Beginner in discus keeping

[Figment]

Hi everyone! I am new to this forum. :) I have been bitten by the discus bug. I saw some in my LFS about a year ago and through every tank i have upgraded to or purchased since then, I keep coming back to the idea of keeping discus. So I am going to take the rather expensive plunge. LOL I am told this is the place to be for advice on discus. :)

So I will start off by saying I am not new to fish keeping, just discus (which after reading so much makes it feel like I am brand new LOL). I keep SA cichlids for the most part. I currently have 2 super red severums, 11 quarter size angels I have grown out from pea size, 4 keyholes, and 5 German blue rams spread out between a 125 and a 55. All my fish are juveniles except for the rams (all the fish range in size from 2-4"). I have read a lot of information on discus and can say I feel relatively comfortable jumping into keeping these fish. My plan is to acquire and setup a 90-125 gallon tank to keep as a discus display tank. I have a stock list I want to run by you all later to see if I have put enough thought into their care.

I will start with some water parameter basics. My tap water has a pH of about 7.4-7.5 right away and it drops to 7.1-7.3 after 24 hours. I use Seachem Safe to condition my water and have been for a little over a month and am happy with it. I currently do 3 weekly 50% water changes on my 55 angel tank and 2 weekly 50% water changes on my 125 SA cichlid tank. I know discus require quite a bit of attention (one of the reasons I am testing the angelfish waters to see if I have what it takes to move on to the more difficult discus). My goal will be to start out with 2.5-3" discus from Hans in a bare bottom 55 with small 15-20% daily water changes (mostly to get the poop out) with 3 large 50% changes per week. They would then move to the larger live planted 90-125 gallon tank (not sure what size to move them at?) with 2 weekly 50% water changes. All my tanks are set to 81 degrees and I have good heaters that keep the tank as high as 90 degrees (though the general consensus seems to be 84-86 is the norm). Does this information sound good for their care or should I adjust anything?

Diet wise I have a wide variety of food and would likely invest in special discus food. I currently feed NLS pellets to my cichlids and Hikari frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp (shrimp just for the angels). I believe NLS has a special discus pellet I would buy and I have read a varied diet is best, so I would also feed the frozen shrimp and bloodworms as well as some leafy greens (my cichlids love a leaf of romaine lettuce) one every week or two.

So this stock list will not come to fruition for some time as it will take me time to save up and buy the tank and then all the discus at once (thinking a year to year and a half). I want to stock the following:
- discus (1 per every ten gallons with 30 gallons left unfilled)
- electric blue rams (I can get these guys locally for a pretty good price and love their color. Thinking 4 or 6 for the 30 gallons left open)
- sterbai cories (thinking 8 no matter the tank size)
- dither fish (thinking neons because I am currently breeding my own in a 20 high. If they start getting eaten, I would think of a school of 8-12 lemon tetras depending on tank size)

I love the turquoise colors. I want to get 6-10 discus depending on tank size. The colors I am looking at on Han's site are the brilliant turquoise, the red turquoise and the santarem.

I think that about covers my game plan. I would rather people poke holes in my plan now than the day I get the discus. LOL I am one of those people who plans WELL in advance. :)

So any thoughts or advice are greatly appreciated. If I have made a noobish error, please don't get hostile. We all have to start somewhere. :)

[a volar]

Welcome!
I would suggest starting with this thread if you haven’t read it yet
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?86009-Beginner-s-Guide-to-Getting-Started-with-Discus


And then all the stickies here:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?48-Discus-Basics-for-Beginners

[troysdiiscus]

Welcome to the most informative forum you will find. Glad to have you with us.
I too began along time ago in the cichlid world, SA and lake malawi's, still have a 55 gallon with peacocks, blue haps, labs and acers.
Sounds like you have began your research, couple of things to look for while you are:
When you get juvies, need to feed up to 4 to 5 times a day on a great diet.
Also doing this water quality will have to kept up. When I grew mine out changed 65 to 75% daily. WC WC and more WC..
Keep ph consistant, sounds like you know this by aging for 24 hours.
When they reach 5 inch plus you can move them to a planted tank, I too use to have heavy planted tank, now I go with lightly planted, low tech. Easier to keep up..more show on the discus..
Good luck look forward to seeing your prgress......

[Figment]

Sweet. Thanks for the info guys.

I have been thinking about investing in an automatic feeder so my juvies will be able to get their 4-5 meals a day. :)

What do you think about the stock list ideas?

[troysdiiscus]

humm....really up to you, I like a blue, dark angels intrigues me, red turks, blue snakeskin, blue scorpions, etc. also love hans fire reds, ...so many are very nice...again its up to you.....
Sweet. Thanks for the info guys.

I have been thinking about investing in an automatic feeder so my juvies will be able to get their 4-5 meals a day. :)

What do you think about the stock list ideas?

[Figment]

humm....really up to you, I like a blue, dark angels intrigues me, red turks, blue snakeskin, blue scorpions, etc. also love hans fire reds, ...so many are very nice...again its up to you.....

Sorry. I meant about keeping the electric blue rams, sterbai cories and tetras with the discus.

Obviously color choice is based solely on owner color preference. I saw the fire reds and they just didn't do anything for me. Guess I a just a blue and orange fan. :) I am confused by the dark angels. They are called dark angels, but are pretty much entirely white. Is there an inside joke there somewhere? LOL

[8ftbed]

Welcome to the water changing jihad!
Read enough threads (sticky or not) and you'll soon find that rams, sterbai and rummy nose tetras are as ubiquitous to discus keeping as sponge filters and water changes. Cardinals are also regularly used/suggested. I just recently stumbled onto a post siting cardinals as regular die offs. I was happy to see that (sad for the short shelf life of the beautiful fish) since my past experience with cardinals was exactly that. Look fine and they *poof* *poof* *poof* fade into oblivion as pleco food. Albino bristle nose also seems to be the go to window cleaner. It seems the underlying reasoning for these specimens is that they do better with the higher temps most discus keepers run.

Bottom line though, you can go with tried and true or do your own thing. Whatever works for you is the right solution. The discus side of my aquaria hobby will probably be expensive (ya think? :) ) because I tend to do things my own way. Of course in some cases after banging my face on the glass enough, I might cave in and follow the herd.

If you really want to blend in with the crowd, you also must get some manzanita or some kind of drift wood and hang it upside down and get a ginormous tank. :)

[strawberryblonde]

Welcome to the water changing jihad!
Read enough threads (sticky or not) and you'll soon find that rams, sterbai and rummy nose tetras are as ubiquitous to discus keeping as sponge filters and water changes. Cardinals are also regularly used/suggested. I just recently stumbled onto a post siting cardinals as regular die offs. I was happy to see that (sad for the short shelf life of the beautiful fish) since my past experience with cardinals was exactly that. Look fine and they *poof* *poof* *poof* fade into oblivion as pleco food. Albino bristle nose also seems to be the go to window cleaner. It seems the underlying reasoning for these specimens is that they do better with the higher temps most discus keepers run.

Bottom line though, you can go with tried and true or do your own thing. Whatever works for you is the right solution. The discus side of my aquaria hobby will probably be expensive (ya think? :) ) because I tend to do things my own way. Of course in some cases after banging my face on the glass enough, I might cave in and follow the herd.

If you really want to blend in with the crowd, you also must get some manzanita or some kind of drift wood and hang it upside down and get a ginormous tank. :)

ROFLMBO!! That's the best thing I've read on here in ages. Love love love the last first paragraph for the good info. Love the second paragraph because SO many of us do it our way and I still have a slightly flat nose from banging my head on the glass. Love the third paragraph because it is SO TRUE!!! LOL

[DiscusLoverJeff]

humm....really up to you, I like a blue, dark angels intrigues me, red turks, blue snakeskin, blue scorpions, etc. also love hans fire reds, ...so many are very nice...again its up to you.....


Agree that the dark angels are really nice. They look light blue to almost violet normally and in spawning mode, they get a dark blue (hence the dark angel).

[Figment]

Welcome to the water changing jihad!
Read enough threads (sticky or not) and you'll soon find that rams, sterbai and rummy nose tetras are as ubiquitous to discus keeping as sponge filters and water changes. Cardinals are also regularly used/suggested. I just recently stumbled onto a post siting cardinals as regular die offs. I was happy to see that (sad for the short shelf life of the beautiful fish) since my past experience with cardinals was exactly that. Look fine and they *poof* *poof* *poof* fade into oblivion as pleco food. Albino bristle nose also seems to be the go to window cleaner. It seems the underlying reasoning for these specimens is that they do better with the higher temps most discus keepers run.

Bottom line though, you can go with tried and true or do your own thing. Whatever works for you is the right solution. The discus side of my aquaria hobby will probably be expensive (ya think? :) ) because I tend to do things my own way. Of course in some cases after banging my face on the glass enough, I might cave in and follow the herd.

If you really want to blend in with the crowd, you also must get some manzanita or some kind of drift wood and hang it upside down and get a ginormous tank. :)

LOL Thanks for the humorous style of information. :)

I know a lot of people keep nothing but discus in their tanks without any other living thing, but that is just not my style. I want something that will live happily on the bottom layer without getting aggressive or over 3". I thought about apistos, but no one locally carries any good ones. Plus I try to avoid shipping where possible (clearly not going to be able to do that with discus LOL). Kribs get to mean. So I thought about Bolivian rams and was going to stick with them (one of my LFS has a 90 display with four huge discus and 5 of the biggest Bolivian rams I have ever seen. They had to have been at least 4" each), but then I went to a different LFS that just opened up and found out the owner ordered electric blue rams and a pair formed, so she is going to keep them to breed and sell the fry when they are big enough for much cheaper than she had to buy them for.

