Fishless Cycle Stalled?

[Nu2Discus]

I'm doing a fishless cycle. The last time I cycled a tank was about 20 years ago, and I did a fish in cycle in saltwater. So this is my first time doing a fishless cycle.

I started the cycle on Aug 25, so today makes 13 days into the cycle. I added ammonia using Ace Hardware's Ammonia 10%. I added 5 mls and that gave me a reading of ammonia 2 PPM. I then added 5 mls more, and it wound up at 4PPM. I thought that was close enough to 5 so I stopped there. The water started to become cloudy about a day or two later, and has been cloudy ever since. In fact it may even be getting more cloudy as the days go on. It's though to tell though. The tank is 4ft long, and you can barely see to the other end.

My readings have pretty much been the same since I started. Ph is hovering around 8.2-8.4. Ammonia started off at 4 PPm, and it's pretty much still there. The green in the test tube using API's test kit might be a touch lighter now, but it's hard to tell. If its a bit lighter, it's not much. The nitrites are zero, the nitrates are zero my temp has been 85F and my TDS has been in the high 470's.

Are these normal values for day 13, or should I have seen something happening by now? Has the tank stalled?

Tanks in advance for your help.

[DonMD]

I recently did a fishless cycle in a 75 gallon tank. I used Ace ammonia also, just put in a capful, and got a reading of 2ppm. But I also put in the bioballs I discovered from a vendor on this forum. He sells both Pond and Aquarium bioballs. I threw in a handfull. I did get some clouding, but I don't think as much as you. I let it go for about 2 weeks, then did a 75% w/c, and added half a capful of ammonia. One week later I had zero ammonia and zero nitrite. Added a half capful again, and got about 2ppm ammonia. Next day got a reading of zero, but some nitrite. Second day, zero on both accounts. Fully cycled.

If you've got cloudy water I'd do a w/c, then reintroduce more ammonia, but try to keep it at 2ppm, that's really all you need. It'll cycle. Sometimes it takes longer than others. Good luck.

[nc0gnet0]

If you've got cloudy water I'd do a w/c, then reintroduce more ammonia, but try to keep it at 2ppm, that's really all you need. It'll cycle. Sometimes it takes longer than others. Good luck.

+1

2-3 ppm is all I ever shoot for

[Nu2Discus]

Thanks for the responses, I pulled off maybe 60% of the water or so. I'm now refilling the tank. Hopefully this will jump start things a bit.

Thanks for the help.

[nc0gnet0]

Get some pure aquaria pond or aquarium balls, be done in a few days.

[Nu2Discus]

Ok an update to my fishless cycle. I'm still cycling, it's day 24.

After I did the partial water change, I added more ammonia, and it came up to about 2-3 ppm. About 4 days later, on day 19 of the cycle, the ammonia dropped to 1 ppm. At that point I added more ammonia and it came back up to about 3ppm. It slowly dropped to 1-2 over 2 days, and has now been at 1-2 ppm for about 3 days.

I just checked my parameters and here's where I am. Ph=8.3, ammonia=1-2ppm, nitrite =0, nitrate=0, TDS=478, temp=86F. The tank has slowly gotten very cloudy again. Right after the water change it did clear up to some extent, but it was never totally clear. But as I added ammonia it got progressively cloudier as the days have been going on. I'll try to post some pics to give you an idea of the cloudiness.

Am I doing something wrong, or does this seem like I'm on the right track? I'm starting to get a little discouraged here. I was trying to avoid using any bottled bacteria, but today I went and bought some tetra safe start at the LFS. Do you think I should add it, or just keep on without it? Also should I do a partial or total water change? Thanks for your help.http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zps01975e02.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zps01975e02.jpg.html)http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zpsc6e5ec5c.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zpsc6e5ec5c.jpg.html)http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zps763e32a1.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zps763e32a1.jpg.html)http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zps74688bc1.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zps74688bc1.jpg.html)http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zps60cedc46.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zps60cedc46.jpg.html)

[strawberryblonde]

Fishless cycles can take forever sometimes. Usually it's due to a low pH, but you say that yours is high, so I'm stumped.

You've got some other choices that could work for you.

First up is adding a good bacteria starter. I personally can vouch for both Dr. Tim's One and Only and Pure Aquarium Balls. They both work, though you'll have to continue adding a tsp. of Ammonia to the tank every few days to keep feeding the bacteria once you've added either of the products.

The second choice is to purchase seeded sponge filters when you purchase your discus. I know that a couple of the sponsors here are willing to send you seeded filters from the discus tanks if you purchase fish from them. You get the filters AND the fish at the same time, plop them both into the tank and you're good to go. I've used the seeded filter option and it works great.

[blueluv]

Fishless cycles can take forever sometimes. Usually it's due to a low pH, but you say that yours is high, so I'm stumped.

You've got some other choices that could work for you.

First up is adding a good bacteria starter. I personally can vouch for both Dr. Tim's One and Only and Pure Aquarium Balls. They both work, though you'll have to continue adding a tsp. of Ammonia to the tank every few days to keep feeding the bacteria once you've added either of the products.

The second choice is to purchase seeded sponge filters when you purchase your discus. I know that a couple of the sponsors here are willing to send you seeded filters from the discus tanks if you purchase fish from them. You get the filters AND the fish at the same time, plop them both into the tank and you're good to go. I've used the seeded filter option and it works great.

+1 on buying seeded sponges from a sponsor. I'll be purchasing discus from Kenny's October shipment and he told me that he would sell me seeded sponges. Just as an added measure, to cycle my AC70 and other sponge , I'll be purchasing some pure bacteria balls from Bill at inland empire discus.

