Fate of runts...

[dkeef]

i like everyone else have couple runts in my group. basically the smallest ones.
altho they try to compete for food etc and are eating, i can see they r stressed from whatever reasons...i suspect stress from just being bullied by others from time to time. (its not constant)
some are getting skinny or hide in back.
what r the ultimate fate of the runts?
do they eventually die or can they grow well without stunting and be like the other dominant ones?

[du3ce]

survival of the fittest they will prob be out competed for food and die

[Second Hand Pat]

Best to cull sometimes.

[Madaboutdiscus]

Move them to a tank by themselves til they fatten up?

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

[LizStreithorst]

worm them. If they are stunted they will never grow to their potential so if you don't want to bother worming, feed them to the roses.

[Tony C]

When I was breeding discus the runts and other culls would go stay with their Uncle Jardini, the visits never lasted very long. :p

[discuspaul]

When I was breeding discus the runts and other culls would go stay with their Uncle Jardini, the visits never lasted very long. :p

I like the way you put that !

[GeauxDiscus]

I think it depends on whether you want to save the runts or not. Just understand that if you do, they will always be small (maybe much smaller) in comparison to the others. I agree with Madaboutdiscus - if you want to save them, you can move them to a quarantine tank to see if you can nurse some or all of them back to health. It will take a little work. I'd go ahead and worm and do daily water changes, and of course watch closely for any sort of bacterial or viral illness (in which case your big tank probably needs to be treated).

[yim11]

When I was breeding discus the runts and other culls would go stay with their Uncle Jardini, the visits never lasted very long. :p

LOL mine get relocated to the "1.5 gallon porcelain tank", also a very short stay.

[GeauxDiscus]

My wife's best friend has a very large tiger oscar, and we've dropped a few culls off at her house for short visits as well. :D

[strawberryblonde]

I gotta ask... when we say runts, what size are we talking about as adults?

I'm asking because I've had 2 over the past 2 years that "I" consider runts, but they were both about 6". So what, exactly is considered runt size? I know mine weren't actually runts...they were just normal sized discus in a tank full of giants. LOL

[musicmarn1]

Very useful, taught me more about when to use wormer! Worm all of them ? I have one that's styling thin and not growing much the. Other bought at same time and place growing like a weed, no bullying. So worm just him or all? Which wormer? Sorry not used any medications yet so want to get it right. I upped water changes and filtration, just not seeing a change

[musicmarn1]

Picture, I'd never kill them I can learn from them still, use them to test QT discus and keep other discus company in hospital tank! But I don't have great numbers of Discus.....yet

[GeauxDiscus]

Very useful, taught me more about when to use wormer! Worm all of them ? I have one that's styling thin and not growing much the. Other bought at same time and place growing like a weed, no bullying. So worm just him or all? Which wormer? Sorry not used any medications yet so want to get it right. I upped water changes and filtration, just not seeing a change

Worms are a common cause for discus not eating. I'd try to confirm whether or not your fish have worms before you medicate. You should look for common symptoms such as white, stringy feces or bloat. However, if you suspect your runts have worms, then the rest of your tank may be infected, and you'd need to treat the entire tank, which, depending on the size of the tank, may be very expensive. Once your large tank is cleared, I would always worm incoming fish during quarantine as a matter of course. For my de-worm, I use a combination of 1) API General Cure, which consists of metronidazole and praziquantel (just follow the instructions on the box), and 2) levamisole, which you can get at farm/feed supply stores (yes, that's right) or online, such as Jeffers Livestock. These two meds should knock out most of the possibilities for worms. Bacterial and virus are another story altogether. Hope that helps!

[Gene]

I have 1 awesome runt. It's backwards; he bullies for food and guards the prefilter sponge to pick at it. I guess it's napoleon syndrome but I have no idea why he's the smallest.

[musicmarn1]

Worms are a common cause for discus not eating. I'd try to confirm whether or not your Sfish have worms before you medicate. You should look for common symptoms such as white, stringy feces or bloat. However, if you suspect your runts have worms, then the rest of your tank may be infected, and you'd need to treat the entire tank, which, depending on the size of the tank, may be very expensive. Once your large tank is cleared, I would always worm incoming fish during quarantine as a matter of course. For my de-worm, I use a combination of 1) API General Cure, which consists of metronidazole and praziquantel (just follow the instructions on the box), and 2) levamisole, which you can get at farm/feed supply stores (yes, that's right) or online, such as Jeffers Livestock. These two meds should knock out most of the possibilities for worms. Bacterial and virus are another story altogether. Hope that helps!


Helps a bunch thanks, no white feces, no bloat (in him, I have had that I was pretty sure was over feeding as Epsom salts took it away) but thin since he arrived and not growing much, like all the others are

[dkeef]

According to kenny, some just arent gonna grow or be fat no matter what we do.
I accept this.

[LizStreithorst]

Worms are easily identified under a scope but I don't imagine yu have one. White poo is the rusult of of hex. FIf they appear otherwise healthy, fish that eat but don't gain weight generally have worms. My favorite wormer is Flubenol but there are several choices. I would treat the entire tank.

[MKD]

it depends on the situation. if I try to grow out other ones, then I leave it in the tank. they are cichlid and there are always strongest and weakest in the group. if you take it, someone else will take that place. it also can be your superhero for new fish qt.

[Ryan]

it depends on the situation. if I try to grow out other ones, then I leave it in the tank. they are cichlid and there are always strongest and weakest in the group. if you take it, someone else will take that place. it also can be your superhero for new fish qt.

I agree with this. Any time I've removed a runt, another discus will take its place. The only way to really prevent this is to buy all your discus at adult size. If you grow out a group, know that one or two will not grow well. Leave them there and hopefully the rest will.

I don't think runts are automatically sickly. They should still eat and act normally. If a fish is dark and cowering in the back corner of a tank, it's either getting bullied or it's sick. Healthy discus, whether runts or not, should be out swimming around and eating. There are some discus that remain sickly no matter how often you medicate them and IMO those should probably just be culled. My guess is that they're probably genetically very weak fish.

[8ftbed]

I scored a handful of runts, stunts and goobers from a cull tank destined for death row. The breeder had a keen eye. They've gradually thinned out. Started with 11 and there's 5 left. Two Dark Angels began to prosper and moved in with some others. The last 3 little farts finally got kicked to a 10g tank. They're only about the size of fifty cent pieces I guess. Well, I'd went to a local retention pond this week to catch some stunted bluegill for catfish bait. When I got home, they went into an empty coffee can in the beer/bait fridge. That afternoon I went to get a few out and go try a new spot and WTH!! There was one still alive. Fine... I took it down and threw it in the 10g tank with the runts. :)

Blue gill is alive and wanting to hide whenever I entered today but the trio of ruscus are out, fins fully erect. Maybe I found a new dither fish. :) That shallow retention pond is hot, so the 83* in the ruscus tank is no problem.

Runts, stunts and goobers. Josie told me everyone should have a tank of those.

[dkeef]

Before when i visit some of simply members house to check out or buy their fish, i was expecting all show quality ones.
After i see them, theres always some really ugly ones in there as well.
So im not the only one failing to keep all discus in top shape afterall!
But luckily, most are in top shape.

[dkeef]

well i know the fate of my runt. he died this morning.
was one of my first discus from kenny.
took him a month to eat but was the runt of the group the whole time. stopped eating few weeks ago and died today.
everyone else is fine.
is this likely a 1 occurence thing by weak one or could something else be going on?

[GeauxDiscus]

It's hard to say if he was genetically defective or sick, but I know this: Whenever I lose a fish, I always test my water parameters, and then closely watch my other fish for any signs of illness. I'm sure you were planning on it already, but just thought I would mention it.

And from reading the other posts, it makes me happy to know I'm not the only one with a few rejects that I just can't bring myself to reject! LOL

[Skip]

Runt and stunted.. two different conditions

[BODYDUB]

I gotta ask... when we say runts, what size are we talking about as adults?

I'm asking because I've had 2 over the past 2 years that "I" consider runts, but they were both about 6". So what, exactly is considered runt size? I know mine weren't actually runts...they were just normal sized discus in a tank full of giants. LOL

To me being a runt is not about size, because they still have some potential to grow. Just not as nice as some of their siblings. Then again there could be non-runts are smaller than runts..........



Runt and stunted.. two different conditions

So what about a runt that is stunted?????

[dkeef]

id say runt can more easily turn into stunt....

[yim11]

runt is caused by nature, stunt is caused by keeper.

[musicmarn1]

You guys are my heros, reading this and learning a teeny fraction more, especially that eating and not growing = worms (probably, it's not bullying that I can see) is ace. Runts stunts and goober lover tee shirt is being ordered for sure ! Found out results of my joe Gargas water (well) analysis today and I'm going to need a water softener then 80 20 RO mix he said, he raises discus too. Having these insights is just beyond precious and its free !

[8ftbed]

Speaking of Kenny, my last discus came from him. A trio that wer pretty uniform on receipt. now there's one markedly smaller, although it acts and feeds like all of em. I guess in the wild, the smaller ones get picked off which results in pretty uniform size schools.

[mastermamo]

I've set up a tank just for runts and stunts cos u gotta love these little guys. I would not trade them for the world

Here's a pic
Excuse the quality as they were taking a med bath

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/15/6una2apu.jpg

[Madaboutdiscus]

I've set up a tank just for runts and stunts cos u gotta love these little guys. I would not trade them for the world

Here's a pic
Excuse the quality as they were taking a med bath

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/15/6una2apu.jpg

+1

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

[mastermamo]

Here they are today looking so much better

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/15/e7u6ygat.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/15/ru2ana7e.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/15/aqupenyg.jpg

God bless their little hearts

[WaterDog]

Another possible option with runts is to place a partition (sheet of 1/4" acrylic, drilled with holes, make it a little wider than the depth of your tank front to back so you can wedge it tight) into your tank to physically separate them from the bullies. That is if their runt status isn't the result of sickness of course.
Once they grow to the size of your others remove the partition. I've done it before and it worked very well.

[GeauxDiscus]

[QUOTE=mastermamo;1029964]I've set up a tank just for runts and stunts cos u gotta love these little guys. I would not trade them for the world
QUOTE]

Good for you! :)

[musicmarn1]

YEY i REALLY hope that Toni posts her short bus in this thread now that you went first :) hehe i am not posting stunty runty, i think everyone would throw tomatoes at me to KILL HIM NOW !!!! he is so deformed and small, he is my quazimodo.

but if he eats and is happy thats ok right, if he gets sick or frail or is picked on, he was never really very runty just very very stunty.... ill treat him just the same as if he were Kenny's prize discus in my tank! ie the best i can and with much help from you all. so hopefully i dont get locked out of the forum for keeping such an abomination.

Again so really great to meet you Mo ! your doing a wonderful thing for these fish and i really LOVE seeing love and care for all of them it touches me deeply to hear that amongst some here , the misfits, the rejects, the ones who never reached their potential get a tank all their own :)

[Madaboutdiscus]

I have a quasimodo as well. You just gotta love em no matter what.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

[strawberryblonde]

YEY i REALLY hope that Toni posts her short bus in this thread now that you went first :) hehe i am not posting stunty runty, i think everyone would throw tomatoes at me to KILL HIM NOW !!!! he is so deformed and small, he is my quazimodo.


Ok, here's a pic of one of my "runts". The other one died during my 9 month battle to cure the stuff that eventually wiped out 6 of my favorite 9 discus, so no pics of her.

The first pic is lil runty hanging out in the tank with her buddy, my 9" MR. She looks TEENSY next to him. Well, she looks tiny next to ALL my other discus, but he just makes it even worse for her. LOL

80111

And this is her in a tank with a 3.5" discus. She was keeping him company for a week during my long and complicated QT process last month. You can see that she's not actually small, she's perfectly normal.
80112

My problem is what to do with these "runt" discus when they crop up in my tank. They can't really compete for food along side discus that are 3" larger and they tend to get shunned or picked on. I'd put them into a tank of their own, but there have only been 2 of them!

