System for reducing/eliminating water changes

[dansally]

I'm in the process of planning out my next tank, and I'd like to design something that would reduce the number of water changes required per month. It's not so much reducing the work as it is reducing the amount of water used up in the process.

Does anyone have any experience/success with this they can share?

[DiscusLoverJeff]

You need to supply a couple things.

1) What size tank are you working with.
2) What type of filtration are you using?

The answer to these questions would help determine what advice to give you.

Example: If you have a 90 gallon tank and lets say 2 - Fluval 406 canister filters (with the right media) and lets say 8 adults, you can get by with 2 40% to 50% water changes per week.

See where I am going with this? So until we know what your tank size and plans are, it is hard to talk about reducing water changes.

I would however say that if you are raising juvies, the idea of less water changes would not be a good idea.

[dansally]

As weird as this sounds, I've had luck keeping discus in fully planted tanks with red cherry shrimp for clean up. I found if I kept a thick enough bed of blyxa japonica at the bottom, the discus would pick off one every now and then but couldn't get them fast enough to reduce a breeding population.

It worked well, as the RCS took care of any excess food and algae and the plants kept nitrates low to nonexistent.

Ideally, I'd be looking to duplicate this in a 75 - 90 gallon tank.

[bwssr]

I saw where somebody did something similar on youtube . He had his water flowing thru a fully planted tank in the filtration process.

[John_Nicholson]

Good luck. I have seen lots of people talk about this but I have never seen one that was truly successful. In the long run the fish have always suffered.

-john

[Skip]

Good luck. I have seen lots of people talk about this but I have never seen one that was truly successful. In the long run the fish have always suffered.

-john

+1

[dansally]

Thanks for the input, everyone. I don't want to do anything that's going to go against the welfare of the fish, but I would like this new tank to be as environmentally sound as possible.

I came across this video from someone who uses a refugium as a way to purify the water: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqdrtVYBQDY&context=C3bd6ccdADOEgsToPDskKgIpulEWDcf3a26y9LVJBc

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[rcomeau]

I have seen lots of people talk about this but I have never seen one that was truly successful. In the long run the fish have always suffered.
Yeah, or at least people never seem to post their final design, an explanation of how it addresses concerns, and healthy fish as proof over time. The frequent-water-change philosophy prevails and is the go-to advice when fish don't seem healthy. It is a particularly hard belief to break when the exact cause of unhealthy fish is almost always a speculation rather than scientifically identified (water chemistry analysis, disease/infection identification, etc.).

I automated water changes rather than tried to reduce them. Automation was the subject of this similar thread...

Why don't discus keepers do automatic water changes more often?

[Skip]

That video has been posted here several times.. out of entire duration.. all they hear is "9 wc in 6 years"... its a shame they don't notice the subtle details in rest of video

[White Worm]

Although we do agree that water changes are required, it has become pretty comical that even new people show up posting "100% daily water changes" as a cure for everything.


Yeah, or at least people never seem to post their final design, an explanation of how it addresses concerns, and healthy fish as proof over time. The frequent-water-change philosophy prevails and is the go-to advice when fish don't seem healthy. It is a particularly hard belief to break when the exact cause of unhealthy fish is almost always a speculation rather than scientifically identified (water chemistry analysis, disease/infection identification, etc.).

I automated water changes rather than tried to reduce them. Automation was the subject of this similar thread...

[musicmarn1]

if its aged, warm, aerated and cleaner than what is in the tank currently, just learning here so not arguing just asking, why wouldnt it be better than *stale* water in there with poop in it?

i had some resistance to high water changes in the start, because my husband about had a fit and really resented the hobby quickly but he saw the difference when i said *hell lets try* it, opinions are like bottoms, everyone has one.....but it DID make the discus lighten up , move more , eat more and generally be better fish to watch.

i dont do 100% but i did up the number a lot ! oh but in the PLANTED tank i do barely one change a week, and they are spawning every 7 days, i think there is merit to LOTS of ways to do things but when there is a problem, going back to clean water, is the safest route, it seems like im hearing by most people who have experience.

just to let you know it can be hard for a newcomer to sift through the advice, so many different opinions, however as a teacher in my work life, i know if your confident enough to tell someone else something you yourself learned, and worked for you, learning goes faster. id like someone to start a thread on the BARE MINIMUM of what works to produce, large, round, glowing discus :) my husband would love that one !!

mwahaha :antlers:
but until i experiment, im not going to know, so i am trying lots of things and reading lots. learning is doing and repeating to others. x infinity

[strawberryblonde]

just to let you know it can be hard for a newcomer to sift through the advice, so many different opinions, however as a teacher in my work life, i know if your confident enough to tell someone else something you yourself learned, and worked for you, learning goes faster. id like someone to start a thread on the BARE MINIMUM of what works to produce, large, round, glowing discus :) my husband would love that one !!