[Frankr409]

I have used bacteria starter with great results, and even asked LFS for a bit of gravel from a tank. From those pictures that you have posted there is no doubt at all in my mind that the reaction is happening. It could take several weeks to begin showing even a nitrite count though, so I think it is going to happen. I allow 30 days for everything.

[Gorf]

Hi

I still have my fishless cycle log, like you, I also avoided bacteria in a bottle products & went for the real deal.

Here is my log entry for day 14: Ammonia 2ppm, Nitrite trace, Nitrate 0ppm, pH 7.4, temp 26.5°C, GH 3°, KH 3°, Oxygen 12ppm.

Initial Ammonia seed should be 4ppm & allow that to fall to under 0.5ppm before then boosting regularly back to 2ppm.

What you are seeing is a bacterial bloom. Please could you check your GH & KH levels?

[Nu2Discus]

Hi there Gorf. To be honest, I don't think I tested the GH/KH since I started the cycle. I will test and get back with the results. However I did test my tap water for GH/KH a while ago, and here's what I was getting using the API test kit.

GH= 11 drops=11 dkh = 196 ppm
KH = 9 drops = 161 ppm

[Nu2Discus]

Ok just ran the tests.

KH =10 drops= 10 dkh= 179 ppm
GH = 16 drops = off the scale

[Gorf]

That's pretty hard water you have there! I had just wanted to check that your KH hadn't dropped to zero or something.

I've fishless cycled with Ammonia 4 tanks & apart from the hardness & bloom, you're doing ok. On day 21 I'll take a beer bet that you'll see some good movement!

Don't use "safe-start". Keep going as you are & grit your teeth. It will get good next week.

[Nu2Discus]

Yes it is hard water. I was thinking about getting a RO/DI system but was told it wasn't totally needed, and I also didn't want to to deal with all that waste water either.

I'm already past day 21, actually today will be day 28, I started this cycle 4 Sundays ago. That's why I'm concerned that I haven seen any movement in a month already.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Nu2Dicus, a bit late reading this, on your post September 19 where you show pictures of your tank. Are you running air through your sponge filters? Hard to tell from the pictures. If you are not running air this would explain why you are not seeing progress with your cycle.
Pat

[Nu2Discus]

Hi pat, yes I have a sponge filter in there with air running through it. I also have an air wand about 5inches long on one end of the tank with air going through it. I'm also running an AC 110.

[Second Hand Pat]

Seems that you are running plenty of filtration. Is your water still that cloudy?

[Nu2Discus]

Yes it's still cloudy. In fact I'm betting it's worse. It seems like it gets cloudier when I add more ammonia to it.

[Second Hand Pat]

Well, since you are stuck if I was in your shoes I would be tempted to do a huge WC, add prime/safe if needed and add enough ammonia to go to 2 ppm. Are you sure you are using ammonia without anything added? like surfactants?

[Nu2Discus]

I just snapped two examples of the way the tank looks right now. These are just iphone pics, but it'll give you an idea of things anyway.

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zps4811e4e4.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zps4811e4e4.jpg.html)http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zps610aa124.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zps610aa124.jpg.html)

[Nu2Discus]

Ok here's where I stand as of a few mins ago. I decided to run some tests and take some photos of the results to let you see what I'm getting. Maybe I'm not reading it properly. The colors recorded pretty accurately, maybe a bit off. But you'll the gist of things anyway.

I started off using ammonia which I bought from Ace Hardware.

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zps9819bb4e.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zps9819bb4e.jpg.html)

Today's results.
Test for Ph I'm calling it 8.3
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zps050bc3ca.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zps050bc3ca.jpg.html)

Test for nitrAte I'm calling it 0


http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zps55e5a6cd.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zps55e5a6cd.jpg.html)

Test for ntrIte I'm calling it 0
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zps05614a60.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zps05614a60.jpg.html)

Test for ammonia in real life it was a bit darker, I'm calling it 2
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zpsf8a947b3.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zpsf8a947b3.jpg.html)

[Second Hand Pat]

I wonder if the 4 ppm on the ammonia is too strong and killing the cycle before it can even get started.

[Nu2Discus]

Now if anyone is interested in the long version of my cycling journey this is it.

I set up the quarantine tank, it's a 60 gallon tank which is bare bottom. In it I have an AC 110, one sponge filter #5, and an Eheim 300w heater, and an air wand I think 5 inches or so. I filled it with water that went through a filter that has a sediment filter and 2 carbon block filters. It removes chlorine and chloramine. It took about 7 hours to fill the tank. I tested for chlorine and chloramine in the tank, and it had none present. I let that run over night.

The next day I added 1/4 tsp Safe, let that run a bit, then added ammonia to 4 ppm. None of the parameter values changed much, but the tank started to get cloudier as the days went on. Finally at day 9 the ammonia looked a bit lighter, so I called it 3 ppm. But truth be told, it wasn't much of a change, and the tank was very cloudy. This stayed the same until day 14. On day 14 I pulled off about 60% of the water and refilled it with filtered water. I added safe again just to be sure I didn't have any chlorine or chloramine, retested, and my ammonia in the tank was 1 ppm. I left it over night to let things settle out.

