Water Changes

[afriend]

I wanted to post on the thread below about water changes, but it seams that the subject got changed somewhat. So I thought that I would start a new one instead.

The main purpose of making water changes (automated or manual) is to reduce the organic compounds that result from uneaten fish food and fish poop. There is another method available to do this which will greatly reduce organic compounds: an absorbent called Purigen, which is produced by SeaChem. I've been experimenting with Purigen for sometime now, and have used it in my filtration system for a few months. I am truly amazed at the difference it has made in the quality of my tank water.

In the beginning, I placed the 100ml SeaChem bags into my canister filtration system. The results, while encouraging, were not dramatic. Then I began a search on the internet to determine how others used the product and the results they obtained. Some loved the product, and others called it a waste of money. I suspected that this wide difference of opinion was due to how the water flowed thru the Purigen beads. I also read up on using Purigen in a reactor. I discovered that there was no commercially available reactor on the market that was suited for Purigen. So then I decided to design and build my own reactor.

I have a 100g tank with 10 adult discus. It has an automated water exchange system which replaces 40% daily. My feeding schedule is 6 times daily. Before using my Purigen reactor, I had to syphon clean the tank bottom, and wipe slime off the glass two or three times weekly.

Sooooo......here's the results. Click on the link below to view four pictures. The first shows my complete water filtration system, consisting of a pump, a pleated mechanical filter, Purigen reactor, and bio-filter. The second is a closeup of the Purigen reactor. Pictures three and four show the bare bottom of my tank. Be sure to examine these last two pictures closely. Notice how little slime there is on the tank bottom and how little fish poop there is. (After getting to the Photobucket website, click again on any one of the pictures to enlarge the picture.)

http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/pscramer/library/100g%20Discus%20Tank%20with%20Filtration%20System/Purigen%20benefits

The two pictures showing the tank bottom were taken without any cleaning or syphoning of the tank bottom for three weeks. There is so little slime on the glass that cleanling it is totally unnecessary. What little fish poop is there is fresh, and has not had time to dissolve. It takes a few hours for the fish poop to dissolve, so there is always a little. The way that Purigen removes fish poop is this: Purigen is so effective of striping organic compounds that fish poop easily dissolves in the water where it is carried to the Purigen reactor and is absorbed.

My Purigen reactor has 250ml of Purigen. I service it once a month. Since Purigen can be regenerated and reused a few times, the cost for the Purigen is between $1.50 and $3.00 per month, depending on how many times I regenerate it and the source that I buy it from. The materials for the reactor cost about $175.

There are other important benefits of Purigen, and I would be glad to discuss these if anyone is interested.

I am convinced that Purigen (or something better that might come along) will eventually change the way water filtration is accomplished for the discus tank, especially when someone comes up with a good Purigin reactor available for the market. In the mean time, the only way I know of to get really great results using Purigen is with a properly designed custom reactor.

Paul

[Gene]

That sounds too good to be true. But then again, the world used to be flat... It's hard to change what is tried and true, but if it works for you then stick to your guns! I'll have to give it a shot one day.

[yim11]

Very nice. You mentioned 6 feedings a day, what are you feeding? I'm not sold on Purigen but this seems to be working well for adult fish.

[dkeef]

This is good info. Thanks paul.
I may incorporate purigen into auto wc system like yours.
Would using phosban reactor for purigen work also?

[littleyellow]

I have built a simple CO2 reactor before which is just an air stone in a 2' section for 2" PVC and am comfortable working with the plastics so I just have a few questions on the design. In looking at the pictures, it looks like the water flows in thru the center pipe and through the sediment filter and is then pushed through the purigen to the return that is at the bottom. What, if any, block are you using at the base of the filter on the inflow pipe that separates it from the return line? Or is there no divider and because the outlet pipe is smaller, it makes some of the water recirculate back through the purigen before returning?


I would also assume that the product would not work as well if the beads were circulating instead of a thick, stationary layer that you currently have.

As a DIY junkie, this is like being handed a bottle of Oxy :D

[afriend]

That sounds too good to be true. But then again, the world used to be flat... It's hard to change what is tried and true, but if it works for you then stick to your guns! I'll have to give it a shot one day.

Gene,

I understand your view that it sounds too good to be true. After posting on this subject before, I know that there are others (perhaps many others) that share your skepticism. Especially with all the disinformation that one can encounter on the internet these days.

What I'm claiming is that the use of my Purigen reactor allows me to go an entire month without having to syphon off the bottom of the tank or wipe slime off the glass, and at the end of the month have a nice clean tank (not exactly spotless because I still have to service the reactor, the mechanical filter, and do some minor tank cleaning at the end of the month). I absolutely assure you that this claim is true, providing that the conditions as I specified exist: 250ml of Purigen in a reactor capable of fluidizing the Purigen beads, in a 100g tank with 10 adult discus and 40% daily water exchange. The pictures presented in my post showing the tank bottom are a true representation of the actual condition existing 3 weeks with no cleaning whatsoever.

Paul

[afriend]

Very nice. You mentioned 6 feedings a day, what are you feeding? I'm not sold on Purigen but this seems to be working well for adult fish.

I'm feeding my fish the following foods: Tetra Color Tropical Granules, frozen blood worms, frozen Feeding Frenzy, freeze dried blood worms soaked in garlic, and freeze dried black worms soaked in garlic.

This brings up an important consideration regarding the results I obtained with the Purigen reactor. When carefully examining the pictures of the tank bottom, there is no apparent uneaten food. I don't know for sure if this is because it dissolves along with the fish poop, or that the fish eat it all. One of the results that I observed after I started using Purigen is that the fish are much more aggressive at attacking the food. So I don't know if the uneaten food dissolves, or maybe that the fish do a better job of searching the tank and eating it all.

The other thing that I don't know is if Purigen will keep the tank as clean if I were to use a different food (beef heart for example).

Paul

[mjb18]

Paul -

I use Purigen and have seen some good effects by placing a bag in my HOB filter (on the top layer) or in a canister. As you state, they are not as dramatic and I have nothing scientific to share, but I am convinced it makes a difference.

Do you have a post or blog entry on how you built such a reactor? Also, after you regen your Purigen, do you keep it "wet" or allow it to dry out while waiting to use it again?

Thanks,
Mike

[afriend]

This is good info. Thanks paul.
I may incorporate purigen into auto wc system like yours.
Would using phosban reactor for purigen work also?

I don't know for sure if a phosban reactor will, or could be adapted to work with Purigen. Before building my own reactor, I looked at the phosban reactor and decided not to try it. After going thru the learning process of building the reactor shown in the pictures, I'm glad I didn't try it, and I'll explain why.

The Purigen beads are quite small (about 30/1000 of an inch in diameter). They are also just SLIGHTLY more dense than water, in fact some will actually float. These two characteristics of Purigen are very important considerations in designing a Purigen reactor. It took me several attempts and design changes before I could build one that would work well. Please refer to the close-up picture of my reactor provided in the link above as I explain the following.

