Beware of Pigeon Strains

[David Bishop]

Hans silver pigeon blood discus will not look the same in a tank with dark substrate as it looks on his website. His pictures show beautiful fish without any peppering or freckling.

When I ordered I told Hans I did not want fish with freckling. He said Pigeons could have some freckling, but he would pic some good fish for me.

The longer I have this fish, the worse the freckling becomes. I hope you can click and see the picture. This fish is worse than the culls sold to LFS. I thought Hans was the premier breeder/dealer. I asked for a refund because I requested fish without freckling, but Hans refused. I will not order from Hans again.

[John_Nicholson]

1 the fish is not grown, Second You need to change your gravel. No mysteries here. PB's will often show peppering when put over dark substrate. What are your other water conditions? If the fish stress out for otehr reasons? How often do you change water? What do you feed? There are lots of other things that can lead to a PB showing pepper other than the quality of the fish itself.

-john

[Nu2Discus]

I'm no discus expert, but I think you'll get that peppering when you have a dark substrate and background like you have in your tank. It's something that the fish does. I think it's trying to blend in, and it gets darker. I think you'll see that effect no matter who you buy discus from. If you remove the dark substrate and background, the fish will probably lose the peppering. It's not Hans' fault, he can't change the DNA of the fish.

[yim11]

Good luck finding one that wont pepper in that tank and setup.

[troysdiiscus]

+1 Do you have other fish in there? Do you have any other PB in the tank?
1 the fish is not grown, Second You need to change your gravel. No mysteries here. PB's will often show peppering when put over dark substrate. What are your other water conditions? If the fish stress out for otehr reasons? How often do you change water? What do you feed? There are lots of other things that can lead to a PB showing pepper other than the quality of the fish itself.

-john

[Second Hand Pat]

Where is the picture of the fish on the day you received it?

[lipadj46]

Also as a quality fish grows the peppering will spread out (for lack of better words) and the fish will be less peppered. I had some pigeons that were heavily peppered when young and when I grew them out properly in a bare bottom tank they would never show the peppering. Those were much lower quality fish than stendkers also. I would ditch the blue gravel anyhow and go with light colored pool filter sand.

[discuspaul]

Sorry David, but you can't blame that on Hans assuming you wanted the silver pigeon in the first place, and that's what you ordered.
I'm quite sure Hans didn't know you would be keeping it in a tank with a very dark background and substrate .
If it had been kept in a bb tank with white bottom, or with a layer of white sand, it would likely still look like it did when you first received it from Hans.

[LizStreithorst]

Sorry, son. You keep a PB in a dark tank with gravel and you expect it to look great and feel great? This ain't Hansie's fault. I wouldn't have refunded your money either. I'm sure he's glad to be rid of you. You'll have to go bark up another tree. You won't find much sympathy here.

[Tony C]

Is it just me or does the fish look a bit stunted? Like the others I fail to see how Hans could be responsible for the results of sub-optimal care.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

If you done your research before buying PB from anyone you would know that they will pepper in dark substrate and bad water quality.

You can easily fix this simply by changing the substrate as John mentioned. Let us know your water conditions and maybe we can help you get your discus back to normal.

Let us help you. Thats what the forum is for.

[John_Nicholson]

Is it just me or does the fish look a bit stunted? Like the others I fail to see how Hans could be responsible for the results of sub-optimal care.

I don't think it is stunted. I think it is a bad camera angle and also less than steller conditions. Its fins are not out and it is stressed.

-john

[Madaboutdiscus]

I don't think it is stunted. I think it is a bad camera angle and also less than steller conditions. Its fins are not out and it is stressed.

-john

I didnt think it looked healthy. It does look very stressed. Dave please post your wc schedule filter etc. Listen to these guys and youll have a beautiful healthy fish in no time.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

[DiscusLoverJeff]

I must say that when newbies come here to vent, at least follow up with on the original thread and not be afraid to get feedback. I hate one-sided threads.

[Allwin]

Hello David, Sorry this fish didn't grow as expected. Possible share the pics of other fishes u have, unless u mention WC schedule frequency+water params, its really hard to justify. As most of the cases, PB strains pepper in dark bg.

Hans got good reputation all over and negative critics are unusual.Personally, I'm a big fan of his fish and experience.


