Apistogrammes Borelli

[pastry]

This is a thread that could also be borderline, "Looking for", forum... but I'm also seeking experience with Apistogrammes Borelli with Discus. I'm pretty confident that a pair would be just fine in my 150 BUT... for one, you never know... and for two, may need a harem instead of just a pair (if so, what number is recommended?).

Now, if they are good to go, then who on here carries them? My LFS that I trust enough for apistos (not entirely for discus though) gets them in from time to time but they don't have much influence on when they get them in. So if someone on here has some then I'm all ears! Thanks in advance for any and all feedback! And yes, I'm prepared for anyone to share bad experiences as well... can't get the "group think" syndrome going on. Let it fly.

-Elliot

[Fundulopanchax]

I have kept them with discus. They do well similar to rams. I don't keep them now but did when I lived in Charleston (moved away in 1985). On Aquabid "apistodave" sometimes offers a very nice blue strain.

Ron

[pastry]

Ron,

Charleston, SC or Charleston, WV?

I don't frequent aquabid but may need to. Thanks for the heads up!

One thing, on about 4 or 5 different occasions since I've had discus (off and on for 15 years) I had rams in the tank with them and even 8 inch discus would get pushed to one half of the tank by a single mating pair of rams... will borellis do that much as well? Given, bigger tank now but damn can those little rams take over some space when they're getting hot and heavy. I'm sure any apistos will defend a little area but I just don't want all of my discus on one side of the tank within a heavily planted/structured 150 gallon.

Thanks for the feedback and any further advice, Ron! -Elliot

[DiscusBR]

I got 3 apistogramas agassizi (1 male and 2 females) when I first set my 80g tank. They spawned like crazy and harassed the discus whenever they came close to the spawning site. I ended taking them out. You have a larger tank, so they might work. But this was my experience.

[pastry]

Thanks Mauro, by the way, big fan of reading/viewing your threads. Love your wilds and your male of the wild pair you kept reminds me of one of my favorite wilds in the past. Hope all is well!

[Ryan]

Any cichlid will get aggressive/territorial when spawning or rearing fry. Apistogramma are no different. Though they're small, never underestimate dwarf cichlids.

You may check to see if Mark at Discus Origins has any available. If not, you may also check with Aquatic Clarity (http://aquaticclarity.com). Another option would be to visit Apistogramma.com (http://www.apistogramma.com) and see if any members there have nice home-bred fry for sale.

[pastry]

ryan, thanks bud! yep, I definitely don't underestimate those little buggers. I always just wondered how much territory certain ones take over when breeding. in the past I've had rams take over 3/4 of a tank where as a pair of discus may only occupy 1/4 of the tank in my current set up. cracks me up. I DEFINITELY will follow up on the leads you gave me. thanks thanks!!!

[plecocicho]

Apistogramma borrelies come form southern Brazil and Praguay, so i dont think they would cope good with constant warm temperatures of a discus tank. I would recommend more agasizzies and catacoides.

[Fundulopanchax]

Ron,

Charleston, SC or Charleston, WV?

I don't frequent aquabid but may need to. Thanks for the heads up!

One thing, on about 4 or 5 different occasions since I've had discus (off and on for 15 years) I had rams in the tank with them and even 8 inch discus would get pushed to one half of the tank by a single mating pair of rams... will borellis do that much as well? Given, bigger tank now but damn can those little rams take over some space when they're getting hot and heavy. I'm sure any apistos will defend a little area but I just don't want all of my discus on one side of the tank within a heavily planted/structured 150 gallon.

Thanks for the feedback and any further advice, Ron! -Elliot

Hi, there, I lived in Charleston SC from 1968 to 1985 - high school, college (College of Charleston '77), MUSC (pharmaocology '81, medicine '85). Even owned "The Aquarium Center" in West Ashley from 73-80).

I have had many Apisto's with discus - it is important to make sure that you have a lot of them and they will essentially ignore the discus even when they are spawning. Currently I have 3 spawning pairs of rams in a 150 gallon tank (6 feet) with 12 near-adult discus (5.5 - 6.5 inches, about 10 months old). Each pair spawns every couple of weeks and they spend all of their time caring for the fry and chasing after the closest other pair of rams. They rarely pay any attention to the discus unless the discus comes within a few inches of the fry. Within 4-5 days of hatching all the fry are gone, presumably eaten by the corydoras (20 of them). One pair of rams lives at each end of the tank and the third pair lives directly mid-tank. I have found similar behavior from borelli, agassizi, and cacatuoides, as well as two species that were unidentified. On the other hand when I have kept only one pair of Apistos with discus then the Apistos are aggressive to the discus when they spawn.

