Stendker way of water changes??? No aging water?

[freude88]

I was just wondering if anyone knew why on Stender's website his water change directions do not have you age your water. I was also wondering about his use of cold water? He says it's about the copper in the pipes but I wonder if that applies to us in the U.S. (I am not a plumber). I am always learning and would love to know about this.

Thanks,

Joy

[John_Nicholson]

Not everyone has to age their water. It depends on the source water. I have never used hot water for my changes. Water heater are known to get full of heavy metals.

-john

[freude88]

Wow... I have always heated my water but in my aging barrel. I guess it would save on electrical costs not too. I clicked on the NADA link but I just got their main page. Could you give me some direction on where I need to go to find the information to see if I need to age my water?

[John_Nicholson]

No one can tell you . You are going to have to figure it out on your own. Check the ph right out of the tap and then again in 24 hours. If it changes a lot then I would age it. Also in some colder climates it is bad to get micro bubbles in winter.

-john

[freude88]

Awesome I will check it. I didn't know it was that simple. Thanks for the help!

[Eddie]

No one can tell you . You are going to have to figure it out on your own. Check the ph right out of the tap and then again in 24 hours. If it changes a lot then I would age it. Also in some colder climates it is bad to get micro bubbles in winter.

-john

I get micro bubbles regardless of climate, heat, cold...doesn't matter.

[abuckley75]

Fill a 5 gallon bucket with tap water and test PH. Add air stone and test 24 hrs later. If the PH swings more than .5 you need to age the water.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

[Eddie]

Fill a 5 gallon bucket with tap water and test PH. Add air stone and test 24 hrs later. If the PH swings more than .5 you need to age the water.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

My PH doesn't change at all, I still have to age. ;)

[George001]

Eddie,
Just curious if ph is stable why do you age your water?

George

[Eddie]

Eddie,
Just curious if ph is stable why do you age your water?

George

Micro-bubbles, causes my fish to shed slimecoat.

[Elliots]

I do not speak German and the Stendker site is translated perhaps incorrectly. Hans, what is the true story?

[mmorris]

I don't have to age my water, fortunately, but I always make sure the water going into the tank is within a degree of the tank water.

[Elliots]

I do not age my water. I have irregular tap water temps so I check the temp every 3-5 minutes. I try to stay within 2 degrees. I also check the pH and try to stay within .4 pH. If the difference is more than .4 I change less water!!

[John_Nicholson]

I watched Jm Quarles run 66 degree water in his tanks...the tanks had heaters so they warmed up quick enough. In fact one of the best way to get a pair to spawn is to hit them with a big WC with water at least 10 degrees cooler.

-john

[freude88]

Good stuff! I went out of cell range for s day and came back to some more great info... I love this hobby. I can't wait to check into this a bit more.

[Cosgrovb]

50 percent changes?


I watched Jm Quarles run 66 degree water in his tanks...the tanks had heaters so they warmed up quick enough. In fact one of the best way to get a pair to spawn is to hit them with a big WC with water at least 10 degrees cooler.

-john

P

[freude88]

So I checked my ph with an API test and something seems off. My barrel where I age my water is 8.2 but my aquarium is 8.0. Shouldn't they be the same? I went out of town and have not done a WC in two days so the water has had plenty of time to age. I also tested my tap and it looked like it measured an 8.0 so I shouldn't have to age my water. That being said the 8.0 I measured from my aquarium and the 8.0 I measured from my tap looked just slightly different. I guess my next question is... Does API make a good PH test? If not who does? Should I expect that the test colors would be slightly different from my aquarium even though the PH is the same? I hope I am not confusing.....

[Eddie]

So I checked my ph with an API test and something seems off. My barrel where I age my water is 8.2 but my aquarium is 8.0. Shouldn't they be the same? I went out of town and have not done a WC in two days so the water has had plenty of time to age. I also tested my tap and it looked like it measured an 8.0 so I shouldn't have to age my water. That being said the 8.0 I measured from my aquarium and the 8.0 I measured from my tap looked just slightly different. I guess my next question is... Does API make a good PH test? If not who does? Should I expect that the test colors would be slightly different from my aquarium even though the PH is the same? I hope I am not confusing.....

Nitrification in your tank can cause PH to decrease. There is nothing wrong and you can do a water change just fine since the aging barrel PH is higher. .2 is nothing for going up in PH.

