My Adult Discus are dying! please help!

[discusmat]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
2 of my adult discus are sick. i noticed about a week ago. I made the fatal mistake of buying some tetras from LFS. My wife just had to have them.
I did not QT them I jst threw em in.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
Sysmtoms are they are dark,not eating, flashing,darting, not headstanding but more side lying at the top of tank.



3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
I have done water changes of 50% every other day. I have only medicated with API General Cure.
only first dose administered yesterday.



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
85t gal tank, my current stock is
> 20-tetras
> 3-3’ discus
> 1-4’ discus
> 2-6’ discus
> so 6 discus and 20 tetras.



5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
50% every other day


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
established tank,has been running for 5yrs now. gravel bottom about 3'


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
just use tap water treated with amquil and aqua nova


8. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp __86___

- ph _7.5____

- ammonia reading __0__

- nitrite reading __0__

- nitrate reading _40ppm___

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water ____

- RO water ____


9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
yes new tetras,one wysteria plant.


10. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

[blueluv]

Your nitrates are high. How long do they stay at that number. 50% water changes is not enough for your little guys.

[discusmat]

well after using the general cure they seem to be doing ok.
today is the first day my big turq went swimming and lightened up and actualy spread his fins for a bit.
i know i'm not out of the woods yet, but i will say being a new member here i am a little disapointed
at the lack of help. I have spent hrs on this website reading as much as I can. I am not new to discus at all but I don't think I know it all
either. I am a firm believer that knowledge is power.these are amazing and beautiful,and one of God's finest.So I will keep reading
and maybe figure out how to use this website and make some discus friends.

[PP_GBR]

Could you post a pix of your tank and the sick fish? What kind of equipment do you have in the tank? Keep posting until you reach 10 posts for pix.

[discusmat]

i run 2 canister filters each rated at 75gal. inline heater,uv sterilzer. 12' bubble stone powered by a big pump.
all plastic plants execpt for the wysteria i purchased for overhead cover.

[trungnguyen]

Increase temp up to 88-90 when you do the treatment. If you can, do 50-70% water change everyday during this time to lower the nitrate (I know you use tap water, so there is always some nitrate in your tank, but not that high). Try to vacuum the gravel as much as you can, because your tank has been for years, so maybe there would be so many stuffs and left over food down there. Also add some salt when you do water change. If you have some photos, that would help. Keep us posts. Good luck.

[PP_GBR]

You need to clean your canisters, 1 @ a time, all the equipment in the tank.

[discusmat]

cleaned my cans about 2 weeks ago.i do clean regularly and vacume with every water change.

[PP_GBR]

What are you feeding your fish? Did you see lots of gunk in the canisters?

[discusmat]

i feed hikari bio pure frozen bloodworms, tetra color bits,tetra color flakes. and my cans are not overly dirty. i clean them about every 3-4months

[JERRYKEVIN]

Your Nitrate is very high

[discusmat]

yes i know but! i do regular water changes, my amonia is always 0 my nitrites are always 0
i know nitrates play a roll but am causing a lot of it myself. as we know it's the end result of good filtration. i have had fish for many years at this house
using only tap water, i don't age it i don't use RO water. this has never been an issue. yes my readings are high but they do go down. i mean it'a high nitrate just coming from the tap. my discus have always thrived in my tank. i think i either got ich or gill flukes from the tetras or the wysteria.

[YSS]

Keep up with your water changes and let us know how they are doing. Good luck! What makes you think your fish have ich or gill flukes? Any visible signs? Often, people mis-diagnose and treat fish for wrong disease which is not helpful for the sick fish.

[mee]

I think a shot of your tank would be helpful. It could be old tank syndrome, or overfeeding. If your nitrates are already that high, it is likely the 20? new tetras tipped the discus over their threshold by creating a spike.

[Crunchy]

I think a shot of your tank would be helpful. It could be old tank syndrome, or overfeeding. If your nitrates are already that high, it is likely the 20? new tetras tipped the discus over their threshold by creating a spike.

what is old tank syndrome? will nitrates go up after many years of using gravel?

[troysdiiscus]

I never liked using gravel for several reasons....they collect alot of waste and left over food no matter how much you vaccum or even if you use and under ground filter system. That is a main cause for bad water and ammonia, nitrate spikes..NEVER been a fan..
Up WC like mentioned, ich will not survive in higher temps, if thats what it is, have my doubts that its ich..

[PP_GBR]

How is the fish doing now? Are you still treating him with GC?

[PP_GBR]

Even before I started with discus, all my tanks are BB. lol. I don't like to clean the gravels. Cleaning the tanks and wc are more than enough work for me let alone scrubbing all the slime coat from the glass wall/equipment.