The next day the level was still 1 ppm. I added more ammonia and this time stopped at about 2 ppm. The ammonia stayed at about 2 until day 19, when I thought it had dropped to 1 ppm. So I added more ammonia, and it tested out about at 2-3 ppm. It stayed there till day 22, and tested out at about 1-2 on day 22. At this point I decided to see if it would continue to drop, to make sure I was really seeing a change or if I was talking myself into it. The colors can be hard to see sometimes. Well the value didn't change basically staying 1-2 until day 26, when I decided to add more ammonia and hope for the best. I re tested, and decided it was 2 ppm, and now 2 days later today we are at day 28 and still I'm calling it 2 ppm.

But regardless of the ammonia, from the way I'm reading the test results it doesn't look like my nitrItes have formed at all. So I think I'm stalled out. What does everyone else think?

[dirtyplants]

Ugh!
Do you know what is in your tap water? You have a high pH and I am wondering what is added to the tap? I would not myself add an ammonia removing agent during a cycle. I have had the cloudiness happen many times in the past adding ammonia eliminating agent when refilling from the tap directly. Not a pretty site! or is it sight? :0 I live in an area of limestone bedrocks, making water very hard. I can only think perhaps not enough of the right type of bacteria. Your tank only used with fish friendly agents for cleaning? I would add seeded media, or even bacteria to see if it affects the cloudiness. Did you try lowering the temp? Maybe the ammonia bacteria have a hard time multiplying in high temps? Sorry I wish I had some magic bullet.

[Nu2Discus]

So at this point, do you think I should just continue on as is? Or should I add the safe start plus, or should I do a water change? I'm kind of confused as to what would be the best thing to do right now.

[dirtyplants]

At this point you can begin again or add some safe start and see if that helps, I would drop the temp to 80, if the temp doesn't help and the safe start doesn't work you can always begin again. Walk back wards so you know what will not work, try temp, then try safe start, and if that does not help begin again.

[Gorf]

Can I just check something?

Are you adding Seachem Prime? How often are you doing this?

Does your tap water contain chlorine, or chloramines?

To confirm, the cloudiness is a bacterial bloom. This is common during fishless cycling & the only effect of this is to reduce the available oxygen in the water. Sit it out & it will go in a week or so.

Run the temp at the same level as you will be in future when the tank is stocked.

Will you be sourcing your Discus locally?

[rcomeau]

Why do water changes during a fishless cycle?

The purpose is to grow bacteria which includes growing it in the water column. Cloudy water is a part of that process. All you need is patience. Why remove water that is progressing through the process with water that has not been going through the process?

Also, if you have chlorine and/or chloramine in the water that you use for the water change(s) then you could kill some of the little bacteria that has started growing in the filters.

I don't think that the typical instructions for fishless cycling include water changes while waiting for the tank to cycle. Instead, instructions typically state to do a large water change when readings indicate that it is cycled and ready for fish. That big water change at the end is needed to reset the water chemistry to prevent the PH from crashing if it is left to continue. BTW, fish seem to still suffer and die after that point. I wouldn't risk discus until well after 45 days.

A cycled tank that is cleaned too much (WC, filters cleaned, etc.) will become cloudy. That is a sign that it was cleaned too much. Doing a WC is a part of the problem, not the solution (although WCs are still necessary when fish are present while waiting for bacteria to re-grow in the filters again).

[dirtyplants]

Come to think of it my 40gal grow out tank I set up two months ago. I took a an aqua clear 75gal filter and hung it on my big tank. I seeded the AC for two months then added water to my 40 gal. It clouded up right away, so after a week, I did a partial water change thinking that perhaps I did not rinse my tank well enough, it still clouded so I just left the filter on and checked in 24 hours, found it totally cleared up.

So are you using aged water, if so how long is it aged for? Check you water department on line to see what they add to the water, or call. IMHO water changes during a cycle are the last resort. Seeding your tank with bacteria should only quicken the cycle. I personally feel you do not have enough bacteria, but we are all guessing at this point. My suggestion is to take your time, do one thing and one thing only step by step so you know what is happening and what works or does not work. The only way to fully understand what may be happening is to take each step and exhaust the measurements of that step before moving on.

I know this gives you no solutions but if you are to problem solve you must ascertain the results of each phase jumping around will only confuse the issue.

[Nu2Discus]

My water company does in fact use chloramine to disinfect our tap water. That's why I bought a filter from the Filter Guys that removes chlorine and chloramines. My water at this point is aged. It's been aging for a month already in the tank lol. But before I did anything with the tank and cycling it, I ran my tap water through the filter directly into the tank. It took over 7 hours to fill the 60 gallon tank. I let that water then run over night for about 24 hrs, with an AC 110, a sponge filter (the largest one I think it's a #5), and I also have an air wand in the tank. That sat for 24 hrs. I also checked the water in the tank after it was filled, and then again after 24 hrs for chlorine and chloramine, which tested negative, so those were not present.

I thought I'd play it extra safe, and added 1/4 tsp of Safe just for the hell of it after the water in the tank ran for 24 hrs. Then I added ammonia to 4 ppm, and let it ride for 14 days. No change, in my parameters. The only thing that happened was that the tank got so cloudy you almost couldn't see through it. At that pointing I decided to do a bit of a water change, after some people suggested to maybe do a wc. I also thought maybe the 4 ppm of ammonia might have been too high, and it was stalling the cycle. So I removed about 60% and once again added the filtered water. The water that was added once again I tested, no chlorine/chloramine. Again thinking I'd better play it safe, I added Safe 1/4 tsp just in case something slipped by. Those were the only times I used Safe.