BTW, ApistoDave has nice Borelli's on Aquabid right now (he is the Apistogramma.com dude as well along with his colleague), one of the foremost Apisto experts.

Ron

[pastry]

Pleco, thanks for the background info! I wasn't aware of that. I may still try them because I'm hard headed but I do find that info helpful. I keep my tank towards the lower end of the spectrum for discus (82) but it's probably still warmer than the optimal temp for them. I definitely haven't closed the door on agasizzies though. I'm 50/50 either one but my wife really wants some borellis once I showed them to here. My prediction: I'll screw a few borellis up being hard headed and end up with agasizzies after all.

Ron, how the heck did you ever leave Charleston!?!?! I love it here! Where did you end up? I'm on Johns Island. I didn't get here until 5 years ago so I'm not sure where "The Aquarium Center" was/is. Is that the one kind of near the Barnes & Nobles in W. Ash? Thanks also for all your info & experience. May harass you in the future for more info once I figure out which route I'll go.

[pastry]

Well, I ended up ordering two pairs off of ApistoDave but unfortunately have not had the best experience with him. Hope the fish are alive when they get here b/c I won't be ordering from him again.

[Fundulopanchax]

Ron, how the heck did you ever leave Charleston!?!?! I love it here! Where did you end up? I'm on Johns Island. I didn't get here until 5 years ago so I'm not sure where "The Aquarium Center" was/is. Is that the one kind of near the Barnes & Nobles in W. Ash? Thanks also for all your info & experience. May harass you in the future for more info once I figure out which route I'll go.- I did

I have been moving with work, first to Bethesda MD (National Institutes of Health), then Philadelphia (Zeneca), and now Connecticut (Purdue Frederick and AlgoRx). Charleston was a great place. Spent lots of time on James Island - I did MS in Marine Biology at Grice Marine Biological Lab with mariculture and spent many happy days going out shark fishing for the EPA's John's Island office (part of an environment impact statement - it was tough work, we checked out a boat every morning then went fishing for about 6 hours. Of course it was very hot in the summer so the three of us took six 6-packs of beer every day. We had a side project in which we were trying to identify the molecules responsible for the flavor of shrimp so we dragged a seine around 11:30 AM every day along the drop-off at the mouth of Leadenwah Creek where it empties into the North Edisto River - goes from 12 feet to 23 feet in a "cliff" and the shrimp followed the current at the bottom of the cliff. We decided for gustatory reasons to only freeze the heads, leaving the bodies along with a flounder or two that came in the net with them to eat for lunch. Interestingly, in 1978 we did identify the flavor molecules and the College licensed the patent to a food company. The flavor is a specific ratio of three polyamines if you can believe it; individual polyamines are amazingly nasty in odor but put several together in a specific ratio and you can recreate nearly all seafood flavors. I have always liked the taste of the "artificial crab" at the salad bars of grocery stores, probably since I was part of the group who made such a landmark advance in gastronomy possible! Having done large scale mariculture (the system I built was 35,000 gallons in all), I can build mean sewer treatment plants - of course so can many folks on this forum with their large systems.

The Aquarium Center was in the Northbridge Shopping Center (where Rte 7 intersects with Orange Grove Road). It has been gone for a long time. The person I sold it to when I left passed away some years ago. I just looked at Google and in the shopping center Lyerly's Cleaners is still there. We were next door. My brother and his family live in Charleston as do several of my wife's nieces (Mt Pleasant) so we get there at least once a year. I know I am home when I smell the pluff mud in the marsh - the best perfume I have ever experienced.

I don't know how many good shops are in the Charleston area now. One that I have visited for many years is Tideline Aquatics in Hanahan (a long drive for you but an exceedingly well-done shop). I never miss a visit when I am in Charleston, it is so very nice. It is fairly small but utilizes every square inch to the best effect and is so clean you can eat off the floor (if you are into such things). Not many aquarium shops can say that.