[dkeef]

I guess if they died like mine at least we wont have to worry what to do with them.

[mastermamo]

YEY i REALLY hope that Toni posts her short bus in this thread now that you went first :) hehe i am not posting stunty runty, i think everyone would throw tomatoes at me to KILL HIM NOW !!!! he is so deformed and small, he is my quazimodo.

but if he eats and is happy thats ok right, if he gets sick or frail or is picked on, he was never really very runty just very very stunty.... ill treat him just the same as if he were Kenny's prize discus in my tank! ie the best i can and with much help from you all. so hopefully i dont get locked out of the forum for keeping such an abomination.

Again so really great to meet you Mo ! your doing a wonderful thing for these fish and i really LOVE seeing love and care for all of them it touches me deeply to hear that amongst some here , the misfits, the rejects, the ones who never reached their potential get a tank all their own :)

Every creature no matter how big, small, pretty, unattractive or runty is Gods hand at work. I'm not very religious but the world is the way it is due to our obsession with beauty. I think my runts are just as beautiful as their A grade counterparts. I would never ever give them away. Why u may ask? It's simple. I love them with all my heart. Yes u heard it here first. A human loves fish hahaha.

[mastermamo]

Ok, here's a pic of one of my "runts". The other one died during my 9 month battle to cure the stuff that eventually wiped out 6 of my favorite 9 discus, so no pics of her.

The first pic is lil runty hanging out in the tank with her buddy, my 9" MR. She looks TEENSY next to him. Well, she looks tiny next to ALL my other discus, but he just makes it even worse for her. LOL

80111

And this is her in a tank with a 3.5" discus. She was keeping him company for a week during my long and complicated QT process last month. You can see that she's not actually small, she's perfectly normal.
80112

My problem is what to do with these "runt" discus when they crop up in my tank. They can't really compete for food along side discus that are 3" larger and they tend to get shunned or picked on. I'd put them into a tank of their own, but there have only been 2 of them!

Looks beautiful. Put them in a tank and then go looking at your LFS for more runts. Build a runt tank like mine. Trust me, you won't regret it

[strawberryblonde]

Looks beautiful. Put them in a tank and then go looking at your LFS for more runts. Build a runt tank like mine. Trust me, you won't regret it


Oh heavens, I can see putting runts into a tank of their own if you have a group of them, but to actually go spend money at a LFS for runt discus who have been treated in who knows WHAT way by the LFS and may be carrying all kinds of pathogens into my house? PAY for low quality, diseased and deformed discus? And encourage my LFS to go buy MORE of them?

Trust me, I WOULD regret it!

I use my limited fish keeping budget to purchase healthy, vibrant discus from a sponsor with a good reputation, I don't throw it down the drain on runts from a LFS.

As I"ve said, I've only had 2 6" "runts" since I started raising discus, so it will most likely get to the point that I end up culling this one rather than watch it struggle daily for food in a tank full of 8"-9" discus.

[John_Nicholson]

When I cull I feed my to my dachshund's........

-john

[Skip]

perceptions of the beauty of runts or stunted fish changes with longer discus keeping experience..

[mastermamo]

When I cull I feed my to my dachshund's........

-john

Hmmm

[yim11]

Oh heavens, I can see putting runts into a tank of their own if you have a group of them, but to actually go spend money at a LFS for runt discus who have been treated in who knows WHAT way by the LFS and may be carrying all kinds of pathogens into my house? PAY for low quality, diseased and deformed discus? And encourage my LFS to go buy MORE of them?

Trust me, I WOULD regret it!

I use my limited fish keeping budget to purchase healthy, vibrant discus from a sponsor with a good reputation, I don't throw it down the drain on runts from a LFS.

As I"ve said, I've only had 2 6" "runts" since I started raising discus, so it will most likely get to the point that I end up culling this one rather than watch it struggle daily for food in a tank full of 8"-9" discus.

VERY well said. Makes absolutely no sense to own sub par fish when so many options for high quality fish are available.

[nc0gnet0]

There is a world of difference between a runt and a stunted discus. Most of the discus I see posted in this thread are not runts at all, but rather stunted, diseased, sickly looking fish.

[mastermamo]

There is a world of difference between a runt and a stunted discus. Most of the discus I see posted in this thread are not runts at all, but rather stunted, diseased, sickly looking fish.

Yes agreed but if u work hard enough almost any sick fish can be saved

[John_Nicholson]

Yes agreed but if u work hard enough almost any sick fish can be saved

but is it worth it? For the money that you spend chasing a disease you could replace it with a healthy discus. 99% of the time people do not take the time to find out what the real problem is. They guess and then start throwing meds at the fish. More times than not they are not even chasing the correct illness. Even if the fish lives though the treatment they are often stunted by either the disease or the treatment.

Start with healthy fish from a good supplier, feed then right, keep the water clean, and practice proper quarantine and you will PROBABLY never have an issue.

-john

[Second Hand Pat]

Yes agreed but if u work hard enough almost any sick fish can be saved

If you have worked carefully over the last three years to build up a group of quality fish for current or future breeding endeavors, or to just enjoy them makes absolutely no sense risking all that on a sick fish. Plus you can not save every fish. I know and have tried.

[mastermamo]

If you have worked carefully over the last three years to build up a group of quality fish for current or future breeding endeavors, or to just enjoy them makes absolutely no sense risking all that on a sick fish. Plus you can not save every fish. I know and have tried.

I'm not saying risk your prized fish in any way. All I'm saying is give the sick little ones a chance in a tank of their own. U saw my pics. If I'd given up on them I'd never have known they'd turn out this beautiful

[John_Nicholson]

I'm not saying risk your prized fish in any way. All I'm saying is give the sick little ones a chance in a tank of their own. U saw my pics. If I'd given up on them I'd never have known they'd turn out this beautiful

It all depends on your definition of beautiful. I looked briefly at the pictures and having fish of that quality in my tanks would drive me nuts. It all depends on your personal goals I guess.

-john

[Second Hand Pat]

M, you are fairly new to discus and in the beginning you feel that you want to save every one. Over time your goals and priorities change. If you start breeding discus culling is part of the process unless you intent to keep every fish. After a while you become overrun with fish and you have to make some choices. Sell/give away fish and/or cull some fish. As an ethical keeper/breeder you do not want to sell or give away subpar fish. Now if you wish to run a fish rescue then fine.

[mastermamo]

M, you are fairly new to discus and in the beginning you feel that you want to save every one. Over time your goals and priorities change. If you start breeding discus culling is part of the process unless you intent to keep every fish. After a while you become overrun with fish and you have to make some choices. Sell/give away fish and/or cull some fish. As an ethical keeper/breeder you do not want to sell or give away subpar fish. Now if you wish to run a fish rescue then fine.

Hi Pat

I'm about to open a specialised discus section in my LFS and a fish rescue division is part of it. I know it's impossible to keep all fish and I've lost a few in my time but with proper education I hope to start breeding proper stock so that unscrupulous wholesalers who are only out for a quick buck are exposed for what they are.

[nc0gnet0]

I hope to start breeding proper stock so that unscrupulous wholesalers who are only out for a quick buck are exposed for what they are.



I suggest you start by not buying the fish that oringinated from these unscrupulous wholesalers and trying to save them, doing so only perpetuates the issue.

[John_Nicholson]

I suggest you start by not buying the fish that oringinated from these unscrupulous wholesalers and trying to save them, doing so only perpetuates the issue.

LOL....


also do you know how you make a small fortune in the fish business............................start with a large fortune.......

-john

[dkeef]

M, you are fairly new to discus and in the beginning you feel that you want to save every one. Over time your goals and priorities change. If you start breeding discus culling is part of the process unless you intent to keep every fish. After a while you become overrun with fish and you have to make some choices. Sell/give away fish and/or cull some fish. As an ethical keeper/breeder you do not want to sell or give away subpar fish. Now if you wish to run a fish rescue then fine.


Pat or john, guys with years of experience.
When u guys first started with discus, did u guys keep every discus?
Im new also and think culling is not my thing either. My logic says makes more sense to give away runt or stunts than killing them. But i can see how it can lead to culling when u have hundreds and are breeding them.
But wanna know if the resistance to culling is normal for beginners.

[dkeef]

Btw, imo if anyone wanna make some decent fortune in fish then better breed petrochromis red bulu.
Dont even think its possible to get runts or stunts with those lol.

[John_Nicholson]

I got lucky...the first 6 discus I bought all lived and did well. They spent the first few months not doing well. I had been raising fish since I was 7 and I figured it had to be a water issue. In desperation I siphoned out all of the gravel and the rest is history. OUt of the first 6 fish I got 2 pairs. The other 2 fish were a 6 1/2 inch male and a 5 1/2 male. I sold them both. When I first started selling fish I would cull less. If someone came and bought 6 good fish I would often throw in one cull/slow grower just so the others would have someone to pick on. It would never fail that at some point in the future I would see a damned picture of that cull online associated with my name. The only way a cull leaves my fish house now is in the form of a dog turd.....but I do have some fat and happy dachshunds.......

-john

[strawberryblonde]

I'm not one of the experts that you mentioned, but I can tell you from first hand experience that culling discus is really hard at first!

I struggled for nearly a year with a group of discus that I knew were carriers of some nasty stuff. My refusal to just cull them right away ended up with me losing 6 of my 9 prized jumbo discus!

It took the gentle (but firm) advice of a trusted friend before I finally faced it head on and culled them. I hated doing it and felt horrible for days, but the result is that I now have three tanks of totally healthy discus who are doing their best to grow to jumbo size! Do I regret the culling? NOPE! Do I wish I'd had the guts to do it sooner? YES!!

What I learned from the experience:

1) ONLY buy quality discus from someone with a long and well earned reputation for selling healthy discus.

2) IF you do see a discus with a clear problem, or one that doesn't resolve itself fully with treatment, CULL it quickly and humanely...and move on.

3) See #1

[Second Hand Pat]

Dave, I have only been that this for three years so far from an expert but my first group of discus were wild fish and lost one when I went away for a long weekend. I replaced that fish with a new one and sold the group after about six months. I then bought a group of Tefe, Uatuma blues and Alenquer region fish all wilds. The Alenquer's starting darting/whirling and dieing. It took Andrew Soh to step in and lent a hand with these fish and I have the survivors today. All that darting/whirling and dieing taught me to cull and do it quick. With wild fish I think there are more unknowns then with domestics.

I have some subpar fish today that I will most likely cull. Like John I do not want those suckers to come back and haunt me. I love my fish but I also wear a fish farmers hat.

[nc0gnet0]

LOL....


also do you know how you make a small fortune in the fish business............................start with a large fortune.......

-john

Or just take your deformed fish, give them a fancy name like bulldog, and sell them for a premium.

[mastermamo]

I suggest you start by not buying the fish that oringinated from these unscrupulous wholesalers and trying to save them, doing so only perpetuates the issue.

My fish are going to be A grade imports and German flagellate free fish as well. I'm not trying to keep all the fish. All I'm saying is I never give up on a sick fish. I fully understand everyone's point of view on culling but personally I will not do it.

[nc0gnet0]

I fully understand everyone's point of view on culling but personally I will not do it.

So then, you will be everybit as unscrupulous as the wholesalers, or, your going to need several hundred tanks. Even the best of the best pairs have fry that need to be culled, alot more than you might think.

[mastermamo]

So then, you will be everybit as unscrupulous as the wholesalers, or, your going to need several hundred tanks. Even the best of the best pairs have fry that need to be culled, alot more than you might think.