After the water change I added more ammonia but only to 2 ppm this time thinking maybe it was too high before. The ammonia level stayed the same for the next 5 days, so now I'm 19 days in. At that point, I called my ammonia 1 ppm, and then added more ammonia and called it about 2 ppm. It stayed the same for about 4 days, now I'm at day 22, and now I tested and called it 1-2. At this point I decided to let it ride and see if it continued to decline. Why? Because the color changes are so slight and subtle I wasn't sure if I was really seeing anything or it was just wishful thinking. So I let it go until day 26, when I got annoyed after still not seeing any change, and added ammonia just for spite and see what would happen. I didn't add too much it tested out about 2ppm maybe a touch more, once agin the colors are so subtle in difference, and let this ride until yesterday. Yesterday was day 28 one full month now, and I'm still unchanged with ammonia at 2ppm.

I also don't seem to have any nitrites, so I'm not moving anywhere by the look of it. So yesterday, I just wiped the tank walls down, lowered my temp, today it's 83. I also added some floss to the AC last night just for the hell of it. I also squished the sponge filter a little and also the pre filter on the AC intake inside the tank just to be sure I'm getting flow through it. I tested my parameters again today, and I'm I shocked to report, wait for it....wait for it...... Once again..... No change. Who knew?

So I'm letting it ride for now.

[strawberryblonde]

Ok, so since your tank is refusing to cycle no matter what you do, can I ask what your plans are for the tank? I'm assuming that you're going to be adding discus, right?

If that's the case, and you're planning to purchase discus for that tank, why not just purchase through one of the sponsors on these forums and purchase seeded sponge filters at the same time? You can continue to run the AC when the new fish and filters go into the tank and it will slowly seed itself while the sponge filters handle the bio-load of the new discus.

It just seems like a much less frustrating way to get a stubborn tank up and running. =)

[Nu2Discus]

Hey there Toni. This is going to be a quarantine tank for discus. I'm probably going to buy the discus from Kenny. I didn't think of buying a seeded sponge filter, and I might just do that. But I don't want to rely on that totally. So I think I'm going to continue on with this cycle and hopefully it'll start to progress.

As the day has gone on today, I think the tank might be clearing up a touch. I'm not sure if it's because I wiped the walls down, or if it because I squished the sponges yesterday, or if it's because I added some floss to the AC or if it's just me talking myself into it. I'll wait and see tomorrow if it's clearing. But hopefully something positives is starting to take place. It would be about time lol.

[dirtyplants]

Wish you a quick cycle.

[Nu2Discus]

Quick update.

Last time we left off, I was at day 28 of the cycle. I had wiped the tank walls and squeezed out the sponges. The tank actually cleared up almost completely after a few days. After a few days I decided to add some tetra safe start plus to see if that would help. That was day 31. Things have pretty much stayed unchanged. I have added a bit more ammonia here and there, and the ammonia has been staying at 1-2 the whole time. I also wiped the tank down again a few days ago and squeezed the sponges in the tank.

Today the tank is pretty clear looking. I'd say the cleanest it's been since this whole thing started. I ran the tests today (day 37 of the cycle) and here are the results. Ph=8.3, ammonia 1-2ppm, nitrite=0, nitrate to me looks like 5ppm, TDS=517, temp=82.

I took some pics of my results.
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/bf6d6885-bf46-4466-9022-3e2b77ae8128_zpsb4ea2c6c.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/bf6d6885-bf46-4466-9022-
3e2b77ae8128_zpsb4ea2c6c.jpg.html)

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/879836a9-b86c-4dfe-9326-a4109454f8d0_zps6932671c.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/879836a9-b86c-4dfe-9326-a4109454f8d0_zps6932671c.jpg.html)

Am I reading this properly? It looks to me like my nitrites are zero, but the nitrate to me look like they might be 5ppm. Is it possible to be seeing nitrates without any nitrites?

[Second Hand Pat]

Your nritrate could be more like 10ppm.

[Nu2Discus]

Hi Pat! I've been noticing my nitrates turning a bit orange over the past few days. But since the nitrites to me look like it can't be anything but zero, I really wasn't making much out of it. But today the orange in the nitrates looks more pronounced. So now I'm wondering if there really could be some nitrates forming.

What do you make of the fact that the nitrites seem to be zero?

[Second Hand Pat]

Could be. I wonder if you are simply missing the nitrites...ie your timing is off with the testing.

[Nu2Discus]

Can I miss them? I've been testing all those parameters I've listed, everyday in the afternoon. Not exactly at 24 hour intervals, but within a few hours of it anyway.

[Second Hand Pat]

Not sure...maybe. Either way the raising nitrates are a good sign.

[Nu2Discus]

Yea I'm excited. I just wish there was something like a progress bar, so you could know if you're stalled or moving very slowly. I'm ok with moving very slowly, it's just the not knowing that drives you crazy.

[Eti]

Yea I'm excited. I just wish there was something like a progress bar, so you could know if you're stalled or moving very slowly. I'm ok with moving very slowly, it's just the not knowing that drives you crazy.

Hey nu2, I have had the same problemon my 75g. I was just adding pure ammonia and nothing was happening...until someone told me to put a little bit of food, which could "wake up your nitrites". So 4 days ago, I bought some regular fish flakes and put a tiny bit. I came back from a trip yesterday and YES, I have some nitrites reading! I started my cycle on September 1st with 4ppm of ammonia and I had the exact same colours as you on my API tk (very frustrating)! But since my nitites test is turning a bit purple, I am almost as happy as if my discus would have babies!