I use to rail against cories because I thought they were boring and lacked color. Then I heard of the sterbai in another forum and looked them up in a video showing about 12 of them just climbing all over each other. Now I want a big shoal of them to see this funny behavior. :)

The tetras are the only thing I am flexible about. I like lemon tetras, but they get quite a bit bigger than neons. I love rummynose and I think the new store can get them in cheap if I buy more than 20, but all the other local stores want $3-4 each for rummynose that look like they are on death's doorstep. I don't really have much of a preference between cardinals or neons. They pretty much look the same to me. I know cardinals get bigger than neons and they dot have the white on the belly like neons, but from far away, they just look like neons. I figure the worst case scenario is I breed a bunch of neons and the discus get snacks through a bit of exercise. LOL

[Figment]

Agree that the dark angels are really nice. They look light blue to almost violet normally and in spawning mode, they get a dark blue (hence the dark angel).

Okay. Now the name makes sense. I had been wondering if a blind person named these guys. LOL

[a volar]

Welcome to the water changing jihad!
Read enough threads (sticky or not) and you'll soon find that rams, sterbai and rummy nose tetras are as ubiquitous to discus keeping as sponge filters and water changes. Cardinals are also regularly used/suggested. I just recently stumbled onto a post siting cardinals as regular die offs. I was happy to see that (sad for the short shelf life of the beautiful fish) since my past experience with cardinals was exactly that. Look fine and they *poof* *poof* *poof* fade into oblivion as pleco food. Albino bristle nose also seems to be the go to window cleaner. It seems the underlying reasoning for these specimens is that they do better with the higher temps most discus keepers run.

Bottom line though, you can go with tried and true or do your own thing. Whatever works for you is the right solution. The discus side of my aquaria hobby will probably be expensive (ya think? :) ) because I tend to do things my own way. Of course in some cases after banging my face on the glass enough, I might cave in and follow the herd.

If you really want to blend in with the crowd, you also must get some manzanita or some kind of drift wood and hang it upside down and get a ginormous tank. :)


Very well said!!
Looks like you have been reading a lot....... I really enjoy reading your post, you should give advice to a couple other guys around here that appear to me that they don’t like to read......LOL

[Skip]

Why not get larger fish?

Less trouble and more forgiving of owners mistakes..

[Figment]

Why not get larger fish?

Less trouble and more forgiving of owners mistakes..

I love growing fish out. I take great pride in growing my fish out. It's an enjoyable challenge.

And mistakes are fine to make. How else would I learn? My ultimate goal in life is to open my own pet store. Not just fish because I know quite a bit about reptiles, furry critters, amphibians, and many different kinds of pets (admittedly birds are a bit lost on me). So I eventually want to open a store that is large enough to cater to many different kinds of pet owners and not just be a place where they get their pet supplies, but also where they can go for advice on many different pet related topics. Of course the store will also have a live fish section (maybe reptiles and some small furry pets). :) Growing out fish gives me experience enough so that be able to give sound advice on all the life stages of many different kinds of fish. My specialty in fish keeping seems to center mostly around species compatibility in relation to tank size, but I enjoy learning about all aspects of fish keeping. :)

[8ftbed]

Heh, heh... Glad I could provide a chuckle. Some folks get their hackles up over my take on things..

I like cories but have unfortunately failed all the ones I've had over the years. Don't know why. I remember this dentist office with a big aquarium. Holy crap... They had 4 or 5 albino Cory's that looked like a herd of VW beetles. I've never seen them that big and have always wished. There are some really cool ones like the Panda and Skunk. I picked up a few recently, intended for discus tank. They were (note past tense) really tiny guys. Nothing special. There was also a loan Julii roaming around that was a stray with that shipment, so I took it too. The Julii is the only one that survived and he's one busy beaver.

Yes, I've been following new posts and already seen the general flow. This is like any other forum. Plants, motorcycles, skateboards... Kick back and watch for awhile and you'll see the current fad/trend. You can take it all as gospel and try to emulate the local rock stars, or sift through it all and find out what You like.

There a new thread tonight. Rank his setup. Returning to discus and I guess looking for approval on his planned setup.
Drum roll please ... Bare tank, driftwood, sponge filter, ABN, rummy nose. :) Yeah, that might work. Lol

[Figment]

Heh, heh... Glad I could provide a chuckle. Some folks get their hackles up over my take on things..

I like cories but have unfortunately failed all the ones I've had over the years. Don't know why. I remember this dentist office with a big aquarium. Holy crap... They had 4 or 5 albino Cory's that looked like a herd of VW beetles. I've never seen them that big and have always wished. There are some really cool ones like the Panda and Skunk. I picked up a few recently, intended for discus tank. They were (note past tense) really tiny guys. Nothing special. There was also a loan Julii roaming around that was a stray with that shipment, so I took it too. The Julii is the only one that survived and he's one busy beaver.

Yes, I've been following new posts and already seen the general flow. This is like any other forum. Plants, motorcycles, skateboards... Kick back and watch for awhile and you'll see the current fad/trend. You can take it all as gospel and try to emulate the local rock stars, or sift through it all and find out what You like.

There a new thread tonight. Rank his setup. Returning to discus and I guess looking for approval on his planned setup.
Drum roll please ... Bare tank, driftwood, sponge filter, ABN, rummy nose. :) Yeah, that might work. Lol

I have never owned cories, but like all the fish that I keep, I do a massive amount of research on the fish to the point of unhealthy obsessive reading. LOL So hopefully I have good luck. Anyone who has been in this hobby for more than a couple years knows there are things beyond our control. I have had fish continue to thrive after events that should have killed them (I accidentally knocked an entirely full bottle of Prime into a 55 gallon tank with German blue rams and didn't realize it until almost an hour later when I was looking for it) and I have had an entire group of fish drop dead for no reason. I had an entire school of 15 rummy nose all dead when I came home from work one day.....water was tested for just about anything under the sun (a perk of being a biologist who gets to work with marine fish and mammals) and it came back negative for any toxins with ammonia and nitrites at 0 and nitrates at 3.

LOL I see a lot of those kinds of setups with discus. I think there are two reasons for why people setup their discus tanks very similarly. The first is they are overly cautious. They are afraid to try something new for fear of losing such an expensive fish (a fear I understand and another reason I plan to grow out my discus from small $25-30 fish. I would rather lose a fish I paid $25 for than a fish I paid $200 for whether the reason for the death is my fault or simply random). The second reason is they lack imagination. They find someone with a good imagination and a really nice setup and copy it down to the last grain of sand. I personally have so many wishes for my tank that I would need a massive 3 million gallon tank to fit all my desires into the same aquarium. Sadly, my finances disagree with that dream. LOL

[8ftbed]

Bam! Bam! Bam! I like how you think and feel the same on multiple points.
The obsessive reading can get away from you sometimes. You know the old saying: "study long, study wrong". What works for me in any endeavor (usually) is collect the facts, make a decision and GO! Otherwise I'll sit on the fence, chewing my fingernails and chasing more options down bunny trails that lead to more indecision. That was an oft repeated scenario many moons ago.
The internet can really screw a person up because there's so much, er, input available. What solidified in my last few firing brain cells is that there's many people on forums just repeating what they've read elsewhere or whatever their current idol espouses. So like you, I'll do my trolling through myriad posts to sift out the common denominators to my questions. Rarely will I come right out and ask. If the respondent has not personally succeeded or failed at whatever advice they are offering, I don't want to hear it.
Likewise, if I have input it's from personal experience although I may loosely quote someone who said it better. :)

So here's one of the things I'm about to try as I put a couple of more tanks online. The new sponge filters have bugged me with the short lift tubes. With such big sponges, they'd be more efficient with a longer lift tube to keep the bubbles concentrated longer and get better flow through the sponge. Shoot, back in the UGF days, I concocted ghetto HOB filters by having a strong airflow in the lift tube and the elbow over the tank edge into an old box filter.
After thinking on these short tubes, I'm guessing they're that short to discourage fish from breeding on them. I'm not breeding or worried about fry at this juncture. So I'll be replacing the lift tubes with longer ones and elbows at the top to move the flow across the top.
I'm also going to give my old favorite dither Danios a try.
I haven't had a test kit in many many years. Get the basics down pat and know my fish has worked. What is this, day 5 with my four new discus cycling a 20g tank and they're picture perfect. :) Water changes are something else that's nagged me since I started lurking Discus lore. WC WC WC in massive quantities is written in granite. No one ever says why though. I don't mind work as long as I know why it's necessary. It occurred to me the heavy WC schedule is due to the popularity of beef heart mixes. That will sure foul up the pool. That and the popular quest to try and grow a monster fish which requires power feeding. Yup!! Go back to the basics and even in a well established tank, overfeeding has killed the dreams of many budding aquarists. Although if it's intentional heavy feeding, you already know you have change that water. I don't remember ever seeing beef heart or such being used back when I had a lot of tanks online and tinkering with breeding. Of course I wasn't wading around in the dark Discus waters either. :)

Come on in bro, the water was just changed and is drinkable for the next 5 minutes.