Hans silver pigeon blood discus will not look the same in a tank with dark substrate as it looks on his website. His pictures show beautiful fish without any peppering or freckling.

When I ordered I told Hans I did not want fish with freckling. He said Pigeons could have some freckling, but he would pic some good fish for me.

The longer I have this fish, the worse the freckling becomes. I hope you can click and see the picture. This fish is worse than the culls sold to LFS. I thought Hans was the premier breeder/dealer. I asked for a refund because I requested fish without freckling, but Hans refused. I will not order from Hans again.

[discuspaul]

Yes David, you've been a member here for a full year with only one post, so you must have been doing a lot of lurking, and surely you know what to expect from members here. So let's hear from you - if you step up your efforts to achieve & maintain good water quality, and change up your substrate & the dark tank surroundings, you may be able to do wonders with that little guy.

[David Bishop]

How would you change the substrate without harm to the fish

[David Bishop]

I do have other fish that are fine. Also one blue pigeon who has some peppering, but far less than the silver.

[David Bishop]

He could have warned me when I told him before shipping I did not want fish with peppering.

[troysdiiscus]

well this is like a Paul Harvey saying....."NOW YOU KNOW THE REST OF THE STORY"...........so first mistake was coming on here half cocked bashing a well known sponsor and breeder that we all know is more than fair, shoots up red flags...because you can take the best genetic PB from the BEST breeder in the world and you would have the same fish you have in your tank now. So lets try to help you and re-gain the fish and its health but you must want the help so we need some answers.....

[David Bishop]

Is the gravel the only problem, or a dark background also? Stores I checked don't even sell white background.

[discuspaul]

That's no problem. Get yourself a plastic scoop, go slow & easy, and take it out small shovelfuls at a time. Do it over a couple of days if need be, so as not to stress the fish any further. You won't hurt it. And please do tell us your water change routine, and params, as others have asked, & we'll try to help you maintain good conditions for that young discus.
And yes, dark background is a problem, as well as the dark substrate.
You must have a pool supply store somewhere near you that has & sells white pool filter sand.

[John_Nicholson]

You can remove the gravel when you siphon out the tank. While I prefer bare bottom tanks lots of members here will use a light color sand. Not sure the best way to get it in the tank without it clouding up. maybe a plant tank person can help with that.

Good luck.

-john

[David Bishop]

My water is good. I didn't realize how bad the pigeon blood peppering would be in my tank. I thought that was bred out by advanced breeders. I will need to either change the substrate or remove the fish.

[David Bishop]

Thanks

[David Bishop]

Temp 86, PH- 7.2, Nitrate 0, Nitrite 0, Ammonia 0, On the hard side

Hans recommended higher ph while others recommend low ph.

I change 50% once or twice per week.

[abuckley75]

You need to be changing 50% a day/ every other day. All depends on how much and what you are feeding. 50% once or twice a week will only work for adults.

[abuckley75]

Also don't mess with the PH. Stability in the number is more important then the number itself.

[David Bishop]

I posted wc schedule etc on another reply. Clearly there has been some stress in the tank switching over from community to all discus. I had one healthy snow white originally who was a bully to the four from Hans. I added three more and the bullying stopped, but it has been stressful on the fish. Everyone is eating now and otherwise healthy. Im not sure I can maintain the pristine kind of tank with daily water changes to keep a silver pigeon clean. Didn't realize this would be an issue. Thought that was bred out of them.

[discuspaul]

You don't need to remove the fish, Dave, just change the substrate.
If you can find white, or light-coloured PFS, you can just add it to your tank after removing the gravel, and once it has been rinsed somewhat. Most PFS is quite clean, free of dust, dirt & grime, so shouldn't cloud the water in your tank. If it does, it will clear up quite fast.

[David Bishop]

What is PFS? Obviously everyone on this site knows more about discus than I do. I've only dreamed of setting up a discus tank for many years and finally did it. I'll remove this post after collecting everyone's advice.

[Larry Bugg]

I posted wc schedule etc on another reply. Clearly there has been some stress in the tank switching over from community to all discus. I had one healthy snow white originally who was a bully to the four from Hans. I added three more and the bullying stopped, but it has been stressful on the fish. Everyone is eating now and otherwise healthy. Im not sure I can maintain the pristine kind of tank with daily water changes to keep a silver pigeon clean. Didn't realize this would be an issue. Thought that was bred out of them.