I think u misunderstood me. I'm not breeding fish. I'm importing them as adults and semi adults. Should I get to the point of breeding I then fully understand that there will be offspring that need to be culled and at that point I will revisit this. Unscrupulous dealers sell fish with diseases etc. I will do no such thing. All I am trying to say is the fish I have raised from near death are close to my heart and I won't kill them. Plz try to understand where I am coming from.

[100fuegos]

You will end up cross contaminating everything and loosing your German flagellates free grade A fish.

[mastermamo]

You will end up cross contaminating everything and loosing your German flagellates free grade A fish.

Oh dear me.
Let me try explaining...again
My runts that are with me since I began my discus journey I will never cull.
If I had to look after a few sick fish I would never mix them with my A grades. They would live in their own tank permanently

All my nets, cleaning material etc are labeled and categorised so there's no risk of cross contamination.

[John_Nicholson]

Are you aware that some illnesses are transmitted though the air? So even if the fish are in a separate tank, in a separate room you can still contaminate your healthy stock.

-john

P.S. I understand what you are thinking. You are living at least a little bit in a dream world.

[mastermamo]

Are you aware that some illnesses are transmitted though the air? So even if the fish are in a separate tank, in a separate room you can still contaminate your healthy stock.

-john

P.S. I understand what you are thinking. You are living at least a little bit in a dream world.

I honestly did not know there were airborne fish sicknesses. Plz tell me what these are. You have really peeked my interest now

[mastermamo]

I honestly did not know there were airborne fish sicknesses. Plz tell me what these are. You have really peeked my interest now

EDIT: isn't Discus plague a thing of the past or is it still around?

[John_Nicholson]

I would suggest flying in for the huge NADA show in Austin Texas in 2014. We will have speakers from the University of Florida talking about all of these items. I am not a disease export. I believe in buying healthy stock, feeding well, and changing lots of water so I don't normally have disease issues.

-john

[nc0gnet0]

I am not a disease export.

I think I just bit clean through my tongue...........

:angel:

[musicmarn1]

Guys ! Blimey are you saying that someone who STARTED with sub par fish, and moved up, cannot keep a tank of fish who are at least healthy but their SHAPE is just below full potential due to admitted mistakes from the care giver? i would find it very disturbing to have to kill fish that have given me great pleasure in raising, but when i buy more fish and get better and better at raising them, i would have to go back and kill fish who are not as amazing as the ones i now consider myself worthy of getting.

What M is saying, is that he has had several fish for years that he was not good enough to raise to full potential when they were younger, he now has proven himself, in the photos of the much healthier , potential reaching fish. to have sentimental value for ANY animal is absolutely ok. this sounds a bit snobbish to me we are NOT talking about disease or sickness we are talking about shape potential not reached.

if you guys are more serious about keeping only pure quality thats fine too, but to knock someone for CARING for an animal in their care will get me a bit upset.

[John_Nicholson]

If he wants to get in business and only deal in grade A fish he needs to get use to killing them. If he is not willing to do that there is no need for him to be in business. There are some diseases that cen hide for a long time. If he wants to get seriuos about it then by God get seriuos about it. If he wants to stay a hobbyist then carry on as he is. Also there is nothing wrong with being a hobbyist.

-john

[Madaboutdiscus]

Guys ! Blimey are you saying that someone who STARTED with sub par fish, and moved up, cannot keep a tank of fish who are at least healthy but their SHAPE is just below full potential due to admitted mistakes from the care giver? i would find it very disturbing to have to kill fish that have given me great pleasure in raising, but when i buy more fish and get better and better at raising them, i would have to go back and kill fish who are not as amazing as the ones i now consider myself worthy of getting.

What M is saying, is that he has had several fish for years that he was not good enough to raise to full potential when they were younger, he now has proven himself, in the photos of the much healthier , potential reaching fish. to have sentimental value for ANY animal is absolutely ok. this sounds a bit snobbish to me we are NOT talking about disease or sickness we are talking about shape potential not reached.

if you guys are more serious about keeping only pure quality thats fine too, but to knock someone for CARING for an animal in their care will get me a bit upset.

+1

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

[Madaboutdiscus]

If he wants to get in business and only deal in grade A fish he needs to get use to killing them. If he is not willing to do that there is no need for him to be in business. There are some diseases that cen hide for a long time. If he wants to get seriuos about it then by God get seriuos about it. If he wants to stay a hobbyist then carry on as he is. Also there is nothing wrong with being a hobbyist.

-john

Agree here too.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

[strawberryblonde]

Guys ! Blimey are you saying that someone who STARTED with sub par fish, and moved up, cannot keep a tank of fish who are at least healthy but their SHAPE is just below full potential due to admitted mistakes from the care giver? i would find it very disturbing to have to kill fish that have given me great pleasure in raising, but when i buy more fish and get better and better at raising them, i would have to go back and kill fish who are not as amazing as the ones i now consider myself worthy of getting.

What M is saying, is that he has had several fish for years that he was not good enough to raise to full potential when they were younger, he now has proven himself, in the photos of the much healthier , potential reaching fish. to have sentimental value for ANY animal is absolutely ok. this sounds a bit snobbish to me we are NOT talking about disease or sickness we are talking about shape potential not reached.

if you guys are more serious about keeping only pure quality thats fine too, but to knock someone for CARING for an animal in their care will get me a bit upset.

Hi Marnie,

No, that's not all that he's saying, and that's the part that needs to be clarified and expounded on for anyone who might read this thread and think that it's perfectly ok, or that it's a humanitarian act to buy sick discus on purpose in order to save them.

If you go back and read each post, you'll see what I'm talking about. Mastermamo specifically recommended to me that I put my ONE 6" runt into a separate tank and then go buy some runts and sick discus from a LFS to fill up the tank.

He's also stated that he intends to keep a hospital setup in his home to rehabilitate sick discus and that he will never cull them, but in the same breath says that he's going to import grade A, disease free discus in order to sell them and promote the hobby. These two things aren't compatible with one another.

If that's a personal choice that he makes for himself, then he will live with whatever possible consequences there may be, but it would be wrong of me not to speak up so that others coming after him who read this thread don't follow along blindly believing that it's "ok" to do this and not understanding the real risks of refusing to cull chronically sick discus or genetically inferior fish.

[musicmarn1]

then i apologize because i missed that !! i thought from several threads i have read, that he was saying that stunting through mistakes (from my journey i got that from) and the start of this thread, that learning from those fish and honoring them, instead of discarding and starting again, was his way of seeing himself grow. with just stunted not sick fish. i would not want to risk the whole heard to save the cow...but i would TRY and treat with the help of this forum a fish (like my tapeworm example, kenny said treat whole tank with prazi, its my first med in now 7 months and again come the cold sweats using a med because i READ the posts and understand young fish are very stressed by meds) but also if experienced people tell me treat the fish, ill treat the darn fish. if everyone said cull it with kindness, i would do that if i believed in those people because thats why im here, to learn.

BUT to have a tank of fish that are stunted or runted and are not posing a threat to others through constant illness and weakness, is just fine in my humble, truly really humble opinion, to try and learn from those fish WE messed with, and we let down in some way is going to be part of many a newbie journey, i see threads on here daily with such fish :) i rescued three total fish in severe distress but they were NOT sick, though of course i recognize such fish can absolutely GET sick by being so weak and stressed. i did let my only death die from bullying before i realized it was that serious.

QT is something i learned several months into this forum, never ever again, i didnt have a bad experience i just learned. that proper QT regardless of source is important. i wont question it again, took me two months to learn why aging water was so important. i did the reading daily but i saw immediate difference in happiness levels, plants in the tank did another leap for my fish, i upped my water changes to now 90% daily i was SCARED of doing that early on, to stress them out, now they play,
and get hungry while i do it, in anticipation of the new water. i had bullying now i dont. but i have a stunt (rescue not made) and the other one my avatar was a rescue she is growing out SO well and is so healthy and vital its not real, i read it wrong, i was thinking people were telling ME to kill those fish so again, i took it wrong, my bad.

i thought my stunty runty would tell me when its time by not being such a damn pain in the *** getting all the food and being in everyone's business. i fully expect to not see him live a long healthy life, it would not be fair to let him suffer i wont throw the sink at him because i know his body wont take it, but im glad i rescued him :) i personally felt that starting out with sub par , but not yet sick fish, ( i saw them come in in glowing health and watched them in the tank, day by day deteriorating in a gravel overly stocked, low temp tank..for about two weeks and i did a deal that let me also improve conditions and reduce amounts of further fish) was a good way to learn. i KNEW i could improve their lot, not worsen it like i would be with glorious fish and i was new i did not know about sponsors. now i do.

i have bare tanks, not planted for all but two discus who are after this next QT going to be split up and rejoin the bigger sized school, so im learning daily and yet the fish i learn on will not be discarded or culled unless its in their best interests or they truly represent a danger to the others OR someone i trust like you Toni, or many others here, say do it dont think just trust and do it.

there i feel better now haha

[yim11]

I think the gap in understanding here is between those who do or have owned high quality fish vs those that have not. For those that own high quality fish we simply cannot understand how there would ever be a place for stunted/runted/sick fish. That water and tank space is much more better utilized by quality fish. The resources (food/water/meds/etc) needed for sub par fish cannot be justified if they could be used for quality fish.

For those that have not owned high quality fish, you really have something to look forward to! ;)

[nc0gnet0]

I think u misunderstood me. I'm not breeding fish. I'm importing them as adults and semi adults. Should I get to the point of breeding I then fully understand that there will be offspring that need to be culled and at that point I will revisit this. Unscrupulous dealers sell fish with diseases etc. I will do no such thing. All I am trying to say is the fish I have raised from near death are close to my heart and I won't kill them. Plz try to understand where I am coming from.

I didn't misunderstand you at all.........


I hope to start breeding proper stock so that unscrupulous wholesalers


I think you don't understand yourself........

[Ryan]

It really boils down to your intent as a discus owner. If you want to form a discus rescue, that's fine. But please allow me to make a couple of points that you should always consider:

1. If you buy runted/stunted fish from an LFS, you are sending a message to your LFS (and thus, their supplier) that there is a demand for these poor quality discus. They are making money by selling you a poor quality fish at a premium price. This exacerbates the situation we've had for years, particularly in the US, where discus in poor condition are being distributed to the general public. If you go through Simply, you'll see that two of our most active sections are the Beginners section and the Disease section. There is a reason for this. People unknowingly purchase bad fish from an LFS and then aren't sure what to do when their fish is sick/not eating/skittish. This cycle can't be broken until people stop buying terrible quality fish from the LFS. This doesn't just apply to discus, but any fish. Unfortunately there are those who will feel sad for these fish and go on a mission to "save" them, and so you end up with the LFS bringing in more because they know they can pawn them off on people.

2. Discus live for a long time. Sure, the sickly stunted fish probably don't stick around long, but let's say you manage to treat it and clean it up and you end up with a living fish that has an appetite and will to live, but is only 2 - 3" and not very attractive. Then let's say you wind up with a tankful of these. Are you really willing to keep them for years? Multiple years is a long time. What if your plans change, you have to move, your lose your job, you lose interest in fish, you decide you want better fish, and so on? I see it all the time. People constantly run into situations where they end up giving up all their stock. Do you pass them off to some unsuspecting person? Do you dump them at the LFS to start the cycle over? Do you then make the decision to cull them? Out of the thousands of discus hobbyists who've posted here and read this forum, very few can probably show me fish they've had for 5+ years. That goes for me, too! The difference is that I have quality stock that can be easily sold/rehomed because they're in good shape. What of the hobbyist who has runts and culls?