[Nu2Discus]

Hey there Eti! Oh I'm glad it's not JUST me. You know I have heard of adding some fish food, but forgot about that. Thanks for reminding me! I may just try that myself. I checked my parameters today(I check everyday), and my nitrates seem to be 5-10ppm, but the nitrites are still zero. The blue is so blue and so far away from the first purple, I wouldn't doubt if I had negative nitrites lol.
Are you only going to add the fish food once, or do you think you'll add more than just the one time shot?

[flutterbug]

I hate to be a bearer of bad news but the 5 ppm or even 10 ppm Nitrate reading is probably just what your tap comes out with. If you want to be sure do a nitrate test on your water right out of the tap. I have in the past and my tap always reads between 5 and 10 ppm. Usually summer causes higher readings. Something with Agricultural bi-products in the water. We aren't somewhere warm so we only have that in warm weather.

[Nu2Discus]

Hey Flutterbug. Actually I did test my tap before I started the whole process. My tap has zero nitrites, zero nitrates, and zero ammonia. I then filtered my tap water before I used it. I then re-tested the water after being filtered, and I still had zero ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites.

Also I've been testing everything everyday since I started. I had zero nitrites, and still have zero nitrites. But when I started I had zero nitrates, just the past few days to maybe a week, I've noticed the nitrates becoming more orange. At first, I didn't think much of it because the nitrites were zero, and the color was still yellow and having a slight orange tinge, but for about 2-3 days now, it's been very orange. Today they are 5-10 ppm, which is pretty far away from the yellow when I started. So it is a bit odd.

[musicmarn1]

+200 for seeded sponges, because buying discus is going to cause a new cycle anyway :) your not adding TH.a.t much ammonia! Or food etc, so your bacteria colony can't handle the amount of discus you need to make the DISCUS happy, unless you have some fish who can have a party in the tank until diacus come ( now your seeing nitrate I'd do it) get the seeded sponges and do at least one hopefully two water changes daily. I've started three new discus tanks having never kept them in the last year. This and Epsom salts are my ONLY qualifications !!

[Nu2Discus]

I thought one of the points of a fishless cycle, was that since you can add a good dose of ammonia, you are building a bigger bacterial colony, than if you did a fish in cycle.

[musicmarn1]

But is it the same size as however many discus will be entering the tank? If not, it's still a mini cycle I find, so seeded media HELPS and water changes are the only way to be safe at either end of the cycle!

[mastermamo]

When I start a new tank I do the following:

A week before I start the tank I use the WC water from main tank and add to a small 60 tank. I then put in 2 sponge filters into 60cm and the HOB destined for the new tank onto 60. I leave it to run for roughly 4-5 days. I then transfer the sponges and HOB to new tank with a mild rinse and inject 5ml Microbe lift into intake nozzle of HOB. Presto my tank is seeded in another days time. Fish go in. Never had a problem doing this on 4 tanks already.

[strawberryblonde]

When I start a new tank I do the following:

A week before I start the tank I use the WC water from main tank and add to a small 60 tank. I then put in 2 sponge filters into 60cm and the HOB destined for the new tank onto 60. I leave it to run for roughly 4-5 days. I then transfer the sponges and HOB to new tank with a mild rinse and inject 5ml Microbe lift into intake nozzle of HOB. Presto my tank is seeded in another days time. Fish go in. Never had a problem doing this on 4 tanks already.

You haven't had a problem with it... until you DO have a problem with it. And by then it will be too late to get a do over, you'll just have to deal with whatever pathogens you introduced to your new batch of discus.

If you're ok with taking that chance, then that's fine for you, but it's not good advice to give to someone who is trying to cycle his tank in a safe and pathogen free way.

Using straight ammonia to cycle new filters in a new tank is also a safe way to get ready for new discus. There will probably still be a mini-cycle, which can be handled with twice a day water changes, Prime and being patient.

The other option is to do as Marnie suggested, seeded sponges that you purchase along with the discus, from the breeder. Adding a seeded sponge to a tank that's been cycled with ammonia should support the entire batch of new fish without any ammonia spikes...so long as you still do daily water changes and watch to be sure that food isn't left uneaten on the bottom of the tank.

[mastermamo]

My main tank has been established for a year. All fish are healthy. When new fish arrive they go into QT for at least 3 weeks before they go into the new tank. They get dewormed and defluked before they go anywhere near the new tank. How am I exposing them to pathogens? Plz explain this. Like I said I've used this method on 4 tanks with no issues.
Unlike you in the US who have reputable breeders we here in SA have guys that import and sell fish and the likelihood of getting an established sponge filter from them is zero.

[strawberryblonde]

This thread really isn't the place to get into a big discussion on pathogens, but I'll give you a really quick reply, and for further reference you can check out some of the sticky notes on the forums.

All fish carry pathogens and bacteria. Not all fish will be carrying the same pathogens and bacteria. As an example, fish bred in Germany are exposed to, and the immune systems can handle, different bacteria than ones bred in Asia.

In some cases you can get fish from two different breeders and toss them together without a problem. And then there's the other cases... where one set of fish is susceptible to the pathogens and/or bacteria introduced by another set of fish.

You said that you've used your method on 4 tanks in the past year without a problem. And I said that your method works, until it doesn't work. Head to the sickness/disease section to read up on cases where people used your method and it didn't work.

[flutterbug]

Well then, the Nitrates may be a good sign! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. I am starting a cycle myself, and I'm already growing impatient!

