Rapid fin rot - can't seem to cure. Please help. (with questionnaire and pics)

[-gb-]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
I have a problem with my fish that keeps reoccurring over the last 5 months. I've tried everything I can think of and am still seeing this persist. Please help if you can.

2. Symptoms:
Rapid fin rot. White spots on fins. Low appetite. Other than that fish are acting and appear healthy. Not dark, not hiding, poop is black.

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried:
- Salt treatment for 10 days. Spots disappeared - problem seemed to be getting better.
- I have tried 2 full testaments of Quick Cure at regular dose that is recommended on the bottle. Spots disappeared - problem seemed to be getting better.
- Waited 4 weeks problem reoccurred.
- Again I tried 2 full testaments of Quick Cure at regular DOUBLE dose that is recommended on the bottle. Spots disappeared - problem seemed to be getting better.
- Waited 4 weeks problem reoccurred.
- Tried Furan-2 as directed on bottle. Spots disappeared - problem seemed to be getting better.
- Wait one month problem reoccurred.
- Current treatment day two of salt treatment. 2 tbs per 10 gallons. This is only a stop gap measure until I hear from people here on what to do next.

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
65 gallon
4 Discus fish (all add more after I get this cleared up)
1 bushy nose pleco

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
90% every 2 days

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
Tanks has been running for 15+ years. Bare Bottom with one potted plant.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
Water is aged in 60 gallon holding tank. No PH swing

8. Parameters and water source;

- temp 29.5

- ph 6.95

- ammonia reading = .25ppm

- nitrite reading 5.0ppm

- nitrate reading 0

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- RO water that is re-mineralized after filtering using Seachem powders.

9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
-No

10. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.
Tank is clean:
http://i.imgur.com/Io2iAOp.jpg
Spots & fin rot day one. It will progress very quickly if not treated:
http://i.imgur.com/8bHROdd.jpg
&
http://i.imgur.com/5eberZd.jpg

Thanks in advance for the help!
Graham

[strawberryblonde]

8. Parameters and water source;

- temp 29.5

- ph 6.95

- ammonia reading = .25ppm

- nitrite reading 5.0ppm

- nitrate reading 0

Are these numbers correct?? If so, your tank isn't cycled! If it was previously cycled, then the addition of all those meds may have killed the beneficial bacteria.

If it was me, I'd pull the one with the spotty fins and place him in a 20g. NO salt or other meds, just clean warm water. Once you do that, do a 90% water change per day on his tank using aged water. If it clears up, and I suspect that it will, then you have to look at what's in the main tank that's causing the issue.

Water quality in the main tank is a big concern if those numbers are correct. You'll need to increase your water changes to a daily change of at least 50% to reduce the toxicity of the ammonia and nitrites. You can also use a double dose of Prime to convert them to a safer and less toxic form while the tank is cycling.

For the one that you are going to put in the hospital tank, if the spots don't clear up in a week with the large daily WC's then we can move on to other treatments. If they get a LOT worse (take pics daily), then we can look at starting treatment sooner than a week from now, but at least give a clean tank with clean water a shot. At this point he's being medicated too often with "a shot in the dark" type meds.

[PP_GBR]

May I ask why you use RO instead of tap water?

[-gb-]

Hello Toni,

I would agree that my tank looks like it is not cycled. I've been fighting this problem since before the problem initially occurred. I have no idea why my tank will not cycle. These readings are correct and they only go up if I do not do frequent water changes with RO water. I should also mention that I use UV and have added a K1 media filter to help my canaster filter fight the poor water conditions. Nothing has helped. I also added Aqua Pure Aquarium to help the tank cycle but this did not help either.

I use RO water because the tap water in Toronto has 10-15pmm nitrate, .50 ammonia and .25 nitrite.

[-gb-]

I also should mention 3 of the 4 have spotty fins. The one in the picture is just easier to see.

[troysdiiscus]

How long have you had K1 filter? Normally takes 4 to 6 weeks for that to happen and if your meds killed you BB then you start that time over..you got one of the best in Toni in your corner....

I think what you are seeing is ammonia burn....