The daily w/c is not to help with the peppering on the p/b. It is what you will have to do in order to grow out ANY young discus to it's potential. At 50% once or twice a week your discus will end up stunted. I'm worried about the water params you gave us. You shouldn't have zero Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. If the ammonia and nitrite are zero you should be showing some nitrates.

[Keith Perkins]

What is PFS? Obviously everyone on this site knows more about discus than I do. I've only dreamed of setting up a discus tank for many years and finally did it. I'll remove this post after collecting everyone's advice.

There are a LOT of people here who started with the same knowledge as you have now, don't sweat that. There are several good primers in the basics for beginners section that would be worth your time reading.

[Tony C]

How are you testing, strips or liquid test kits?

[discuspaul]

What is PFS? Obviously everyone on this site knows more about discus than I do. I've only dreamed of setting up a discus tank for many years and finally did it. I'll remove this post after collecting everyone's advice.

Sorry, Dave, PFS is pool filter sand - I had mentioned that in a previous post and thought you had picked up on it.

[Skip]

If uf lighten up the tank.. sans black sand.. it may lighten up alittle

[LizStreithorst]

Thanks

If your nitrate is 0 your tank is not cycled.

[David Bishop]

Sorry. How much sand would you put in a 55 gal?

[David Bishop]

Nitrate is actually around 10

[David Bishop]

Isn't black sand dark rather than light?

[Vieira]

My Silver pigeon from Han she is small but I think she is beautiful.http://www.flickr.com/photos/103086029@N08/9907862826/

[du3ce]

30-40lbs should fill it

[discuspaul]

PFS doesn't come in black, or any dark color - just white, sand/light beige, light grey, or pinkish.

[LizStreithorst]

Nitrate should be closer to 5.

[Allwin]

Bare bottom is more preferable to grow-out juvis and to ease WC. But it depends how u want ur tank looks..


Isn't black sand dark rather than light?

[Madaboutdiscus]

You will become a BIG fan of bb when you do 10000 wcs and have to deal with sand while theyre babies. Sand can hide nasties too just like gravel just not as bad.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

[Second Hand Pat]

David, do you mind if I re-title this thread and move it to the general section. At this point this thread seems to be less of a livestock review but more of a misunderstanding of how the tank substrate and background can affect a PB.
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

You would be doing him a big favor if you did that, Pat. But he came here blaming his poorly looking fish on Hansie. I think this thread should stand as it is.

[Second Hand Pat]

Liz, being that he is new to this and was willing listen and ask questions I think a little forgiveness is in order. However, I do understand your point :)

[LizStreithorst]

Pat, no rules have been broken in this thread so I see nothing that should be modified. We all make mistakes. He made one when he posted this thread. People have offered help. Give him the opportunity to put this behind him and take the advice given. But the thread should stand as is.

[Second Hand Pat]

Liz, I am only offering to re-title the thread as the only "modification" and move it from the livestock section to the general since it really is not a livestock review. The thread content remains as is.

[LizStreithorst]

I consider it to be a livestock review. He entitled it as he chose. But you're the boss here, not me. Do as you see fit.

[Second Hand Pat]

Liz, it was a offer to the OP. I'm good either way.

[LizStreithorst]

My advice to the OP is to have a bit of guts, let it stand as is and move on. We will all be interested in seeing how the fish does when he follows the good advice given here. I also think that he owes Hansie an apology for slamming him, but that's up to him.

[David Bishop]

ok

[David Bishop]

I repeat that I requested fish that did not freckle before the order shipped. Maybe I should have known better, but we don't know what we don't know. Other strains of discus don't have this freckling problem. I have a snow white, blue diamond, gold crystal, red leopard, ruby red, tefee, and none of them are "ugly" because of the gravel. I doubt all pigeons look this way either.

[Discusdude7]

It's not only what color gravel/background you have that causes peppering but also water quality.

[David Bishop]

I support changing the subject and moving the thread. Obviously everyone on this forum except me knew pigeons are unattractive in a dark substrate tank. I don't think I want to go bare bottom and not sure about sand. May just get rid of the pigeons.