[strawberryblonde]

I haven't had a test kit in many many years. Get the basics down pat and know my fish has worked. What is this, day 5 with my four new discus cycling a 20g tank and they're picture perfect. :) Water changes are something else that's nagged me since I started lurking Discus lore. WC WC WC in massive quantities is written in granite. No one ever says why though. I don't mind work as long as I know why it's necessary. It occurred to me the heavy WC schedule is due to the popularity of beef heart mixes. That will sure foul up the pool. That and the popular quest to try and grow a monster fish which requires power feeding. Yup!! Go back to the basics and even in a well established tank, overfeeding has killed the dreams of many budding aquarists. Although if it's intentional heavy feeding, you already know you have change that water. I don't remember ever seeing beef heart or such being used back when I had a lot of tanks online and tinkering with breeding. Of course I wasn't wading around in the dark Discus waters either. :)

Come on in bro, the water was just changed and is drinkable for the next 5 minutes.

You brought it up, so I'll hop in here. =)

There are various reasons for WC WC WC in massive quantities. You are always welcome to try it your way and if you want to know how that generally turns out, check out the disease section of the forums.

Number 1 reason for water changes with discus. They are very sensitive fish. In the wild they live in acidic water that's very high quality. Low pH, low nitrates, low TDS. In a closed tank environment the nitrates and TDS build up fairly quickly. The majority of tropicals you purchase can tolerate higher nitrates and TDS, discus can't and will sicken over time. It generally doesn't happen over night. They'll be going along, eating like piggies, looking great and a few months will go by, then suddenly, they are sick...really sick.

Number 2 reason for water changes - See Number 1 and add in that you DO need to feed juvies often. It's not just a matter of overfeeding in order to try to grow "monster" discus. Discus in the wild who manage to find proper sources of food WILL grow to be monsters and there are plenty of examples of them on the internet. Most don't get those optimal conditions thanks to predators, pollution, and anything else that affects food sources. So, you have the option to give them optimal amounts of food so that they grow to their natural size, or feed them much smaller amounts, as if they are fighting to survive in the wild, and you'll get nice little discus. Cute little buggers, but definitely not living up to their full potential. So if you are going to feed them the way that they'd feed naturally...grazing all day... and DO want optimal growth, then you need to do the water changes, in massive amounts.

So you respect people with experience, right? Well good lord, I have that in abundance! LOL

I own "monster discus". I don't consider them unusual, they just had a plentiful supply of good quality food as they were growing out, and clean water that never had a chance to accumulate crud. Thing is, it was NOT hard to grow them. Water changes took up 1 hour a day, but most of that was unattended. I liked doing WC's while I prepared meals, watched TV or read a book. Feedings were often...all day...so they could graze. Frozen beefheart was easy to feed, so they got that twice a day.

You mentioned not having ever heard of feeding beefheart, but also mentioned that you weren't into discus before now. And there's the reason you haven't heard of it. Check out Jack Wattley. Google him and you'll find that beefheart has been around for a very long time as discus food. You'll also find that he mentions that water changes are THE most important part of growing out discus. He did all the testing on tanks and tanks of discus. He's the one who did the research. He's the one with the results of those years of testing.

On the flip side, as much as I had great success with raising my discus, I also screwed up big time by breaking QT with a new batch of them last summer. I now have experience in dying discus, sick discus, medicating discus and learning how to build immune systems when they've been decimated by viruses, bacteria and fungus. It's not something I ever wanted to learn, but oh well, it was a lesson well learned. =)

So sure, try changing things up now and then, I think it's great to do that, but get a good foundation first and be sure to document everything you do so that you can share your successes and new methods with the rest of us, ok? If you find something that works better.... I wanna know about it! LOL

[a volar]

LOL I see a lot of those kinds of setups with discus. I think there are two reasons for why people setup their discus tanks very similarly. The first is they are overly cautious. They are afraid to try something new for fear of losing such an expensive fish (a fear I understand and another reason I plan to grow out my discus from small $25-30 fish. I would rather lose a fish I paid $25 for than a fish I paid $200 for whether the reason for the death is my fault or simply random). The second reason is they lack imagination. They find someone with a good imagination and a really nice setup and copy it down to the last grain of sand. I personally have so many wishes for my tank that I would need a massive 3 million gallon tank to fit all my desires into the same aquarium. Sadly, my finances disagree with that dream. LOL

You are very wrong here my friend…… When you are new to discus it’s better to start with adults, you are going to spend less in the long run.

Now if you have better “imagination” please teach me something new about discus.

There is a reason why people here insist in such methods, they are proven, but I’ll be happy to see what your “imagination” can do.

[8ftbed]

"...want optimal growth, then you need to do the water changes, in massive amounts."

There's a bottom line for ya! :)
All true with empirical evidence of success if you look in the right place.

I'd only disagree with two points. I'm not out to change anything. Especially if it works. Two separate careers (spanning 34 years) where troubleshooting and attention to detail were the daily regimen, I rarely take things at face value and when I know something works, I keep an eye out for an epiphany for improvement.
Respect is earned, regardless of experience. This guy has extensive investment and business chops. However comma...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/BernardMadoff.jpg/220px-BernardMadoff.jpg

Yes ma'am, I'm quite aware of JW. :). Ever hear of Dr. Hans Baensch and his two volume Aquarium Atlas? I've still got my '91 print. Anyway, Baensch even heaps great credit on JW. And sites his books.

Baensch touts water changes too. LOL, I've never been this lax though, even for established, underpopulated tanks. :).
Vol 1 pg 770
"Water changes are important, one quarter of the tank should be changed every three weeks."

[Figment]

You are very wrong here my friend…… When you are new to discus it’s better to start with adults, you are going to spend less in the long run.

Now if you have better “imagination” please teach me something new about discus.

There is a reason why people here insist in such methods, they are proven, but I’ll be happy to see what your “imagination” can do.

I do apologize if my comments came across as offensive, but I do believe in what I have said. Having said that, I think I would have a better imagination than most.....for my massive dream tank of several thousand gallons of water. LOL Unfortunately there is a limit to what anyone can do with discus in small aquariums, so I do understand that many people come to the same conclusions in stocking their discus tanks.

And you are going to have to give me reasons why I am wrong if you are attempting to change my mind as to why I should start with 6-10 fish that cost $200+ each versus 6-10 fish that cost $25-30 each. Just telling me I am wrong isn't enough. Why will it cost more in the long run? Why are adults better than juveniles? I have read juvies can be more sensitive than adults, but with good tank maintenance and proper diet, I see no reason why juvies can't thrive in my tank. And again, I would rather learn a $25 dollar lesson than a $200 lesson when the lesson is the same.

I don't know you personally, so I can't comment as to whether I have a better imagination, nor can I teach you something new about discus when I don't know what you know. And that could potentially turn into a very long conversation. When I refer to my imagination, I should have been more specific in saying stocking and decorating a tank. I think if I had a large multi-thousand gallon tank that I could create something very unique and different that would work. However, with the limited space and financial resources available to me, I will be going down a well worn path. When it comes to caring for discus, I have no experience outside of what I have read (all information taken with a grain of salt), which is why I am here.

[Figment]

Bam! Bam! Bam! I like how you think and feel the same on multiple points.
The obsessive reading can get away from you sometimes. You know the old saying: "study long, study wrong". What works for me in any endeavor (usually) is collect the facts, make a decision and GO! Otherwise I'll sit on the fence, chewing my fingernails and chasing more options down bunny trails that lead to more indecision. That was an oft repeated scenario many moons ago.
The internet can really screw a person up because there's so much, er, input available. What solidified in my last few firing brain cells is that there's many people on forums just repeating what they've read elsewhere or whatever their current idol espouses. So like you, I'll do my trolling through myriad posts to sift out the common denominators to my questions. Rarely will I come right out and ask. If the respondent has not personally succeeded or failed at whatever advice they are offering, I don't want to hear it.
Likewise, if I have input it's from personal experience although I may loosely quote someone who said it better. :)

So here's one of the things I'm about to try as I put a couple of more tanks online. The new sponge filters have bugged me with the short lift tubes. With such big sponges, they'd be more efficient with a longer lift tube to keep the bubbles concentrated longer and get better flow through the sponge. Shoot, back in the UGF days, I concocted ghetto HOB filters by having a strong airflow in the lift tube and the elbow over the tank edge into an old box filter.
After thinking on these short tubes, I'm guessing they're that short to discourage fish from breeding on them. I'm not breeding or worried about fry at this juncture. So I'll be replacing the lift tubes with longer ones and elbows at the top to move the flow across the top.
I'm also going to give my old favorite dither Danios a try.
I haven't had a test kit in many many years. Get the basics down pat and know my fish has worked. What is this, day 5 with my four new discus cycling a 20g tank and they're picture perfect. :) Water changes are something else that's nagged me since I started lurking Discus lore. WC WC WC in massive quantities is written in granite. No one ever says why though. I don't mind work as long as I know why it's necessary. It occurred to me the heavy WC schedule is due to the popularity of beef heart mixes. That will sure foul up the pool. That and the popular quest to try and grow a monster fish which requires power feeding. Yup!! Go back to the basics and even in a well established tank, overfeeding has killed the dreams of many budding aquarists. Although if it's intentional heavy feeding, you already know you have change that water. I don't remember ever seeing beef heart or such being used back when I had a lot of tanks online and tinkering with breeding. Of course I wasn't wading around in the dark Discus waters either. :)

Come on in bro, the water was just changed and is drinkable for the next 5 minutes.

I am that guy who reads so much that I almost always end up on the fence "hmmm"ing and "ha"ing over what to do. I can definitely be a very indecisive person. LOL But I think taking nothing at "face value" as you say is a good thing and I do the same. I call it "taking it with a grain of salt".....not sure why. Your saying is better and easier to understand. LOL

Most of the advice or information I give is through personal experience. Either through doing it myself or through troubleshooting issues with a couple of local fish keeper buddies (we all keep SA cichlids though a couple of them have other fish as well). However, I will admit to regurgitating information on occasion if I know the source is reputable and trustworthy (and I don't have many of those sources).