The reactor must provide a slow (about 0.5 gallon per minute) of water flow up thru the beads. If the flow rate is too fast or uneven, the Purigen beads will be thrust up into the filter where they will plug it up. The filter can be cleaned and reused, but you will end up having to clean it quite often. In the picture of my reactor you can see two platforms near the bottom. Water enters the chamber at the very bottom and then flows upward thru the lower platform which has a lot of holes and acts as a baffle and provides a nice even flow to the Purigen on the upper platform.

After water flows thru the Purigen, there has to be a filter which will prevent the Purigen beads from flowing into the tank. The beads wont harm the fish, but they are very unsightly. This filter has to have quite a lot of surface area because all of the floating beads and some of the others will get into it and will plug it up. If you notice in my reactor, there are several inches between the top surface of the Purigen and where the bottom of the filter begins. This gap helps greatly in keeping the beads out of the filter. However, some of them can be seen on the filter anyhow.

I know that the phosban reactor comes with a sponge, and that this may or may not keep the beads out of the tank. I don't know if it will plug up with beads, but since there isn't much distance between the Purigen and the sponge, my guess is that it probably will.

I will be glad to assist you in any way I reasonably can. Would very much like to see you get a properly operating Purigen reactor. If you can find a way to adapt a phosban reactor for Purigen, that would be really great. If you want to copy my design, I can provide more details on it.

Paul

[Gene]

Gene,

I understand your view that it sounds too good to be true. After posting on this subject before, I know that there are others (perhaps many others) that share your skepticism. Especially with all the disinformation that one can encounter on the internet these days.

Paul

I simply meant that new ideas don't always get the support they deserve when stacked against what is already proven reliable. I'm glad you decided to do this. I am actually going to try this when I move my fish into a display tank. Great info.

[afriend]

I have built a simple CO2 reactor before which is just an air stone in a 2' section for 2" PVC and am comfortable working with the plastics so I just have a few questions on the design. In looking at the pictures, it looks like the water flows in thru the center pipe and through the sediment filter and is then pushed through the purigen to the return that is at the bottom. What, if any, block are you using at the base of the filter on the inflow pipe that separates it from the return line? Or is there no divider and because the outlet pipe is smaller, it makes some of the water recirculate back through the purigen before returning?


I would also assume that the product would not work as well if the beads were circulating instead of a thick, stationary layer that you currently have.

As a DIY junkie, this is like being handed a bottle of Oxy :D

littleyellow,

Here's a link to some additional Photobucket pictures showing details of my Purigen reactor. When you get to the website, click again on any picture to enlarge it.

http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/pscramer/library/Purigen%20Reactor%20Project

Here's how the water flows. Refer to the picture showing the entire Purigen reactor. Water into the reactor enters at the upper left at the cap. It is then directed downward thru the 1/2 in cpvc pipe to the left of the pleated filter. It then goes thru a 90 deg elbow where it meets with the 3/4 in pvc
T. The top of the T is blocked internally so that the water has to flow down thru the 3/4 in unions all the way to the bottom of the vessel. There is a 3/4 pvc union at the bottom with several 1/4 in holes drilled in it. Water flows thru these holes into the vessel chamber at the bottom. The water then flows upward where it meets the first of two platforms (these platforms are made from 3/16 in acrylic sheet). This lower platform has many holes drilled in it and acts as a baffle. After going thru the baffle, it then flows thru the upper platform which holds the Purigen beads. After flowing thru the Purigen beads it continues up and flows thru the pleated filter. The pleated filter is held in place with a 3/4 in pvc pipe which also has a number of holes drilled in it. After going thru the holes in the pvc pipe it flows upward to the cap and out the exit on the right.

When you view the close-up picture of the lower section of the reactor, it is actually in operation at the time that the picture was taken and water was flowing thru the beads at about 0.5 gallon per minute (more than sufficient to do the job). The surface of the Purigen looks like a "slow boil". This rate of flow is intentionally set at a slow rate for several reasons. First, it helps to keep the Purigen beads from being thrust up into the pleated filter where they will plug it up. I'll explain the other reasons after you learn more about the reactor, assuming that you are still interested.

The Purigen is not a thick layer, it is almost completely fluidized.

There's some other things that I can tell you that will help you understand about the reactor and how to build it. So please feel free to ask. I would very much like to see you build one and get it into operation. I promise you that I have not exaggerated the way it performs. In fact there are other attributes of Purigen that I haven't mentioned yet.

Like you, I'm also a DIY junkie. Very glad to meet someone else who likes to play and experiment with stuff. This was a very interesting project for me. I really enjoyed it a lot. I must say that it turned out really well.

Paul

[afriend]

Paul -

I use Purigen and have seen some good effects by placing a bag in my HOB filter (on the top layer) or in a canister. As you state, they are not as dramatic and I have nothing scientific to share, but I am convinced it makes a difference.

Do you have a post or blog entry on how you built such a reactor? Also, after you regen your Purigen, do you keep it "wet" or allow it to dry out while waiting to use it again?

Thanks,
Mike

Mike,

Please reference my reply to littleyellow above. If you decide to build your own reactor, feel free to copy my design. I'm willing to help by answering questions.

According to the Techs at SeaChem, it's important to keep the Purigen beads wet between use. If they dry up they have a tendency to break up if they dry out. Also, I would recommend that you place a cap of Prime into the wet beads after you have bleached and rinsed them.

Paul

[William Palumbo]

Hi Paul...I am curious what the other attributes of Purigen is. Honestly, I am pretty old-school, and really employ the KISS method on my tanks. I was never worried about poop/debris on the bottom of the tank, or even the build up of slime/algae. My fish grew, and breeders were always with fry. Those here who have seen my hatchery would agree. I do use carbon, tho most don't on here, but I found ways and situations where it helps. How does Purigen really enhance the water quality, other than making poop disappear. Thanks...Bill

[littleyellow]

Paul, thank you for the explanation, I was pretty close, just wrong flow direction. I think the fact that the purigen was darker towards the top tripped me up. I think you mentioned a filter that keeps the beads from falling down and I see a blue disk between the top disk and the beads but cannot figure out what that is, lol.

Thanks, Carl

[JERRYKEVIN]

Purigen + Poly Pad filters = Pristine water IMO

[dkeef]

Is there any easy to use media bag where u can throw purigen in and plave that into sump area with high flow?
Im thinking maybe right before sump return pump.
Some people in reefcentral have used it this way.
What do u think paul?

Also some claim purigen use reduced their nitrate level. Is this possible?

[a volar]

Paul, you are using 2 nu-clear canister filters and also a micron cartridge in the purigen reactor, to me that’s enough to keep crystal clear water, you are using "lift tubes" which keep water moving, I think what makes poop and left over food disappear is the nu-clear filters aided by the lift tubes, I'm sure purigen helps, but to claim that purigen dissolves poop whit out any hard facts that’s going a little bit far... JMO

You still change water daily anyway...........

How often you clean those micron cartidges?