[SMB2]

David, this is not an all or none problem.
You are starting out with young fish. The object is to grow them out as big and healthy as possible. As far as most people here are concerned, myself included, you have made one very wise choice. You have purchased your fish from a very reputable source. So your discus have a lot of potential.
For now, John has (not surprisingly) the best idea. During your DAILY (aged) water changes, siphon some of the gravel out each exchange. This will take the detritus with it and not stir up the tank.
For now, go with a BB tank so you can feed the young fish multiple times a day, while maintaining good water quality. This will allow the fish to grow which will also help to minimize the peppering.
In the meantime start thinking about a new more natural layout for the tank. Lots of ideas here on SD. Do some substrate research, etc.
When the fish are 5.5-6 inches then finalize your show tank. It is all a process that will take some time. No need to get rid of your fish. Then you can back off feedings and WCs and enjoy what you have accomplished.
Keep this thread going with pictures. Laugh off the snarky replies, everybody here, everybody, has stressed over their fish.

[Ryan]

David,

Just curious -- do any of the non-pigeon fish show vertical bars? Can you post some pictures of the others?

Thanks,
Ryan

[TNT77]

David,

Just curious -- do any of the non-pigeon fish show vertical bars? Can you post some pictures of the others?

Thanks,
Ryan
I was wondering the same thing Ryan since there are fish from different sources and I doubt there was a quarantine.

[bornlooser]

I have never owned Stendkers....but , from the pics that i have seen here , Stendkers seem to relatively have more Peppering than Asian discus...Kennys fish for example.

[Quintin]

Im new to discus myself.And when i started i put white gravel with clown puke pebbles (As sumone put it.but at second glance it realy did look loike clown puke)all because i read somewhere that a dark tank will cause discus in general to go dark (but there is mush more to it than that.All i know about pigeons thus far is that they have had the vertical bars bred out of them.)I have removed my clown puke and gn bare bottom with some pots and little decor kept my water prestine and my fishys are very bright and happy (ps my first 2 turks were considered a bad breed but even they look great.I dnt buy from hans as im in south africa so i cant comment on his fish but every one here seems to think highly of him.Blood worms from unreliable sources can also have parasites which can make your fish wonky at times.Here are some pics of my tank used to be and how it is now.Even my Bad breeds are looking good.a Dark tank as far as im concerned doesnt work well with discus.
Dont be to proud to be wrong sometimes the people here have quite a bit of experience.
I hope SD peeps dont mind me adding my opinion.
PS dont get rid of ur fish some work and you should be back on track

[Elliots]

PFS can also be bought at hardware stores. I live in NYC, (Manhattan) not too many pools in my neighborhood but I ordered my PfS from an Ace Hardware store and it came in within a few days.

[DLFL]

Here is a strain of pigeon blood from Hans called fire Red. I got it around a year ago.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z97/DLFL/Discus/1a03baf1-a46e-4d37-9c00-dac1e7180748_zps8b64b06c.jpg (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/DLFL/media/Discus/1a03baf1-a46e-4d37-9c00-dac1e7180748_zps8b64b06c.jpg.html)

[pastry]

One-thing i understand from this thread, just use the keyword "Hans" for much faster response in SD. Forgive me :)

LMAO! Allwin, that's the truth. I saw the title, then saw the post count, and finally looked and saw when it was created and thought "WTH???"

By the way, what's freckling? Never seen that used for describing a trait and I'm assuming Dave doesn't mean the peppering? Or if he does mean the peppering then wait until it grows out. Nail down the optimal conditions, make the fish happy, and then see how it changes over time. There really aren't too many discus that look the same big as they did young (probably none at all). In that case, as shooters may be familiar with this term, Hans may have been using "Kentucky Windage". He knows his strains & fish so he may have had the best idea on what you wanted when it grew out. I don't know, just taking a swipe.

A few more Q's: What are the white spots on the tail? Is that pic after a WC? Meanwhile, put in the time to grow it out and let's see how it turns out. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[Skip]

He means peppering..

[John_Nicholson]

I repeat that I requested fish that did not freckle before the order shipped. Maybe I should have known better, but we don't know what we don't know. Other strains of discus don't have this freckling problem. I have a snow white, blue diamond, gold crystal, red leopard, ruby red, tefee, and none of them are "ugly" because of the gravel. I doubt all pigeons look this way either.