[mastermamo]

Good luck Flutterbug

[Nu2Discus]

Thanks flutterbug. I know what you mean about getting impatient. For me, it's just the fact of not knowing if I'm progressing very slowly, or just at a stand still. I'm ok with very slowly, but you just don't really know. I guess I could just be at a stand still and not moving forward. This Sunday will be six weeks into this cycle already. Lol patients is a virtue!

Good luck with your cycle.

[flutterbug]

Thanks! :)

[Nu2Discus]

Quick update for anyone still following along.

The tank is stilling cycling, I've been adding ammonia about every other day or so to keep the ammonia level at about 2 ppm give or take. I added a pinch of fish food on day 39 of the cycle. Nothing seemed to change for about 5-6 days. But for the past few days I'm noticing that the pale blue color for the nitrites is starting to darken. Sort of the way the yellow of the nitrates test started to darken. I've run my parameter tests a little while ago and here's what I'm getting.

Ph=8.3 Ammonia=~2ppm Nitrite I'm still calling zero, but the color is starting to darken. So I guess it's somewhere between 0-0.25 ppm Nitrate I'm calling about 30 ppm, it's somewhere between 20-40. TDS =548. temp=82F

Here are the pics
Nitrate I'm calling 30ppm
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zps5450bee9.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zps5450bee9.jpg.html)

Nitrite still close to zero
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zps9747a6b4.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zps9747a6b4.jpg.html)

[Gorf]

Well done, the tank is nearly cycled.

You are correct that the point of cycling this way is to get a good bacteria colony so that you can fully stock. You need to ensure that this colony is stable & well fed. To do this, keep seeding up to 2ppm, we are hoping that the 2ppm will be fully processed to Nitrates in about 12 hours, at the temp that your fish will be kept. So for now, keep as you are going, topping up to 2ppm. If your temp is higher that you wish to keep the Discus, slowly reduce it to the normal level. If you want to plant the tank, plant it now. if your Nitrates get over 80ppm, then 50% water change them to 40ppm. if you have aeration at the moment reduce the aeration to the level which you want for the Discus. Basically get the tank to the specs as though your Discus are living in there, except for the water changes at the moment.

I have found that 2ppm Ammonia processed in 12 hours will prepare your tank for regular stocking perfectly.

[Nu2Discus]

Hey there Gorf! Yea I'm starting to get excited that maybe this tank might be getting ready to move forward and be done already. This Sunday will the beginning of week 7, so I'm hoping I'll be getting close to finishing this cycle. I just checked my parameters today. My nitrates are just about 40 ppm, I'd say the color is a bit shy in redness for 40 but VERY close. I was calling it about 30 yesterday, so that's a step in the right direction. The nitrites are building too I think. The color is a darker blue today compared to yesterday, so I'm somewhere between 0-0.25. Hopefully tomorrow or the day after I'll at least hit 0.25ppm.

The ammonia level is dropping, but not to zero. It seems like it drops everyday, but only a little. So I've just been adding a touch everyday for past few days to keep it at about 2ppm. Hopefully it'll start to drop more and faster soon. I'd be happy to have this done by week 8, but we will have to wait and see how it turns out,

[Gorf]

With the Ammonia, allow the bacteria to consume it down to under 0.5ppm, then dose back to 2ppm. Don't keep topping up. The reason for this is that there are various types of bacteria that consume Ammonia at particular concentrations.

Not long now, maybe another week to be stable.

[Nu2Discus]

Oh wow, I knew there were bacteria that converted ammonia to nitrite, and a difference bacteria to convert from nitrite to nitrate. But I didn't know there were different bacteria for different concentrations as well. Wow.

[Nu2Discus]

Woo hoo! Someone move the coffee table I want to do a cartwheel.

I think I'm finally moving forward a little bit. Today is day 47 of the cycle, and I just ran my tests. Here's how things are looking.

Ph=~8.3 Ammonia 1-2. Last night at 4:30pm it was 2-3ppm. Nitrites are almost if not at 0.25ppm. Nitrates definitely at 40ppm. TDS=538. Temp 82F


Since the nitrates look like they are increasing much faster then the nitrites, should I be worried about the nitrates slowing things down? Is there a point that I should consider a wc based on nitrate levels?


In real life the color was a bit more purple, so I'm close to 0.25 now.
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/9e004e93-7804-4414-8831-e589ca0fda50_zps06c08468.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/9e004e93-7804-4414-8831-e589ca0fda50_zps06c08468.jpg.html)


http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zpsab185a32.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zpsab185a32.jpg.html)

[Gorf]

Well done, things are looking good!

Nitrates will start to choke the Nitrifying bacteria at concentration approaching 120ppm. As the API tests can be a little unreliable for Nitrates in particular, I'd consider water changing at the 80ppm line. You're ok at the moment.

Keep an eye on the pH level, as a crash under pH 6 can stall the cycle. I'm surprised it's so high right now. Is your water quite hard?

Nitrifying bacteria consume Carbonates as they much away. This will reduce hardness, which creates a softer "spring" on the pH.

Biology happening right in from of you! Exciting isn't it! :D

[Nu2Discus]

Hi Gorf! Thanks, I'm just glad that the thing hasn't stalled completely.

Ok so about nitrates at 80 I'll watch for that. I don't think I'll get there for a little bit yet. My Ph has been pretty stable the whole time. Yes we have hard water here. My TDS has increased as well during the cycling process. I'll keep an eye on the ph, but I doubt it'll change too much. I could use a bit of a drop in any event.

I'll do done more testing this afternoon, to see how it turns out today, I didn't redose the ammonia last night. I'm interested to see where it ends up today.