[afriend]

Hi Paul...I am curious what the other attributes of Purigen is. Honestly, I am pretty old-school, and really employ the KISS method on my tanks. I was never worried about poop/debris on the bottom of the tank, or even the build up of slime/algae. My fish grew, and breeders were always with fry. Those here who have seen my hatchery would agree. I do use carbon, tho most don't on here, but I found ways and situations where it helps. How does Purigen really enhance the water quality, other than making poop disappear. Thanks...Bill

Bill,

I rather suspect that the use of Purigen is better suited for the hobbyist than a person in your profession. But there's a chance I could be wrong about that since I know very little about the hatchery business. (I do respect and admire those that bring us those beautiful fish.) When I was speaking to the attributes of Purigen I was thinking about how the use of it benefits people like me who just want to keep a display tank. My interest is in keeping a display tank with adult discus. So here is a list of how Purigen has changed the enjoyment of my hobby.

Healthier fish. Not long after I started using Purigen I noticed that my fish looked healthier, they held their fins more erect, brighter colors, appetites improved, and they displayed less aggression.

Cleaner water. My water was always clean, but now it "sparkles". When viewed from the side with sunlight shining thru it, it is obviously much cleaner. The fish seem to be floating in air because you just don't see the water.

No Algae. I used to have a real problem with algae. Once a month I would have to remove all of the decorations and soak them overnight in hydrogen peroxide. I haven't had to do this ever since I started using Purigen months ago, and the decorations look as clean as the first day I put them in place. This is due to the fact that Purigen reduces the nitrates to zero, and without nitrates, algae cant grow.

Tank maintenance reduced. The work required to keep the tank clean has been reduced big time. I still do monthly clean up (which takes less time), but I don't have to do anything between months. I don't have to syphon debris off the bottom or wipe slime off the glass except once monthly and the glass and tank bottom looks like it has always been recently cleaned.

Tank appearance. The whole tank and everything in it just looks so much better. It's a pleasure to have a nice clean aquarium and just sit back and enjoy it. And I don't have to work like a dog to keep it that way.

Less water exchanges. The way that Purigen works is that it absorbs organic compounds (and lots of them) and thus less water exchanges are necessary. My daily water exchange rate was 40%. I have recently reduced this to 30% and plan to maintain this rate for a few months to see what happens. I may consider reducing it more in the future.

Now I realize that a lot of the above probably isn't much concern in your profession. But I can tell you that the use of Purigen has changed the enjoyment of my discus aquarium.

Thanks for asking.

Paul

[dkeef]

Paul can yu tell me more about your auto water change system?
How is water drain and fill done and its schedule etc.

[William Palumbo]

Thanks Paul...took a step back from the hobby, and I am enjoying it at a hobbyist level. For now, less is more. But if Purigen can have a positive effect on your Discus, I would not be that closed minded to not try it, tho don't know about using in in a reactor tho, which seems like that's how it works best...Bill

[afriend]

Paul, thank you for the explanation, I was pretty close, just wrong flow direction. I think the fact that the purigen was darker towards the top tripped me up. I think you mentioned a filter that keeps the beads from falling down and I see a blue disk between the top disk and the beads but cannot figure out what that is, lol.

Thanks, Carl

littleyellow,

The Purigen is darker at the top because the Purigen on the lower outside doesn't get as much water flow. This is due to the way the upper platform is built. I figure that about 95% of the Purigen is getting good flow thru it. The remaining 5% is what you see.

Very good observation, especially about the "blue disk". I'll try to explain what this is and how it works. Later when I next service my reactor, I'll take some pictures and post them.

The "blue disk" you see is actually a piece of silicone air line tubing. The upper platform is made from 3/16 acrylic sheet that I got from Home Depot. The acrylic sheet has a lot of holes drilled in it to let the water flow thru. On top of the acrylic sheet is a thin piece of filter mesh made of polyester, 250 micron mesh. This mesh is replaced monthly because it will plug up. That's one of the reasons why the water flow rate is so low (the less the flow rate the longer it lasts before needing replacement). The mesh is held in place in two places: near where the 3/4 in pvc pipe goes thru, and around the outer ring next to the vessel side. Picture this: I made a ring from a piece of 4 in pvc pipe. This ring has inner diameter of 4 in and an outer diameter of 4.5 in (the wall thickness of 4 in pvc pipe is 1/4 in). The height of the ring is 3/8 in. There are eight holes drilled thru the ring and matching holes thru the acrylic sheet. Eight nylon screws go thru the ring, the mesh and the acrylic sheet. This is how the outer portion of the mesh is held in place. Now for the silicone air line tubing. The upper platform is lightly smaller in diameter than the inside diameter of the vessel (this is so that it will slide in easily, and can be removed). The silicone tubing is pressed into place between the vessel side and the 4.5 in outer diameter of the ring. This forms a seal so that water will be forced to flow thru the mesh.

One picture is worth a thousand words. I'll forward a picture of this next time I service the reactor (first of next month). These pictures will show the upper and lower platforms removed from the vessel and dissembled. It's all designed to come apart for easy removal and cleaning.

Paul

[afriend]

Purigen + Poly Pad filters = Pristine water IMO

Jerry,

I first used SeaChem's 100ml bag of Purigen and placed it in my canister filter. It gave me pristine water also. But pristine water is just a side issue compared to removing organic compounds. At least that my way of thinking. My experience showed that this reduced organic compounds, but I wasn't satisfied with the result. Opening the bag and examining the Purigen after a months use clearly showed that the water just wasn't getting exposed to much of the Purigen. I think that this is due to two things. First the bag materal is made from a fine mesh and gets plugged up easily, and second, the tiny Purigen beeds get compacted in the bag.

Don't know what Poly Pad filters are, can you post a picture?


Paul

[Ryan]

I tried this in my 210 gallon by placing it in a large mesh bag and putting that in the wet-dry sump directly in front of my return pumps, and didn't see any change unfortunately. It could be that the effect of the Purigen is diminished in a mesh bag versus the reactor where the surface area of the Purigen coming into contact with the water would be greater. I sent my remaining Purigen to Pat and I think she's going to eventually try this when she builds a reactor.

When you read about Purigen on cichlid forums they talk about how it absorbs nitrate, but this is actually not what Purigen does. Someone corrected me on this at MonsterFishKeepers just a couple days ago. Per Seachem's website:


Purigen® is a premium synthetic adsorbent that is unlike any other filtration product. It is not a mixture of ion exchangers or adsorbents, but a unique macro-porous synthetic polymer that removes soluble and insoluble impurities from water at a rate and capacity that exceeds all others by over 500%. Purigen® controls ammonia, nitrites and nitrates by removing nitrogenous organic waste that would otherwise release these harmful compounds.

I'm still unsure as to how it breaks down waste in the water column. Is it releasing something into the water? According to their documentation it's just an absorbent but if the solid waste on the tank bottom disappears it has to be releasing something to break it down, right?

I'm guessing you'd also need to do a large tank maintenance and water change before adding the Purigen reactor to start with clean water, as it says right in their documentation that it only controls nitrates by removing waste, but doesn't remove the nitrates themselves.

[afriend]

Is there any easy to use media bag where u can throw purigen in and plave that into sump area with high flow?
Im thinking maybe right before sump return pump.
Some people in reefcentral have used it this way.
What do u think paul?

Also some claim purigen use reduced their nitrate level. Is this possible?