The reason it drew this kind of response is not because you did not know the basic facts about discus....you drew this kind of response because you did not know the basic rules of discus and you attacked Hans. What is more disturbing is that now you are becoming educated and it appears that you still are not taking any responsibility for the issue nor have you said your sorry to Hans. You have been asked several times for pictures of your other discus but yet we have not seen those yet. I don't believe you came here looking for solutions you just wanted to cause a stink.

-john

[SMB2]

Funny thing is, I have been to Hans "fish room" and seen every tank, with all ages/sizes and strains of discus. I never saw one fish that was peppered... curious.

[David Bishop]

Sorry for the slow reply, but I don't stay at my computer 24/7. I do appreciate the helpful replies. I'm considering removing all the gravel and going bb till they grow up. I'll try to post more pics later.

The spots on the tail are air bubbles. I have two air wants helping create good oxygen and circulation.

[Vieira]

80290


Richard

[Ryan]

I've pruned this thread and moved it out of the Livestock Review forum. Since this thread has turned into more of a general knowledge thread about pigeon-based discus, I am moving it into the General forum.

Let's please drop the snark. Not everyone is an expert. The quickest way to help David is to educate him, and guide him to providing a more suitable arrangement for his pigeon-based fish so that it can grow out and hopefully show less peppering.

David, please do post pictures of your other fish when you get a chance. There is a method to my madness.

Also, if you are still unhappy with your fish, you're more than welcome to create another thread in the Livestock Review forum. That thread will be open to first-hand experiences only and any bashing, snark, or otherwise will be edited out as that section of the board is designed for reviews only.

[Elliots]

I have been to Hans and I think I saw very slight peppering on some fish, a few dots. It was not extensive or distasteful, I considered it normal for pigeons. Also my memory could be faulty because when I selected my fish I did not consider peppering at all.
I was more concerned with the blue stripes and body color. My pigeon derived fish all have slight peppering, it is OK with me I have not been to any other breeders or sponsors and I would not hesitate to buy fish there again with or without peppering.
I looked at the orig. posters photo and it did look like "Freckles" but it was on the body sides and the head area when my fish have some dots. That could be extensive peppering but the photo really looks like freckles.
I did not see any fish at Hans that looked like that photo and I think if Hans had a fish that looked like that he would not ship it. If that fish really came from Hans it went far downhill.

[farebox]

Pls don't blame Mr. Hans for your mis fortunate. All info would of told you dark substrate and background=peppering with that strain of discus my friend. Heave to these folks @SD will=successful discus. Just my two cents.

[strawberryblonde]

Hi Dave and welcome to the forums! =)

I didn't post yesterday mostly because I was too tired out from changing water in the tanks to spend time repeating what others were saying about 1) the quality of Hans discus, 2) the importance of water quality on peppering in pigeon bloods and 3) the need to eliminate the "triggers" that case all that peppering you're seeing.

But, today is a nice fresh day and I don't have to start water changes for another 30 minutes, so here I am. LOL

I thought maybe a solid plan of action might help you out with what to do next for your discus. The MOST important things to know about juveniles is that they need constant clean water and lots of fresh food several times a day. Ready?

Since you have pigeon bloods, the gravel needs to go. The bottom of your tank will need to be painted so that they can't see their reflections, so here's how to get your tank into good shape. To make this all as easy on yourself as possible, try this:

1) Grab a clean 5 gallon bucket. Fill it with fresh tap water and water conditioner (I like Prime or Safe, but even the Tetra product is fine), then add the tank heater and an air stone.

2) Once the temp of the water in the bucket matches your tank temps, gently catch the discus and place them into the bucket.

3) Now empty your tank and remove the gravel, then wipe it all out and dry it.

4) Once it's dry, flip it over and paint the bottom with any white or beige paint that you have hanging around. You can also remove the background and paint the back of the tank white if you want to do that - it helps with the peppering and also lightens up the tank quite a bit. If you use standard latext paint it will be easy to remove it later on when you want to change colors.

5) Once the tank is painted and dry, flip it back over and fill it with fresh tap water, then condition it to remove chlorine and chloramines.