I don't know what works for others, and I'm sure there are many who have great success with less work than my own process, but here's what worked for me. Oh wait, let me back up a bit.

I started with a group of five 4" discus from Discus Hans. Didn't have a clue what I was doing, but experienced a mini cycle and then a blown motor in my canister filter during the first month. The result was that I ended up doing 2 water changes per day just to keep ammonia and nitrites to a minimum while my first, and then second, canister seeded themselves.

The morning WC was about 60% and the evening WC was 80%.

I also fed them 6+ times a day, alternating between a mix of flakes (combined three different products and stuffed them back into their jars), frozen beefheart and Al's freeze dried blackworms. Basically, they got fed every time I passed by the tank because they begged each and every time I walked by them. LOL

When they reached a bit over 5" I moved them to my shiny new 115g tank, added a sump and continued with two water changes per day till they reached 6" and the same feeding schedule.

When they reached 6" I reduced water changes to once per day at 80% and continued the feedings, even though most here considered them full grown. I just knew that they were constantly begging for food and didn't act like they were done growing yet.

When they reached 7+ inches I forced myself to reduce feedings to 3 larger meals per day regardless of the begging. I also reduced the amount of the daily WC to about 60% with one HUGE WC and thorough tank cleaning on Sundays.

I haven't changed that schedule yet. Still the same thing every day. LOL

The first batch of five grew to 7.5" - 9". I'm sure the 7.5" guy would have grown larger, but suffered head trauma and nerve damage that affected his ability to swim and hang with the group. I forced myself to euthanize him when it became clear that he wasn't going to recover full function. He was only a year old at that point, so was still growing.

The second batch of four 4" discus from Discus Hans grew to 8"-9" using the same method. There was one "runt" in the group. A female who found a mate and started laying eggs during her first week in the tank. She reached a bit over 6".

My third batch of discus was a group of five, NOT from Discus Hans, who brought in some problems with them. They themselves were never sick, but they sickened all the rest of my fish. I grew them out in a separate tank from 4" to 7"-8" using the same WC and feeding methods. Again, there was one "runt" female in the group who is almost 6.5" at a little over a year old. She has become one of my "tester" discus when I'm doing QT, but will be culled soon because she can't compete for food with the rest of the big guys in the tank.

And that brings me to my current batch of Hans Discus! I recently started fresh with four 6" discus from Hans. After careful QT, I added my three remaining Hans jumbo discus to their tank. I'm using the same WC and feeding schedule with them. I've had them for 5 weeks now. The largest is 7" and the smallest is 6.5". I expect them to reach the same 8-9" that all my other discus have reached.

I'm also going to be getting a brand new gaggle of baby discus from Hans this week! I've never raised 3" discus before so it will be interesting to see if there are more challenges involved in growing them out. I plan to use the method that works for me.

[strawberryblonde]

Oops! I forgot to add that I raised groups 1 and 2 with a thin layer of sand for substrate and a few pieces of large driftwood. Had plants for a short while, but they got so beaten up by the constant water changes that I gave up on them.

I raised group 3 in a bare bottom tank with no decor at all.

My new group is in my display tank with thin sand substrate and one huge sword plant that lives in a squishy pot that I placed inside of a glass vase. The plant is starting to look a bit ragged, but they like it, so I'll leave it till I can't stand it anymore. LOL

Also, I don't have to age my tap water, so I'm lucky there. My GH and KH are low, but pH is quite high and very stable.

[John_Nicholson]

Funny thing is it does cure about 85% of the issues that people have....LOL.

-john


Although we do agree that water changes are required, it has become pretty comical that even new people show up posting "100% daily water changes" as a cure for everything.

[Frankr409]

Personally, I have used a trickle system that gives the equivalent of a 25% change every two days on my Angel tank. The water is replaced with RO and reconstituted in the tank with RO Right through a dosing pump that runs 6 times per day. Twice daily, for 30 minutes each time, there is a Hydor pump that blows like hell on the bottom part of the sand bottom tank, whooping debris into the water column and removed by filtration.
The sand is dense, however and stays put.