SeaChem produces a 100ml bag of Purigen that is intended for just the purpose that you are considering. Problem is, that it doesn't work very well for two reasons. First the bag material gets plugged up easily, and second, the tiny Purigen beeds get compacted. I tried this and got some improvement in water quality and it didn't work very long (about two weeks). Also the cost of doing it this way is somewhat pricy compared to buying it in bulk form and using it in a reactor.

Purigen is very effective at removing nitrates. My nitrates are zero when measured with the API nitrate test kit (bright yellow).

Paul

[dkeef]

How about if u use hob filter and place purigen in that. Water should directly flow thru the mesh bag and thru purigen.

[afriend]

Paul, you are using 2 nu-clear canister filters and also a micron cartridge in the purigen reactor, to me that’s enough to keep crystal clear water, you are using "lift tubes" which keep water moving, I think what makes poop and left over food disappear is the nu-clear filters aided by the lift tubes, I'm sure purigen helps, but to claim that purigen dissolves poop whit out any hard facts that’s going a little bit far... JMO

You still change water daily anyway...........

How often you clean those micron cartidges?

Ismael,

I have used the 2 Nu-Clear canister filters for years. They are 30 micron pleated mechanical filters and I replace them about every two years with new ones. The lift tubes were installed all during this time. The fish poop and other debris accumulated at the bottom of the tank. Wish I had a dime for each time I syphoned the tank bottom out to keep it clean. I did this about twice a week for more than 10 years. The filters were removed and cleaned monthly. The resulting water has always looked clean.

I installed my Purigen reactor a few months ago. Within hours the fish poop disappeared (almost all of it anyway). I don't know what you want for hard facts, but I assume that you have examined the pictures referenced in my initial post on this thread. These are actual pictures of my tank bottom after three weeks without any cleaning. What little fish poop can be seen in the pictures is fresh. Also note how clean the glass is (almost no slime build up).

Also, a few days ago I took the Purigen reactor off line to make a few modifications to it. Fish poop immediately began to accumulate. After two days there was considerable fish poop and debris. Sure enough, a few hours after putting it back on line almost all of it was gone. What would you consider as hard facts? If its not the Purigen that's causing the stuff to dissolve, what's causing it to disappear?

Yes, I still am making water changes. Initially it was 40% daily. Recently I reduced this to 30% daily. I plan to maintain this level of water exchange until I feel sure what, if any, results form this reduction. I don't like making big modifications to my water exchange routine until I'm sure what's going on in the tank. Perhaps in a few months I might reduce it more.

As far as water clarity is concerned, my water has always been clear. However, upon using the Purigen, the water now "sparkles". I was amazed at how much it improved. Especially when viewed form the end of the tank when the sun rays shined thru it.

Paul

[afriend]

I tried this in my 210 gallon by placing it in a large mesh bag and putting that in the wet-dry sump directly in front of my return pumps, and didn't see any change unfortunately. It could be that the effect of the Purigen is diminished in a mesh bag versus the reactor where the surface area of the Purigen coming into contact with the water would be greater. I sent my remaining Purigen to Pat and I think she's going to eventually try this when she builds a reactor.

When you read about Purigen on cichlid forums they talk about how it absorbs nitrate, but this is actually not what Purigen does. Someone corrected me on this at MonsterFishKeepers just a couple days ago. Per Seachem's website:



I'm still unsure as to how it breaks down waste in the water column. Is it releasing something into the water? According to their documentation it's just an absorbent but if the solid waste on the tank bottom disappears it has to be releasing something to break it down, right?

I'm guessing you'd also need to do a large tank maintenance and water change before adding the Purigen reactor to start with clean water, as it says right in their documentation that it only controls nitrates by removing waste, but doesn't remove the nitrates themselves.

Ryan,

I'm not surprised that you got less than expected results with the use of a mesh bag. I believe that this results because there is insufficient contact between the Purigen and water for two reasons: first, the bag will tend to get plugged up with slime, and second, that the tiny beads of Purigen get compacted in the bag because the water pressure pushes them against the bag material. This is probably why there is such a wide difference in opinions about the effectiveness of Purigen. Some love it and others don't think its worth the money.

I was in contact with Pat recently on the SD forum. She said that she has the Purigen but can't locate the reactor that she was going to use.

Before deciding to go with Purigen, I spent time searching SeaChem's website. They have an excellent discussion forum with SeaChem Techs that will answer questions about their products. I now remember reading the statement you quoted about how Purigen relates to nitrates. I forgot about that and have stated at times that Purigen reduces nitrates to zero. This is factually wrong, but it's easy to understand why someone might say that. Purigen stops the production of new nitrates by absorbing the organic compounds that produce them. Thus if an aquarium already has nitrates in the water when Perigin is first used, the existing nitrates will be flushed out with water exchanges. Then, providing that the source water has no nitrates in it (like my water), water exchanges will simply flush out the existing nitrates, and there won't be any new ones produced to replace them.

Here's how I suspect that Purigen causes the fish poop to disappear. (I'm no chemist so I could be wrong about this). Fish poop is water soluble. Any substance that is water soluble will dissolve in water if it is not saturated already. For example sugar is water soluble. It will dissolve in water until the water reaches saturation, at which point the sugar will stop dissolving and remain in solid form. The rate at which the substance will dissolve depends on the amount already in solution. Thus at first the sugar will dissolve quickly, and then more slowly as the water approaches saturation. Fish poop consists of organic compounds. Purigen reduces organic compounds in the water by absorbing them. The fish poop simply dissolves in the water because there are less organic compounds as the Purigen absorbs them. Anyhow, that's my explanation and I would welcome all constructive criticism on this subject.

[afriend]

Paul can yu tell me more about your auto water change system?
How is water drain and fill done and its schedule etc.

dkeef,

My automated exchange system works like this. My aquarium tank water level is maintained by an overflow pipe. When water is added to the tank, it mixes with the existing water and the excess flows down the overflow pipe into my septic system.

I have a water production room in a closet in my basement. In it there are two tanks, one 125g and a second 155g. The 125g tank accumulates the water from an RO filter (I call this the RO tank). There's a float valve (the kind that's used in toilets) in the RO tank which stops the water flow from the RO filter. When a pressure switch senses that water is no longer flowing into the RO tank it shuts down the RO buster pump.

I call the 155g tank the Mix tank. When the Mix tank gets low, I fill it with RO water and straight well water at a 3/1 ratio until it is full. I then enable a programmable timer. This timer is programed to turn a pump on and off seven times each day. Each time it turns on, it pumps water for 5 minutes and then turns the pump off. A valve controls the flow rate of the pump thus controlling the amount of water that goes into the aquarium each time. This flow rate is set for 1g per minute. At present the timer pumps water at 8, and 10 am, and 12, 2, 4, 6, and 8 pm. This results in a total of 35g in a 24 hour period. A pvc pipe carries water from the water production room to the aquarium located upstairs.

The system has been in operation for about 15 years. Never had any problems with it thus far. Its a very simple straight forward system.

If you would like some pictures of it, PM me and I will try to get to it when I can.

Hope this helps you.