Ron

[pastry]

Ron,

Usually when I read responses that long I skim... but I didn't miss a word. I guess because of all the same familiarity + how I was drooling over such a job in the first paragraph. Let me know sometime if you plan to be down here and I'll put you on some reds and/or sheepshead (unless it's March/April... my worse fishing months!). I have a little 17 ft scout that I wear out nearly every weekend, year around!

Yep, I'm certainly familiar with Tideline. I actually drive to Hanahann everyday for work (from Johns Island, the traffic is going the opposite direction!). Good people there and still just as you described it. In fact, I almost think they get even better and better each visit.

[pastry]

Well I have to make up for being a terd to Dave. We had some miscommunications and my "terdness" came out. Got the borellis in today and while I wasn't very happy that they went priority USPS instead of express USPS, the Borelli auction he had actually stated that they were going to be sent priority (and I assumed express off of what several of his other auctions stated since I couldn't find the original one... which I later found and he was right). there was still some miscommunications on both sides but in the end I didn't read thoroughly (which is funny b/c we both accused one another of that offense). I got my borellis today after about 96 hours of travel time via USPS and had 5 of 6 alive (lost a female). I had wanted only 2 pairs, but again, we both misread one another and I take responsibility for that (as well as told him I wouldn't ask for a replacement for the dead female since I was jackass). so I have my 2 pairs plus a bonus male. I owe it to Dave to post this.

[Rudra]

Do let us know how the 2 pair fares with the discus. I currently have 1 pair of A.Agasizzi with 2 pairs of discus in a 90 G, and do see a lot of aggression towards the discus (or to some discus.. they tend to not bother the meaner/female/bigger (Not sure) ones). If this actually works, I might drop in another pair of A.A

[inkbull]

i have a dozen home breed opal borellii ready to ship i breed myself never been medicated never been fed any color enhancers other than spirulina i keep and breed them in hard warm water ph8.0 temp 85-86
http://i1289.photobucket.com/albums/b513/inkbull/077_zps8c8952e3.jpg (http://s1289.photobucket.com/user/inkbull/media/077_zps8c8952e3.jpg.html)

[pastry]

Rudra, I'll keep you posted! one male (the one in my sons tank) dissappeared and I'm afraid that I syphoned him up by accident (long story). one pair is in quarintine before going in with the discus and the other pair are at my wife's school (in her tank there). I should have the quarintine pair in the discus tank soon & they're going to be in heaven in there with all of the wood that they can zoom in & out of.

inkbull, definitely interesting to know on the water parameters. And do they prefer pairs or harems? I've read & heard both now yet I only see borellis sold in pairs rather than one male and a harem. What's the difference on the opal borellis?

[inkbull]

i like the borellii cause they can be breed in my hard tap water and no harems pairs if ya get a female to lay they will kill the other female lost 2 females like that i started with trios of opal and blue borellii only got pairs now i had my opal male kick the female off the cluch and raise the fry himself too

[pastry]

Well I think I'm fine for now but for the future, do you usually have some for sale?

[inkbull]

i try but yes i have a rather constant supply going at this point been bringing in new breeding stock lately as well apistos are my favorite and ive found this is the only one i can get to breed well in my tap

[pastry]

Sorry to re-amp an old thread but trying to find Borelli's again. Lost mine during a WC that I forgot to put prime in before filling back up with tap water (lost all lemon tetras too; most discus survived). Hoping inkBull is still around or anyone else with Borelli's that they'd like to sell. If not, any leads on someone else? I just joined apistogramma forum as well. I don't think apistodave is around anymore. Also sent an email to a guy that Joe Gargas recommended on his site but seems he's retired. Found them on a few online sites but they were ridiculous prices and/or ridiculous shipping (sorry, I'll pay high shipping for discus but not for borellis... especially after apistodave shipped 6 USPS from Oregon and it took 4 days to get to South Carolina... and they all made it just fine).

[Ryan]

Mark @ Discus Origins (a sponsor here) gets apistos from time to time. You may want to send him a message.

Jeff Michels @ Aquatic Clarity deals in a lot of apistos. He usually has several in stock. Check out his website or Facebook. I don't see borelli on his list right now.

Wet Spot currently has two varieties of borelli available: http://www.wetspottropicalfish.com