6) Now put the heater, filter and ONE air stone back into the tank and check the temps. When they match the bucket, gently pick up your discus and plop them into the tank.

Next up is lighting. It definitely affects peppering as I've seen it in my own tank. Lights out, my Hans discus have slight peppering on their noses. Light on, all peppering quickly disappears. You want medium lighting. No need to blind them. =)

And last is food. Discus grow incredibly fast during the first year of life, then more slowly during the second year. They require a high protein diet and as juveniles they need to eat several times a day. I feed mine three different foods during the day.
1) Discus flake foods that I mix together with Tetra bits and Spirulina flakes
2) Al's Freeze Dried Blackworms
3) San Fransisco Bay Brand Frozen Beefheart cubes

Mine get fed the flake mix just as soon as I get up in the morning. After that, they get the freeze dried blackworms cubes all day. If you have to leave the house for work, stick 3 of the cubes to the glass on the side of the tank and they will eat them all day long. As soon as you walk back in the door, give them a frozen beefheart cube. Give them another one just before your evening water change and after the water change, give them a bedtime snack of freeze dried blackworms.

In the beginning they might refuse to eat most of those foods till they get a taste for them, but be consistent and just keep feeding...eventually they will get used to it and start to gobble it down!

The last thing is the water changes. Aim for either 1 80 - 90% water change per day, or 2 smaller 50% water changes (I like the 2 per day method since changing 50% is very quick).

You should see some immediate improvement in the peppering on your silver pigeon, and then even more improvement over the course of a couple of weeks as the water conditions, amount of food and lack of substrate really change how he reacts to his environment.

Let me know if you have questions, ok?

[David Bishop]

Wow Richard,

What kind of background and substrate is that?

[Madaboutdiscus]

Hi Dave and welcome to the forums! =)

I didn't post yesterday mostly because I was too tired out from changing water in the tanks to spend time repeating what others were saying about 1) the quality of Hans discus, 2) the importance of water quality on peppering in pigeon bloods and 3) the need to eliminate the "triggers" that case all that peppering you're seeing.

But, today is a nice fresh day and I don't have to start water changes for another 30 minutes, so here I am. LOL

I thought maybe a solid plan of action might help you out with what to do next for your discus. The MOST important things to know about juveniles is that they need constant clean water and lots of fresh food several times a day. Ready?

Since you have pigeon bloods, the gravel needs to go. The bottom of your tank will need to be painted so that they can't see their reflections, so here's how to get your tank into good shape. To make this all as easy on yourself as possible, try this:

1) Grab a clean 5 gallon bucket. Fill it with fresh tap water and water conditioner (I like Prime or Safe, but even the Tetra product is fine), then add the tank heater and an air stone.

2) Once the temp of the water in the bucket matches your tank temps, gently catch the discus and place them into the bucket.

3) Now empty your tank and remove the gravel, then wipe it all out and dry it.

4) Once it's dry, flip it over and paint the bottom with any white or beige paint that you have hanging around. You can also remove the background and paint the back of the tank white if you want to do that - it helps with the peppering and also lightens up the tank quite a bit. If you use standard latext paint it will be easy to remove it later on when you want to change colors.

5) Once the tank is painted and dry, flip it back over and fill it with fresh tap water, then condition it to remove chlorine and chloramines.

6) Now put the heater, filter and ONE air stone back into the tank and check the temps. When they match the bucket, gently pick up your discus and plop them into the tank.

Next up is lighting. It definitely affects peppering as I've seen it in my own tank. Lights out, my Hans discus have slight peppering on their noses. Light on, all peppering quickly disappears. You want medium lighting. No need to blind them. =)

And last is food. Discus grow incredibly fast during the first year of life, then more slowly during the second year. They require a high protein diet and as juveniles they need to eat several times a day. I feed mine three different foods during the day.
1) Discus flake foods that I mix together with Tetra bits and Spirulina flakes
2) Al's Freeze Dried Blackworms
3) San Fransisco Bay Brand Frozen Beefheart cubes

Mine get fed the flake mix just as soon as I get up in the morning. After that, they get the freeze dried blackworms cubes all day. If you have to leave the house for work, stick 3 of the cubes to the glass on the side of the tank and they will eat them all day long. As soon as you walk back in the door, give them a frozen beefheart cube. Give them another one just before your evening water change and after the water change, give them a bedtime snack of freeze dried blackworms.