Paul

[kevin.whisler]

Here's how I suspect that Purigen causes the fish poop to disappear. (I'm no chemist so I could be wrong about this). Fish poop is water soluble. Any substance that is water soluble will dissolve in water if it is not saturated already. For example sugar is water soluble. It will dissolve in water until the water reaches saturation, at which point the sugar will stop dissolving and remain in solid form. The rate at which the substance will dissolve depends on the amount already in solution. Thus at first the sugar will dissolve quickly, and then more slowly as the water approaches saturation. Fish poop consists of organic compounds. Purigen reduces organic compounds in the water by absorbing them. The fish poop simply dissolves in the water because there are less organic compounds as the Purigen absorbs them. Anyhow, that's my explanation and I would welcome all constructive criticism on this subject.

No criticism from me, but I will offer a couple of constructive doubts/questions. First, I question your assertion that fish poop is water soluble. Perhaps it is, but I don't know that to be true. If it is then your theory as to the effect of stripping dissolved organic compounds (DOC's) from the water driving the solids into solution in the water makes perfect sense. I guess a good test would be to put a bit of poop into a significant volume of distilled water and see what happens. If it is soluble it should dissolve in distilled water.

Second, assuming this system is functioning as you suggest (waste becoming DOC's in the water, subsequently absorbed by the purigen) the law of conservation of mass still applies. The waste does not go away. So the entire mass/volume of solid waste produced during an entire cycle of the purigen (I believe you said one month) has to be on the purigen beads. Is there any indication that this much material is being accumulated? I don't think you can account for that much material simply from the beads becoming dark. Do they noticeably increase in size, appear to have solid material deposited on them? There is alot of surface area on all those tiny beads, so maybe it is reasonable, it just seams like too much material to account for.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way knocking what you are doing. I am just not totally convinced of your theory as to what is going on. But then, you have pretty strong empirical evidence that the waste is being removed from the system, so maybe my analysis is all wet. A very interesting thread; thanks for posting.

[dkeef]

U forgot to include that he has been doing 40% daily water change. That accounts for removal waste.
To me purigen is an ice on the cake.

[Jbarnes]

Thanks for sharing. Good information for those of us starting out. Jerry

[Ryan]

Second, assuming this system is functioning as you suggest (waste becoming DOC's in the water, subsequently absorbed by the purigen) the law of conservation of mass still applies. The waste does not go away. So the entire mass/volume of solid waste produced during an entire cycle of the purigen (I believe you said one month) has to be on the purigen beads. Is there any indication that this much material is being accumulated? I don't think you can account for that much material simply from the beads becoming dark. Do they noticeably increase in size, appear to have solid material deposited on them? There is alot of surface area on all those tiny beads, so maybe it is reasonable, it just seams like too much material to account for.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way knocking what you are doing. I am just not totally convinced of your theory as to what is going on. But then, you have pretty strong empirical evidence that the waste is being removed from the system, so maybe my analysis is all wet. A very interesting thread; thanks for posting.

This has been my main question, too. Thinking about it today sent me to Google and I read up about Purigen use on multiple fish forums. There's a general consensus that if the Purigen is "controlling ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate by removing nitrogenous organic waste that would otherwise release these harmful compounds," it suggests that the Purigen removes the waste before it has a chance to turn into ammonia, which would then in turn be converted to nitrite and finally nitrate by the biological filter.

My question, then, is does this render biological filtration useless? If no ammonia is produced from the waste in the tank, there is nothing for the nitrifying bacteria in your biological filter to feed on. If they have no ammonia to convert, those beneficial bacteria die. If that were the case and you didn't have biological filtration, what would happen if the Purigen reactor failed one day while I was at work? Would the fish poison themselves with ammonia with no biological filtration to convert it?

I suspect that SeaChem is being obtuse in their explanation of how this product actually works. I'd love to really understand how it's doing its job. As much feces as a tankful of growout discus produce, I have a hard time believing Purigen could get rid of it all.

[lipadj46]

As much feces as a tankful of growout discus produce, I have a hard time believing Purigen could get rid of it all.

I do to. I use purigen and do believe it does something but I do not believe it is capable of reducing nitrates for any length of time in a normally stocked tank.

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

[afriend]

I do to. I use purigen and do believe it does something but I do not believe it is capable of reducing nitrates for any length of time in a normally stocked tank.

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

First, I would suggest that you go back to Ryan's post on page 2 of this thread and read his quote from SeaChem.

Purigen does not reduce nitrates. If you use Purigen in a tank with existing nitrates and do not make any water changes, the existing nitrate will remain. What Purigin does is to stop the production of new nitrates by absorbing organic compounds. When I first started using Purigen in my tank, it had a nitrate level of about 10 ppm. Then I introduced my Purigen reactor and the nitrate level in the tank went to zero, so it appeared that the Purigen absorbed nitrates, but in fact it does not. It was the water changes that reduced this nitrate level to zero because my source water has zero nitrate. If my tank had 10 ppm of nitrates to start with, and my source water had 30 ppm nitrates, the nitrate level would have increased to 30 ppm as the water exchanges occurred.

SeaChem claims that Purigen absorbs lots of organic compounds, and after using it I believe this because my nitrate level remains at zero for an entire month. Nitrate level is probably a good indication of when the Purigen has reached its capacity, because I suspect that nitrate level will then begin to increase.

Perhaps my earlier posts on this thread lead to this misunderstanding about Purigen reducing nitrates, because I clearly misstated about Purigen reducing nitrates. Thank you Ryan for bringing this to my attention.

Paul

[lipadj46]

I understand how purigen works, I'm a chemist and chemical engineer so I am quite familiar with how adsorption media works. I don't believe that 250 ml of purigen will drop nitrates to zero for any meaningful amount of time.

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

[Ryan]

This sounds like another experiment for the Laboratory forum! All eyes are on you, Pat. ;)

[Second Hand Pat]

Shoot Ryan, guess I better find, buy or build a reactor.

[ktltn04]

This sounds like another experiment for the Laboratory forum! All eyes are on you, Pat. ;)

+1 . very interesting subject.

[ktltn04]

This has been my main question, too. Thinking about it today sent me to Google and I read up about Purigen use on multiple fish forums. There's a general consensus that if the Purigen is "controlling ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate by removing nitrogenous organic waste that would otherwise release these harmful compounds," it suggests that the Purigen removes the waste before it has a chance to turn into ammonia, which would then in turn be converted to nitrite and finally nitrate by the biological filter.

My question, then, is does this render biological filtration useless? If no ammonia is produced from the waste in the tank, there is nothing for the nitrifying bacteria in your biological filter to feed on. If they have no ammonia to convert, those beneficial bacteria die. If that were the case and you didn't have biological filtration, what would happen if the Purigen reactor failed one day while I was at work? Would the fish poison themselves with ammonia with no biological filtration to convert it?

I suspect that SeaChem is being obtuse in their explanation of how this product actually works. I'd love to really understand how it's doing its job. As much feces as a tankful of growout discus produce, I have a hard time believing Purigen could get rid of it all.