I like your sponge filter plan. Let me know how that turns out. It might be something I look at doing in the future when I set up up my tank if it works out well. :)

I am the same when it comes to wanting to know why. I am that guy at work who questions everything. I know it annoys some people. They want to tell you to do something and expect you to just do it. But if the answer isn't obvious, why am I doing it? What benefit does it provide? If there is no benefit, why should I do it at all? This comes into play a lot in fish keeping, so I understand what you mean about water changes. I know that water changes are important to keep nitrates levels down, especially during the juvenile grow out stage where they require several feedings a day to grow well. However, I also know that not over feeding and keeping them in a planted tank will eliminate the need for large daily water changes. Now it doesn't mean they will get by on one 50% change a week, but instead of 7 50% changes, you could reduce it to 3 or 4. I think a big reason a lot of people really press water changes is because so many people use bare bottom tanks. It's been explained to me that it is easier to target the poop and speeds up water changes, but having a substrate allows for more nitrifying bacteria that would help to reduce. I don't see how it would speed up changes, but I can understand the easier to see poop part. But sand also makes it super easy to see poop, adds a place for a lot of good bacteria to colonize and would also add a place to house live plants that would go a long way to help keep nitrates down. If someone wants to chime in and do a better job of explaining why bare bottom is better than planted for raising juvie discus, please do.

And even though I know it is a tried and true method for growing out discus, I won't be using beef heart. I like keeping things as natural as possible. I don't have to have monster discus. I just want them to grow up to be healthy (not saying beef heart isn't healthy).

[strawberryblonde]

I agree with everything you've said here. I hope you didn't think that I was trying to say that you are somehow doing things incorrectly. I was simply providing the reasons for the massive water changes and the beefheart feedings since you mentioned that you hadn't heard anyone give a reason for them. =)

Oh and you get bonus points for figuring out that I'm a woman! Most people see the name and just assume I'm a male who spells it a bit oddly. LOL

Even the good Dr. Baensch could get it wrong sometimes, eh? I followed his advice to the letter when I started out in fish keeping, and my community tank did quite well with those water changes, but then I discovered that the fish survived longer and stayed healthier if I did 30% every 2 weeks. I continued that practice with all my mixed tropical tanks. And then I discovered discus. Nowadays my hands are rarely dry and my garden has never been moister. :angel:

Trust me on the optimal growth thing. I have pics of my titan discus to back it up. Didn't do anything unusual at all, just changed water twice a day till they were 6", then once a day till 7 inches, then every other day since then. Fed them 6 times a day with 3 different foods and none were particularly "special" or magical. Just Discus flakes along with some spirulina flakes, freeze dried blackworms and generic frozen beefheart that I ordered online.


"...want optimal growth, then you need to do the water changes, in massive amounts."

There's a bottom line for ya! :)
All true with empirical evidence of success if you look in the right place.

I'd only disagree with two points. I'm not out to change anything. Especially if it works. Two separate careers (spanning 34 years) where troubleshooting and attention to detail were the daily regimen, I rarely take things at face value and when I know something works, I keep an eye out for an epiphany for improvement.
Respect is earned, regardless of experience. This guy has extensive investment and business chops. However comma...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/BernardMadoff.jpg/220px-BernardMadoff.jpg

Yes ma'am, I'm quite aware of JW. :). Ever hear of Dr. Hans Baensch and his two volume Aquarium Atlas? I've still got my '91 print. Anyway, Baensch even heaps great credit on JW. And sites his books.

Baensch touts water changes too. LOL, I've never been this lax though, even for established, underpopulated tanks. :).
Vol 1 pg 770
"Water changes are important, one quarter of the tank should be changed every three weeks."

[ynot]

Hi everyone. I get a kick out of the water change conversation. I agree the more water you change any fish is going to grow faster. And the faster a young fish grows the bigger he will be. Since the older he gets the slower his growth rate will be. I bought 5 2.5 inch juveniles from Hans back in September last year and started growing them out in 75 gal planted tank with about 30 to 40 percent wc every 4 to 5 days. I only fed them twice a day and at the end of March this year 2 of them were at 4.5 to 5 inches and the others about 3.5 to 4 inches. And it looked like they had stopped growing then. My wife and I went to the Philippines in April to visit her family and while we were gone my mother fed them once a week and they had no water change for almost a month. When i got home they all grew at least an inch and now the larger ones are about 6 inches and are laying eggs all the time. And Im hoping I can get another inch on these guys before there metabolism slows way down. Now I believe in the water changes but why they had a growth spurt with hardly any food and no wc I don't know. Anyway I have enjoyed the thread and wanted to share my experience.

[8ftbed]

@figment... Me thinks you're gonna do just fine. As a cichlid keeper, you've probably been growing out juvies from the pet shops anyway. You know what's up. :) I hear you on the $25-30 fish too. Do check the sponsors here. Gut feeling says they only get that status with a proven track record and I'm 100% happy with the 4 I got from Michael Beals a week ago.
Next Saturday I'm driving down to Chicagodiscus Josie for another four-pack albeit some top shelf stuff.
I put the 39g (or 37, I forget) up tonight. Got it, stand, light and a 20g last weekend off Craig's List for $80. 1992 vintage but All-Glass made good stuff. I discovered this week that I had kept a 29g in the garage. Yea! Cleaned it up and started painting. It's a '94. Anyway. I put longer lift tubes and elbows on two big sponges in the 39. I'll get pics or vid if you want.
I filled it from water changes on the other tanks and for the next week will siphon out 5g and replace with 5g from established tanks. Get the filters started before fish come next weekend.
I use the grain of salt phrase as well.
Have you still got cichlids going? I always drooled after the blue peacocks and think that 29g will get those. :)


@strawberryblonde ... That's my point of reference. :) I've never know a hairy legged boy who'd use that moniker.
No offense or otherwise taken.
IMO when your filtration matches the bio load and you're on maintenance feeding, daily/weekly water changes aren't mando. Personal experience actually. If I was a betting man, I'd bet you had some irregular wc before discus took over. :)
I'm thinking that's what Baensch's recommendation was for discus, just maintenance feeding and a grow out tank. I don't get paid for thinking anymore, so get your grain of salt out. Heh, heh...
Did you ever see how way back in the beginning, water changes were feared and avoided because it killed the fish. They'd just top it off. Of course now we know it was probably ph shock when they changed water that was months old.
Consistency. Fish and kids both respond to it well

[Figment]

Hi everyone. I get a kick out of the water change conversation. I agree the more water you change any fish is going to grow faster. And the faster a young fish grows the bigger he will be. Since the older he gets the slower his growth rate will be. I bought 5 2.5 inch juveniles from Hans back in September last year and started growing them out in 75 gal planted tank with about 30 to 40 percent wc every 4 to 5 days. I only fed them twice a day and at the end of March this year 2 of them were at 4.5 to 5 inches and the others about 3.5 to 4 inches. And it looked like they had stopped growing then. My wife and I went to the Philippines in April to visit her family and while we were gone my mother fed them once a week and they had no water change for almost a month. When i got home they all grew at least an inch and now the larger ones are about 6 inches and are laying eggs all the time. And Im hoping I can get another inch on these guys before there metabolism slows way down. Now I believe in the water changes but why they had a growth spurt with hardly any food and no wc I don't know. Anyway I have enjoyed the thread and wanted to share my experience.

That is very interesting. I too wonder what made them hit a growth spurt under less than ideal discus water conditions.

[8ftbed]

@ynot ... Excellent and I'm glad you chimed in. I think fish will reach their potential eventually with good basic conditions and food. If you're breeding for money, doing whatever is possible to accelerate that growth is probably pri one.
I'll be backing off once new tanks are cycled. In the mean time, since I'm changing water every day anyway, they're getting frequent groceries.

[Figment]

@figment... Me thinks you're gonna do just fine. As a cichlid keeper, you've probably been growing out juvies from the pet shops anyway. You know what's up. :) I hear you on the $25-30 fish too. Do check the sponsors here. Gut feeling says they only get that status with a proven track record and I'm 100% happy with the 4 I got from Michael Beals a week ago.
Next Saturday I'm driving down to Chicagodiscus Josie for another four-pack albeit some top shelf stuff.
I put the 39g (or 37, I forget) up tonight. Got it, stand, light and a 20g last weekend off Craig's List for $80. 1992 vintage but All-Glass made good stuff. I discovered this week that I had kept a 29g in the garage. Yea! Cleaned it up and started painting. It's a '94. Anyway. I put longer lift tubes and elbows on two big sponges in the 39. I'll get pics or vid if you want.
I filled it from water changes on the other tanks and for the next week will siphon out 5g and replace with 5g from established tanks. Get the filters started before fish come next weekend.
I use the grain of salt phrase as well.
Have you still got cichlids going? I always drooled after the blue peacocks and think that 29g will get those. :)

I do grow out juvies actually. :) I keep South American cichlids though. I did Africans for a while during college, but I just felt like they all had the same body shape with different colors, so I took a three year break before getting back into keeping with the SAs. I currently have four 3" keyhole cichlids (purchased at 3/4" each), two 3.5-4" super red severums (purchased at 2.5" each), five 3" German blue rams (purchased at 2" each), and eleven angelfish ranging from dime to quarter size all bought at pea size (some may be stunted because I didn't realize they needed more than three feedings a day between pea and nickel sizes and I may have to cull them if they don't put on some size in the next month or two).