In the beginning they might refuse to eat most of those foods till they get a taste for them, but be consistent and just keep feeding...eventually they will get used to it and start to gobble it down!

The last thing is the water changes. Aim for either 1 80 - 90% water change per day, or 2 smaller 50% water changes (I like the 2 per day method since changing 50% is very quick).

You should see some immediate improvement in the peppering on your silver pigeon, and then even more improvement over the course of a couple of weeks as the water conditions, amount of food and lack of substrate really change how he reacts to his environment.

Let me know if you have questions, ok?

Sounds like a plan. This is awesome.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

[Kal-El]

Wow Richard,

What kind of background and substrate is that?

It's just a bare bottom tank with the the sides and bottom either painted with white latax paint or spray paint. If you do the same your PB will clear up it's peppering just like his... Of course water quality is another factor in keeping PB from being stress and peppering...

[Vieira]

Wow Richard,

What kind of background and substrate is that?

I just paint the outside of the tank.


Richard

[David Bishop]

80298802998030080301

Alright Friends,

I have removed the gravel and background doing a 50% wc and dosing melafix and stresscoat to counter bad bacteria. I have attempted to post some pictures, but limited. Fish are just now adjusting to the change.

In fairness to Hans, I should have titled my post "Beware of buying light colored pigeon strains if you have a dark substrate and are not prepared to do 50% water changes daily. They will not look the same in your tank as they do in the pictures."

My post was intended to warn new discus hobbyists not to make the same mistake I did. Hans is just the supplier I used and I was upset with him for not warning me or giving a refund since I asked for fish without peppering before he shipped them.

The jury is still out on whether the bare bottom, frequent water changes and light background will make a difference. They are all getting active again, but the silver pigeon still looks very peppered. I'll try to add more pics as they come out to eat.

By the way. As for ordering from different suppliers. Very few suppliers stock the variety of strains that many hobbyists want. Mac's and Rainforest claim to have both yellow/gold and fire red, but I did not order from them because of comments on this and other sites. If Hans stocked a larger variety- including golden albino, I would have ordered all from him.

[Kal-El]

With young PB juvie... they will always pepper early on but will be less pepper or even disappear when they mature to adults. You'll need to be patient and focus on good diet and mainly daily WC to help give these guys a chance to grow out as nice big adults. If you don't want the hassle of growing out Juvie PB I would recommend just pay the extra money for the adults and you'll be much happier with the quality and size. Not everyone are able to grow out nice looking discus or keep up with the feeding and WC regime that is require to grow out juvie.

[rdiscus]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=80300&d=1380040003

When this guy doesn't show any stress bar then your Pigeon should be fine ... so the problem is not the fish, but you ...

[troysdiiscus]

Melafix????? Did I miss something??? Are your fishing suffering from somehting I havent read?????
80298802998030080301

Alright Friends,

I have removed the gravel and background doing a 50% wc and dosing melafix and stresscoat to counter bad bacteria. I have attempted to post some pictures, but limited. Fish are just now adjusting to the change.

In fairness to Hans, I should have titled my post "Beware of buying light colored pigeon strains if you have a dark substrate and are not prepared to do 50% water changes daily. They will not look the same in your tank as they do in the pictures."

My post was intended to warn new discus hobbyists not to make the same mistake I did. Hans is just the supplier I used and I was upset with him for not warning me or giving a refund since I asked for fish without peppering before he shipped them.

The jury is still out on whether the bare bottom, frequent water changes and light background will make a difference. They are all getting active again, but the silver pigeon still looks very peppered. I'll try to add more pics as they come out to eat.

By the way. As for ordering from different suppliers. Very few suppliers stock the variety of strains that many hobbyists want. Mac's and Rainforest claim to have both yellow/gold and fire red, but I did not order from them because of comments on this and other sites. If Hans stocked a larger variety- including golden albino, I would have ordered all from him.