I believe Purigen is another ingredient to work with biological filtration to take out ammonia, nitrate, nitrite. If you put it in the last compartment of your wet/dry, it will help remove the leftover of what your bacteria couldn't convert.

[100fuegos]

Simple test: Remove the Purigen beds and control amonia levels. If amonia level increases and no nitrates are produced then Purigen simply kills the bio filter. In a couple of days we should be able to know.

[strawberryblonde]

Shoot Ryan, guess I better find, buy or build a reactor.

Go Pat go! :bounce2::bounce::bounce2::bounce::bounce2::bounce :

On a side note, I used Purigen when my tanks were fairly new because I had a problem with phosphates in my tank. I used it in my sump, at the end of the system and just before the pump. It worked perfectly and reduced the phosphates, thereby reducing my brown algae.

I had to clean it once monthly with bleach and it lasted for about 8 months before it finally gave up the ghost. I can't tell you whether or not it reduced nitrates because I've never had nitrates higher than 5ppm in any of my tanks.

As far as making my water sparkle? Sparkling clear water has never been an issue for me. Some days and at some points during the day my water columns can look a mess...but that's usually when gaggle of discus are tearing apart a beefheart cube or few FDBW cubes. Once they've finished snatching up all the bits, the water is crystal clear again...even when viewed from the side of the tank.

So yeah, I think that Purigen has a purpose and could possibly work well in a reactor. I just hope that everyone who reads this realizes that the author still does WC's every day.

[afriend]

I want to thank Ismael, Ryan, Kevin, and dkeef for your inputs to this thread. I started thinking about the direction you guys were pointing me towards and I now have a different view about things. I was more or less pointing this thread towards Purigen dissolving fish poop. My view is now that a Purigen reactor is part of a bigger picture: a Purigen reactor is one element of a complete filtration system consisting of bubble lift tubes, mechanical filtration, Purigen reactor, bio-filter, and water exchange.

When I introduced my Purigen reactor to my aquarium, I already had all of these elements in place except the Purigen reactor. Then with the introduction of the Purigen reactor, I suddenly achieved what I considered some really good results: crystal clear water, no algae, almost no slime, no more syphoning, a really clean tank that required MUCH less work to maintain, and healthier fish. I was really rather amazed at the results and figured this was due to the the Purigen reactor, but I now know that it was due to the whole filtration system of which the Purigen reactor is necessary but only one element of a complete system. So now I have to change the claim that I made about what the addition of a Purigen reactor will do, and state that with a complete well designed filtration system which includes a Purigen reactor, some amazing results can be achieved.

For some others that are following this thread and are doubtful as to the results stated herein, I just want to assure you that I have not exaggerated anything that I have stated about the results. The type of filtration system that I have may not be best suited for breeders, raisers, or planted tanks. But if you do not have a planted tank and you want a display tank with decorations and you want to show off a really beautiful clean tank full of colorful discus, and want to reduce the effort to keep it that way, you really should consider a well designed filtration system which includes a Purigen reactor.

Thanks everyone for your inputs and contributions.

Paul

[afriend]

Shoot Ryan, guess I better find, buy or build a reactor.

Pat,

If you decide to do this, please let me help you by reviewing your approach before you get committed to a particular set up.

Also, be sure to read my latest post about a Purigen reactor being but one element of a complete filtration system. I believe that all of the elements must be in place and they must be suited to the task. Otherwise you might not get the same results that I did.

I don't know of any reactor presently available that is suited for Purigen. My reactor is not a simple task to duplicate, but I'll be glad to assist you if you want.

Paul

[Second Hand Pat]

Paul,

My phosban reactor was going to be my starting point as it seems to operate on the same premise where you want slow water flow through a bubbling media be it phosban or purigen. If phosban and purigen have similar characteristics in water then it seems worth a go.

http://www.thatpetplace.com/phosban-aquarium-phosphate-reactor-550?utm_source=msn&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=phosban_reactor_550&ne_ppc_id=1456&ne_key_id=16641595&ne_sadid=178526440

Also for all concerned here this would be added to a already established tank with fish, a existing maintance schedule and a sand substrate so some things will be a bit harder to observe then in Paul's situation.

[afriend]

I understand how purigen works, I'm a chemist and chemical engineer so I am quite familiar with how adsorption media works. I don't believe that 250 ml of purigen will drop nitrates to zero for any meaningful amount of time.

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

Don,

What part of my post about how Purigen works do you not agree with. I stated that Purigen does not reduce nitrates, it just stops new ones from being formed.

I use an API nitrate test kit to test for nitrates. What I can state for sure is this. With my water exchange rate of 40% daily, my nitrate level is between 5 and 10 ppm when I do not have my Purigen reactor on line. My source water for exchange always measures 0 ppm. Then when I put the Purigen reactor on line (while continuing water exchanges) the nitrate level drops to zero (bright yellow on the API color chart), and remains at zero for at least one month. What evidence could I present that my statement here is as I say? Or perhaps is there something I'm not understanding properly?

Paul

[lipadj46]

I don't disagree with anything about how seachem claims purigen works. My experiences have been different than yours, I saw that after a short initial spike of activity purigen does not measureably change nitrate production. It does however continue to clarify the water and reduce odors when feeding heavily. I played around with purigen quite a bit before I decided I do not need another reactor on my tank. I had an internal reactor that worked quite well as far as tumbling but I did not see a difference though after a day

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

[afriend]

Paul,

My phosban reactor was going to be my starting point as it seems to operate on the same premise where you want slow water flow through a bubbling media be it phosban or purigen. If phosban and purigen have similar characteristics in water then it seems worth a go.

http://www.thatpetplace.com/phosban-aquarium-phosphate-reactor-550?utm_source=msn&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=phosban_reactor_550&ne_ppc_id=1456&ne_key_id=16641595&ne_sadid=178526440

Also for all concerned here this would be added to a already established tank with fish, a existing maintance schedule and a sand substrate so some things will be a bit harder to observe then in Paul's situation.

Pat,

The Purigen beads are very small, about 30/1000 inch in diameter. They are also SLIGHTLY more dense than water, and some of them will actually float in water. A flow rate of about 0.5 gallons per minute is all that is necessary to get them to fluidize, however the flow must be steady, non turbulent, and even. A filter with a large surface area has to be in place to stop the Purigen beads from being thrust into the aquarium tank. That's the starting point for the design of a Purigen reactor.

I have several concerns about using the Phosban reactor. Back when I first began considering building a Purigen reactor I thought about using it. Knowing what I know now about Purigen, I very glad I didn't. In fact I would not recommend using it even as an experiment. There are just too many technical considerations. I really don't think you can use it to get a good measure as to the effectiveness of Purigen. Please believe me, I know what I'm talking about. I can discuss these considerations if you are interested.

You can proceed with your experiment with a Phosban reactor if you like and I will be glad to help you if I can. But I really have to caution you that I suspect that you may not achieve results similar to mine.

I'm pleased that you want to try an experiment using Purigen. I say this because I believe that when word gets out about the benefits that can be achieved, its going to make a huge difference to the discus community.

Paul

[Second Hand Pat]

Paul,

So if no commericial reactor works then the only choice is to build one right? Care to share a plan and parts list?