[PP_GBR]

What is Seachem powder? Add some nitrifying bacteria such as Tetra Safe Start to the tank to see if it helps. Seachem Stability (sp) is cheaper but not as good as TSS IME.

[strawberryblonde]

Ok, so we know that your water is the issue here. Discus can't thrive in those conditions and they are showing it through their tails.

First up, what type of filter do you use? How often do you clean it and better yet, how do you clean it?

Second question, what Seachem treatment are you using on your RO water? How much do you use and how often?

[strawberryblonde]

Just saw that you use a canister filter. The K1 won't be seeded yet, but the canister should have been good to go by now, unless the meds were knocking back the BB.

Soooo, back to my original question. How often do you clean the canister and how do you clean it?

[-gb-]

Thanks Troy,

It has been approximately 2 months since I did the last treatment of meds (longer than I originally thought now that I look at a calendar). The K1 media should be working I think. Especially after I added the Pure Aquarium I purchased from Chicago Discus. I also seeded the canaster filter using the Pure Aquarium balls. I turned the UV light off for a week to allow the Pure Aquarium to work.

[-gb-]

Here are pictures of my filtration setup:
http://i.imgur.com/zPBaIQt.jpg
&
http://i.imgur.com/cwY7OUz.jpg

[troysdiiscus]

color starting to change on k1, do you still use your co2 tank? How often and how do you clean your canister filter??

[-gb-]

Just saw that you use a canister filter. The K1 won't be seeded yet, but the canister should have been good to go by now, unless the meds were knocking back the BB.

Soooo, back to my original question. How often do you clean the canister and how do you clean it?

I clean the canaster filter and all hoses every 4 weeks. I rinse the media and canaster using RO water. The last time I cleaned the canaster filter was 3 weeks ago.

[-gb-]

color starting to change on k1, do you still use your co2 tank? How often and how do you clean your canister filter??

Yes I do use my co2 tank but it rarely turns on since I started using RO water along with the Sechem Alkaline and Acid buffer. I also use Equilibrium. The co2 tank is hooked up to a Aqua Controller keeping the PH very stable.

[PP_GBR]

G

You might need multi-stage filtration. Someone like Fuego100 (sp) could help you out. Good luck.

[troysdiiscus]

Yes I do use my co2 tank but it rarely turns on since I started using RO water along with the Sechem Alkaline and Acid buffer. I also use Equilibrium. The co2 tank is hooked up to a Aqua Controller keeping the PH very stable.

ok I think there might be an issue here but I will let Toni handle this, too many people throwing out things just makes it more confusing.....

[troysdiiscus]

I clean the canaster filter and all hoses every 4 weeks. I rinse the media and canaster using RO water. The last time I cleaned the canaster filter was 3 weeks ago.

and this one question for Toni to help, I am guessing you use a prefilter and clean it using tap every water change?

[strawberryblonde]

How about if you try making the whole water quality issue a whole lot simpler and easier on yourself?

Seachem Discus Trace can take the place of all the current products you are using as well as eliminating the need for the CO2.

Grab a bottle, disconnect the co2 bottle and put the current seachem products out of reach. Prep your RO barrel as usual and then do a 50% water change daily. ONLY add Discus Trace and a capful of Prime to the tank as you refill it. (no need to add them to the aging barrel)

Test the parameters immediately after filling and again prior to the next daily WC. Let me know what the results are and we can go from there. The K1 doesn't look like it's fully seeded yet, so for now let's just concentrate on improving the water quality, ie reducing the ammonia and nitrites in the water column and adding Prime to detoxify both of them.

With daily water changes your pH should remain stable.

[strawberryblonde]

and this one question for Toni to help, I am guessing you use a prefilter and clean it using tap every water change?

Thank you! I knew there was something I was forgetting to mention! LOL

I saw what I'm assuming is a pre-filter in the first pic you posted. So long as that's true, no worries on crud getting into your filter media in the canister. Soooo, when you rinse the media, be VERY gentle with it. Just a light swishing to remove any build up on the outside of the foam media and don't clean any bio balls or ceramic media. Also, don't clean the tubing, let it build up some nice crud for awhile. It helps with cycling. =)

[PP_GBR]

G:

Test the aged water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. If those numbers are still high then you need more than just RO, IMO. LOL

[-gb-]

Yes I have a pre-filter and wash it EVERY water change using tap water. I'll take your advice on how to wash the canaster and tubing. The tubing does seen to build up crud very quickly.