One thing I learned at Simply long ago is that you never pass off low quality fish to anyone else, even if it's free! I've seen countless situations here in the past where a person posts pictures of terrible quality fish and says, "Look at my babies! I got them from Breeder ABC!" and then everyone jumps on the bandwagon and talks about how fish of that quality never should have been sold, Breeder ABC should know better, etc. Then you find out later from Breeder ABC that these were freebies and were never meant to be quality fish. What you realize, very quickly, is that your entire reputation as a hobbyist and as a seller can hinge on those sorts of transactions. You send one batch of culls to someone, even if they're free, and suddenly people think you either A) are knowingly selling poor stock to unsuspecting people, or B) don't have an eye for quality stock. This is why I cull fry heavily and I inspect every fish that leaves my house. It's also why I encourage anyone buying cichlid fry from me to let me know if they have any issues, so that I can replace the fish or refund their money. I'm sure most of the breeders here, big or small, will agree that they have similar practices in place. We don't cull because we like to, we do it because we are striving to provide the highest quality fish we can to this hobby, and when you're raising hundreds to thousands of fry a year, you do not have tank space to keep every fish with a deformed fin, a short gill plate, a chipped eye, or a football shape.

By all means, if you want to run a discus sanctuary and keep all the runts and oddballs, that's your business. Some people enjoy that. I have one tank at my house full of odd cichlids that have been injured, blinded, and whatnot because I can't sell them but I don't want to cull them. But if you are going down that path, know why you're doing it, and why you're the exception and not the rule. Also know that you're probably the end of the line for those fish you're taking in, because most people won't want small, misshapen discus if you decide to get rid of them. At that point it would be unethical to give them to an LFS or pawn them off on an inexperienced hobbyist, IMO, so your last resort would be to cull them anyway.

[mastermamo]

Ah finally someone who understands.

Thanks for your comments Ryan

Appreciated

M

[John_Nicholson]

I think there are several of us that understand we just don't like to type as much as Ryan does.....

-john

[Ryan]

Lol

[mastermamo]

I think there are several of us that understand we just don't like to type as much as Ryan does.....

-john

Ryan seems like he has a very good understanding of what I was trying to say and I really appreciate his feedback.

Thanks Ryan

[dkeef]

Ryan usually is the best in doing that.

[GeauxDiscus]

Toni, John, Ryan - I just learned a lot from reading your posts. Even though I plan to stay a hobbyist, and I currently have no plans to be a breeder, I actually just learned a lot from the breeder's viewpoint. Thanks for the insights.

[mee]

I have kept many cichlids and seen many runts, and although parasites and bad keeping can definitely play a part, I have a pretty good track record of keeping runts healthy and often getting them eventually to full size or near enough that most wouldn't notice. My take is that runts occur for many reasons, primarily nature puts them there as a means of ensuring survival of species during times of little available food, or simply because they often go unnoticed by predators and can more easily hide. Other reasons can include under developed organs such as stomach or intestines which keep them from eating much... if a fish with underdeveloped organs lives long enough they can develop and eventually the fish will become a more vigorous eater and this is when runts can become super stars, because they sometimes learn to defend themselves and quickly escape from danger while they are tiny, but as they finally bulk up they retain these skills, and even wisdom if you will, but now with the muscle to back it up. I have had many a runt become alpha males in time, and even more often have the most beautiful colors in the tank. For this reason I always do my best to keep runts healthy. Often I find a certain food like Brine shrimp that runts are more willing to take, so after fattening the tank on their favorite food I then do a second feeding of the runts favorite food while the others are too full to compete with him or her. My ultimate runt story was a Mpimbwe Gibberosa fry (frontosa) who I was tumbling with about 20 others, when his egg sack fell off about 10 days prematurely. Usually a few days before the egg sack is fully absorbed I feed the fry spirulina, so I went on a bit of gut feeling, and a bit more hope and separated the fry from the group feeding him spirulina as many times a day as I could manage (often 5 to 7) some days I simply couldn't manage to get to him for awhile and he would quickly become very thin, but I just kept at it feeding him as frequently as possible, by the times the others absorbed their sacks he was also free swimming but at about 1/5th their size he looked tiny and very fragile. I continued feeding him more frequently than the group and after about another 2 weeks he almost looked like he should have when the others absorbed their sacks. I kept him alone for another two weeks feeding him spirulina and Artemia (forgot the spelling) doing my best to fatten him up so he could join the others, finally after about a month when the others were 2 inches he was a good inch, so I decided he was too big to eat and he now looked like a normal fry if that normal fry was a month younger (his striping was great due to all the spirulina)... After another month in the grow out tank he had nearly caught up with the others, and soon after I could no longer be sure which one he was. Now if I was running a large fish operation would I have the time or will to do this? Perhaps not, but for those with just a runt or two, there are ways albeit sometimes extreme to keep these little ones healthy and even thriving... but yes sometimes they just don't make it no matter what we do.

[nc0gnet0]

I have kept many cichlids .................................................. ..........................it no matter what we do.

A much stronger case can be made by taking nearly the opposite of everythnig you just said here. Runts are not placed by nature as a means of ensuring the survival of the species, rather they are placed there to ensure the survival of other species. The process is called natural selection and survival of the fittest. The week get eaten.

[yim11]

My take is that runts occur for many reasons, primarily nature puts them there as a means of ensuring survival of species during times of little available food, or simply because they often go unnoticed by predators and can more easily hide. Other reasons can include under developed organs such as stomach or intestines which keep them from eating much... if a fish with underdeveloped organs lives long enough they can develop and eventually the fish will become a more vigorous eater and this is when runts can become super stars, because they sometimes learn to defend themselves and quickly escape from danger while they are tiny, but as they finally bulk up they retain these skills, and even wisdom if you will, but now with the muscle to back it up.

LOL as Darwin rolls in his grave...

This is incorrect. You rarely see runts in nature [that survive to adults]. They are inferior to the species and therefor are used as a food source for others as Rick mentions but mostly to remove those poor genes from the pool. They don't take their inferior qualities and become some super species, they get eaten - in nature. If what you say was true then you would see significant size degradation for a species. You would see a change in the internal anatomy of a species, we don't.

What we do with them in our tanks is obviously a totally different story for some.

[mastermamo]

Lol I love this thread. It's just awesome

[John_Nicholson]

A much stronger case can be made by taking nearly the opposite of everythnig you just said here. Runts are not placed by nature as a means of ensuring the survival of the species, rather they are placed there to ensure the survival of other species. The process is called natural selection and survival of the fittest. The week get eaten.


I agree completely with Rick and Jim. You are suffering from a case of backwards logic. You began with a thought that you wanted to prove and then worked to make everything fit your little fantasy.

-john

[mee]

If what you say was true then you would see significant size degradation for a species. You would see a change in the internal anatomy of a species, we don't."

Just to name one of many examples in the Cichlid world alone, there are African shell dwellers which have males of two sizes. One is the normal size male which is too small to enter the shells of the females and another is midget males which sneak matings by entering the shells.

Are all runts healthy and destined for success in nature? No. But as wild caught runts which many forum members have in their own tank should suggest, they are not all doomed to be lunch for a predator. It is like the butterflies that have one variation that is more easy to see for predators and is taken out easier.. yes it happens now, but if the tables are turned and that predator vanishes being replaced by another that notices the main populations color more easily, soon the odd color butterfly becomes the standard and the once mainstream colored individuals are the rarity. Pigmy species exist for a reason, and giants exist for a reason. Mutations can all have advantages and disadvantages depending on the current environment of the species. If food supply is scarce a smaller animal has a better chance of survival, and can lead a species towards a smaller size.

and john for the record, your guys are harping on one sentence out of my albeit lengthy comment. I stand by it except I would probably remove the word primarily.. meaning runts occur for many reasons.. If you don't realize the do sometimes evolve in an advantageous way it is your blunder, not mine.

Finally, Not all runts are weak. That is the point I was making.

[Ryan]

Skip, the hijack memes are totally unnecessary, especially considering this thread is still on topic. People asked about runts, we are having a conversation about runted/stunted fish and how each hobbyist deals with them.

I'm going to echo John, Rick, and Jim. In the wild, fish have potentially hundreds of offspring. How many survive? The weak, sickly, and small ones get picked off. In an aquarium environment, it's our job as breeders to do the weeding. Again, if hobbyists want to invest a bunch of time and effort into caring for those sub-par fish, it's their prerogative. Just realize that these are probably not the fish you'd want to use as breeding stock.

We could get into the argument that most tank-raised discus wouldn't survive in the wild because their flashy colors would attract predators, but that's a whole new can of worms.

[mastermamo]

Woah this is now getting a little too heated

[Skip]

The hijack reference is to i am getting lost to WHO is RESPONDING to WHO and from WHERE.. other people besides the OP are inputting their questions so i have to keep going back to different pages to see what was being referred too.. some are quoting an answer to another another answer that was quoted before that.. so to me.. its like being in a room where everybody is talking at once, kind of like when i am with my family.. :)

[nc0gnet0]

Just to name one of many examples in the Cichlid world alone, there are African shell dwellers which have males of two sizes. One is the normal size male which is too small to enter the shells of the females and another is midget males which sneak matings by entering the shells.


Your doing your damdest to cite oddball examples to support your claim. Apples and oranges. Are there examples in the wild in which a smaller specimin might be better adapted to survive? Yes, of course there is. Is that the case with the fish in which we are discussing? Absolutely not. And for the record, evolution happens over a very long period of time. It's a very slow gradual process, not the result of a magical occurence in which for some of the wall reason you decide to make up, suddenly a runt is better adapted to survive.


But as wild caught runts which many forum members have in their own tank should suggest, they are not all doomed to be lunch for a predator.

The few that do survive have only the slimmest of chances of pro-creating anyways, and that is if they are even fertile to begin with.


If food supply is scarce a smaller animal has a better chance of survival, and can lead a species towards a smaller size.


Another falacy. In the absence of food (short term) the larger will have more fat stored up and be able to withstand a longer duration. In the scarcity of food, the smaller ones will again be out competed by the larger ones, starve and die. Nature makes adjustments to variation in food supply by population density, not by size of the species....where you come up with some of these assumptions is beyond me.


If you don't realize the do sometimes evolve in an advantageous way it is your blunder, not mine.

The blunder is you don't seem to understand evoluiton. Runts are not mutations.

[mee]

I think some are tying too hard to make my statement into more than the single sentence it was, and putting many words into my mouth.

I respect you all as discus breeders, but I think some of you jump into conflict mode way too quick. I am unable to use reply with quote right now do to computer problems, so it is hard to continue this correctly, but put shortly it was said I was completely wrong about runts, and that they never survive and never lead to evolution. I believe I substantially proved they can and do with the shell dwelling example alone. I stated with low food supply runts can also have advantages, I never said short term or long term, but logic would dictate if I am logical which many assume I am not, that I am referring to long term. Lowering population density is one means of dealing with food supply issues, but things are not as black and white in the evolution tree as you are making it out to be. And as for evolution happening very slowly, spend 10 years observing populations in lake Victoria and then tell me if you have changed your view.

With many animals runts are indeed doomed, but with territorial fish that don't need to swim great distances at speed and where the simple addition of tighter root systems can greatly turn the tables, lack of size is not always the deciding factor in survival.

You can disagree with me all you want but I really think some on this forum need to learn to disagree without being so much on the offensive. I frankly doesn't bother me, as I have seen it in other forums, but some very bright people can be wrong, and discouraging them by basically calling them stupid can leave you with a very dull forum without free thinking individuals.

[musicmarn1]

I think the best answer I've seen to his question, is that just runt has its place in the group, take it out (we are dealing with so many variables, big group or small, what size difference, hobbyists environment enrichment ie hiding places etc, and water quality) and they most likely pick a new pecking order. I'm asking is that necessarily true! I don't know so I experimented.