Pat

[kevin.whisler]

U forgot to include that he has been doing 40% daily water change. That accounts for removal waste.
To me purigen is an ice on the cake.

Good catch. So on average, 40% of the solid waste is being removed via daily water changes. That still leaves 60% to be accounted for. Is the purigen absorbing that much material? Maybe...

[kevin.whisler]

I suspect that SeaChem is being obtuse in their explanation of how this product actually works.

I share your suspicion.

[Second Hand Pat]

Good catch. So on average, 40% of the solid waste is being removed via daily water changes. That still leaves 60% to be accounted for. Is the purigen absorbing that much material? Maybe...

I do not think Paul (OP) is removing anything from the tank except water but he should clarify that.

[afriend]

Good catch. So on average, 40% of the solid waste is being removed via daily water changes. That still leaves 60% to be accounted for. Is the purigen absorbing that much material? Maybe...

Guys,

Let me jump in here and offer an amendment to my hypothesis. Perhaps this is what's going on. The fish poop is made up of more than just organic compounds, say organic compounds and suspended solids. The organic compounds bind the suspended solids together and when they dissolve, the poop all falls apart. The suspended solids get trapped in the 30 micron pleated mechanical filters or are flushed out by the water exchanges. Since the organic compounds are dissolved, they pass thru the filters where they are absorbed by the Purigen. Perhaps the suspended solids weigh quite a bit more than the organic compounds and thus the Purigen beads don't increase their mass much. Any one care to pick this one apart?

Last month when I was cleaning the filters I did notice that the filters were a little heavier than normal, so I weighed them and compared them to some identical filters that were used before the Purigen reactor was brought on line. Turns out that they weigh about 30% more. This would tend to support the hypothesis.

Paul

[afriend]

Paul,

So if no commericial reactor works then the only choice is to build one right? Care to share a plan and parts list?

Pat

Pat,

I would be more than happy to share all the information that I have on how I built my Purigen reactor. First I would suggest that you go to post #11that I made to littleyellow. In it there is a link to Photobucket that contains pictures on details of the reactor. Study them a little and then ask whatever questions you have. If you want more details, I can provide that also.

Let me tell you that I'm a retired engineer and I love to tinker with stuff. To that end, I have a very complete workshop in the basement of my home. I will tell you that with all of the equipment in my workshop, this project was still somewhat challenging. I'm not saying that it cant be done, but it will take someone with a reasonable grasp of shop practices and craftsmanship to accomplish. Please don't misunderstand my words here. I have no idea what your skills are, and for all I know I may be a novice compared to you in this area.

If after you look it over and decide not to try producing one yourself, come back and I may have another alternative for you to consider. I really want to see this experiment to proceed.

Take some time to study the pictures and ask whatever questions you have. I'll be glad to help.

Paul

[afriend]

This has been my main question, too. Thinking about it today sent me to Google and I read up about Purigen use on multiple fish forums. There's a general consensus that if the Purigen is "controlling ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate by removing nitrogenous organic waste that would otherwise release these harmful compounds," it suggests that the Purigen removes the waste before it has a chance to turn into ammonia, which would then in turn be converted to nitrite and finally nitrate by the biological filter.

My question, then, is does this render biological filtration useless? If no ammonia is produced from the waste in the tank, there is nothing for the nitrifying bacteria in your biological filter to feed on. If they have no ammonia to convert, those beneficial bacteria die. If that were the case and you didn't have biological filtration, what would happen if the Purigen reactor failed one day while I was at work? Would the fish poison themselves with ammonia with no biological filtration to convert it?

I suspect that SeaChem is being obtuse in their explanation of how this product actually works. I'd love to really understand how it's doing its job. As much feces as a tankful of growout discus produce, I have a hard time believing Purigen could get rid of it all.

Ryan,

I had similar thoughts when I first considered using Purigen. I really don't know the answers to questions you pose, but I can say a few things. SeaChem recommends that people using Purigen continue using an established bio-filter. I plan to follow their advice and keep it there. Also, I suspect that there will always be some level of bacteria that will continue to survive because the organic compounds are always being produced and its not removed immediately from the water. Also, some time ago I did some experimenting with my bio-filter and determined that the bacteria are rather robust (they don't die out easily). They also reproduce fairly quickly and could probably reestablish in a couple of days. This is just a guess on my part. In any case, it's a good plan to keep a bottle of Prime on hand for just such a circumstance.

Last week I took my Purigen reactor off line for two days to do some minor modifications to it. There was no apparent change to my fish. I keep one of those little ammonia alert tags in the tank and did not notice any change in its indication.

Paul

[a volar]

Paul, you are using 2 nu-clear canister filters and also a micron cartridge in the purigen reactor, to me that’s enough to keep crystal clear water, you are using "lift tubes" which keep water moving, I think what makes poop and left over food disappear is the nu-clear filters aided by the lift tubes, I'm sure purigen helps, but to claim that purigen dissolves poop whit out any hard facts that’s going a little bit far... JMO

You still change water daily anyway...........

How often you clean those micron cartidges?


I want to thank Ismael, Ryan, Kevin, and dkeef for your inputs to this thread. I started thinking about the direction you guys were pointing me towards and I now have a different view about things. I was more or less pointing this thread towards Purigen dissolving fish poop. My view is now that a Purigen reactor is part of a bigger picture: a Purigen reactor is one element of a complete filtration system consisting of bubble lift tubes, mechanical filtration, Purigen reactor, bio-filter, and water exchange.

When I introduced my Purigen reactor to my aquarium, I already had all of these elements in place except the Purigen reactor. Then with the introduction of the Purigen reactor, I suddenly achieved what I considered some really good results: crystal clear water, no algae, almost no slime, no more syphoning, a really clean tank that required MUCH less work to maintain, and healthier fish. I was really rather amazed at the results and figured this was due to the the Purigen reactor, but I now know that it was due to the whole filtration system of which the Purigen reactor is necessary but only one element of a complete system. So now I have to change the claim that I made about what the addition of a Purigen reactor will do, and state that with a complete well designed filtration system which includes a Purigen reactor, some amazing results can be achieved.

For some others that are following this thread and are doubtful as to the results stated herein, I just want to assure you that I have not exaggerated anything that I have stated about the results. The type of filtration system that I have may not be best suited for breeders, raisers, or planted tanks. But if you do not have a planted tank and you want a display tank with decorations and you want to show off a really beautiful clean tank full of colorful discus, and want to reduce the effort to keep it that way, you really should consider a well designed filtration system which includes a Purigen reactor.

Thanks everyone for your inputs and contributions.

Paul

I agree :)
As I express in my first post.

[Discusdude7]

Does purigen remove meds from the water?

[afriend]

Does purigen remove meds from the water?

I don't know, but click on the link below. This is the website for SeaChem. They are the people who produce Purigen. After you get to the website, click on "Support" and then "Discussions". This will take you to a forum where you can pose your question.