I've have just ordered a bottle of Prime and Discus Trace. They will be here tomorrow. Until then I'll sit tight.

Thanks Tony and everyone. I'll report back tomorrow.

[-gb-]

All the water levels are zero out of my RO filter.

edit - spoke to soon... there is ammonia out of my RO filter but I think that is to be expected.

[PP_GBR]

G:

If I was you I'd post a thread in water section. Someone like Fuego100 (sp) may help you out. Fix your tap water issue first and the rest will fall in its place.

[-gb-]

Hello PP_GBR - thanks for the recommendation. For now I'm going to stick here and receive Toni's help. You are correct that this turned out to be a water quality thread. At least I hope cleaner water helps clear up the fun rot and spots. Time will tell. I'll report in tomorrow.

[troysdiiscus]

gb, yeah the reason I wanted to let Toni see the quotes was because when I saw the co2 tank and all the buffers and additives you putting in can cause more harm than good. If one thing goes wrong the system crashes...Keep it simple and consistant and you will be fine and its way cheaper. Dont worry about the ammonia reading. you most likely have chloramine and when you use prime it breaks apart the chlorine and ammonia and nitrates to a safe level. Now I will tell you if you are using the API test kits you will most likely get a false positive. Seachem test kits and seachem ammonia alert will give you the reading for toxic ammonia. Alert you can pick up at petsmart..

[-gb-]

Good suggestion troysdiiscus. I was using an API test kit so I pulled out my Seachem ammonia test kit. I wasn't using it because I find it hard to read. Following are the results but I think I got it right this time.

from the tank 19 hours after water change:
Free = .01ppm
Total = .25ppm

From the Storage bin:
Free = O
Total = .20ppm

[-gb-]

I just received the Discus Trace and am doing some reading on it. I see that the discus trace does not buffer PH. If I stop using the Alkaline and Acid buffer won't my PH crash? I also received the bottle of Prime.

[100fuegos]

There should be no free ammonia in chlorinated water, it will bond with chlorine and form any three types of chloramines. Your GAC pre filter and later your CTO post filter in your RO unit will brake that bond and remove the chlorine part but then you will end up with ammonia in your RO water. I use zeolites in my pre filters to take care of chloramines / ammonia. One thing intrigues me, ammonia level is increasing in your tank, why is that your bio filter is not working? Prime will take care of ammonia converting it to ammonium in the WC water but only for some hours, then NH4 (low toxic ammonium) will revert to NH3 (high toxic ammonia), your low PH water will help maintain NH4.

If I were you I would stop adding all those buffers and stick to full RO water with the added trace elements, your PH will not crash with big daily WC and your bio filter should be able to take care of that NH4 (thanks to adding prime).

Your Bio filter would be my first goal once your WC water is treated like above. Can you please tell us what do you use inside your canister as filter materials and in what order? Canister looks small, please provide any info of it. Your NO2 level in tank is really really toxic.

[-gb-]

Sorry for the late reply - I ended up working until 1pm last night so I did a 60% water change with RO using Prime but did not have time to test the water. I'll do that today and report back.

To answer 100fuegos questions....
What I have in my canister filter is simple - I have it full of bio FilStar BIO-Chem Stars (http://www.aquariumsupplies.ca/filstar-chem-stars-p-933.html) and one sponge. It is a Penn-Plax cascade canister filter 700. ( http://www.amazon.com/Penn-Plax-Cascade-Canister-Filter/dp/B0002DJ9GQ/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top)

You asked, "why my bio filter is not working"? That is the big million dollar question.

You also mentioned that that with big daily water changes my PH will not crash. This is ok for now but I'd like to eventually be able to do 50-65% water change every 2 days. I'm hoping to establish a healthy tank that will not need such drastic daily maintenance. However, I'm happy to do it until we figure this thing out :)

Thanks!

[strawberryblonde]

If you're using RO water and add the Discus Trace Elements your pH won't crash even if you did water changes every other day. But you're right, for now daily is the way to go.

How are your water parameters today? Any better?