[freude88]

Awesome! Not having to age my water will certainly save some time. One last question... I imagine I need to buy some type of shower head fixture to attach to my hose to release the gas from the water before it hits the tank??

[John_Nicholson]

Yep.

-john


50 percent changes?



P

[freude88]

Thanks!

[aalbina]

Probably not - if you're not getting microbubbles now, I wouldn't bother. The water in your tank will tend toward more acidic over time with living things in it as more hydrogen is bound up chemically (basically just what Eddie said; the natural effect of the nitrogen cycle)- that will explain your difference in tap and tank. .2 isn't something I would worry about.

Adam


Awesome! Not having to age my water will certainly save some time. One last question... I imagine I need to buy some type of shower head fixture to attach to my hose to release the gas from the water before it hits the tank??

[freude88]

So to clarify I don't need to use a shower head unless I am getting micro bubbles?

[Skip]

So to clarify I don't need to use a shower head unless I am getting micro bubbles?

do you know what microbubbles look like?? you didn't mention you had them.. i only see them in winter.. never summer months.. in texas..

ps.. it looks like.. you have smoke coming out of your water hose INSIDE The tank.. underwater.. thats microbubbles.. if you don't see it.. don't worry about..

pss.. i only go straight tap.. don't have room for storage/age

[freude88]

No I've never seen that, but now I know what to look for, thanks so much! I will skip the aging since my tap ph doesn't fluctuate. I will just ad Prime to my tank right before I add the water back in. Sometimes I tend to make things too complicated when I don't have to! This forum is awesome!

[aalbina]

Sounds great - make sure you add the proper amount of prime based on whether you have chloramine in your water or not (your water company can tell you). The directions for dosage are on the bottle for water with chlorine and water with chloramine - the dosage is different. It's also different based on temperature of the water. Finally, I always dose for the full volume of the tank regardless of how much water I am changing (as it says on the label as well). There have been some conflicts here over that one - but I trust SeaChem more than those folks here have opposed that particular dosing instruction on the bottle as a marketing gimmick.

Adam

.
No I've never seen that, but now I know what to look for, thanks so much! I will skip the aging since my tap ph doesn't fluctuate. I will just ad Prime to my tank right before I add the water back in. Sometimes I tend to make things too complicated when I don't have to! This forum is awesome!

[8ftbed]

Well this has been an interesting thread considering the level of expertise that says they do not try to match temps during water changes. Interesting and also throws a monkey wrench in my entrenched thinking.

Is it because of the size of the tank (volume of water) that you're dealing with that a marked difference between tap and tank is no issue?

One of the things I stubbed my toe on is the standard advice everywhere to float a bag of fish for 30 minutes in the tank to let the temp match up. That and/or drip tank water into the bag which would be for pH and temp match both.

The possibility of a water heater contributing rust or other stuff during a change has crossed my mind before. I've wondered sometimes if that may be the root of the problem some people have... an old heater with rusted cathodes.

Based on the new (to me) news of not matching tap temp to tank, I'm wondering if this may not be a one size fits all procedure, depending on the part of the country and temp of your water out of the tap. Up here in the northern latitudes, that tap water can be down right cold in the winter.

fwiw, when I did 50% changes this morning, I only adjusted the tap to the mid 70's. I couldn't quite bring myself to just run cold water in. :) I'm going to run it over a thermometer later and see just what my "cold" water comes out as.

Answers/enlightenment would be appreciated. I'm just dissecting the possibility.

Oh yeah, one other thought I've always had is that when using a mix of water from the tap, it's basically partially aged since the hot water mixed in has been sitting in the tank and the heat circulates it. I'd think most if not all of the chlorine has off gassed by the time I use it since the water heater doesn't see a lot of use in a single and none house.

[freude88]

The more and more I research and try things out I find that keeping things simple and go to the experts (going to Stendkers website for my situation) is where you will find the answers. It is also good to get an opinion or two on the forum next from people who have done it. (It always makes me a little more comfortable).

As far as temperature when acclimating a new fish? My guess is anything you can do to lessen the stress is good. I do know that slowly acclimating them to ph is more important. They will by far have more stress or death if this is not
accomplished.

If I had super cold water that would definitely be something to consider... Mine doesn't get that cold. When is cold too cold? It's a good question. One thing that just came to mind is do more small water changes as to not change the temp dramatically if this is a concern.

Interesting thought on the water tank partially aging the water... I wish I had an answer,... Anyone?