[discusmat]

Ok not to bag on anyone here at all but!
bare bottom tanks are not for me at all. I believe this beautiful fish needs to be displayed like the King they are.
To me bare bottom makes sense for a steril tank, but I don't want my discus like that.I know I will hear a lot of flak but!
that's just not discus keeping to me. People with fish rooms and all that is great if that's what your into, but to me locking your beautiful fish in a room with just a glass
bare bottom tank or tanks is not for me.I am not into breeding at all I leave that to the experts. I just like to get beautiful fish and enjoy them to fullest.
Anytime I see pics if Discus in a bare bottom tank, they are always on the bottom looking so sad. Like at trade shows and such.

[discusmat]

Today everyone is up and bright and swimming. I am getting another dose of meds today cause I am gonna repeat the treatment again.
Big blue is still not eating yet but he is looking good.

[discusmat]

i can't figure out how to upload a pic? I have enough post right?

[mee]

what is old tank syndrome? will nitrates go up after many years of using gravel?

In short yes. I forgot the technical stuff, but in simple terms a tank that has been up and running for years can reach a toxic state where it needs to be completely cleaned out and started over with fresh materials.

[mee]

@discusmat I understand your feelings about substrate, but sand is a much better option than gravel. Easier to stir up to keep toxic gasses from building up. Some sands even help maintain constant PH and keep nitrates down. Easier to clean than gravel too, and almost never clogs a python like gravel can. Some cichlids truly love digging and playing in substrate, but I haven't seen it from Discus yet (I am a noob though).

[discusmat]

am i not able to post a pic from my pc?

[mee]

I believe you have to first upload it to an image server like imashack.us or photobucket.com. From there you can get a very simple "Share image" code to copy and paste into this forum.

[discusmat]

i was reading another guys thread and he said that the administrators had to give permissions in order to upload image from your pc.
i would much rather do that.

[PP_GBR]

I always upload the pix via imageshack and copy the codes here.

[PP_GBR]

Mee

I fully understand what you meant. I just took a tank down, PP, then moved the tank to the patio and bleached it. Let the sun beat on it until I could not smell the bleach then scrub it and rinse it well. The tank now looked like new again. Do you think I'd have new tank syndrome now? j/k

[discusmat]

yes i do love tanks that have the sand. it is a great look but i just don't want to put them thru that.

[GrayLadyPat]

About the substrate...

What I did was to change over my gravel to sand. I did not do it all at one time, tho. For a while, I had "combination" substrate, with sand in places, and gravel in others. Every time I did a water change, I took a slotted spoon and took out some more gravel, sifting for the sand, until I have about 90% sand now. The only gravel I have is on one end to help hold down a wayward bubble wand. I also put my plants into clay pots, and I move them around from time to time. The fish don't mind, and within about 15 minutes of closing the lid after a wc, they're out and about looking for a hand out, even if I have completely rearranged the tank.

So, what I am saying is that it is possible to change over the substrate without completely taking down the tank. It might be a way for you to do so.

Also, I got a shiney new UV setup that helps keep the nasties down a bit (in my opinion) and makes my water crystal clear.

I wish you the best in whatever you decide to do, but if you stay with full gravel, make sure it's not very deep.

Cheers!

[discusmat]

That is a great way of doing it.is there a recommended sand to use?

[blueluv]

I'm glad you agree to change your substrate to sand. Your first post said that you have about 3 inches of gravel... that's a lot. As mentioned before, that can harbor some nasties. Anyways, how are your discus doing so far? Are you able to post pics?

[discusmat]

yes gravel is at 3' I just a 75% water change and gonna wait a bit and then retreat them again.
no i thought it was an easy browse and post. i don't want to to have to go to some website join and go thru that just to post pics.
I know they help with the issue but there has to be a better way.

[GrayLadyPat]

Hi again!

I have used both play sand (like you would get at a local home improvement store to put in a child's sandbox) and pool filter sand, which is what I have now. The play sand is larger diameter, but the pool filter is much more consistent. Pool sand tends to be lighter, so your vacuuming will pick it up more readily. Pool sand is also a bit lighter in color. Either way you go, it is so very much easier to clean than gravel that I wouldn't be surprised if one would put it into all their tanks, not just discus.

For myself, I prefer the pool filter sand. It's relatively cheap, only about 12 bucks US here for 50 pounds. My substrate averages only about an inch thick, although it is thinner in places and thicker in others.

One thing, though... either way you go, rinse thoroughly before use. Both types can be pretty dusty.

As far as posting pictures, I prefer photobucket, because I can upload my whole library if I want, and then pick and choose which ones I want to post :D

Good luck!

[discusmat]

Thank you GrayLadyPat, I will look into the pool filter sand. do they have it at home depot or do i go to a pool supply?