I then see that once stunted, weak and sickly, culls can be justified. Or you can set up hospital tank and help the stunt, but disease spreads so you do risk other fish, but that is your call and your hygiene techniques and diligence just like any vet hospital I worked in, are important.

But the op question, what happens if we don't remove the runt or we DO remove the runt?

I think there are a few common outcomes

There is natural bullying, I had extreme bullying too, but only for two reasons

One, water quality pissing off my discus, early days only, not last few months. After reading here daily.
Two environment, small tnk, a pair forming or just more privacy screens needed. Since I fixed these I put ALL my fish together and formerly bullied fish are now completely stress free, they were runted, not stunted.
I put the now whole mixed group of 11 discus into a 125 and into a 55g (Juvi not grown! And I had a leak and I'm cleaning like a madwoman so it's all good)
No difference in bullying once the above issues were dressed I no longer have Any bullying

Now the fish that were runt,are neither, just in a bigger school, better environment.

I ordered clove oil for my stunt. Lets not discuss it, Ie dont make me feel bad for my decision please. I love him and I gave him a good life but I now have some stunning quality fish. I think he is weak enough that its the sensible thing to do. If he was as feisty as when I first helped him recover from his lfs ordeal I wouldn't do it but he isn't and I'm reading he puts other fish at risk. I will however microscope him.I need to research threads for that. Or go to my vet and have him show me. I will post results so you can learn with me. (Those who haven't done that)

In summary, whilst this occurs naturally (bullying, runts) in the wild. The answer should be what can we do on the checklist to improve it, I'm betting strawberry's or John's or Pats etc runt is better than my best fish.

Anyone with UBER discus not have any smaller stock? If its not severe bullying as op describes, visible signs of stress often, and one fish is just a bit smaller, do you leave it alone?


i like everyone else have couple runts in my group. basically the smallest ones.
altho they try to compete for food etc and are eating, i can see they r stressed from whatever reasons...i suspect stress from just being bullied by others from time to time. (its not constant)
some are getting skinny or hide in back.
what r the ultimate fate of the runts?
do they eventually die or can they grow well without stunting and be like the other dominant ones?

[mastermamo]

I agree with Mee. Everything has its place in nature. There's really no need for ppl to get this irate and defensive. If you want to keep runts then do. I love my runts but I'm not trying to breed them or sell them.

Perhaps an admin should now close this thread before it gets nasty

M

[John_Nicholson]

No need to close this thread. It has not gotten out of hand at all.

mee i follow you logic but I think you are making some jumps that are not valid. I mean you could win the lottery, you could get hit by lightening, you could date a super model but odds are that is not going to happen. Same thin g apples here. While your examples could happen they are not really that likely. In my humble opinion.

-john

[strawberryblonde]

I think the best answer I've seen to his question, is that just runt has its place in the group, take it out (we are dealing with so many variables, big group or small, what size difference, hobbyists environment enrichment ie hiding places etc, and water quality) and they most likely pick a new pecking order. I'm asking is that necessarily true! I don't know so I experimented.

I then see that once stunted, weak and sickly, culls can be justified. Or you can set up hospital tank and help the stunt, but disease spreads so you do risk other fish, but that is your call and your hygiene techniques and diligence just like any vet hospital I worked in, are important.

But the op question, what happens if we don't remove the runt or we DO remove the runt?

I think there are a few common outcomes

There is natural bullying, I had extreme bullying too, but only for two reasons

One, water quality pissing off my discus, early days only, not last few months. After reading here daily.
Two environment, small tnk, a pair forming or just more privacy screens needed. Since I fixed these I put ALL my fish together and formerly bullied fish are now completely stress free, they were runted, not stunted.
I put the now whole mixed group of 11 discus into a 125 and into a 55g (Juvi not grown! And I had a leak and I'm cleaning like a madwoman so it's all good)
No difference in bullying once the above issues were dressed I no longer have Any bullying

Now the fish that were runt,are neither, just in a bigger school, better environment.

I ordered clove oil for my stunt. Lets not discuss it, Ie dont make me feel bad for my decision please. I love him and I gave him a good life but I now have some stunning quality fish. I think he is weak enough that its the sensible thing to do. If he was as feisty as when I first helped him recover from his lfs ordeal I wouldn't do it but he isn't and I'm reading he puts other fish at risk. I will however microscope him.I need to research threads for that. Or go to my vet and have him show me. I will post results so you can learn with me. (Those who haven't done that)

In summary, whilst this occurs naturally (bullying, runts) in the wild. The answer should be what can we do on the checklist to improve it, I'm betting strawberry's or John's or Pats etc runt is better than my best fish.

Anyone with UBER discus not have any smaller stock? If its not severe bullying as op describes, visible signs of stress often, and one fish is just a bit smaller, do you leave it alone?

Here's a perfect reason for why this thread doesn't need to be closed! =)

Plenty of newcomers and even some of us older timers (I'm not nearly as old as a few of the guys here) can learn new tricks by getting involved in these threads.

Just to be really clear, runts happen. You can tell the difference between a runt and a stunted discus by the size of the eyes in proportion to the body, etc. AND, I really feel the need to mention that until a discus is at least 2 years old, don't assume that it's a runt just because it's smaller than the rest of the herd!

I have two perfect examples for ya.

First up was Number Five. He was so named because my first group of discus numbered five, and he was always at the back of the pack. Smaller, shyer, less willing to eat because he was shoved aside at feeding times. He learned stealth eating and got quite good at it. There was nothing wrong with him, so I left him in the tank and just clucked over his "small" size.... and rejoiced when he managed to hit 6" at a year old. He continued to grow long past the point that the other jumbo's all stopped growing. By 2 years old he'd reached 8"! So it turned out that he wasn't actually a runt, he simply grew more slowly than the others.

My second surprising "runt" was Fred, Jr., my flachen from my second batch of Stendkers. He grew to a respectable 7" by the time he was 18 months old and I thought he was a nice fish, not spectacular, but nice. He had a growth spurt at 22 months that continued till he was 26 months old. He is now my largest discus at a bit over 9".

None of my discus could actually be considered runts and none were ever picked on to the point that they experienced real problems getting food or acted stressed out. I do have one who is 6" at a year old (14 months old now) and I've made the decision to cull because 1) Her quality just isn't there and 2) If she went into my main tank she would be competing for food with 9 discus who are, or soon will be, more than 2" larger than she is. With so many jumbo discus, I just don't have the resources to keep a discus with major flaws and who can never be bred.

[musicmarn1]

BRILLIANT !! thats exactly the kind of thing i was hoping to hear, that possibly suspected runts turn out just fine in the end. being shoved around at feeding time i see that, but i dont see the rest of the time the fish being harassed in any way and sometimes they are the one to do the shoving. so from what your saying we have two kinds of runts;

a/. just smaller, might turn out bigger in the end - heard that a few times now
b/. smaller and picked on, getting thinner from stress, might end up weak or sickly. look at the eyes if still small in relation to the body, might come back. if large and now getting football shaped etc might consider moving or culling.

[strawberryblonde]

BRILLIANT !! thats exactly the kind of thing i was hoping to hear, that possibly suspected runts turn out just fine in the end. being shoved around at feeding time i see that, but i dont see the rest of the time the fish being harassed in any way and sometimes they are the one to do the shoving. so from what your saying we have two kinds of runts;

a/. just smaller, might turn out bigger in the end - heard that a few times now
b/. smaller and picked on, getting thinner from stress, might end up weak or sickly. look at the eyes if still small in relation to the body, might come back. if large and now getting football shaped etc might consider moving or culling.

You got it! =)

[musicmarn1]

Hey Strawberry can you post the fish your calling your closest to runt as a picture hon? so we can see what your standard is now, i think its also personal journey and how laid back you are about the hobby. i dont want to see a stressed fish, i will go through a checklist i now have clear in my mind of what to do to improve that. there is a lfs sub quality fish or two i got in the beginning i love, but now im getting more and more from sponsors, im sure that standard is going to change before too long. however i wont cull those fish they are not sickly or diseased i love them and thats where i started. it would be awesome to see some pictures of what is our closest to runt fish. perhaps we can see if thats a WQ issue or environmental or natural selection, im betting most of the time there is an issue. it sounds like your case Strawb is naturally genetically lower quality fish. However id love to SEE and learn if thats appropriate for this thread.

[Second Hand Pat]

Marnie, Strawberry's name is Toni :angel:

[mastermamo]

Here's a perfect reason for why this thread doesn't need to be closed! =)

Plenty of newcomers and even some of us older timers (I'm not nearly as old as a few of the guys here) can learn new tricks by getting involved in these threads.

Just to be really clear, runts happen. You can tell the difference between a runt and a stunted discus by the size of the eyes in proportion to the body, etc. AND, I really feel the need to mention that until a discus is at least 2 years old, don't assume that it's a runt just because it's smaller than the rest of the herd!

I have two perfect examples for ya.

First up was Number Five. He was so named because my first group of discus numbered five, and he was always at the back of the pack. Smaller, shyer, less willing to eat because he was shoved aside at feeding times. He learned stealth eating and got quite good at it. There was nothing wrong with him, so I left him in the tank and just clucked over his "small" size.... and rejoiced when he managed to hit 6" at a year old. He continued to grow long past the point that the other jumbo's all stopped growing. By 2 years old he'd reached 8"! So it turned out that he wasn't actually a runt, he simply grew more slowly than the others.

My second surprising "runt" was Fred, Jr., my flachen from my second batch of Stendkers. He grew to a respectable 7" by the time he was 18 months old and I thought he was a nice fish, not spectacular, but nice. He had a growth spurt at 22 months that continued till he was 26 months old. He is now my largest discus at a bit over 9".

None of my discus could actually be considered runts and none were ever picked on to the point that they experienced real problems getting food or acted stressed out. I do have one who is 6" at a year old (14 months old now) and I've made the decision to cull because 1) Her quality just isn't there and 2) If she went into my main tank she would be competing for food with 9 discus who are, or soon will be, more than 2" larger than she is. With so many jumbo discus, I just don't have the resources to keep a discus with major flaws and who can never be bred.

Brilliant. This is what I've been hoping to hear. Same with me. My 3 "runts" Stallone, George and Abigail nearly die with Hex and fin rot. Took care of them like babies night and day and today it's unbelievable. Let me show u instead of talking:

Before
STALLONE top right near filter
ABIGAIL middle
GEORGE left
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/19/4yve8y3y.jpg


NOW
STALLONE
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/19/juryjunu.jpg

ABIGAIL
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/19/ybehage9.jpg

GEORGE
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/19/uby6avys.jpg

Poor George is a little weirdly shaped but love him to bits

So I believe all fish deserve a chance

[strawberryblonde]

I don't have a really good pic that shows her peppered side, but I'll include the one recent pic I have of her in QT with my tester discus.

Her flaws:
1) A large peppered spot on her right side. It's about 2" wide and runs from top to bottom.
2) A slightly football shape
3) Dorsal fin is set back too far and part of it "flops" over.
4) Uneven coloration. She is supposed to be pale yellow with darker yellow markings but it''s very uneven.

Oh wait! I can insert a picture of her AND a picture of the one I plan to keep so that you can see the difference between the two!

The "runt"
80132

Her sibling and the one I plan to keep
8013380134

[mee]

@John, we can agree now. I do think it is very unlikely, but things happen in nature which make the very unlikely happen from time to time. FYI, I am a chubby shy guy, but I have dated some of the cutest girls on this planet. Supermodels don't hold a torch to them. Odds are designed to be broken from time to time otherwise they would be definitives.