[-gb-]

Hello Tony, I'm about to do a water change. I'll let you know within the hour what my parameters are.

[-gb-]

20 hours after last water change readings are:
Free Ammonia = O
Total Ammonia = .15
Nitrates = 5.0
Nitrites = 0
PH = 6.95

After 50% water change. keeping in mind that there will still be some buffers in the water. I'd need to do a 100% water change to remove them all. I have added Prime and Discus Trace as suggested:
Free Ammonia = O
Total Ammonia = .15
Nitrates = 2.5 or there about
Nitrites = 0
PH = 6.93 and slowly falling. (will keep an eye on this.)

[100fuegos]

PH should get down a little once all those buffers are removed and stay there, do not worry. Bio filter is working or no NO3 will be found but it is not strong or big enough to handle your actual bio load. Never used or hear anything of those FilStar BIO-Chem Stars but those may be very well the source of your problems combined with a rather small canister for your tank size. With a 185 GPH flow rate (maximum provided optimal conditions and no filter material in trays) and only two trays your filter can not cope with the bio load present in your source water + the bio load from your tank. If I were you I would use at least one Cascade 1200 (if you're happy with them why change?) or another Cascade 700. My filters, 2 of them, are filled up with bio filter media and at the top just before the pump a piece of porex foam to avoid debris getting into it. All filter media are different so I can use the benefits of all of them together. From bottom to top: Lava Rock -> Clay Balls -> JBL micromec -> JBL micromec + porex foam. The two canisters are identical.

JBL e 1501 Green Line (http://www.jbl.de/en/aquatics-freshwater-products/detail/4348/jbl-cristalprofi-e1501-greenline#info)

[troysdiiscus]

I dont think your ph will drop alot more, your numbers are looking alot better. Let Toni reply but I would keep doing what your doing and keep up with WC. your ph is about where you started. keep it up and let Toni reply (aka WILT) haha saw that in thread....
20 hours after last water change readings are:
Free Ammonia = O
Total Ammonia = .15
Nitrates = 5.0
Nitrites = 0
PH = 6.95

After 50% water change. keeping in mind that there will still be some buffers in the water. I'd need to do a 100% water change to remove them all. I have added Prime and Discus Trace as suggested:
Free Ammonia = O
Total Ammonia = .15
Nitrates = 2.5 or there about
Nitrites = 0
PH = 6.93 and slowly falling. (will keep an eye on this.)

[-gb-]

Hello 100fuegos, I'm hoping that the K1 reactor will kick in soon and help cycle the tank. I have also added an external pump that turns the water over in the tank about 2 to 2.5 times an hour. Thanks for the advice, I'll give it some further thought.

Hello troysdiiscus, thanks! I will keep doing what I am doing. I think I'll know more in 24 hours. My Nitrates keep climbing up to unacceptable levels after about 12 hours but hopefully that will change.

[strawberryblonde]

Those numbers look MUCH better already! Once all the buffers are out of the tank you should see even more improvement. pH shouldn't give you a problem now that the trace elements are being added, though you may have to add a bit more than the recommended dosage...but ONLY do that after you've observed it for a few more days.

Glad to see things improving and hopefully now the K1 will kick in too.

[-gb-]

Tested water this morning 11 hours after last water change and my Nitrates are back up to 5ppm. I'll do another 50% water change late this afternoon.

[strawberryblonde]

How are the discus doing? Oh and did the pH drop any further overnight?

[PP_GBR]

Think outside the aquarium. Are you overfeeding your fish? Remove the plants for a day or two to see if they are the problems for nitrate spikes. Your tank is under stocked; with 4 discus in a 65 gal you should not have problems you're having now.

[-gb-]

No the PH seems to be holding steady. I did leave my OC2 on and I have heard it turn a few times. So it looks like the PH is climbing not dropping. I'd expect this to change after all the buffers are out of the water.

The fish are about the same - still have white dots on them but it's not getting worse. They may even be getting a bit better. I am still adding salt to the water. Appetites are still not there.

I'm thinking about adding a Purigen Reactor to help with filtration but that may be a topic for a different thread.