SeaChem has a staff of technical people that answers questions. I have found them very helpful and knowledgeable. There technicians are not just off the street people. They are trained professionals in various areas that involve fish stuff.

seachem.com


Paul

[afriend]

I agree :)
As I express in my first post.

a volar,

Thank you for your reply. I should have put your name on the list. Was wondering what your thoughts were on my reply to your first post. Its contained in Post #26 in this thread. In the post I asked some questions and did not notice any reply on your part. Would you kindly reply to the questions I posed?

Paul

[Boyd Luth]

Purigen + Poly Pad filters = Pristine water IMO

Where is the best website to purchase Purigen & Poly Pad Filters ?

Also. I utilize the Two Little Fishes 150 Phosban Reactor with 2 100ml bags....works very good, with the exception of flow thru the beads.....Am willing to try another DIY setup, will keep reading thanks, good post, Boyd.

[dkeef]

Paul, i just found this one online:
http://www.petmountain.com/product/aquarium-media-reactors/11442-573344/media-reactor.html

all their products are 50% off now. great deal.

do u think the bigger 24" tall reactor would be good as a purigen reactor?

[afriend]

Paul, i just found this one online:
http://www.petmountain.com/product/aquarium-media-reactors/11442-573344/media-reactor.html

all their products are 50% off now. great deal.

do u think the bigger 24" tall reactor would be good as a purigen reactor?

I really don't know if this reactor will function properly, but I suspect that it wont. Would suggest you refer to Part 4 of my presentation where I discuss the design requirements for a Purigen reactor. There needs to be a filter that will prohibit the beads from going into the tank. I suspect that a sponge just wont accomplish this very well, without becoming plugged up. Might be worth a try if you think otherwise. Also, take a close look at the lower section of my reactor showing the baffle and the Purigen platform.

The reactor shown in my pictures is 24" high.

Paul

[dkeef]

People at seachem said they think putting purigen bag in high flow area of filter or sump would work well.
Do u think a reactor is a must?
Im getting many different opinions.

[afriend]

People at seachem said they think putting purigen bag in high flow area of filter or sump would work well.
Do u think a reactor is a must?
Im getting many different opinions.

I understand that you are getting many different opinions. I have already addressed this issue in my write up, but I'll repeat it here. First, the big picture. Purigen used in a reactor is just one part of a complete filtration system as described in Part 3. In order to get the results that I got, all of the elements must be in place: bubble lift tubes, circulation pump, mechanical filtration, bio filter, Purigen reactor, and water changes. These elements do not have to be identical to what I have, but changes must be carefully considered in light of the function they perform.

Before using Purigen, I already had all of the other elements in place except for the reactor. My water was quite clear, and I had lots of algae, slime, and fish poop collecting on the bottom of the tank. Then I placed a 100ml bag of Purigen in an area where there was high flow rate. The only real change that occurred was that the water was crystal clear (the Purigen did a really great job at making the water "shine.") After removing the bag of Purigen from the filtration system, I cut it open and examined the Purigen beads. It's very clear that the beads become compacted in the bag and do not allow the water to flow thru the beads properly. Then I built my Purigen reactor, placed it online and the change was very dramatic: no longer did I have to syphon fish poop off the bottom of the tank, the algae was reduced to zero, and the slime was greatly reduced. I measured the nitrate and it was zero (accounting for the huge reduction in algae and slime). I recommend that you review the pictures presented in Part 1. I still do a monthly cleaning, but the job is much easier because the removal of algae and slime is the hardest part of tank cleaning, and I can go up to six months without having to clean algae and slime, and the tank always looks as if it was just cleaned.

Then I performed an experiment where I took the Purigen reactor offline for two days. The fish poop began collecting again and the nitrates began to increase. I repeated this experiment just to be sure of the results.

Before deciding to go with Purigen, I did a search on the SeaChem site for Purigen. There is a comment by one of the Tech's "You can use Purigen in a reactor, but it's probably not worth the effort." Now the Techs do know that they have a great product (it absorbs large amounts of organic compounds). So what I'm saying is simply this: I don't think they know what kind of results that can be obtained when Purigen is used in a reactor as part of a total filtration system. Perhaps some day they will.

Now, what I am telling you here is not exaggerated in any way. It really is that way when ALL of the filtration elements are in place and
functioning properly. I suspect that there are some at the SD forum that have doubts of my results. So be it, I'm convinced that it's only a question of time before others catch on. Results speak for themselves.

Paul

[Miamiheat]

Reviving an old thread here but i read it with great interest. Wondering if the "experiment" was done and the theory somewhat verified?

[OC Discus]

Absolutely verified. I use 4 100 ml pouches around a micron filter in my mag 350 canister and two hob filters with floss and bio sponges. I've been able to do weekly 80% water changes and maintain pristine water. This week I was two days late on my water change. Checked parameters before wc. Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate- 5-10.

My system is bare bottom, so an 80% wc= cleaning 100% of tank surfaces- I wipe down sides, bottom all surfaces of heater and filters using a toothbrush, bottle brush, and sponge and allow loose particles to be filtered before vacuuming. I also flush the artificial driftwood under hot water every water change. It is amazing how much waste can accumulate inside something. The floss in the HOB's are changed weekly. The micron filter is changed bi-weekly. And the purigen is changed monthly. Water stays pristine between water changes and fish show no signs of stress or disease. They are also continuing to grow noticeably.

I have gone to two daily feedings which slows the growth of brown algae, diatom, protein or whatever it is that builds up on the surfaces. My largest is over 5" now and my guess is he will top out around 6" being thick and healthy. The others are catching up with him quickly. Not show fish, but it works for me and my lifestyle. Beautiful, healthy fish that are a joy to keep.

You can probably find some threads where afriend and I have discussed this subject at length and others have contributed their experiences. My purigen reactor has been running for several months now and afriends for probably a year.

[Miamiheat]

Thanks for quick reply. I have not been able to open the pics on the thread where Afriends had posted. I will be searching in the threads but meanwhile I am curious to find out if you ever took pics or posted any video of your setup. Pictures/videos speak for themselves.
Thank you very much

[OC Discus]

There are some pictures in some of the threads. I can't immediately point you to them. A search on OC Discus or Purigen might pull them up. Good luck.

Like afriend said, it is not the purigen alone. It is also other forms of filtration, cleaning, large water changes, and testing to keep the water pristine

[Miamiheat]

Like afriend said, it is not the purigen alone. It is also other forms of filtration, cleaning, large water changes, and testing to keep the water pristine


Yes I have paid attention to that part. Thanks for prompt replies.

[afriend]

Thanks for quick reply. I have not been able to open the pics on the thread where Afriends had posted. I will be searching in the threads but meanwhile I am curious to find out if you ever took pics or posted any video of your setup. Pictures/videos speak for themselves.
Thank you very much

Miamiheat,

I'm not sure if you are looking in the right place. Have you looked at the Stickies under the SD section titled "Filtration, Pumps, and Plumbing"? This contains a four part presentation of the filtration system.

BTW, I have verified the links to Photobucket referenced therein and they all work properly as of today.

Paul

[Miamiheat]

No I did not look it up the way you are suggesting. I was just reading a thread which linked to one of your threads and there where Photobucket links. Everytime I tried to open one it would not work. I will search the way you just suggested. Thanks