[mee]

musicmarn1
I have a group of 6 Discus growing out, and there is one that has been growing very slowly. While the others are 4 1/2 to 5 inches he is still under three. There were times I was ready to cull him because his belly looked sunken and he was becoming oblong. I realized he was not able or willing to eat the blood worms and beef heart the others were eating, but was able to eat frozen brine shrimp I had been feeding as an occasional treat, so I fattened him up with that as much as possible. In the last 3 weeks he has made a real turn for the better, shape is improving, he is growing faster, and he is now able to eat bloodworms and beef heart mix, but he favors the blood worms. He has never been bullied despite his small stature, and in fact when he was very small and I started feeding more brine shrimp he would chase all the larger fish away at times showing some very vibrant colors. He doesn't do that anymore, but he weather from his smaller size or his stealth technique, he is able to feed near the boss of the tank with little conflict, while the others are often chased away.

[mastermamo]

@John, we can agree now. I do think it is very unlikely, but things happen in nature which make the very unlikely happen from time to time. FYI, I am a chubby shy guy, but I have dated some of the cutest girls on this planet. Supermodels don't hold a torch to them. Odds are designed to be broken from time to time otherwise they would be definitives.

Applause

I salute you Mee. Well said my friend. Well said indeed

[musicmarn1]

Wow, great pictures thanks guys!

Hahahah Pat and sorry Toni, Strawberry is just such a great nickname:p

Thankyou for pictures, Toni that white butterfly is droooooool worthy that strain or white scorpion is one of my top faves. Your runt looks happy, but yes I can see the qualities that you consider cull worthy, thankyou.

M I love seeing how healthy looking you have made them, shape no withstanding. I'm no where near the Amount of fish where I could cull for shape yet. Just health

And Mee, that's so interesting that adding the brine shrimp initially, made him come along whereas he was fading on he previous type of food, I'm so really glad you shared that, into my bag of tricks it goes

Marnie

[strawberryblonde]

Hi Marnie,

No worries on my name, I answer to all sorts of things and Strawberry is actually one of my nicknames (and MUCH better than Wilt!)

Both of those discus are the same strain, which hopefully points out just how differently they can turn out. I know that I hear white butterfly and white scorpion a lot, but I guess I need to go look those guys up because I have no idea what they look like. These two were called Golden Sunshines by the person who sent them to me...and again, I know nothing about THIS strain either. LOL

I think I should have added a #5 to that list of reasons to cull. I have only one display tank, 2 breeding tanks, 1 grow out tank and 1 hospital tank. No space for another display tank. And here's the thing: my current display tank appears to be all males at the moment! I'm saying that because there's typically SOME sort of flirting, pairing and/or breeding behavior in the tank, along with some aggression, if there's a female in there.

There's nothing! My display tank is peaceful and quiet with no signs of any flirting behavior. So if I put this female runt into that tank, she's going to pick a mate and I can't have that happening. It's not worth the aggression during the flirting period, the cost of raising peppered or poor quality fry or the chance that she'll mate with my non pigeon bloods.

[LizStreithorst]

This thread should be make a sticky. Most interesting thing I've read here for a long time.

[dkeef]

man didn't think there would be this much response to this topic.

I just added 7 fish from QT into main tank of 18. all the fish seem little odd in behavior such as not spreading out as much like before and more grouped together.
they are healthy but as group size increase, do discus school more?
I kinda like each one doing their thing tho LOL...

[nc0gnet0]

Here's the rub on all this nonsense.

Every few months we get a new member or two with grandiose ideas on refusing to cull fish, buying crap fish from the LFS and "saving them", setting up a discus "hospital", or some variation of the three. We here the same old arguments time and time again, and usually they are coupled with an implied message that they are somehow "better" than those of us who refuse to waste our time and money on subpar fish. This is nothing new, and these new members with these grandiose ideas seldom last more than a year, if even half that. Of course they pretend to occupy the moral high ground, with the oft sited phrase (or some derivative of) "they all deserve a chance".

The simple truth of the matter is these people have done nothing to advance the hobby, and the only thing that is served is their own desire to get a warm fuzzy feeling, thinking that they have done something nice. They fail to grasp how cruel nature actually is, how natural selection works, or even the risk they put thier healthy fish in.

Furthermore, it is the responsable breeder that is the one sitting on moral high ground. They are the ones that realize that no discus spawn was ever intended to have a survival rate nearing 100%. They are the ones that realize it is thier moral obligation to perform the task that mother nature cannot when the fish are bred in captivity. They are the ones with the good of the hobby at heart.

Saving crap fish only serves to perpetuate the issue. Buy a crap fish, it will be replaced by another crap fish. Save a crap fish, a good fish will go unsold.

[Tony C]

Here's the rub on all this nonsense.

Every few months we get a new member or two with grandiose ideas on refusing to cull fish, buying crap fish from the LFS and "saving them", setting up a discus "hospital", or some variation of the three. We here the same old arguments time and time again, and usually they are coupled with an implied message that they are somehow "better" than those of us who refuse to waste our time and money on subpar fish. This is nothing new, and these new members with these grandiose ideas seldom last more than a year, if even half that. Of course they pretend to occupy the moral high ground, with the oft sited phrase (or some derivative of) "they all deserve a chance".

The simple truth of the matter is these people have done nothing to advance the hobby, and the only thing that is served is their own desire to get a warm fuzzy feeling, thinking that they have done something nice. They fail to grasp how cruel nature actually is, how natural selection works, or even the risk they put thier healthy fish in.

Furthermore, it is the responsable breeder that is the one sitting on moral high ground. They are the ones that realize that no discus spawn was ever intended to have a survival rate nearing 100%. They are the ones that realize it is thier moral obligation to perform the task that mother nature cannot when the fish are bred in captivity. They are the ones with the good of the hobby at heart.

Saving crap fish only serves to perpetuate the issue. Buy a crap fish, it will be replaced by another crap fish. Save a crap fish, a good fish will go unsold.

Well said, and this holds true for any biological hobby. You could replace the words "fish" and "discus" with frog, gecko, orchid, pitcher plant, snake, or any number of other organisms and you will see this exact same argument repeated in each community. Some people get it and some don't, as you said the latter type almost invariably get frustrated nursing the weak, sick, and deformed and burn out on the hobby.

[William Palumbo]

Well said Rick...and this topic at 8 pages, I find this ridiculous. People, save all the culls you want, but PLEASE do not release them back on the market...and please don't breed them. There is enough crap out there, no need for more...Bill

[Second Hand Pat]

amen

[yim11]

Well said Rick...and this topic at 8 pages, I find this ridiculous. People, save all the culls you want, but PLEASE do not release them back on the market...and please don't breed them. There is enough crap out there, no need for more...Bill

I think it's a catch 22 - the same folks that don't wanna cull and keep stunts/runts also say they won't breed or put them in the marketplace, so unless they have unlimited tank space they would be stuck with those fish until they die a natural death and thus limiting their opportunities to get quality fish.

[dkeef]

Well said, and this holds true for any biological hobby. You could replace the words "fish" and "discus" with frog, gecko, orchid, pitcher plant, snake, or any number of other organisms and you will see this exact same argument repeated in each community. Some people get it and some don't, as you said the latter type almost invariably get frustrated nursing the weak, sick, and deformed and burn out on the hobby.

so if a dog lost a leg, would u cull it too?
cuz most dog keepers wont. to cull it or not is really an individual decision. for me I could care less what others would do.

[nc0gnet0]

so if a dog lost a leg, would u cull it too?
cuz most dog keepers wont. to cull it or not is really an individual decision. for me I could care less what others would do.

A dog that loses a leg isn't genetically any different that a dog with 4 good legs. apples and oranges

[Tony C]

A dog that loses a leg isn't genetically any different that a dog with 4 good legs. apples and oranges

Not to mention that dogs kept as pets are typically neutered, which is a form of culling.

[Madaboutdiscus]

True but most reputable dog breeders keep and allow to breed their most spectacular specimens of their breed. The subpar ones they do allow to live however these are sold to loving pet only homes where they are to be spayed/neutered and kept as pets only. Now I do love my runt and I wont cull it but there are days when it looks particularly bad I kind of wish itd go ahead and push off because it stresses me to watch it stressed and some days not eating. As ive said before im not a breeder and dont plan on it. It was a healthy fish when I got it but when the gill thing started it quit eating a lot. Not sure if it was flukes or just a malfunction but it stunted itself by not eating. Actually it pushed everyone around and was the biggest the first to turn colors and everything. Now its clearly stunted its still at 2 inches where the rest have moved to 3 and 3.5 and looks skinny but just cant bring myself to cull it. I recognize the act of breeders to cull and I do understand what youre doing and applaud your triumphs at breeding great fish that further the breed/strain. but with no intents on breeding or owning anymore until I have room the runt is safe in my tank.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

[nc0gnet0]

Now I do love my runt and I wont cull it but there are days when it looks particularly bad I kind of wish itd go ahead and push off because it stresses me to watch it stressed and some days not eating. As ive said before im not a breeder and dont plan on it. It was a healthy fish when I got it but when the gill thing started it quit eating a lot. Not sure if it was flukes or just a malfunction but it stunted itself by not eating. Actually it pushed everyone around and was the biggest the first to turn colors and everything. Now its clearly stunted its still at 2 inches where the rest have moved to 3 and 3.5 and looks skinny but just cant bring myself to cull it.

How will you feel when this fish falls ill (the weak and stressed are the first to do so) which in turn then infects and kills your other healthy fish? By your own admission the discus doesn't look well. If you want to keep an otherwise healthy runt, I have no problem with that. Keeping a sickly fish is just plain foolish,. If you do however insist on keeping your runts, at least have the decency to place them with fish thier own size.

[John_Nicholson]

True but most reputable dog breeders keep and allow to breed their most spectacular specimens of their breed. The subpar ones they do allow to live however these are sold to loving pet only homes where they are to be spayed/neutered and kept as pets only. Now I do love my runt and I wont cull it but there are days when it looks particularly bad I kind of wish itd go ahead and push off because it stresses me to watch it stressed and some days not eating. As ive said before im not a breeder and dont plan on it. It was a healthy fish when I got it but when the gill thing started it quit eating a lot. Not sure if it was flukes or just a malfunction but it stunted itself by not eating. Actually it pushed everyone around and was the biggest the first to turn colors and everything. Now its clearly stunted its still at 2 inches where the rest have moved to 3 and 3.5 and looks skinny but just cant bring myself to cull it. I recognize the act of breeders to cull and I do understand what youre doing and applaud your triumphs at breeding great fish that further the breed/strain. but with no intents on breeding or owning anymore until I have room the runt is safe in my tank.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


I raised catahoulas and bulldogs for about 30 years.......I have culled more puppies than the rest of ya 'll will ever own. Never enjoyed it but good breeders do not allow any sub-par animal to leave their place. How did method work for me? I had the number one stud dog for several years. He was a confirmation champion, A grand champion of champion confirmation, a champion hog dog, a grand champion of champion hog dog. Had points in treeing and I qualified for the top 10 cowdog championship for several years running. The very first grand champion of champion female hogdog was one of his daughter. You know what they called those breeders that would keep all of their puppies regardless of quality? They are called puppy mills and losers. Either you are producing and keeping high quality animals or you are keepng crap. Now if that is what you want to do then fine but try to tell me how much better you are because you don;t have the balls to do what you need to.

-john

P.S. Rick I owe you a beer at NADA.

[GeauxDiscus]

This thread should be make a sticky. Most interesting thing I've read here for a long time.

I agree! Passionate opinions on both sides. I agree that if someone wants to keep a runt or stunt (not a sickly fish), more power to them, as long as they are not breeding those fish and adding even more junk into the market.

[troysdiiscus]

ok lets look at it this way. Most spawns from quality pairs range anywhere from 50 to 150 eggs, lets say...out of 100 that make it to wigglers and free swimmers, how many are good quality fish???? I just had a spawn of 45 or so and I have culled about 10 so far because they are not of quality and health of the rest.
If you want to make the comparsion of dogs and having them spade or neutered is why??? To control the population right.....then same same with discus, to control the population of genetic weakened discus not to breed and create other poor quality and weak discus. When you pick pairs to spawn, how did you pick the pairs???? Were they the best looking and healthiest discus???Yep.....