[-gb-]

Think outside the aquarium. Are you overfeeding your fish? Remove the plants for a day or two to see if they are the problems for nitrate spikes. Your tank is under stocked; with 4 discus in a 65 gal you should not have problems you're having now.

Good ideas - I have tried removing the plants as part of my troubleshooting last month. This did not affect anything. I don't think I'm over feeding. I'm feeding FDBW and FDBH from Dan. I also feed home made beef heart but only before water changes. Given the fishes low appetite I'm feeding small amounts 5x a day.

Last month I did a 90% water change. Left town for three days with no feedings and when I cam back my Nitrates were 10ppm. The tank isn't even able to keep up with 0 feedings.

[PP_GBR]

Until you figure out what the root of your water problem is, there is a Poly Filter Pad you could use. Put it inside your canister. Purigen reactor is excellent idea. Come and joint Paul aka afriend. He could help you sort out your issue.

@100F

Sorry I misspelled your name. Glad you here.

[troysdiiscus]

gb so things not getting worse thats good 5ppm is not that bad I run mine at 5-10. Those markings will take a week or so if everything is going in the right direction. Alittle patience because they didnt happen over night so hang in there keep doing what your doing. Since Toni is helping you stick with Toni, you wont go wrong and sometimes too many hands in causes more confusion....
Until you figure out what the root of your water problem is, there is a Poly Filter Pad you could use. Put it inside your canister. Purigen reactor is excellent idea. Come and joint Paul aka afriend. He could help you sort out your issue.

@100F

Sorry I misspelled your name. Glad you here.

[-gb-]

waiting for Toni's advice :)

[troysdiiscus]

:thumbsup:
waiting for Toni's advice :)

[PP_GBR]

If one is with open minded, one could have it both worlds. Having Toni helping within the tank issues and someone else helps outside the tank issues like water source is not a bad idea IMO.

@Troy

By no mean I tried to steer him away from Toni' help. She is the best lady here and IMO, women are better fish keepers than men in some ways but when it comes to the technical stuffs, leave it to the men. LOL. Who wants to do the man's job anyway LOL

And here is an example of another smart lady fish keeper. She fixed here water source and her fish are happy. See it for yourself. LOL

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?108714-Summer-of-Unhappy-Fishes

Peace

[-gb-]

If one is with open minded, one could have it both worlds. Having Toni helping within the tank issues and someone else helps outside the tank issues like water source is not a bad idea IMO.

@Troy

By no mean I tried to steer him away from Toni' help. She is the best lady here and IMO, women are better fish keepers than men in some ways but when it comes to the technical stuffs, leave it to the men. LOL. Who wants to do the man's job anyway LOL

And here is an example of another smart lady fish keeper. She fixed here water source and her fish are happy. See it for yourself. LOL

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?108714-Summer-of-Unhappy-Fishes

Peace

Thanks & I agree. I'm listening to everyones opinion before I make any decisions. I think want troysdiiscus was saying is wait and hear from Tony as well. Thanks PP_GBR for your advice.

I tend to react quickly and in many directions when something goes wrong with my fish. I'm trying to be slow and methodical here and travel in one direction until it's logical conclusion. See if that helps and if not 100% then take the next logical step.

Thanks everyone :)

[troysdiiscus]

Thanks thats what I was trying to say, if you are like me when I was starting out, people would give me opinions and I quickly did everything everyone told me. When I slowed down and listened to the one that has all my info and not just nuggets of it, it all made sense..
PB_GBR at no way was I trying to be disrespectful and your right about fixing the water quality issue, which is what I thiink Toni is working with him on. So other suggestions on equipment and tech stuff will come..Now now be careful with open statements like you threw out, could cause ripples...haha:argue: ;)
Thanks & I agree. I'm listening to everyones opinion before I make any decisions. I think want troysdiiscus was saying is wait and hear from Tony as well. Thanks PP_GBR for your advice.

I tend to react quickly and in many directions when something goes wrong with my fish. I'm trying to be slow and methodical here and travel in one direction until it's logical conclusion. See if that helps and if not 100% then take the next logical step.

Thanks everyone :)

[strawberryblonde]

Yup yup, I agree that fixing the water problems is the key to licking this thing.