I utilize multiple smaller feedings a day, no more than they can immediately consume. I keep scavenger fish to a minimum as well, they simply add poop, discus are expert at bottom feeding.

My tank is planted, and between the water changes, and the plants, my Nitrates are constantly low, usually under 5ppm.

I have used the same technique, albeit with higher water change amounts for Discus, and had great results. Large breeding fish, raised from little guys. The system works, it's all about monitoring water quality, TDS, PH, EC, Nitrate, etc. If I see the number rising on my EC monitor, I know immediately something is wrong either in the exhaust rate of the trickle or some other cause i.e. dirty filter, exhausted DI cartridge, etc. and I take action to correct it. I keep spares of everything on hand to make sure the action can be quick if need be.

World renown Discus breeder Jack Wattley, believed that all discus secrete a growth suppressing hormone that builds up and slows the growth rate of other Discus. Changing water get rids of this hormone apparently. So if this is true, it isn't just Nitrates that inhibit growth, it is also plays a part in slowing a Discus growth. The term for this is allelopathic.

[musicmarn1]

Again guys your collective wisdom blows me away, thank you Strawb for sharing what worked so well for you, it's obvious to me that you should make a you tube please of squishy pots and someone should sticky it ;) I keep sharing it, they really do love the plants and much cleaner that way! Those are some bloody huge discus, I can't wait to get there ;) and I ordered clove oil, because if I'm told to cull I feel more confident about doing that now to. Though I think your culls Strawb might look awesome in my tank of 4" ;) just kidding

It's also clear that huge water changes DO make a big difference, and thankyou Frank for sharing that information why. I'd love to experiment with more automated systems but I'm not afraid to do huge water changes myself.

So yes I remember not being sure why such high water changes AND cleaning, wiping, squeezing of sponges was so impt. But I think you guys make it pretty clear it works and if something is wrong, always start there.

[Skip]

just to let you know it can be hard for a newcomer to sift through the advice, so many different opinions, however as a teacher in my work life, i know if your confident enough to tell someone else something you yourself learned, and worked for you, learning goes faster. id like someone to start a thread on the BARE MINIMUM of what works to produce, large, round, glowing discus :) my husband would love that one !!

mwahaha :antlers:
but until i experiment, im not going to know, so i am trying lots of things and reading lots. learning is doing and repeating to others. x infinity

there are many opinions here.. from experienced people to non experienced people.. the proof is in the pudding.. i have visited several fish rooms/houses of discus people.. TcT, Yim11, Nicholson, D3locked, and seen the pictures of SEVERAL other SD members.. that used the proven methods..

then i see the pictures of people that chose to use alternative methods.. if they post pictures, the results are nowhere near the caliber if fish quality of the others..

so having an opinion is one thing.. learning from other peoples mistakes, so you can avoid them is priceless..

ps..
allelopathic is only defined in the plant kingdom.. its does not have to do with animals.. since people have been keeping discus for along time.. i doubt that WILD DISCUS would have developed this mechanism in the amazon jungle.. therefore.. DOMESTIC RAISED discus could NOT have EVOLVED this defensive mechanism in the last 30-40 years of being in aquariums, ask darwin... it basically comes down to water quality..

[dkeef]

I agree that u cant beat someone doing 100% wc daily to grow discus in max quality and size.
All other methods will be a short coming.
Having said that, if thats not your goal and u are ok with decent discus then there r many ways to do it. (This is not just my experience but others i know)
All depends on what yur after.
Im planning on automated wc in addition to large manual wc(but less frequent).

[strawberryblonde]

I agree that u cant beat someone doing 100% wc daily to grow discus in max quality and size.
All other methods will be a short coming.
Having said that, if thats not your goal and u are ok with decent discus then there r many ways to do it. (This is not just my experience but others i know)
All depends on what yur after.
Im planning on automated wc in addition to large manual wc(but less frequent).

The part that I bolded up above is the thing that always makes my jaw drop to my desk, till I reach over and shove it closed again. LOL

I just don't understand that philosophy. I see it on these boards often, so I know that there must be a lot of discus keepers who don't care about quality and size of their discus, but it just doesn't compute for me.

