I thought you were talking about John. LOL! :D

Oh you pot stirrer you! LOL

I shall make no comments regarding John, his tanks or his purported mule like tendencies.... cuz well... I am Switzerland!

[strawberryblonde]

Oh hey, just wanted to add one teensy little factoid regarding discus. Though there are claims that no wild discus have ever been found with fish in their stomachs, I have proof positive that mine find live fish quite tasty!

My Marlboro Red got a taste for them the first day that I put Cardinal Tetras into my tank. Scarfed a little one right down in one gulp. After that 1 fish per day disappeared into his maw till they finally got big enough that he couldn't fit them into his mouth.

And then there's last night's WC. My husband saw the whole thing right along with me, so I have witnesses...even if they'd refuse to testify on my behalf. LOL

As I was finishing up the water fill, one of the smaller cardinals...maybe 2" tops, got separated from the school. He flitted around the driftwood looking for them, but wasn't quick enough. Marlboro Red saw him, shot across the tank and gulped. A minute later he spit it out...the part that was stuck in his teeth apparently. It was a small piece of one of the fins. I scooped out the fin while my husband hollered "You go fish, eat those little buggers!"

And that is what happens when you have a 9" discus with a big mouth. They don't eat fish my a**!

[Chad Hughes]

Oh you pot stirrer you! LOL

I shall make no comments regarding John, his tanks or his purported mule like tendencies.... cuz well... I am Switzerland!

:D

[Tazalanche]

Seven pages & now I'm out of popcorn. ;)

[magewynd]

And we all thought it was your feeding regime that got you the serving platter size discus. There you have it folks , a FACT, straight from Toni. Live Cardinal Tetras grow big discus. Out with the beef heart.


Oh hey, just wanted to add one teensy little factoid regarding discus. Though there are claims that no wild discus have ever been found with fish in their stomachs, I have proof positive that mine find live fish quite tasty!


And that is what happens when you have a 9" discus with a big mouth. They don't eat fish my a**!

[strawberryblonde]

ROFLMBO!!!

[Chad Hughes]

And we all thought it was your feeding regime that got you the serving platter size discus. There you have it folks , a FACT, straight from Toni. Live Cardinal Tetras grow big discus. Out with the beef heart.

It's the heart healthy choice. Lol!

[Second Hand Pat]

And we all thought it was your feeding regime that got you the serving platter size discus. There you have it folks , a FACT, straight from Toni. Live Cardinal Tetras grow big discus. Out with the beef heart.

They don't necessarily need to be dinner sized just quick...even wilds can acquire a taste for live cardinal tetra. My guys prefer a little barbecue sauce with theirs :D

[ro_nin]

you know, this reminds me of the debate about what is a "natural and healthy" diet for humans. It has been scientifically proven that humans did not have so many ailments in the days we were eating meat mostly and whatever could be gathered seasonally (basically detritus, a mushroom here, a leaf there and fruit / root in another place). Does that mean that we were healthy as a species? were we more successful?
truth being told, speaking for a good part of the population we are worse off healthwise then those hunter gatherers, but, it' not the mainstreatm population that leads to the development, improvement and success of a species, it's the outliers. As such, even with all the dental and digestive and plethora of other problems that out "farmer" diet induced into our species, I do not see us building atomic reactors and keeping discus for pets as hunter gatherers.
To eat his/her own, but, unless you are willing to experiment, I would stick with what's proven to work.
P.S. don't have any Discus, yet, looking to get some anytime soon.


I don't think it was your first post that was tipped the apple cart, it was probably your second post, which I've quoted below. In that post, even though you were just summarizing, you made some very bold statements about how wrong it is to EVER feed fish of any kind to discus as well the part about it being WRONG (you capitalized it) to give them hearts of warm-blooded animals.

The final paragraph states that it makes them sick, destroys their organs and that this diet is the cause of discus being hard-to-breed fish.

So much in that second post is naive and lacks any practical basis that it boggles my mind just reading it.

How about if you take a few minutes to fill us in on who you are and what your goals are regarding discus by adding to this thread: Tell Us About Yourselves (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?46499-Tell-us-about-yourselves-Please)

[strawberryblonde]

They don't necessarily need to be dinner sized just quick...even wilds can acquire a taste for live cardinal tetra. My guys prefer a little barbecue sauce with theirs :D

Aha! So yours have been going hunting lately too? I am SO not gonna tell Marlboro Man about the Florida BBQ sauce...nope nope, not gonna happen. That guy is spoiled enough as it is!