For now, go slowly and just keep up with the water changes and removing the buffers. Once all that is done you'll have a better picture of how the discus are responding. SO glad to hear that they seem a wee bit better!!! =)

The purigen reactor, etc is all fine, but not really needed right now and might obscure the actual water issues.

Oh and I agree with Troy, nitrates at less than 5ppm isn't bad at all! You have to expect some nitrates, they'll never be zero unless the tank is uncycled.

Ammonia is converted to nitrites, which is then converted to nitrates. Totally normal to find them in the tank and not harmful to discus unless they rise and stay above 10ppm for a prolonged period.

Can't wait to see how the pH behaves once all the buffers are out of the tank. It sounds like the RO plus Discus Trace is doing the trick for you.

[-gb-]

Thanks Tony, I'll do another 50% water change early evening and post updates as I see changes.

[-gb-]

Friday's 50% water change. Test done before I changed the water:
Free = O
Total = .20ppm
Nitrates = 4.0 (looking better)
Nitrites = 0
PH = 6.95

Question... should I be adding Prime and Discus Trace for the entire tank volume or just the amount of water I'm changing?

[troysdiiscus]

ok gb looking good~!!!! nitrates at 4 is :thumbsup: ph stable, check... when adding prime do it for the entire tank volume....add to the tank not aging barrel...

[-gb-]

Thanks Troy, I may have spoken a little to soon on the PH. In the 15min since I've done the water change it's dropped to 6.75. I seems to be holding there but I'll keep an eye on it.

Do I also add Discus trace for the entire tank volume? I did this time.

[troysdiiscus]

Ok ph is still fine.... humm....not sure gb about the trace, I used it along time ago, I remember I used one cap full for every 20 gallons, if I remember correctly. I would say on trace to add only what you put back in that has not been treated. I would think you could elavate it too much....but not really sure about that one...

[strawberryblonde]

Yup yup on the Prime...dose for the entire tank.

For the trace elements, dose for the amount of water you are adding back at each water change, but then add for the FULL tank volume once per week since the elements are consumed by the discus over a weeks time.

Nitrates and pH are looking good...whew! =)

[-gb-]

The buffets are finally clearing up. The PH after today's water change has decreased from 6.95 to 6.28 and falling. Should I be worried?

[PP_GBR]

G

What are your goals now? Trying to maintain GH or KH or both?

[-gb-]

I'll be honest the GH or KH only really concern me as they pertain to holding a steady PH. If everything is stable I'm happy. The PH was at 6.0 and looking like it was going to drop further over night so I added a bit of the buffers to stabilize the PH.

So my issues now are:
1) PH not stable
&
2) The fish still have whites dotes as pictured in my first post and low appetites. That has not changed. I'v been adding salt but that is only making the problem manageable and does not seem to be a cure.

12 hours after my last water change and my Nitrates = 3.0. So we're still looking good on that front. I'd like to go to every other day for water changes and see if my tank can handle the bio load for that long.

[PP_GBR]

Seachem Replenish is used with RO/DI to maintain GH. For KH, I'd add couple handful of crush coral in the canister.

[trungnguyen]

my fish had that problem before, but after the medication it got better. The medication is called Furan-2, it's kinda like antibiotic.
Here is the link: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4827

I put my fish to a QT tank (20 gallons), bare bottom and sponge filter, temp. 86, and used tap water only. I made the full dose of medication everyday (1 small bag is for 10 gallons). After 24 hours, made a big water change (about 90%) and continued dosing the medication about 6 days to a week. After day 3, I saw a lot of improvements on my fish, and after day 5 I did not see it anymore...I put it back to the main tank after a week....and decided to treat the whole tank...now I don't see any problem like that anymore....When I used the medication, the water was like green color, but it did not affect the fish anything. They were normal eating and swimming, even laying eggs...
I have read your thread for a while, and I noticed that you have had the problem like I had before....I hope those little information could help you....good luck. :D

[trungnguyen]

sorry, I just realized that you already tried the Furan-2...

[-gb-]

trungnguyen - I tried Furan-2 the last time this popped up and it worked in getting rid of the white dots but the problem has resurfaced. So did it really work? I don't know. I'd like to try something different this time around. Hoping Toni may have some suggestions.