Thanks for your help!

[Nu2Discus]

Ok ran my tests. Things seem to be progressing.

Ph=8.2-8.3. Ammonia=~1 maybe a touch less. Nirite almost at 0.25, the color is darkening, but still not purple exactly.
Nitrates surprised me it looks like It could be at 80. TDS=540. Temp 82F


Ammonia I'm calling 1ppm
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zpsf010bade.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zpsf010bade.jpg.html)


Nitrites
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/b342257f-db93-4e8e-bb33-c76b425c7656_zps13772f6a.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/b342257f-db93-4e8e-bb33-c76b425c7656_zps13772f6a.jpg.html)


Nitrates
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zps97ca7b01.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zps97ca7b01.jpg.html)

I think I'll let it ride over night, and then tomorrow, do my tank wipe down, squeeze the sponges inside the tank, and do a wc to bring down the nitrates? What do you think?

[Gorf]

Don't re-dose the Ammonia yet, lets see a drop a bit further, then re-dose. Don't water change yet, we can handle 80ppm on the line. We don't want the red getting too dark though. How are you squeezing the sponges, what sponges are you squeezing & why are you squeezing them? ;)

[Nu2Discus]

Hi Gorf. Ok I'll wait and see how the tests turn out today.

I've been wiping the tank walls once a week, and maybe once every two weeks I've been squeezing the prefilter sponge on the AC 110, and also give the sponge filter a few squeezes inside the tank. I started squeezing them after the tank got cloudy. I noticed that after I squeezed them, the tank cleared up. I thought maybe they got filled with crud and this hindered flow through them. Maybe it was just coincidence that the tank cleared right after I squeezed them.

[Gorf]

Is the AC110 this?

http://www.amazon.com/AquaClear-110-Aquarium-Power-Filter/dp/B000260FV6

If so, I'd treat the sponge as part of the bio media. Never squeeze it & just swish it around in your water change bucket & pick out any bits.

You've taken the carbon out I assume.... :antlers:

[Nu2Discus]

Hi there Gorf! Yes that's the AC 110 I have. I really haven't touched the sponge inside the AC. It has a sponge and also bio max. I've left that unchanged for 7 weeks now. Today is the beginning of week seven. I have a prefilter sponge on the AC intake. That's the sponge I've basically taken off the intake and just squished it, inside the tank, to make sure it's not clogged up.

I also have a sponge filter #5 in there. I've been giving that a gentle squish once every 2 weeks inside the tank, also to to make sure I've got good flow through it. I didn't think it would be too bad to do inside the tank since nothing was taken out. Was that a bad idea?

No I didn't put the carbon in the AC. I think I still have it somewhere, but it's not in the tank.

[Nu2Discus]

Well I ran my tests this afternoon. This time my ph was about 8.2. My ammonia was just about zero. Yesterday it was about 1ppm, so it dropped by about 1 ppm in 24 hours. My nitrites, the blue might have looked a little paler today than yesterday. So still not 0.25 yet. The nitrates were just about 80 ppm I'd say.

I added some more ammonia, and then checked it after a few hours, and it came up to about 1 ppm. So I then added the same amount again just now. I'll wait a bit and retest. It'll probably settle out at about 2 ppm.

[Gorf]

Understood about the squishing - that's fine. You are correct about not using the carbon.

I'll PM you a link to an ammonia calculator so that you can get the dose correct first time.

[Nu2Discus]

Well it looks like the fishtank cycle fairy paid me a visit last night! I just ran my tests today, and here are the results. Today is day 50.

Ph=8.2-8.3. Ammonia=0.5-1.0ppm. Nitrite=0.25!!! Nitrate=At least 80ppm. TDS=558. Temp=82


Ammonia
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zps70a07a05.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zps70a07a05.jpg.html)


Nitrite
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/192a59c2-081f-4d48-a2ad-61c37a48ea48_zps6f23f60a.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/192a59c2-081f-4d48-a2ad-61c37a48ea48_zps6f23f60a.jpg.html)

Nitrate
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zps92160d70.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zps92160d70.jpg.html)

[jimg]

my way which has never failed is to keep ammonia at 3-5 ppm add some substate to the bottom of the tank, carbon in the filter do no cleanings or wipe-downs. small wc's once a week is ok at most.ph in the upper 7's temp 85 deg. well aerated. you need to have as much surface area for the bacteria to multiply. you can remove the substrate after the tank/filters establish.
The fastest way is to do the same but add dr tims or tetra safestart and do no wc's

[Gorf]

Looking good! You have both types of bacteria active. They just need to multiply enough to handle the load we're feeding them. This won't take long.

[Nu2Discus]

Ok today is day 51 of the cycle. The ph =8.2-8.3. Ammonia was about 0.5. The nitrites were up today, more than 0.25 but less than 0.50. My nitrates were somewhere between 80 and 160. TDS 550 and temp 82


Since the nitrates are up over 80 ppm, should I do a water change? If so how much do you recommend? Also I've been using Safe, I assume I should continue with Safe. I ask because I think some people don't like you to use a dechlorinator during a cycle.

[Gorf]

Leave the water change for another few days & keep testing. When the Ammonia dips under 0.25ppm, then re-dose to 2ppm. We don't want to effect that cycle too much, which is why I'm hesitant with the water changes.

Chlorine or Chloramines can kill the bacteria, so the water must be treated - or use HMA/RO water. I bought an HMA unit when I first started. I found that it paid for itself after about a year & unlike RO water, there is no water wastage.