I plan to buy my discus from Han who I have heard great things about and his prices for 2.5" juvies is really fair. I want domestic rather than wild because they are more forgiving to slight shifts in water parameters from what I read. I am just torn between wild style or line bred colorations. I suppose that since they are all domestic, I could easily just mix up some colors.

[strawberryblonde]

Ok, now where is John when we really need him, huh? huh? LOL

[a volar]

I do apologize if my comments came across as offensive, but I do believe in what I have said. Having said that, I think I would have a better imagination than most.....for my massive dream tank of several thousand gallons of water. LOL Unfortunately there is a limit to what anyone can do with discus in small aquariums, so I do understand that many people come to the same conclusions in stocking their discus tanks.

And you are going to have to give me reasons why I am wrong if you are attempting to change my mind as to why I should start with 6-10 fish that cost $200+ each versus 6-10 fish that cost $25-30 each. Just telling me I am wrong isn't enough. Why will it cost more in the long run? Why are adults better than juveniles? I have read juvies can be more sensitive than adults, but with good tank maintenance and proper diet, I see no reason why juvies can't thrive in my tank. And again, I would rather learn a $25 dollar lesson than a $200 lesson when the lesson is the same.

I don't know you personally, so I can't comment as to whether I have a better imagination, nor can I teach you something new about discus when I don't know what you know. And that could potentially turn into a very long conversation. When I refer to my imagination, I should have been more specific in saying stocking and decorating a tank. I think if I had a large multi-thousand gallon tank that I could create something very unique and different that would work. However, with the limited space and financial resources available to me, I will be going down a well worn path. When it comes to caring for discus, I have no experience outside of what I have read (all information taken with a grain of salt), which is why I am here.

If you think that I'm going to write a few pages to explain what all ready have been explained in many threads in this forum... you are again wrong!

Do me a favor, better said, do yourself a favor, read the beginners section of this forum, get some discus whatever the size you want and then come back and share you toughs in a few months.
But don't get to a conclusion that discus people do this or copy each other just because you read a couple threads.

[8ftbed]

Ah, Ishmael... Regardless of the forum/venue, people in general copy people.
People with questions ask. A usually small group of active people respond and it usually resembles an echo chamber. For good reason on most points. "No Susie, don't stick your hand in the pot to play with the happy bubbles."

Yo FigLeaf... There's been some walls of text up in here. I thought I'd ask if I can continue to join you here in our new path? I promise most of it won't be under the influence.

I rescued 14 long fin Danios from pets mart Ono the way home today. Datum, they're happy campers and is exactly why I've always liked them. I took all of the golds (9) and they had lf zebras I hadn't seen before and grabbed 5 of them. Put 'em in that 40g and wow. What strain are you getting from Hans? Depending on what else Josie has next Saturday that is not listed on her website, I'll join you in a group from Hans.

SB Prez !! Would you favor us with pics of your big albino Corys? I'll say something nice about you on Tuesday.

Edit: oh yeah figment... Meant to tell you one of my other common claims is "figment of my hallucinations"
:)

[Figment]

If you think that I'm going to write a few pages to explain what all ready have been explained in many threads in this forum... you are again wrong!

Do me a favor, better said, do yourself a favor, read the beginners section of this forum, get some discus whatever the size you want and then come back and share you toughs in a few months.
But don't get to a conclusion that discus people do this or copy each other just because you read a couple threads.

If you prefer not to share your experience, that is fine. I honestly don't see why you would post in any thread if you don't want to contribute in a helpful manner, but that is the beauty of opinions I guess.

I have read hundreds of posts on discus as this is something I have been researching for several months now. I have read all the stickies in the beginner section, stickies in other sections, many of the posts here in the beginner section and many in other sections as well. All on top of discussions from other forums and question sites I have read about.

I do intend to contribute where I can once I have some experience in keeping these beautiful fish. Hopefully I can help someone.

I have come to the conclusion that "discus people" as a group, not as individuals, tend to do "this" because I have read hundreds of posts about them doing "this".....whatever "this" is. And many of them do have similar, if not the same, layouts for decor and/or stock list because of the limitations the center piece fish (discus) and their tank size place on the keeper. Heck....I am going to be one of them. My stock list will very similar to many out there and my decor will probably very similar to something someone has now or has done in the past. So discus folks do a lot of copying because of those limitations whether they know it or not. I don't see why you find insult in that.

[Figment]

Ah, Ishmael... Regardless of the forum/venue, people in general copy people.
People with questions ask. A usually small group of active people respond and it usually resembles an echo chamber. For good reason on most points. "No Susie, don't stick your hand in the pot to play with the happy bubbles."

Yo FigLeaf... There's been some walls of text up in here. I thought I'd ask if I can continue to join you here in our new path? I promise most of it won't be under the influence.

I rescued 14 long fin Danios from pets mart Ono the way home today. Datum, they're happy campers and is exactly why I've always liked them. I took all of the golds (9) and they had lf zebras I hadn't seen before and grabbed 5 of them. Put 'em in that 40g and wow. What strain are you getting from Hans? Depending on what else Josie has next Saturday that is not listed on her website, I'll join you in a group from Hans.

SB Prez !! Would you favor us with pics of your big albino Corys? I'll say something nice about you on Tuesday.

Edit: oh yeah figment... Meant to tell you one of my other common claims is "figment of my hallucinations"
:)

I would love to go in on some discus with you......if I had a tank to put them in. LOL I am just in the planning stages unfortunately. I am going to try and secure a 90-125 gallon tank for the discus and have it setup in 6-12 months. If you are interesting in going in on some discus with me, I could definitely do that. :)

As for strains, my favorites are the brilliant turquoise, the red turquoise, the red pigeon blood, the alenquer and the tefe. I will probably narrow that down to 2-3 strains when it comes time to get some. :)

[8ftbed]

Both flavors of turqs and that red pigeon blood also grabbed my attention.

What? You're shopping tanks first? I guess I haven't read enough and am going about it bassackwards. Getting fish and then figure out tankage. :). I looked at 100, 125 and 150 tanks again today when I was getting the danios. Nope, I'll never go the big tank route. I'd rather have a bank of 55's. easier to clean, change water, move and if I slow down or quit for awhile, the 55's will stack nicely in the basement or garage. Now that I'm looking at that 40g bare bottom, they're like house. A lot more room when free of all the clutter like rocks, formations and stuff. Have you seen pics here of bare bottom tanks with a few plants is small pots? I really like that clean look.

ChicagoDiscus just posted a sale of Piwoworski Cobalts. So I grabbed 2 more of those. Next Sat I'll pick up 4 Piwo Cobalts and 2 blue diamonds. She said they're more like 5" now.

As for Hans, I was thinking if we got the same stock at the same time, it might be cool to watch our results from two different locations/methods in the same thread.

[strawberryblonde]

SB Prez !! Would you favor us with pics of your big albino Corys? I'll say something nice about you on Tuesday.



Ok, I must be losing my mind here, but for the life of me I can't figure out who you are talking to. Is that the initials of my nick? Who's Prez? Where did anyone mention big albino Corys?

And I do have pics of my big Albino Corys, as well as my fat Sterbai's, who managed to have one baby Sterbai in my tank. And also pics of my "monster" discus, who aren't really monsters, they just reached their optimal size.

But again I ask, who on earth is SB Prez? LOL

[8ftbed]

You mentioned your titans and full figured corys. I should've said VP instead of Prez (according to your siggy) and in all actuality, I suppose was being a bit too familiar shortening strawberryblonde to SB. You apparently knew who I was addressing but please forgive my lack of tact and respect for the office.

[strawberryblonde]

I sorta guessed that it was me, but I wasn't sure and I didn't want to post pics based on an assumption. LOL

The office I hold is only in my sig so that I can include a link to NADA, which is a great organization... I'm not hung up on titles at all.

Ok, pics of corys and discus coming right up. One sec...

The corys first. Bought 2 albino's and 3 Sterbai's. Took this pic and discovered that one of the Sterbai eggs had managed to hatch, survive and grow in a slightly planted tank.

http://crippledfrog.com/corys.jpg

Next up, the titans...with a batch of Golden Sunshines who have grown to 6" - 7" so far but aren't a year old yet, so have more growing to do.

http://crippledfrog.com/Red%20Turq.jpg

http://crippledfrog.com/IMG_3626.jpg

The big Marlboro is next to one of the growing GS. I'm providing the measurements of both of them for you.

http://crippledfrog.com/4134.jpg

http://crippledfrog.com/IMG_3614.jpg

http://crippledfrog.com/4112.jpg

And the pic from two days ago of the three largest (8.75" - 9") enjoying the sunrise as it hits the tank.

http://crippledfrog.com/titans.jpg

[Figment]

Both flavors of turqs and that red pigeon blood also grabbed my attention.

What? You're shopping tanks first? I guess I haven't read enough and am going about it bassackwards. Getting fish and then figure out tankage. :). I looked at 100, 125 and 150 tanks again today when I was getting the danios. Nope, I'll never go the big tank route. I'd rather have a bank of 55's. easier to clean, change water, move and if I slow down or quit for awhile, the 55's will stack nicely in the basement or garage. Now that I'm looking at that 40g bare bottom, they're like house. A lot more room when free of all the clutter like rocks, formations and stuff. Have you seen pics here of bare bottom tanks with a few plants is small pots? I really like that clean look.

ChicagoDiscus just posted a sale of Piwoworski Cobalts. So I grabbed 2 more of those. Next Sat I'll pick up 4 Piwo Cobalts and 2 blue diamonds. She said they're more like 5" now.

As for Hans, I was thinking if we got the same stock at the same time, it might be cool to watch our results from two different locations/methods in the same thread.