Why on earth would you spend upwards of $1000 on a smallish group of discus (I'm basing that number on the price of 10 3"-4" discus) only to give them half hearted care? If they have the potential to reach 8" or even 9" by simply putting in the effort to change water daily and feed aggressively for a year and a half, WHY wouldn't you do that? I can understand not caring so much if all you have are some $3.00 guppies or swordtails, but discus? Good lord, one decent discus costs as much as a weeks worth of groceries in my house!

I just don't get it...really I don't.

[Frankr409]

allelopathic is only defined in the plant kingdom.. its does not have to do with animals.. since people have been keeping discus for along time.. i doubt that WILD DISCUS would have developed this mechanism in the amazon jungle.. therefore.. DOMESTIC RAISED discus could NOT have EVOLVED this defensive mechanism in the last 30-40 years of being in aquariums, ask darwin... it basically comes down to water quality..

Thanks for your input, Notice I stated the opinion of Discus Expert Jack Wattley, and not FrankR409. However, and not to parse words but the Phenomena of allelopathy is well known to coral keepers, and coral are not a member of the Plant Family. They belong to the Kingdom of Animalia and not Plantea as you suggest in your reply.

For those with further interest on the topic, do a Google search on coral allelopathy and you can amuse and educate yourself for hours about the subject. So, whether discus expert Jack Wattley is correct about this, is a different story, I use the word to suggest a conceptually similar phenomenon that occurs in other animals, i.e. coral.

[Skip]

Its been discussed before that jack did not actually say that.. but it either way.. we are both correct.. :)

[Frankr409]

Its been discussed before that jack did not actually say that.. but it either way.. we are both correct.. :)

I Googled "Jack Wattley Stunt Growth" and there is quite a bit of anecdotal evidence that the theory is attributed to him, but as of around 2000 or so he was careful to change the word from "hormone" to "substance". Not trying to pester you with this, I find it fascinating if there is any truth to it.

This was one of the more promising hits, as it references e-mails alleged to be from his Partner. . http://forum.discusnews.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1482

Without a doubt though, whatever it is that is in the water, beside Nitrate that is, that causes less than optimal growth is in fact resolved by food and water changes (and not to confuse things further, but also genetics ;) )

[Skip]

Without a doubt though, whatever it is that is in the water, beside Nitrate that is, that causes less than optimal growth is in fact resolved by food and water changes (and not to confuse things further, but also genetics ;) )

it always comes back to the water.. LOL

[White Worm]

LOL, you are right but you know why from years of experience and I know why from 8 years of learning. Even now, I see a difference between every 3 days...every 2 days... once a week (while on vacation)...50%...75%. I also believe that one has to know their water before jumping in with a 100% WC...especially if you don't have the room to store aged water. This is where that advice can be touchy. I would start with 50% and then go from there depending on the reaction of the discus. I have not done a 100% WC in years because I had some unfortunate loses in the past. My new plans will allow for storing aged water so things may change.


""Funny thing is it does cure about 85% of the issues that people have....LOL.""

-john

Quote Originally Posted by White Worm View Post
Although we do agree that water changes are required, it has become pretty comical that even new people show up posting "100% daily water changes" as a cure for everything.

[Larry Bugg]

The part that I bolded up above is the thing that always makes my jaw drop to my desk, till I reach over and shove it closed again. LOL

I just don't understand that philosophy. I see it on these boards often, so I know that there must be a lot of discus keepers who don't care about quality and size of their discus, but it just doesn't compute for me.

Why on earth would you spend upwards of $1000 on a smallish group of discus (I'm basing that number on the price of 10 3"-4" discus) only to give them half hearted care? If they have the potential to reach 8" or even 9" by simply putting in the effort to change water daily and feed aggressively for a year and a half, WHY wouldn't you do that? I can understand not caring so much if all you have are some $3.00 guppies or swordtails, but discus? Good lord, one decent discus costs as much as a weeks worth of groceries in my house!

I just don't get it...really I don't.

Well I for one, think that most of the time this statement is made as a cop out not as the real belief of the person that makes the statement.