[William Palumbo]

When I lived in Chicago, I would just use my Python hose to fill the tanks. My water temp. was mixed at the sink by "feel". I never ran straight cold water in the tanks...knowingly. I would use up my hot water during wc's, so when that happened, I stopped and waited for the tank to re-heat. Breeder pairs would get changed with RO water stored in a barrel just room temp., and in Chicago, that was cold most times. Not sure about a water heater gassing off Chlorine. Throw in Chloramine, and that's not even possible...Bill

[Baygon]

Micro-bubbles, causes my fish to shed slimecoat.

Hi Eddie I have a question regarding micro bubbles whether it is harmful or not because I have a bubble wand and my discus always swim on top of it and bubbles tend to stick on their fins and bodies.

Should I remove then?


Regards,
Byron

[Skip]

Hi Eddie I have a question regarding micro bubbles whether it is harmful or not because I have a bubble wand and my discus always swim on top of it and bubbles tend to stick on their fins and bodies.

Should I remove then?


Regards,
Byron

microbubbles are not just regular bubbles cause by air flowing from underwater to up..

its is REALLY SMALL BUBBLES.. like i posted earlier.. it looks like SMOKE coming out of your water hose when filling up after waterchange.. so, bubble wand is safe

[Elliots]

Byron, a bubble wand is bubbles not microbubbles. It is always good to ask a question if you are not sure. I do not have microbubbles but I have read they can destroy the Discus' natural slime coat. Do not worry about bubbles.

[Skip]

Byron, a bubble wand is bubbles not microbubbles. It is always good to ask a question if you are not sure. I do not have microbubbles but I have read they can destroy the Discus' natural slime coat. Do not worry about bubbles.

yes, it does.. but next morning they are good :)

[Northwoods Discus]

Micro bubbles are the gasses that are dissolved in solution in the cold pressurized water. As the water is depressurized coming out of the pipes the gasses come out of solution. Primarily CO2. The gasses in solution in non aged water are taken into the fish via the gills and then expand inside the fish. Like the bends of a deep sea diver. Water in a water heater does not off gas because it is still under pressure. It may "age" quicker than cold water once out of the pipe. This is why you age water, it allows dissolved gas to escape the water before fish "breathe" it into there systems. It also allows CO2 levels to stabilize so Ph is stable. Every ones water will be different depending on the amount of dissolved gas and of course mineral content.

[Baygon]

Thanks guys, I got worried after reading micro-bubbles and remembering seeing bubbles sticking on my discus lol...

[Eddie]

microbubbles are not just regular bubbles cause by air flowing from underwater to up..

its is REALLY SMALL BUBBLES.. like i posted earlier.. it looks like SMOKE coming out of your water hose when filling up after waterchange.. so, bubble wand is safe

What he said. lol

[Baygon]

microbubbles are not just regular bubbles cause by air flowing from underwater to up..

its is REALLY SMALL BUBBLES.. like i posted earlier.. it looks like SMOKE coming out of your water hose when filling up after waterchange.. so, bubble wand is safe

Lol thanks...! Btw lately my fluval 306 is producing much mini bubbles I would like to confirm they are not "micro".
http://imageshack.us/scaled/modthumb/854/hlqr.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/854/hlqr.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
http://imageshack.us/scaled/modthumb/845/2x1w.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/2x1w.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Skip]

Ok.. let me say it again..for a third time another way.

Microbubbles will only happen when water cones Straight fron tap and gases expand. .. not caused by filters or bubble wands

[Baygon]

Ok.. let me say it again..for a third time another way.

Microbubbles will only happen when water cones Straight fron tap and gases expand. .. not caused by filters or bubble wands

Thank you for taking your time and patience warlock4169. You could be a great teacher.

God speed.

[Skip]

Thank you for taking your time and patience warlock4169. You could be a great teacher.

God speed.

I was a teacher for eight years.. lol

Ps.. I did not know they were either until I saw them. Then I knew..