[GeauxDiscus]

I don't have a really good pic that shows her peppered side, but I'll include the one recent pic I have of her in QT with my tester discus.

Her flaws:
1) A large peppered spot on her right side. It's about 2" wide and runs from top to bottom.
2) A slightly football shape
3) Dorsal fin is set back too far and part of it "flops" over.
4) Uneven coloration. She is supposed to be pale yellow with darker yellow markings but it''s very uneven.

Oh wait! I can insert a picture of her AND a picture of the one I plan to keep so that you can see the difference between the two!

The "runt"
80132

Her sibling and the one I plan to keep
8013380134

Hey Toni-
I have room to give that "runt" a home in my 150 gallon, and I'd be happy to have a 6" white dragon that's not completely perfect. If you bag her, I'll pay for shipping!

[Skip]

http://stylealchemy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/bowiedisapproves1.gif

[dkeef]

Hey Toni-
I have room to give that "runt" a home in my 150 gallon, and I'd be happy to have a 6" white dragon that's not completely perfect. If you bag her, I'll pay for shipping!

Toni same here lol. I think yur runt looks beautiful!

Ok so a good rule to follow:

1. If yur a hardcore breeder u should cull (for yur sake of reputation if u care)
2. If yur a hobbyist, do whatever u want cuz no one cares about yur fish anyway (This is more than 80% of simply members)

[Skip]

Ok so a good rule to follow:

1. If yur a hardcore breeder u should cull (for yur sake of reputation if u care)
2. If yur a hobbyist, do whatever u want cuz no one cares about yur fish anyway(This is more than 80% of simply members)

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/35636812.jpg

[dkeef]

Haha. I dont know. Just guessing. Seems like it.
Dont we have mostly average ppl in this world?
Thought same thing happens here.

[Ryan]

1. If yur a hardcore breeder u should cull (for yur sake of reputation if u care)

You should cull because it's the responsible thing to do, yes. You don't have to be a hardcore breeder. Even a small-time hobbyist basement breeder should do this. If you're knowingly pumping crap fish into the marketplace then the discus hobby as a whole suffers, whether you're selling 100 fish or 1,000 fish. dkeef, you bought fish from Kenny and Josie -- they probably all had nice shape, properly developed fins, normal eyes, and decent color. This is because anything less than satisfactory was culled and not passed along to you.


2. If yur a hobbyist, do whatever u want cuz no one cares about yur fish anyway (This is more than 80% of simply members)

Sure. It's your money and they're your fish. Do whatever you want with them. But again, like I mentioned before, a cull or a stunt/runt is not very marketable to experienced discus hobbyists, so re-homing them is going to be next to impossible if you should decide to shut down your tank or move on to something else. And re-homing them to an unsuspecting person who doesn't realize they're mediocre quality fish (especially if you as the owner realize this and don't disclose it to the potential new owner) just reflects badly on your character in general.

And by "you," I'm obviously speaking in a general sense, not specifically to dkeef.

[strawberryblonde]

Hey Toni-
I have room to give that "runt" a home in my 150 gallon, and I'd be happy to have a 6" white dragon that's not completely perfect. If you bag her, I'll pay for shipping!


Toni same here lol. I think yur runt looks beautiful!

Ok so a good rule to follow:

1. If yur a hardcore breeder u should cull (for yur sake of reputation if u care)
2. If yur a hobbyist, do whatever u want cuz no one cares about yur fish anyway (This is more than 80% of simply members)

Sorry guys, I can't and won't sell her or even give her away to anyone. She's a perfectly fertile female and has had free swimmers in the past, so if I let her go to someone else they'll end up with fry, and that's not acceptable to me. She's a genetically inferior fish. If I had a way to spay her, I'd happily pass her along to someone else, but till then... she ends up in my fishie graveyard.

[mastermamo]

I agree! Passionate opinions on both sides. I agree that if someone wants to keep a runt or stunt (not a sickly fish), more power to them, as long as they are not breeding those fish and adding even more junk into the market.

Agreed. U summed up everything I've been trying to say from the outset
Thank you

[mee]

I don't think anyone in this thread has said not to cull. The topic is the fate of runts, and the fate is different depending on owners and circumstances. Fish that should have been culled make it into the market place, that is it's own cold hard truth. However the great breeders of the world avoid these fish and despite the constant flux of badly bred fish in the hobby, there is also a strong flux of great bred fish in the hobby. With frontosa any fish with an extra stripe on one side or stripes that run together, or moon is culled by the quality breeders. Any hybrids are culled. We keep the lines as true to wild form as possible, and try to discourage those that would mix tanks.. however we do it with kindness, and without blind presumptions. Lake Victoria is an even huger fight for keeping lines pure. Many of the best breeders cull whole colonies and fry stock because they learn the stock may have been hybridized years ago. I personally am the sole owner in the US of a species of Victorians from Leiden University. I will probably lose interest and flush them down the toilet in a year though :p

[mee]

I feel compelled to say one last thing, runts do not always pass on their genes. Because the runt can be a runt for many reasons. Also a sickly fish is not always a disease carrier. Some fish are just more sensitive to things such as water changes, lack of water changes, diet, light, etc.. What's more, if you were in some place in the world where stock is limited, you can over time breed great stock from not so great stock.. this is where allot of patience and culling comes into play. Case and point. I came into a line of victorian Cichlids that were said to be an original early 90's line from Dave Hansen. They looked the part, and I compared to others who had his lines. Several asked me if I had seen any deformities like shortened gill plates or spinal deformities. At the time I had not, but after several generations they appeared. The general consensus was that it was due to inbreeding. With only 3 fish, likely related I separated spawns, and bred siblings to siblings from the separate spawns, and bred back to the original father, and mother.. it only took a few generations until the deformities appeared to vanish. I continued separating the spawns and breeding groups as much as possible never introducing new blood since I did not want to introduce a impure strain.. after more than 1000 fry I never saw another deformity (fyi victorians rarely brood more than 30 fry per spawn). Anyways sorry for another lengthy post, but my point is teaching those who save less than perfect fish how to improve the line rather than scowling them for not having great fish may be a better approach. But yes culling is a must for this.

[John_Nicholson]

Everyone in this thread is at least a little bit right....

Here is an example for anyone who will ever breeds a discus.....And you honny guys know damned well that even if you are not really trying it would trhrill your hearts if 2 of your fish were to pair up and spawn, it does not matter the color or quality you would raise the babies...... Anyway has anyone ever heard of the cattle breed Santa Gertrudis? I am keeping this short but they were developed on the King Ranch many moons ago. Basically when they started this program any cow that did not bring in a calf every year was culled from the herd, as were her offspring and their offspring. Sounds pretty harsh considering the mountian lions, coyotes, bears, and other assorted preditors running around south Texas, ........but you know what they ended up with because of their strict culling? One of the best producing cattle breeds ever developed. You know what happened once the breed got out and other people started breeding with lower standards? Now they are just cows. They are not near as productive as they once were. This is because people lowered thei standards. Time for me to head to work so I will check in later.

-john

[GeauxDiscus]

I hear you John, and I totally agree. I'd like to think that if I were a breeder, I would do a good job with culling. But alas, I'm just Joe Consumer, and all I'm trying to do is build a nice shoal of 6" plus adults for my living room tank. That way I can impress my friends with badass fish. Also, I like to drink tequila and watch a bunch of big, impressive fish swim around and do funny stuff. It relieves stress and prevents me from seriously injuring my boss or co-workers.

As for the fry thing, I've had fry with other species several times in the past, and I always just let them get eaten by the other tank members. Though I must admit that it is fun to get a batch, I don't have the time or inclination to raise them. In fact, I've come to the conclusion that I don't have the time to raise 2" discus either. Just adults for me from now on. No more messing around.

Interesting thread everyone. Cheers.

[Tony C]

But alas, I'm just Joe Consumer, and all I'm trying to do is build a nice shoal of 6" plus adults for my living room tank. That way I can impress my friends with badass fish. Also, I like to drink tequila and watch a bunch of big, impressive fish swim around and do funny stuff.

That's the point of the thread though, the big, impressive fish that we want come from breeders who properly manage their stock. The sickly, stunted, football shaped runts that some are so desperate to save are far less likely to produce offspring worth keeping, but they are produced en masse and dumped on the market. This further reinforces the perception of discus being difficult fish only suited for experts and fills the tanks of the unsuspecting and soft-hearted with fish that never should have left the breeder's tanks.

I must say that I am impressed though, a thread on culling in a herp community board rarely makes it to 10 pages without someone invoking Godwin's law. :grin:

[Skip]

I must say that I am impressed though, a thread on culling in a herp community board rarely makes it to 10 pages without someone invoking Godwin's law. :grin:

For those that DON"T know about Godwins Law..

here it is..

http://beforewisdom.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/godwinsLaw.png

[GeauxDiscus]

Godwin's law - hilarious. :D

And I definitely get the point of the thread. You breeders do your job by culling your hearts out and creating big, impressive fish, and I'll do my job of making lots of money to pay you to do it (because I clearly suck at it and don't have the time or energy to do it). Furthermore, I will then drink lots of tequila and veg-out and look at my awesome fish you grew. The end.

[Skip]

Shane.. come to NADA in austin.. and i guarantee ya... that mentality will change!! you will go home and want to flush all your fish!! and set higher goals for yourself and your fish :)

[GeauxDiscus]

Is there tequila at the NADA show? Or at least beer? LOL

[yim11]

Is there tequila at the NADA show? Or at least beer? LOL

The show is in Texas - nuff said. LOL

[mee]

If you bring it limes will come .....

[strawberryblonde]

Wait, there's going to be tequila too???

[nc0gnet0]

I don't think anyone in this thread has said not to cull.



I've set up a tank just for runts and stunts cos u gotta love these little guys. I would not trade them for the world –mastermamo post 31


Every creature no matter how big, small, pretty, unattractive or runty is Gods hand at work. mastermamo post 40 (so are the gill flukes, hex, nematodes, mosquitos, leaches, etc etc).


Looks beautiful. Put them in a tank and then go looking at your LFS for more runts. Build a runt tank like mine. Trust me, you won't regret it mastermamo post 41 (And here we are advocating that members actively go out and seek to purchase runts)……….


Yes agreed but if u work hard enough almost any sick fish can be saved
Again post 48


I'm about to open a specialised discus section in my LFS and a fish rescue division is part of it. I know it's impossible to keep all fish and I've lost a few in my time but with proper education I hope to start breeding proper stock so that unscrupulous wholesalers who are only out for a quick buck are exposed for what they are. post 54 (exposing them by encouraging others to buy their fish? color me confused!)


My fish are going to be A grade imports and German flagellate free fish as well. I'm not trying to keep all the fish. All I'm saying is I never give up on a sick fish. I fully understand everyone's point of view on culling but personally I will not do it. So he is going to breed, but not cull?

I dunno, seems like he was saying just that?

[dkeef]

Ive been to other discus hobbyist to buy some fish(all from simply or other reputable breeders) but always see some low quality ones as well.
Rarely do i see nada show quality in there. Most are nice but some not so great.
I assumed most of us including breeders have these runts or less quality ones.

[strawberryblonde]

There's a big difference between a show quality discus, a standard quality discus and a runt.

If you're seeing runts and low quality discus at a reputable breeders establishment you need to find a new breeder! For the home hobbyists, you can expect to see some of those runts in the tanks if they haven't had a chance to cull, or if they are of the mind that keeping those culls is perfectly ok. And again, if you see low quality discus when you visit a hobbyist's home, don't buy them...move on and keep looking till you find good, standard quality discus.