[trungnguyen]

I see. Yeah I tried for mine last time and it worked. You could try pp...

[-gb-]

I see. Yeah I tried for mine last time and it worked. You could try pp...

PP = PraziPro ??

[trungnguyen]

Potassium permanganate, but I just did some researches and found out pp doesn't treat the white spots on fin...

[-gb-]

ok - thanks. Hopefully Toni can reconnect with some suggestions.

[strawberryblonde]

Hi there,

I know the spots have you worried, but for now they're secondary to your water stability problems. Once you have that under control, the spots will go away. Most of the experts I've spoken with surmise that the spots we see on the fins are an encysted form of bacteria. It's doesn't kill the discus so long as you leave it alone and correct whatever is causing it to occur.

Mine get those spots once in a awhile...usually if they've been fighting over a female or I've skipped a water change here or there.

For you, it seems to be the lack of stability in your pH. Now that you're doing daily water changes and adding the discus trace elements I would have expected it to stabilize since the two major components of discus trace are magnesium chloride and calcium chloride.

At today's water change can you try doubling the dose you normally put in and see if that makes a difference?

[-gb-]

Thanks for the advice Toni - I'll double the dose of Discus Trace and report back.

Should I stop the salt treatment? Its been running for 9 days.

[-gb-]

I did a 75% water change tonight and the PH dropped to 6.40. I have a feeling it will drop further tomorrow after the remaining buffers I put in yesterday are decreased by a water change.

I did add 2x the Discus Trace but that didn't have an effect that I can see

Thanks for the continued help look like I still have some work to do.

I also sopped the salt treatment.

[strawberryblonde]

Ok, just to recap your water change procedures so that I'm sure of what you're doing:

You prepare RO water and hold it in a barrel overnight, then remineralize it using the Seachem Discus Trace Elements, right? And you're doing a water change every day.

If that's the case I just don't understand why the pH isn't remaining stable...it doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe could you post in the water section of the forums and ask for some water experts to advise you on what they think is happening and why remineralized RO water isn't holding a nice steady pH? Maybe they'll be able to get to the root of the problem so we can lick this thing once and for all.

[-gb-]

Thanks Toni,

Yes you are correct in regards to my current water change regiment. I'll repost in the water section tomorrow morning.

Thanks again for your help here, I really appreciate your and everyones input.

[PP_GBR]

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/DiscusTrace.html
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Replenish.html

[nc0gnet0]

Discus trace elements is just that, the trace elements removed by RO. It is not meant as a buffering product. For that you will want something like RO right or the seachem equivalent (forget the name atm). Stick with the powders and not the liquids.

[PP_GBR]

Master Rick

Does it ring a bell, Seachem Reef Builder Calcium and Reef buffer?

[nc0gnet0]

Master Rick

Does it ring a bell, Seachem Reef Builder Calcium and Reef buffer?

PP_NACL

Ihave never used those products, I would recomend this:



http://www.petmountain.com/product/aquarium-ph-conditioners/11442-503301/seachem-neutral-regulator.html?utm_source=googleproductads&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term={keyword}&gclid=CJG0xKyO5LkCFRDl7AodmSkARA

[-gb-]

Hi nc0gnet0 & PP_GBR, I was using Seachem Alkaline and Acid buffer along with Seachem Equilibrium. Is this what you'd recommend?

It looks like it's very similar to Seachem Neutral Regulator but without the chlorine, chloramine, or ammonia remover. I don't need to worry about chlorine, chloramine, or ammonia given my current filtration and water parameters.

[PP_GBR]

Master Rick

I have not used these two products in my discus tanks but my flowerhorn tank. I know Eddie used them in his fry tanks. IME with Seachem Discus Trace, it does not maintain GH but Replenish does. If you compare the two product analysis then you know what I'm talking about.

I have a bottle of Seachem Neutral Regulator unopened. May try it soon.

[PP_GBR]

G

I have not tried Seachem NG because I have very soft water with zero GH. According to Seachem, NG will soften your water. If that the case then you're defeating your purpose of maintaining GH.

Experts, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[PP_GBR]

G

You might try out Al's method. It's cheaper for you in the long run.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?107203-Holy-Soft-Water-pH-crash


HTH