[blueluv]

Thank you GrayLadyPat, I will look into the pool filter sand. do they have it at home depot or do i go to a pool supply?

You can try a swimming pool supply store

[discusmat]

Thanks Blueluv

[mee]

If you have the money and like dark substrate, carribsea makes tahitian moon and it is gorgeous. Think deep black with a moon like shimmer. It's about $20 or $30 a bag though, but requires much much much less cleaning before use play sand. Pool sand is quite a bit cleaner than play sand. Then there is oolite from carrbisea and all their other white sands, mixed sands, etc.. The oolite if I am remembering that name correctly is really nice stuff, but with discus you want to get one of the bigger grains as the "Sugar" grain will stick to their slime coat allot. The white sands are gorgeous though too. I have used play sand and pool sand, both look decent too, and on a budget pool sand can't be beat. Finally, I used to live near a fish shop with crushed garnet sand. It was a light natural looking purple. Not overwhelmingly purple mind you, but very beautiful and similar to tahitian moon in texture.

[discusmat]

I see some folks advising raising temps to 90 for white poo and stuff but, doesn't this promote bacteria growth? they say raise the temp 90 and use metro,
Is this correct?

[PP_GBR]

Yes, when you treat fish with metro, temp should be @ 90F. I have a fish not eating since Mar-18, his tank is @ 90F and he is alive and swimming but not eating LOL.

If you have to treat your fish, just follow your mentor's advise.

[discusmat]

I have been using API General cure and it has metro/prazi but nowhere did it say to raise the temp.
That's why i was asking because i read that in other post to raise temp. so using general cure should I raise the temp?

[blueluv]

You raise the temp when using pure metro.

[blueluv]

Yes, when you treat fish with metro, temp should be @ 90F. I have a fish not eating since Mar-18, his tank is @ 90F and he is alive and swimming but not eating LOL.

If you have to treat your fish, just follow your mentor's advise.

That discus is still alive! ? Is the forehead pinched on the sides?

[discusmat]

no no head pinch at all. i got pics but i don't want to go thru the hole url thing.

[blueluv]

I'm not sure what you mean by the whole url thing.? If you post a pic of your discus, someone with good experience may assist you and help with your issue. A picture Is always better to help diagnose the problem.

[PP_GBR]

Chris:

No, not yet but sharp forehead. His health is declined. I think he'll go soon. My other BD, died on June 12 and she had pinched forehead.

[mee]

Your tank looks very nice with the white sand. I do think you are overthinking the imageshack thing. It is very simple, no banners or ads like on youtube, and the only email I have gotten from them in the last 5 years was to let me know they are upgrading the usability. Also when you use imageshack to link people to your photos from somewhere like facebook, you are not giving your photos to facebook to use for anything like you are now if you post pics directly to facebook. In otherwords, imageshack good. facebook, not so much.

[discusmat]

not sure if this is my thread anymore?

[CichlidMomma]

I had 3" of gravel as well on the bottom of my tank and had nothing but problems. I blamed the blue lobster, an aggressive angelfish, new tetras and everything BUT the gravel (it couldn't be that! thats too easy!) ... as someone here suggested (Hans), I ditched the gravel and bought pool filter sand. The change in my fish and water quality is HUGE. It was a chore to drain the tank and switch it out but the stress on the fish was A LOT less than allowing them to remain in that mess.

Also, I'm new here too (not new to fish) and sometimes feel like the folks here are a little elitist and set in their ways. Just remember, most of the 'old-timers' have seen this over and over again and probably get a little frustrated with our lack of experience. They definitely know what they are talking about though so hang in there! I hope you are able to post pics soon! Good luck!

[discusmat]

Thank you Momma, I am going to do the switch but I am gonna try like what was suggested and just do a lil bit with every
water change. I think this will work best for fish stress ya know.And yes same here I have been doing this a long time as well but I am not
in the league of most of the guru's. I have never really got into tropical fish as a hobby. I got hooked up with the great Jack Wattley
in the late 80's and have just had discus since then.Never into breeding, just admiring!!!

[CichlidMomma]

I considered doing a little at a time but I was concerned about releasing harmful gasses from the gravel, even a little at time... sounded like a long slow poisoning to me so I opted for the tear down.. get 'er done method. I'm glad I did, there have been drastic changes for the better in my survivors since.

Today I added some corys to help with sand clean up... they are awesome! I've never had them before, they remind me of Dr. Seuss characters. I found a couple gold/greens and an orange laser cory plus a few 'regular' bronzes. All of their scrambling for food motivated my blue turq to become a lot more interested in eating, he's chomping like a pig and chasing the corys around. I could watch these guys all night. =)