Show quality discus are rare and extremely expensive, which is why most of us who don't plan to show our fish purchase the VERY nice ones that some of the exceptional sponsors sell here. You can find those same really nice ones from some of the home hobbyists here too.

Those VERY nice discus are the same fish who produce show quality discus, it's just that show quality doesn't happen nearly as often as the very nice ones and WAY less often than the runts and deformed ones show up.

[mastermamo]

–mastermamo post 31

mastermamo post 40 (so are the gill flukes, hex, nematodes, mosquitos, leaches, etc etc).

mastermamo post 41 (And here we are advocating that members actively go out and seek to purchase runts)……….


Again post 48

post 54 (exposing them by encouraging others to buy their fish? color me confused!)

So he is going to breed, but not cull?

I dunno, seems like he was saying just that?

For the last time I am NOT selling runts. I just feel sorry for sick, neglected fish and give them a home. I don't sell to to ppl, I don't encourage ppl trying to sell them. It's like this: if I go into a local SPCA and see a dog with 3 legs I'd take him instead of a healthy dog because I feel sorry for him/her. This doesn't mean I love my 2 purebred German shepherds any less. Maybe I'm too soft hearted. If that's a crime them I'm guilty. Opening a specialised discus section at my LFS will be for A grade fish for sale. The runts stay at home in their own little tank. Dear God I hope this explains it...

[Tony C]

For the last time I am NOT selling runts. I just feel sorry for sick, neglected fish and give them a home. I don't sell to to ppl, I don't encourage ppl trying to sell them. It's like this: if I go into a local SPCA and see a dog with 3 legs I'd take him instead of a healthy dog because I feel sorry for him/her. This doesn't mean I love my 2 purebred German shepherds any less. Maybe I'm too soft hearted. If that's a crime them I'm guilty. Opening a specialised discus section at my LFS will be for A grade fish for sale. The runts stay at home in their own little tank. Dear God I hope this explains it...

Not at all. Suppose each spawn produces 5 culls (a very optimistic number), a productive pair could leave you with 50-100+ fish in your little runt tank within a year. Multiply that by however many breeding pairs you intend to keep, you will quickly see that saving them all is an impossible task. Like it or not you only have three choices: cull, dump them on the market, or watch them suffer and die as you try to keep them all and inevitably run out of space and time for them. Do yourself, your fish and your future customers a favor, either stop letting your emotions override reason or forget about breeding. As a breeder of any animal you must be able and willing to perform unpleasant tasks to maintain the integrity of your lines.

[Skip]

Master do u work at lfs

[mastermamo]

Master do u work at lfs

No I have a Media and an IT company. This is a hobby for me

[mastermamo]

Not at all. Suppose each spawn produces 5 culls (a very optimistic number), a productive pair could leave you with 50-100+ fish in your little runt tank within a year. Multiply that by however many breeding pairs you intend to keep, you will quickly see that saving them all is an impossible task. Like it or not you only have three choices: cull, dump them on the market, or watch them suffer and die as you try to keep them all and inevitably run out of space and time for them. Do yourself, your fish and your future customers a favor, either stop letting your emotions override reason or forget about breeding. As a breeder of any animal you must be able and willing to perform unpleasant tasks to maintain the integrity of your lines.

I agree with you TOTALLY but if u read my previous comments u would have seen that I said I am not intending to breed them right now. I am importing Grade A fish. Should I reach the stage where I will breed fish and if runts emerge I will then look into culling. So at this point not being a breeder I can let my emotions rule a little don't u think?

[nc0gnet0]

I agree with you TOTALLY but if u read my previous comments u would have seen that I said I am not intending to breed them right now. I am importing Grade A fish. Should I reach the stage where I will breed fish and if runts emerge I will then look into culling. So at this point not being a breeder I can let my emotions rule a little don't u think?

Nope, if your half serious at all about breeding, culling is not an option, it is a neccessity. Furthermore, if you want to keep a few of your culls in a special tank because it gives you the warm fuzzies, thats your dollar, your deal. But to come on here and tell people to actively go out to thier local lfs and purchase crap fish, that is a whole different ballgame.

[musicmarn1]

Looks beautiful. Put them in a tank and then go looking at your LFS for more runts. Build a runt tank like mine. Trust me, you won't regret it

thats where i get a bit lost, I will in my beginner'ness cause a fish to get sick or runt it or stunt it, i personally want to learn from it and take care of that fish the best i can, no matter what anyone here themselves might do. and i will do so to LEARN and grow

Unless it is sick, but to go out and actually encourage a pet store to sell those fish (each time i have gotten one of the 5 i have, the staff GAVE it to me or the owner in a different store, did not make money on the deal and had to put up with me cleaning his tanks and being a general nuisance to raise the standard for the rest)

seems like its not directly helping the fish haha ! BUT i DO love your love for fish. i do. and i can see you have medicated and had success, i dont know how to medicate a fish to save my life, ive used water and water alone (ok and epsom salts) until finally had to use prazipro to treat my first tapeworm (or worm) in a thin young fish i had in my 7th discus month.

just saying, i APPLAUD you not killing your mistakes, but improving their lives, your pictures do not look sick to me they look mis shappen, they look well colored, red eyed and alert. but will they live long lives? i dont know, im going to have to LEARN all this by doing. not just by reading. but i AM going to put my one stunted fish down, perhaps i SHOULD have medicated him i didn't know how, everything i read here said cull him and improve the water quality for the rest. ok not everything there are plenty of medication advice but in DIAGNOSING its all about water first if you read 20 posts on diagnosing. so i didnt know what else to do, and for ages he was super great color red eyes and feisty, now he is obviously not. so im culling him tomorrow. i dont want to loose the heard to save the cow. and he is SO small, smaller than the smallest one in your pictures and 9 months old.

honestly id rather have a spread sheet sometimes of what works for each person so we can SEE the data, instead of HEARING the opinion which is sometimes a little hard to truly hear because of the emotion or caustic tone behind it :p

[mastermamo]

I just feel sorry for fish that are not taken care of and lie sick and dying at a LFS so I go rescue them if I can. All life is important in my opinion. That's all I have to say. I'm done commenting on this now. Call me crazy. Call me stupid. Call me ignorant. All I know is I have given a home to a few doomed fish and THAT makes me happy.
My thoughts on this are now closed.

[Skip]

I just feel sorry for fish that are not taken care of and lie sick and dying at a LFS so I go rescue them if I can. All life is important in my opinion. That's all I have to say. I'm done commenting on this now. Call me crazy. Call me stupid. Call me ignorant. All I know is I have given a home to a few doomed fish and THAT makes me happy.
My thoughts on this are now closed.

Master.. f that
Idk about your country
But here in usa...There is no way I would pay the lfs jacked up prices on their normal fish.. much less a sick stunted discus.... my lfs wants $250 for 4" pb.. what?! I don't think so.. I can get jumbo from Hans for same price

[troysdiiscus]

KUM BA YAH, MY LORD, KUM BA YAH.....EVERYBODY SING ALONG....;)

[nc0gnet0]

John Wayne is not dead, he is frozen.........

[Darren's Discus]

Straight to the freezer with my runts and culls "floorslappers" I call them.
Cheers

[dkeef]

if i were to become a breeder and plan to cull them, i would definitely get some arowanas and stingrays. (just an excuse for my wife...wink wink ^^)

[mee]

Frontosa make for good cull eaters. They hunt as a pack sorta like wolves, but also wake up in very dim early early morning light and ambush sleeping fish, ie any that manage to out run them during the day. However they need a minimum of a 125 gallon 6 foot tank to be healthy and happy, and a group of 5 or more fish (8 or more is ideal but a bigger tank is needed).

[Mxx]

An interesting old thread I came across in researching this. My suggestion is the opposite of the others.

Keep and raise those runts, sell the others off, then selectively breed them until you have a strain of miniature discus which hobbyists can keep happily in small tanks! You'll make a fortune! ;)

[ericatdallas]

Give it a try and see if there's a market. There are dwarf strains of other fish... though the key isn't the size of the discus, but the shape. I've seen other people discuss this before.

[Second Hand Pat]

Technically stunted discus happen due to lack of care in their growing period as juvies. Genetically their fry can be full sized discus with good care.

[ericatdallas]

Technically stunted discus happen due to lack of care in their growing period as juvies. Genetically their fry can be full sized discus with good care.

Yeah... I was thinking he means culls that aren't growing well and not stunted. Or selectively keeping the small guys without some other defects. Although that would take a lot of time I imagine...

Scott293 bought some poorly grown out and stunted discus and his 2nd generation growout was amazing, so yeah, on Pat's point.

[John_Nicholson]

It was tried many years ago and failed. Just not a market for little discus if that person has ever seen a large one.

-john

[Second Hand Pat]

Eric, an observation with my wild F1s. I have grown (or tried) out three batches of F1s and ran into various issues with them. Between the three batches I only ended up with three normal sized fish. Most of my F1 grew to about three to four inches and stopped growing generally in the seven to nine month time frame. While I blame the myself for this the fish were not stunted in the sense domestic fry are stunted in that the eyes of the F1s were very small. I suspect I missed a critical grow period or the fry could not overcome the issues I had. Point is the remaining healthy fry were perfectly formed (but small) discus with small eyes.

[NAB]

Good for smaller tanks. hehe

[Second Hand Pat]

But not carrying fry.

[Tautog]

I have one we call Blue Boy. I don't know if he's a runt neither does he. The story with him is I've had him since my first group of 2in. Babies in my 37G when I first started back in May 13. He got sick first week in tank. I QT him and brought him back around. When I put him back into tank he quickly became Dom baby. During the holidays this year I dropped a grand on x9 5-6in Discus and actually traded him in with one other younger fish for a bigger one. Later that night I had a crying daughter on my hands so I took off work next morning went back to HAW and bought Blue Boy back. Ok now he's half the size of the rest of the Team but he is in the middle of the pecking order and has not fear. No matter what I want to achieve I'm locked in with that little guy.

[dirtyplants]

I have two that are growing but very slowly all the rest have doubled or tripled in size. All get the same food and all the same water and daily changes of 60%. All from same stock what happening? Runts?

[Bill63SG]

I have two that are growing but very slowly all the rest have doubled or tripled in size. All get the same food and all the same water and daily changes of 60%. All from same stock what happening? Runts?

My non-scientific opinion is yes.Somtimes somebody's gotta be the runt,and is you remove them,sometimes somebody else takes over.I believe I have read around on here if you take them out and put them with others of the same size,not necessarily the same age,they can recover.thats why I have found,if you can afford it,its better to start out with 10-12 juvies,and work your way to 6-8,culling as you raise them.

[dirtyplants]

I will do that Bill this week end.

[ronald sherman]

you know after all this reading I'm wondering why we don't give doctor's the right as many kid's who are born with birth defect's can be spotted almost immediately just think of the burden we as society will end let a lot the burden of many of there care taker's as there are kid's born that will never be able too ralk, dress themselves, will be a burden on society there who life let alone the burden of the tac payer, why don't we allow the government too set-up guildlines as which the doctor doing the delievery can implement as which kid's should be cuddled , LOL naturally I'm kidding and trying too make a point, LOL

[Bill63SG]

you know after all this reading I'm wondering why we don't give doctor's the right as many kid's who are born with birth defect's can be spotted almost immediately just think of the burden we as society will end let a lot the burden of many of there care taker's as there are kid's born that will never be able too ralk, dress themselves, will be a burden on society there who life let alone the burden of the tac payer, why don't we allow the government too set-up guildlines as which the doctor doing the delievery can implement as which kid's should be cuddled , LOL naturally I'm kidding and trying too make a point, LOL

What point that fish are the same as people?Ok Mr.Limpet.And another thread about to go down in flames....

[Ryan]

Or we'll just lock it and save ourselves the headache.