[Madaboutdiscus]

I for one am a believer of the growth hormone theory. How many times have you seen a regular fish that hardly needs water changes actually outgrow their tank? Ive had fish since I was 8 years old and that was a thing my dad always told me they wont outgrow their tank. And they never did. I cant even remember what fish I had at that time. My daughter has goldfish the giant kind that get ginormous they get a change maybe once a month and they havent outgrown their 30 gallon tank but are thriving. Theyre not koi but they can get big. I dont know who said it or if Wattley actually said it or not but I do believe it. That would be an explanation for why discus grow better with water changes. Mine seem to grow overnight at times.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

[Frankr409]

I for one am a believer of the growth hormone theory. How many times have you seen a regular fish that hardly needs water changes actually outgrow their tank? Ive had fish since I was 8 years old and that was a thing my dad always told me they wont outgrow their tank. And they never did. I cant even remember what fish I had at that time. My daughter has goldfish the giant kind that get ginormous they get a change maybe once a month and they havent outgrown their 30 gallon tank but are thriving. Theyre not koi but they can get big. I dont know who said it or if Wattley actually said it or not but I do believe it. That would be an explanation for why discus grow better with water changes. Mine seem to grow overnight at times.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2 My first reading of it was from TFH magazine in or around 2005 in Jack's own column, so I know that I have read it before in his own hand. I posted other suggestions for how to research the topic.
According to what I have read, Jack ran a lot of tests on things like this. The bottom line is water changes to flush it out, if it were about nitrates or trace elements, they can be easily be removed or added with today's technology. Frankly, your tap water might have higher nitrate levels than a well tended aquarium, so that can't be the only variable.

[Madaboutdiscus]

I agree. I think its a good theory and makes a lot of sense. My discus do seem thrive and grow rapidly with daily wcs as opposed to every other day I was doing before I realized how wrong I was about it.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

[John_Nicholson]

Jack absolutely denies every saying that there was a growth hormone involved. He said there was something in the water that would inhibit growth....

My input is what it is is dirty water...LOL...but regardless the only way to keep then going well is to change the blasted water.

-john

[Frankr409]

Jack absolutely denies every saying that there was a growth hormone involved. He said there was something in the water that would inhibit growth....

My input is what it is is dirty water...LOL...but regardless the only way to keep then going well is to change the blasted water.

-johnCorrect, pointed out the same thing earlier, he changed his terminology from hormone to the word substance around the year 2000 from what I have read. And we are back to where we have always been, large water changes. So is someone going to go out on a limb and guess what it is beside high nitrates that inhibit growth? I read anecdotally every day that people grow monster fish in nothing but tap water, but tap water is not free of nitrates. Apparently Wattley did not believe it was entirely related to Nitrates earlier.

Once again, this is an interesting post from 12 years back, a reprint of an e-mail exchange between someone seeking knowledge and an associate of Wattley. Hardly a refutation in my opinion.

http://forum.discusnews.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1482

[strawberryblonde]

Well I for one, think that most of the time this statement is made as a cop out not as the real belief of the person that makes the statement.

That could be true, but even so, WHY say it if they don't really believe it? It's gotten so common a saying around here in the last year that I always worry that newcomers will read it and assume that average is all they can expect from their discus, when my own experience says that's absolutely not true.

Let me tell ya, if I'm spending $1000 on a batch of fish I'm darned well gonna grow them into THE best fish that they can be, not toss them in a tank and pat myself on the back so long as they stay mostly healthy. Ok, I might be getting a wee bit too wrapped up in this. Need to step back and maybe go change the water in a couple of fish tanks. LOL

[musicmarn1]

That's the exact prt that gets me, if it were just simple nitrates it could be easily removed without the frequent and large wc that most experienced keepers report success with. I did a four year animal biology and biochemistry degree, if only I'd known then about discus instead of just dogs and horses, I'd have paid much better attention to those lectures ;)



My first reading of it was from TFH magazine in or around 2005 in Jack's own column, so I know that I have read it before in his own hand. I posted other suggestions for how to research the topic.
According to what I have read, Jack ran a lot of tests on things like this. The bottom line is water changes to flush it out, if it were about nitrates or trace elements, they can be easily be removed or added with today's technology. Frankly, your tap water might have higher nitrate levels than a well tended aquarium, so that can't be the only variable.


Toni I 100 zillion squill ion % agree with you, even $300 or so on the fish is far far more in food equipment, etc, it would be to me like seeing someone buy a pure bred puppy and half starve it, but still bring it to the park proudly.... It's just incomprehensible. It's one thing to make mistakes unknowingly but to argue for anything less than your absolute best in care is just plain bonkers. I think if we ALL go to NADA etc next year we will all get inspired to grow them bigger. Seeing perfect discus(potential reached) in person is not something that has happened to me yet and as smitten and dedicated as I am, I KNOW being there will take me a little bit deeper (oh God help my husband)