I will find you when the moment has come and if you have room for some discus, we can definitely conduct this experiment. We will need to agree on some rules first. LOL ;)

[Figment]

I sorta guessed that it was me, but I wasn't sure and I didn't want to post pics based on an assumption. LOL

The office I hold is only in my sig so that I can include a link to NADA, which is a great organization... I'm not hung up on titles at all.

Ok, pics of corys and discus coming right up. One sec...

The corys first. Bought 2 albino's and 3 Sterbai's. Took this pic and discovered that one of the Sterbai eggs had managed to hatch, survive and grow in a slightly planted tank.

http://crippledfrog.com/corys.jpg

Next up, the titans...with a batch of Golden Sunshines who have grown to 6" - 7" so far but aren't a year old yet, so have more growing to do.

http://crippledfrog.com/Red%20Turq.jpg

http://crippledfrog.com/IMG_3626.jpg

The big Marlboro is next to one of the growing GS. I'm providing the measurements of both of them for you.

http://crippledfrog.com/4134.jpg

http://crippledfrog.com/IMG_3614.jpg

http://crippledfrog.com/4112.jpg

And the pic from two days ago of the three largest (8.75" - 9") enjoying the sunrise as it hits the tank.

http://crippledfrog.com/titans.jpg

Wow. Beautiful fish. I love the sterbai cories with their little yellow fins. :)

What is the second, third and bottom right discus? Red turquoise? Whatever it is, its gorgeous. I love reds and blues of many of the species of discus. Great looking fish, all of them.

[Figment]

So is 8-9" the optimal growth range of "giant/Titan/massive/monster" discus? :)

[strawberryblonde]

Yup yup, that's my Red Turq. I love that guy, he's just so darned friendly. Never gets into fights or picks on the little ones.

I know you said that you're buying Hans discus, so yep, I'd say that 8-9" is the optimal growth range for them. I can't speak for other discus, but I can tell you that my GS were from another breeder and have grown very well so far. I don't think they'll reach 9", but 7.5 - 8" wouldn't surprise me.

You're always going to find one or two who never seem to grow much. My assumption is that it's basic genetics and they got the short gene. I've had 2 small ones over the last 2 years. They reached 6" and not a smidge more.

Not pictured here is also a FlachenSS who is pushing 7.5 - 8". He's currently in a tank of his own, which the rest of the discus are thankful for since his nickname is a well earned "Cujo". LOL

[8ftbed]

Speaking of NADA, read this figment. ----> http://www.discusnada.org/discus101.html

Found that while nosing around their site and thought it quite interesting and a bit contrary to some commonly repeated advice. I like how he gives the 'Why' for certain discus-centric handling. For instance it's the first time I've seen anyone say the discus are constantly exuding slime. I'd only seen mention of them sliming when sick. The author indicates this slime attaches to everything allowing for foul conditions which is why bare bottoms are so popular. That makes sense. While you can wipe the walls. (Seems there's regular discussion on how often people wipe down walls but I'd never seen mention of body slime as the reason), getting the slime off gravel and sand is not so easily done.
I also chuckled when he said Discus are large fish...mature specimens should grow to at least 4 inches.
When you're ready to pull the trigger, holler and I'll get a couple of the same juvies.
Beware analysis paralysis. :)

Speaking of size, thanks for the pics strawberryblonde and according to your sites discus101... You have some freaks of nature. Would they pass a whiz quiz? They've got to be spectacular in person. Love the albino shots and cool sterbai story. Unexpected volunteers are a favorite thing in the garden too. You wouldn't have gotten the extra Cory if you were scrupulous in cleaning. Just like I wouldn't get volunteer peonies. Speaking of which, I've found 4 new seedlings this spring. Now to wait and watch for 3 years to see how they'll bloom.

[Figment]

Speaking of NADA, read this figment. ----> http://www.discusnada.org/discus101.html

Found that while nosing around their site and thought it quite interesting and a bit contrary to some commonly repeated advice. I like how he gives the 'Why' for certain discus-centric handling. For instance it's the first time I've seen anyone say the discus are constantly exuding slime. I'd only seen mention of them sliming when sick. The author indicates this slime attaches to everything allowing for foul conditions which is why bare bottoms are so popular. That makes sense. While you can wipe the walls. (Seems there's regular discussion on how often people wipe down walls but I'd never seen mention of body slime as the reason), getting the slime off gravel and sand is not so easily done.
I also chuckled when he said Discus are large fish...mature specimens should grow to at least 4 inches.
When you're ready to pull the trigger, holler and I'll get a couple of the same juvies.
Beware analysis paralysis. :)

Speaking of size, thanks for the pics strawberryblonde and according to your sites discus101... You have some freaks of nature. Would they pass a whiz quiz? They've got to be spectacular in person. Love the albino shots and cool sterbai story. Unexpected volunteers are a favorite thing in the garden too. You wouldn't have gotten the extra Cory if you were scrupulous in cleaning. Just like I wouldn't get volunteer peonies. Speaking of which, I've found 4 new seedlings this spring. Now to wait and watch for 3 years to see how they'll bloom.

Thanks for the read, 8ftbed. Lots of good inform there. Didn't know about the slime thing either. I also laughed a little at mature fish reaching 4". :) I LOVE that he gives information about why some things need to be done and not just tell you they need to get done. I am a trainer at work, so I hate when someone asks why we do things a certain way and the only answer I really have is "we just do". It's so stupid. People are much more likely to do something if they understand the reasoning behind it.

The author never mentions sand as a substrate. I started out with gravel like many aquarists and once I discovered sand, I have never looked back. Gravel is immensely hard to keep clean because everything just falls down in between the rocks and fouls up the water. My sand is very easy to clean. It's compacts so tightly, I can just suction the debris right off the top. The only downside to having sand that I have discovered so far is the potential risk of gas pocket buildups that can wipe out a tank. It's the reason I am going to buy a bunch of non-reproducing snails for my tanks. They crawl through the sand and help to break up potential gas pockets. I still manually sift through the sand once a month just to be sure. Anyways, I will be keeping my discus in planted tanks with sand. The slime should still just collect on top of the sand and be relatively easy to suction off. It will be extra work, but I just don't like the look of a bare bottom tank. I still may end up raising my juvies in a bare bottom tank, but the adults will most definitely be in a planted one.

I like his take on water changes. It seems reasonable without being over the top and a waste of time and water. I would definitely not mind doing 15-20% water changes daily, but I still like my idea of 50% water changes every other day. That is of course for adult fish I am assuming, so my juvies would get 50% daily changes.

Thanks again for the good info. :) I will definitely shoot you a message and we can raise some juvies together.

[strawberryblonde]

Speaking of size, thanks for the pics strawberryblonde and according to your sites discus101... You have some freaks of nature. Would they pass a whiz quiz? They've got to be spectacular in person. Love the albino shots and cool sterbai story. Unexpected volunteers are a favorite thing in the garden too. You wouldn't have gotten the extra Cory if you were scrupulous in cleaning. Just like I wouldn't get volunteer peonies. Speaking of which, I've found 4 new seedlings this spring. Now to wait and watch for 3 years to see how they'll bloom.

I'm thinking I've about run out of patience at this point. The first post you made on this thread was, I thought, humorous in nature. Now I'm thinking that I was taking it at face value and totally missed the pointed barbs. No big thing, I tend to think well of people until they've proved me wrong at least once, most times twice. LOL

So here ya go, last few thoughts on discus and corys.

1) My tank is scrupulously clean as much as any tank can be when fish are constantly pooping. The extra Cory survived by hiding in a plant I'm sure, and he also survived because I feed my discus 6 times a day and allow the food to fall to the bottom so that they can graze for an hour. The baby cory, as well as the adults, find lots to eat down there and plenty sifts into sword plant leaves. Any leftovers that don't get consumed get siphoned out at the next daily cleaning. Well, it was daily cleanings back then since I was raising sub-adult discus.

2) My discus aren't freaks of nature. They are naturally large discus, which is something that Hans tends to import and sell.

3) We're known here at Simply Discus for being the fish nerds. We endlessly go back and forth on every subject from water quality to food, to lighting, to the best types of filter media. There's room for anyone with an inquisitive mind to find a home here and fit in.

4) As a result of #3, the methods used to raise and keep healthy discus change. Someone finds a better way, we all question it, test it and if it's valid, we go with it! Discus aren't very forgiving fish and once you've invested big bucks into buying a small herd of them you definitely want to keep them alive and healthy, so you read and figure out how best to do that. Or you visit the disease section of the forum.

Along the way I've met many wonderful folks on these forums who openly state that they don't want to grow large fish because of the extra work involved. They are perfectly content with 5" discus and weekly water changes. That's fine by me because they know what they want out of the hobby. I've chosen a different route. I didn't expect to get big discus when I started out, but now that I have them, I love them and want to continue growing them to their full potential.

I'm glad that you checked out the NADA site. Stay tuned for changes to it in the near future. We're planning to update information and give it a general overhaul.

And that's it for me. You're not the first person to come here with an attitude, and you won't be the last. I hope that whatever methods of care you choose to use with your discus works for you. I like seeing people succeed. I just might choose not to respond to future posts and threads if they are as querulous as these have become. Sorry, button pushing just doesn't do it for me these days. Peaceful discussion...oh yeah....that's more my thing. =)

[8ftbed]

Well, no idea how I pulled that off. There was no offense, attack or querulous barbs intended. Sorry you took it that way. Internet can be that way though. I had nothing but compliments for your size and surprise.