[Baygon]

LOL

[musicmarn1]

Ahhh , so i have that cloudy look coming out of the tap (if i HAVE to do a water change from my well water tap, with warm water from the tap i add air stones or else they come to the top looking for air) in the tank, also i go from 7.6 out of the tap to 8.2 in the tank so thats a .6 change. HOWEVER i am now struggling to find places for the winter aging barrels now its getting colder already at night im seeing it take most of the day to warm up the water again for WC . sheesh i may have to use the new tank i bought just for water changes :( 250g looks better in the house than a bunch of aging barrels lol, or one big one and one medium one is what i need for both discus tanks. i am doing 90% daily once a day on both discus tanks. smallest discus almost 3".

hmm i just need to insulate my porch and turn it into a fish room and have done with it !


do you know what microbubbles look like?? you didn't mention you had them.. i only see them in winter.. never summer months.. in texas..

ps.. it looks like.. you have smoke coming out of your water hose INSIDE The tank.. underwater.. thats microbubbles.. if you don't see it.. don't worry about..

pss.. i only go straight tap.. don't have room for storage/age

[MSD]

Funny question. anecdote about the hot water. When I first looked into keeping discus I actually bought my first batch from Jack Wattley from the ad in TFH. Being a nut I called him and asked all kinds of questions about keeping them. We chatted about 20 mins and when he was telling me about water changes I asked should I mix the hot and cold due to what I had read. He told me sure, the hot water is good as it has a lot of dissolved minerals in it, LOL. He also told me if I was eating a sandwich while watching the fish just break off a piece and throw it in the tank, like if I was eating peanut butter! Anyone else talk to Jack back then and get these kinds of answers from him? Oh, the fish I got from him were $10 a piece, the size of a dime or less, and I killed them in about two weeks.

[450rdawg]

I personally age my water. Problem is, I don't have enough to do as many water changes as I'd like to do so I mix about 80/20 aged/tap and it works fine. I tend to get the bubbles that stick to the inside of my glass, only from the tap level up. This leads me to believe that there are still gasses in the water, no matter if you see "microbubbles" or not. I started using a pair of dress socks, think they are a nylon material, to cover the end of my hose. I put both socks on and tighten them around the hose. Believe it or not, this helps tremendously. Not only does it help but makes your hose look flashy and i believe most of us could benefit from a flashier hose;) Just my $.02.

[musicmarn1]

haha awesome idea !! until i bring my aging barrels in the house....:argue:.........this is a brilliant idea for me to be able to do more changes !!




I personally age my water. Problem is, I don't have enough to do as many water changes as I'd like to do so I mix about 80/20 aged/tap and it works fine. I tend to get the bubbles that stick to the inside of my glass, only from the tap level up. This leads me to believe that there are still gasses in the water, no matter if you see "microbubbles" or not. I started using a pair of dress socks, think they are a nylon material, to cover the end of my hose. I put both socks on and tighten them around the hose. Believe it or not, this helps tremendously. Not only does it help but makes your hose look flashy and i believe most of us could benefit from a flashier hose;) Just my $.02.

[PP_GBR]

Stendker Hatchery

http://www.diskuszucht-stendker.de/pdf.php?path=../upload/presse/7_1.pdf

[Tony C]

Great read, interesting that they manage to grow such great fish in crowded tanks with minimal water changes. :confused:

[DiscusLoverJeff]

How to you create a paste like that that won't cloud the tank, Lol. Good read.

[Second Hand Pat]

Actually the juvies have a continuous drip where the full volume is changed out every 20 minutes..


Each aquarium also
has an overflow pipe, which is affixed to
the back of the aquarium with adhesive.
This overflow pipe only extends slightly
over the aquarium’s edge and the water
simply runs off, down into a large filtration
aquarium. Thanks to this system, the
water in the small aquariums, used
to rear the juvenile fish, is exchanged
approximately once every 20 minutes.
This rapid rate of water renewal is very
advantageous for the little discus fish
and they thrive accordingly and grow
quickly

[Tony C]

Actually the juvies have a continuous drip where the full volume is changed out every 20 minutes..

If you continue to read, it explains that the water is recirculated through the filter system, not changed.


In fact, filtration is generally a
very important factor for the hatchery. In
this regard, German hatcheries are at
a big disadvantage compared to Asian
hatcheries. For one thing, all of the
hatchery’s water needs to be heated to
tropical temperatures – and that is a vast
amount of water. Also, the water needs
to be reused for as long as possible.
Many Asian hatcheries simply dispose of
up to 90 % of their water, when carrying
out water changes, replacing it with
fresh tap water. This lavish approach
to water usage is no longer sustainable
in Europe.

Certainly not an approach I would try to replicate at home, but it seems to be working for Stendker somehow.

[Second Hand Pat]

Yes, they have to filter, recycle their water but certainly have it down to a fine art so I would not equate it to "minimal water changes"...just MHO. :)