[Second Hand Pat]

Toni, I once have a beautiful school of nice, fat cards...about 30/40 strong. That school still exists but the fish which are left live in the overflows. If I net them out and put them in the tank they get ate. Yum, yum. Down to three rummy nose. I have pretty much given up on dither fish except for the cories.

[Ryan]

Discus are odd in that sense... they obviously forage in the wild and if the gut analysis is to be believed in the original post, they do eat bugs and copepods and whatnot, which would lead you to believe they'd go for any small prey including fish. I have watched discus decimate small tetras. Then, in an attempt to cull an overabundance of angelfish and kribensis fry, I dumped some fry into my 150 discus community and none of them would even give the fry a second glance. I ended up raising a bunch of 2" kribs in that tank because the discus wouldn't eat them. I have no idea why they'll go after something like tetras but not tiny fry.

[MaiaDee]

They'll go after cory fry, poor babies. :angel:

[strawberryblonde]

Toni, I once have a beautiful school of nice, fat cards...about 30/40 strong. That school still exists but the fish which are left live in the overflows. If I net them out and put them in the tank they get ate. Yum, yum. Down to three rummy nose. I have pretty much given up on dither fish except for the cories.

I had the same thing Pat! Marlboro Man decimated the ranks day after day till there were only about 26 left, and by then they were big enough and smart enough to stay away from him. Then the "roller coaster tube of death ride" happened 2 weeks ago and left me with just 14 in the tank. As of tonight, thanks to that hunk of orange eating machine, I have 10 left.

The remaining 10 are pretty darned big, so he's going to have to learned to bite them in half if he wants to eat them. LOL

I think it's a hoot that your school has to live in the overflow. I found cories in mine once, but never had cards in there.

[strawberryblonde]

They'll go after cory fry, poor babies. :angel:

Yes they do! I have one cory baby who lived and grew, but he's the only one. The rest generally get picked right off of the glass as the eggs are laid. My discus follow the cories around and snatch them up. Any who actually manage to hatch become a fast snack.

[strawberryblonde]

Discus are odd in that sense... they obviously forage in the wild and if the gut analysis is to be believed in the original post, they do eat bugs and copepods and whatnot, which would lead you to believe they'd go for any small prey including fish. I have watched discus decimate small tetras. Then, in an attempt to cull an overabundance of angelfish and kribensis fry, I dumped some fry into my 150 discus community and none of them would even give the fry a second glance. I ended up raising a bunch of 2" kribs in that tank because the discus wouldn't eat them. I have no idea why they'll go after something like tetras but not tiny fry.

So you're saying that once they taste tetra flesh, all other flesh is blech? Or maybe the fry was just too small...think about it, they'd have to eat a dozen of them to equal one tetra. LOL

[Ryan]

So you're saying that once they taste tetra flesh, all other flesh is blech? Or maybe the fry was just too small...think about it, they'd have to eat a dozen of them to equal one tetra. LOL

It seems fry would be easy pickins, though! Given that discus are used as surrogates sometimes, and Al has proven that they will raise fry other than discus fry (he used his pair to raise some angelfish), it could be that breeding discus just go into a parenting mode and don't attack fry. Mine were all laying eggs at the time but none were actually successfully hatching/raising fry because of my water hardness. Maybe there's some kind of weird on/off switch in their brain that tells them not to eat fry when they're all in breeding mode. *shrug*

[Second Hand Pat]

It goes something like this. They eat what you want to keep and ignore the rest.

[Ryan]

So you're saying discus are like the cats of the fish hobby?

[Second Hand Pat]

Not sure I would go that far Ryan :angel:

[the20tonknuckler]

Omg I put in 30 rummy nose about 6 months ago. I am down to 5. Nice expensive snack.
Sometimes I think the fish eat better then me.

[Wjmulder]

I have found my discus will attack any tetras with red, wether it be eyes, nose, whatever. Ate my neons, cards too. I added some pristellas 6 months ago and haven't lost one. Oops, probably shouldn't have said that .....