@figment - 4 of my years in the Navy were on platform teaching advanced electronics. It really perverted me towards any future educational experiences whether reading books, lunch and learns or formal classes. It was really a pisser during my next career in the corporate environment. All these "trainers" who do nothing more than read the material to you and teach the test so their stats and reviews look good. If you're really trying to understand and ask questions to get a better view inside and out, most instructors fluster or want to meet after class or something. When I was teaching (different group of 25-35 each week) the first thing I did was tell them to put the books on the floor. They could/should read that on their own time and if anything have questions ready. I guess it can be an issue with some people though. During my corporate stint, word got back to me that a certain director of a department I supported, commented in a meeting that "If you ask Blaine what time it is, he tells you how to build a watch."

I had an epiphany last night. Aren't most of the popular discus, multiple generations and many years away from their roots from rigorous breeding programs (bless them people!)? Then I guess their natural habitat would be a painted, bare bottom tank and sponges, right? Unless you've got some wild caught and then you'd need to go wood, sand and plants to emulate their nursery. :) Joking of course but then again, it would be true. I'm going to try sand which I've not done before. I wasn't aware of gas pockets though. The old UGF's (which I guess are still used sometimes) got to be a pain when you had to tear it down to get at the mulm build up under the plate. Then I went with straight gravel and the Python makes it easy enough to keep clean. Vacuuming during water changes but once a month I'll do 50%-60% change and move structure around and ease the tube in to the tank bottom for deep cleaning. That's half a tank every two weeks.
Today I'm extending the lift tubes on 20g the original discus are in.

[Figment]

I'm thinking I've about run out of patience at this point. The first post you made on this thread was, I thought, humorous in nature. Now I'm thinking that I was taking it at face value and totally missed the pointed barbs. No big thing, I tend to think well of people until they've proved me wrong at least once, most times twice. LOL

So here ya go, last few thoughts on discus and corys.

1) My tank is scrupulously clean as much as any tank can be when fish are constantly pooping. The extra Cory survived by hiding in a plant I'm sure, and he also survived because I feed my discus 6 times a day and allow the food to fall to the bottom so that they can graze for an hour. The baby cory, as well as the adults, find lots to eat down there and plenty sifts into sword plant leaves. Any leftovers that don't get consumed get siphoned out at the next daily cleaning. Well, it was daily cleanings back then since I was raising sub-adult discus.

2) My discus aren't freaks of nature. They are naturally large discus, which is something that Hans tends to import and sell.

3) We're known here at Simply Discus for being the fish nerds. We endlessly go back and forth on every subject from water quality to food, to lighting, to the best types of filter media. There's room for anyone with an inquisitive mind to find a home here and fit in.

4) As a result of #3, the methods used to raise and keep healthy discus change. Someone finds a better way, we all question it, test it and if it's valid, we go with it! Discus aren't very forgiving fish and once you've invested big bucks into buying a small herd of them you definitely want to keep them alive and healthy, so you read and figure out how best to do that. Or you visit the disease section of the forum.

Along the way I've met many wonderful folks on these forums who openly state that they don't want to grow large fish because of the extra work involved. They are perfectly content with 5" discus and weekly water changes. That's fine by me because they know what they want out of the hobby. I've chosen a different route. I didn't expect to get big discus when I started out, but now that I have them, I love them and want to continue growing them to their full potential.

I'm glad that you checked out the NADA site. Stay tuned for changes to it in the near future. We're planning to update information and give it a general overhaul.

And that's it for me. You're not the first person to come here with an attitude, and you won't be the last. I hope that whatever methods of care you choose to use with your discus works for you. I like seeing people succeed. I just might choose not to respond to future posts and threads if they are as querulous as these have become. Sorry, button pushing just doesn't do it for me these days. Peaceful discussion...oh yeah....that's more my thing. =)

I am finding the NADA site as informative as SD. :)

I think I fall into that group of people who want discus at their wild size (I think I read 5-7"). That is part due to beef heart. I know it is the end all, be all of high protein discus diets, but it just seems unnatural to me and my personal taste (nothing against people who use it because they still have wonderful looking fish, but I know its just a personal preference choice). The other part is setup. This is also just a personal taste choice. I know there are many discus keepers who use bare bottom tank for the entire lifespan of their discus, but I feel a well decorated tank makes them shine even more. Although, since learning if your site and reading more info here on SD, I know that it will be challenging to get discus to monster size in a well decorated tank. But I also think a lot of argument about discus stem from their growth and how the people who say "optimal size" really mean monster size. To me at least, optimal size is the size they would reach in the wild (again, I think that is 5-7"). Just my two cents worth. As long as I get discus that reach about 6" in size, I will be a happy camper. Bigger wouldn't be unwelcome either. I guess we will find out. :)

Your discus are still beautiful and I can only applaud the sheer amount of work and dedication that you must have put into getting your discus to 8-9" sizes.

[Figment]

Well, no idea how I pulled that off. There was no offense, attack or querulous barbs intended. Sorry you took it that way. Internet can be that way though. I had nothing but compliments for your size and surprise.

@figment - 4 of my years in the Navy were on platform teaching advanced electronics. It really perverted me towards any future educational experiences whether reading books, lunch and learns or formal classes. It was really a pisser during my next career in the corporate environment. All these "trainers" who do nothing more than read the material to you and teach the test so their stats and reviews look good. If you're really trying to understand and ask questions to get a better view inside and out, most instructors fluster or want to meet after class or something. When I was teaching (different group of 25-35 each week) the first thing I did was tell them to put the books on the floor. They could/should read that on their own time and if anything have questions ready. I guess it can be an issue with some people though. During my corporate stint, word got back to me that a certain director of a department I supported, commented in a meeting that "If you ask Blaine what time it is, he tells you how to build a watch."

I had an epiphany last night. Aren't most of the popular discus, multiple generations and many years away from their roots from rigorous breeding programs (bless them people!)? Then I guess their natural habitat would be a painted, bare bottom tank and sponges, right? Unless you've got some wild caught and then you'd need to go wood, sand and plants to emulate their nursery. :) Joking of course but then again, it would be true. I'm going to try sand which I've not done before. I wasn't aware of gas pockets though. The old UGF's (which I guess are still used sometimes) got to be a pain when you had to tear it down to get at the mulm build up under the plate. Then I went with straight gravel and the Python makes it easy enough to keep clean. Vacuuming during water changes but once a month I'll do 50%-60% change and move structure around and ease the tube in to the tank bottom for deep cleaning. That's half a tank every two weeks.
Today I'm extending the lift tubes on 20g the original discus are in.

It takes a month or two to reach lethal levels, but a pocket of methane or other gas will build up under the sand until something releases (you, your fish or just the pocket got too big and ruptured). You then have lethal gas that dissolves into the water and poisons the fish.

I never used UGFs, but have heard cleaning them was a real pain. I don't even think its recommended for use by anyone (t least not that I have seen).

[strawberryblonde]

I am finding the NADA site as informative as SD. :)

I think I fall into that group of people who want discus at their wild size (I think I read 5-7"). That is part due to beef heart. I know it is the end all, be all of high protein discus diets, but it just seems unnatural to me and my personal taste (nothing against people who use it because they still have wonderful looking fish, but I know its just a personal preference choice). The other part is setup. This is also just a personal taste choice. I know there are many discus keepers who use bare bottom tank for the entire lifespan of their discus, but I feel a well decorated tank makes them shine even more. Although, since learning if your site and reading more info here on SD, I know that it will be challenging to get discus to monster size in a well decorated tank. But I also think a lot of argument about discus stem from their growth and how the people who say "optimal size" really mean monster size. To me at least, optimal size is the size they would reach in the wild (again, I think that is 5-7"). Just my two cents worth. As long as I get discus that reach about 6" in size, I will be a happy camper. Bigger wouldn't be unwelcome either. I guess we will find out. :)

Your discus are still beautiful and I can only applaud the sheer amount of work and dedication that you must have put into getting your discus to 8-9" sizes.

Hi Fig,

I hope you know that my last post wasn't aimed in your direction, it was a direct reply to 8ft. I hope you get exactly the discus tank you want, with big healthy fish. Like I said in my last post, if people go into it knowing that they are happy with 5-7" discus if it means a prettier tank and less work, then I'm completely behind them. We each have to figure out what our goals are, and there's plenty of good info out there about how to achieve that once you know where you're going.

Please keep us posted as you get your tank together, ok? And pics, must have pics! LOL

[John_Nicholson]

Ok, now where is John when we really need him, huh? huh? LOL

Sorry I was off flirting with another women.......

I have read most of this and here is my take.........

There are many different ways to raise discus. Most will result in the fish not reaching its full potential. I have seen lots of people get into the hobby and try to impress us with how great they are compared to how stubborn some of us can be. Normally this is because we do not fall to our knees and tell them how great their "new" ideas are.....LOL. Got news for you you are probably the one millionth newbie to think they are going to set the world on fire. What happens about 80% of the cases is they stir up a lot of crap, tell everyone how great their fish are doing, tell us show brilliant they are, and then they disappear because all of their discus got sick and died "out of the blue". The other 20%? They read what the longtime discus people post and change their thinking. They are known as successful discus keepers. Now I am not telling you to conform and do it exactly like me. By all means do it anyway you want and after a year or so post your results. Even better bring some of the fish to the NADA in 2014 and show your results. I saw where you are a biologist...so if you had a new theory is it enough to simply write an article declaring how bright you are or would you have to do actual research, analyze the results, and then (and only then) post your results to be peer reviewed?

Well what Toni is telling you has been duplicated and studied non-stop for the last 40 years or so.

Good luck with your fish but remember nothing that you have mentioned is even close to new.