[Nu2Discus]

Thank you Gorf. I'm letting it ride.

[Nu2Discus]

Today is day 53. Just ran the tests, and here's what I'm getting.

Ph=8.2-8.3. Ammonia=0. Nitrite=0. Nitrate=80-160. TDS=573. Temp 82


Ammonia
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/4757fca2-95ca-4cef-971f-f79eeab8870b_zps15fa9138.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/4757fca2-95ca-4cef-971f-f79eeab8870b_zps15fa9138.jpg.html)


Nitrite
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/31164f22-7a56-4c4f-8ebd-f25d9d432c14_zps59bf0a8b.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/31164f22-7a56-4c4f-8ebd-f25d9d432c14_zps59bf0a8b.jpg.html)


Nitrate
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/Nu2013/image_zps720fae97.jpg (http://s840.photobucket.com/user/Nu2013/media/image_zps720fae97.jpg.html)

I added more ammonia and am letting it ride for now.

[Gorf]

That's a full cycle you have there!

What we need now, is for the bacteria to handle 2ppm of Ammonia in 12 hours - then you're done. No water change yet please.

[Nu2Discus]

Yay!!!! I'll run the tests in a little while and see where I'm at today. Thanks for all your help.

Any idea why the cycle didn't follow the normal progression of ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. Why I was getting nitrates before the nitrites showed up?

[Gorf]

I'm not sure, you were doing some unusual stuff at one point I think. Nitrates can come direct from the water supply.

[Nu2Discus]

Woo hoo! Looks like I've taken another small step forward. Today is day 56 of the cycle. Here's where we ended up.
Ph 8.2-8.3. Ammonia 0 after 24 hrs. Nitrite 0.25 after 24 hrs. Nitrate I'm between 80-160, but closer to the 160 end. TDS 582. Temp 82

It looks like my ammonia is coming down to zero in 24 hrs, from about 2 ppm, but the nitrites are still not there yet, but it's a step forward, so I'm happy about that. I'm hoping this will bring this cycling to an end sometime this week. Today is the beginning of week 8!

Should I be worried about the nitrates being this high? Should I do a water change, or just ride it out the rest of the week, and hope that the cycle will be done by then?

Thanks so much for your help.

[Gorf]

Looking good! Remember to let the Ammonia drop to 0.25ppm or less before dosing back to 2ppm. Nitrates are getting a little steep, but lets stick it out for a few more days. Once they hit a definite 160ppm, then do a 25% water change. Make sure you don't pump any Chlorine in there...!

[Nu2Discus]

Someone pass me a chair. I think I may collapse in a heap. Woo hoo, I think I'm there. Just ran my tests, and here is where I wind up. Today is day 57.

Ph 8.2. Ammonia is zero after 24 hrs from about 2ppm. Nitrite is also zero after 24 hrs. Nitrate is I think a touch less than 160 ppm but close. TDS 587. Temp 82

I just added more ammonia, and I think I'll let it go till tomorrow and see if the trend continues. When I do a water change you recommend only 25%? Bad idea to do more?

Also here's another item, since this tank has been cycling so long, I've lost about 3-4 inches of water from the tank due to evaporation, and also for testing continuously lol. Do you think I should just maybe top it up and see what that brings me to first?

Also with a normal cycle, the nitrites are supposed to spike. But since mine is a little off, I'm thinking I won't have this spike. Is that right?

[Gorf]

Yep, top up the tank with treated water.

The Ammonia bugs develop first, leading to zero Ammonia & lots of Nitrites. Perhaps that's what you mean by a spike?

Regarding the water change quantity, I was just keeping it light as we're just on the verge of a fully cycled tank. There's a delicate balance in there at the moment.

After the top-up. Dose the Ammonia back to 2ppm. We're aiming now for a full Nitrogen cycle in 12 hours.

Good work!

[Nu2Discus]

Yea that's what I meant about the spike. In the normal way things happen, I gather that at first there's zero ammonia, nitrite and nitrates. The ammonia goes up, but nitrites and nitrates stay at zero. Then after a while ammonia starts to go down, and nitrites form, they get really high, but still no nitrates. The nitrites go down, and nitrates finally form.

But with my crazy cycle, I had nitrates, but no nitrites. So now that I have close to 160 ppm nitrates, but the highest I've seen my nitrites were 0.5. But now since both ammonia and nitrites come back down to zero in 24 hrs, I thinking I'll never see the high nitrites. Or am I confused, and the nitrites will still climb up very high?

[Gorf]

You won't see the high Nitrites, I hope!

I'd add that very high Nitrites would be due to seeding Ammonia too high.

[Nu2Discus]

Quick update on my cycle. Today is day 65, I just ran my tests.

Ph 8.2. Ammonia zero after 24 hours from about 2ppm. Nitrite at least 5ppm. Nitrate 80-160. TDS 583. Temp 82

I'm a bit confused at this point, since the ammonia is down to zero in 24 hours, but the nitrites are so high, do I add more ammonia to feed the bacteria? But since the nitrites are so high, do I let them drop down first before adding more ammonia?

[mastermamo]

Day 65!!!! OMG I would go mad

Try this

This is an incredible product. I have used it in all of my 6 tanks and I got results in a week.
In my 2 main tanks I got results in 3 days. I fill 5-10ml into a syringe with a small plastic tube attached to give me more reach and then add 7ml to intake nozzle of my canister (FX5) and 3ml straight into tank. It smells really foul because its live bacteria colonies in the bottle but results are spectacular.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/30/a4y9ery5.jpg