-john

[strawberryblonde]

Sorry I was off flirting with another women.......

-john

Other women? Humph.. I'm wounded. LOL

[John_Nicholson]

I have a weakness for beautiful women...I always have. personally I hope I never change...LOL.

-john

[Figment]

Sorry I was off flirting with another women.......

I have read most of this and here is my take.........

There are many different ways to raise discus. Most will result in the fish not reaching its full potential. I have seen lots of people get into the hobby and try to impress us with how great they are compared to how stubborn some of us can be. Normally this is because we do not fall to our knees and tell them how great their "new" ideas are.....LOL. Got news for you you are probably the one millionth newbie to think they are going to set the world on fire. What happens about 80% of the cases is they stir up a lot of crap, tell everyone how great their fish are doing, tell us show brilliant they are, and then they disappear because all of their discus got sick and died "out of the blue". The other 20%? They read what the longtime discus people post and change their thinking. They are known as successful discus keepers. Now I am not telling you to conform and do it exactly like me. By all means do it anyway you want and after a year or so post your results. Even better bring some of the fish to the NADA in 2014 and show your results. I saw where you are a biologist...so if you had a new theory is it enough to simply write an article declaring how bright you are or would you have to do actual research, analyze the results, and then (and only then) post your results to be peer reviewed?

Well what Toni is telling you has been duplicated and studied non-stop for the last 40 years or so.

Good luck with your fish but remember nothing that you have mentioned is even close to new.

-john

By no means am I expecting or even trying to change the world of discus keeping. I am a marine biologist who studies social behavior in marine mammals. So the fundamentals of my job are very different from the fundamentals of freshwater fish care, especially discus care. I have an above average understanding of the biological needs of freshwater fish in part because of having kept them for years and in part because of my line of work, but I would definitely not label myself as an expert, especially on discus. I think I could create something great if I had a 500,000 gallon tank, but that isn't going to happen. And I will clarify that I think my 500k gallon tank idea would only be unique in design, not in the care of these fish. So no, I am not trying to stir up any crap, but I do have a way that I want to do this and that is what I have come here for....to put my thoughts on how I want to do this out there for the discus keepers to see and tell me if I have something that will work.

Now when you say "full potential", are we talking about the monster 8-9" sizes or the wild potential of 5-6"? I am happy keeping discus as long as they will reach their wild potential of 5-6".

I guess the bottom line is this:
I am willing to keep the juveniles in a bare bottom tank until they reach 4-5". Once they are at this size, they would be placed in a decorated tank. I would want to keep them with tank mates that include rams, cories and small tetras, but would of course keep a close eye on any problems and give priority protection to the discus by removing any aggressors or trouble makers. I would be willing to do small daily water changes (10-20%) on a juvenile bare bottom tank with one or two large weekly changes (50%). The display tank would get a 25-30% water change every other day at the most, but would prefer to keep this down to two 50% water changes a week.

If you think I can achieve 6" discus using the methods I listed above, I will definitely be keeping them. If not, I may very well pass on keeping them. The water changes are the biggest rule for me followed by the decorated tank rule.

So what do you think?

[8ftbed]

I thought this might have been for Me John but since I'm not a biologist, out to change the world and am in no way inclined to raise fish for show or breeding bragging rights, guess it ain't me.
Your points are generally valid in any sport, hobby or profession though. Shoot, any activity for that matter. Certain aspects can only be handled in tried and true ways, while others may have different options. The old disclaimer applies though: results may vary. :)

I grew up in the panhandle (Amarillo was the 'big town'), adopted Corpus Christi and my sisters all ended up in Plano, McKinney and Grapevine. When I ended up around Chicago I used to try and avoid the interstate congestion and crappy drivers all the time. Yeah, I could still get from point A to point B but eventually caved into the realization that my shortcuts took longer and cost more. Lol

High maintenance, debt, frustration, sudden unexplained failure when you've been doing everything right...
Discus and beautiful women have a lot in common, ya think? :)

[yim11]

Were you a Sandie? Folks are still in CC, was there this past weekend.

[John_Nicholson]

First "wild potential of 5-6"" you realize that wild fish do get bigger than this right? Trouble is people here in the states do not want to spend the money and people in Japan often do. Here people balk at paying $150 for a wild. The big ones that reach their full potential start at around $500.

Can you get your fish to 6 inches...I would sure hope so. If not you need to buy your discus from a better source. When I say that it is with the assumption that you realize that their is a pecking order in discus and that the low man on the totem pole will new reach full size. You are just trying to get as many of them as you can to obtain as much of their potential as possible. As a highly trained professional you should realize that raising discus is extremely easy. It only takes 3 things. Start with healthy fish, Feed them well, and keep the water clean. How you chose to do these thing is strictly left up to you. Most methods fail in the water department. Filters help but they seldom replace water changes.

I am sure your a great guy I just hate it when a new person writes stuff in a way that tends to make other new people make mistakes. There is one way that has been proven to produce good results over all others. That is what I normally advocate for newbies. Do whatever you want with your fish and please keep us posted on the results. I am sure you will not have any issues. As a biologist keeping a simple freshwater aquarium should be as simple as 2 + 2.....

-john

[8ftbed]

Hi ya figment! I had to shoot something with GoPro in order to the update the software (hopefully this resolves the power issues HD3 has had), so here's a fisheye view in the fish/workout room. I wasn't expecting Dr. Fosters & Smith shipment to be in yet but it showed up today, so I have a full hood for that 39g I got off Craig's List. It's cooking with Danios and you can see the sponge filters with full length lift tubes. This is where the group of Discus are going that I pick up Saturday. Community tank, sick tank (although it's never had a sickie in it :) it's been a QT) and then the future pool. I've got stills to upload of Beals' discus in another tank.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-AdzC_gVyY&feature=youtu.be

[8ftbed]

Other pics are in my Mr. Beals thread in the sponsor.

http://media301.dropshots.com/photos/215473/20130514/ori_185710.jpg

There was supposed to be two Crystals. The other one is lighter in color and a shy guy. It comes out to eat but otherwise stays in the back out of the way, lest he get bullied. This dark gold one though, it's the smaller of the two. He don't care and the last couple of days has really been front and center for groceries.

http://media301.dropshots.com/photos/215473/20130514/ori_185611.jpg

[Figment]

First "wild potential of 5-6"" you realize that wild fish do get bigger than this right? Trouble is people here in the states do not want to spend the money and people in Japan often do. Here people balk at paying $150 for a wild. The big ones that reach their full potential start at around $500.

Can you get your fish to 6 inches...I would sure hope so. If not you need to buy your discus from a better source. When I say that it is with the assumption that you realize that their is a pecking order in discus and that the low man on the totem pole will new reach full size. You are just trying to get as many of them as you can to obtain as much of their potential as possible. As a highly trained professional you should realize that raising discus is extremely easy. It only takes 3 things. Start with healthy fish, Feed them well, and keep the water clean. How you chose to do these thing is strictly left up to you. Most methods fail in the water department. Filters help but they seldom replace water changes.

I am sure your a great guy I just hate it when a new person writes stuff in a way that tends to make other new people make mistakes. There is one way that has been proven to produce good results over all others. That is what I normally advocate for newbies. Do whatever you want with your fish and please keep us posted on the results. I am sure you will not have any issues. As a biologist keeping a simple freshwater aquarium should be as simple as 2 + 2.....

-john

Well I have read a number of reputable sites claiming the average size of discus in the wild is 5-6". If that is wrong, please inform the collectors, the biologists and the local ecologists that their measuring tapes need to be adjusted. Please note that it is only an average and not the full potential you are speaking of. I do understand discus can reach larger sizes in the wild, but it is far more uncommon than any discus (wild or domestic bred) that is raised in a well maintained tank.

I understand there is a social hierarchy in discus societies. However, it's also true that in large enough numbers (it seems to be debated whether that number is 10+ or 15+), there isn't really a "low man on the totem pole". My goal is to shoot for the biggest tank I can get without being more than 125-150 gallons. With such a tank, I could keep 10 adult discus comfortably. And you also stated that getting discus to 6" should be no problem if purchased from a reputable source (I stated earlier I intend to use Hans of Discus Hans and I think many would agree he is reputable), so I theoretically should be able to achieve 6" on even the lowest member of the pecking order.

I love that you begin with "I am sure you're a great guy" right before you insult me numerous times. I don't believe I have said anything that would cause someone new to make a mistake, especially since I have openly admitted that I am no expect in freshwater fish care, especially discus care.

All I came here for was to pitch my idea to the discus experts and get a "yes" or "no" answer as to whether it would work and maybe a few pointers on how to improve my idea. I haven't gotten a straight answer yet, nor do I think I would even get one at this point. Instead, I think I found a few of the elitists trolling the beginner section to gain some brown nosers. Sadly, I don't bow down to anyone with a "holier than thou", passive aggressive manner of talking down to people.

That being said, I don't think this is the place for me to get my information. I do appreciate the kind assistance some of you have given and I wish all of you good luck in your future discus endeavors.

Admins, please feel free to close this thread.

[John_Nicholson]

LOL.

-john

[8ftbed]

Yeah, the good ole boy network is alive and well.

[lipadj46]

You stick around long enough you'll become one of us too.

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

[John_Nicholson]

Yeah, the good ole boy network is alive and well.

Still not sure what I said that was so offensive....I told him what the time proven method is, told him to raise his however he wanted to, asked him to provide updates, invited him to the huge NADA show, and called him a nice guy......so did I post that was so harsh?

-john

[PP_GBR]

Thanks all you guys for a good read.

Figment,

When you buy fish, always buy 1 extra fish.