[Madaboutdiscus]

None of those fish look healthy. Id be more worried about your blue diamond than the peppering it looks dark and stressed. Hopefully your new found knowledge will help you and your fish.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

[Tony C]

In fairness to Hans, I should have titled my post "Beware of buying light colored pigeon strains if you have a dark substrate and are not prepared to do 50% water changes daily. They will not look the same in your tank as they do in the pictures."

As has been pointed out already, this is not an issue unique to pigeons. Growing out ANY young discus to its full potential requires copious feeding and daily water changes, and a bare tank is the most efficient way to keep water quality up. A hobbyist who does not have the time or desire to deal with the challenges of raising young and just wants a nice display tank would be better served by buying adult fish.

[troysdiiscus]

David I would not compound there stress by adding melafix. The main objective here is lets get your water levels correct first and get you on a good schedule with foods and WC, clean good water will fix alot of your issues. No meds right now, certainly not that...

[terps]

Hans silver pigeon blood discus will not look the same in a tank with dark substrate as it looks on his website. His pictures show beautiful fish without any peppering or freckling.

When I ordered I told Hans I did not want fish with freckling. He said Pigeons could have some freckling, but he would pic some good fish for me.

The longer I have this fish, the worse the freckling becomes. I hope you can click and see the picture. This fish is worse than the culls sold to LFS. I thought Hans was the premier breeder/dealer. I asked for a refund because I requested fish without freckling, but Hans refused. I will not order from Hans again.

That's a sad looking PB David. Pet shop "quality stuff". You could put that fish in the whitest tank and do all the water changes you want and even say some prayers and it's still going to be heavily peppered.

[Ryan]

David,

As I suspected, a couple of your other discus show bars.

Traditionally, discus have 9 or more vertical black bars, often called "stress bars." These bars, as the name implies, do show when the fish are stressed. However, they can show for a variety of other reasons, like fighting or mating. A lot of juvenile discus will show the bars more often than not. As they grow, they tend to show them less, and sometimes not at all unless the fish are given a reason.

Pigeon blood discus do not have the same solid stress bars that non-pigeons do. Instead, they have pepper. However, both stress bars and pepper are brought out by the same factors, whether behavioral or environmental. So it doesn't surprise me to see your non-pigeons displaying their bars alongside pigeons that display pepper. I can also see a light dusting of pepper on the fins of your other pigeon discus.

Although you've removed your gravel, your background and tank bottom are still dark. Unless you cover them with some lighter material (most use paint), you won't see a drastic improvement in their color/barring/pepper. Also, as mentioned, water quality has a lot to do with it, too.

I have some white butterflies right now that are very clean, but even then they will show a few spots of peppering on their snouts and foreheads when stressed. They also show the dusting on the fins. Most times they will grow out of it.

Get yourself some light paint or background material and then give them a week or two to adjust.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j49/ryansmith83/de66801c.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j49/ryansmith83/IMG_4170.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j49/ryansmith83/bdc417d9.jpg

[Ryan]

I should also mention that your snow white and albino yellow do not show stress bars because they both lack black pigmentation on the body.

[David Bishop]

Thanks Madabout for taking the time to reply. I will try your suggestions

[David Bishop]

Thanks Ryan,

Sounds like a weekend painting project is in the works.

[David Bishop]

This is a Teffe bred to show the bars like a wild discus. I expect them on this fish.

[David Bishop]

A couple of posters said they thought it looked like ich on the silver pigeon. I see what looks like air bubbles on all the fish. If it is ich what is the best way to treat it?

[Larry Bugg]

This is a Teffe bred to show the bars like a wild discus. I expect them on this fish.

You have a lot to learn grasshopper. Wild discus do not show their stress bars all the time..................only when they are stressed and the Stendker Tefe was not bred to show the stress bars all the time. If the stress bars are showing then there is a problem.

[Skip]

where n when you get the yellow fish?

[strawberryblonde]

The Stendker Tefe's do have the stress bars, but if they are feeling comfortable in their tank (water quality is good, no fighting, medium lighting and plenty of food to eat) they won't show the bars.

I wasn't going to add pics to your thread, but maybe some pics of my brand new Hans discus will help you see what we're talking about. So here goes:

First day in the tank (last Thursday). The Stendker Tefe is bottom left and is showing a lot of barring because he's stressed in his new tank. Above him is a Brilliant Turq who is also looking very stressed out. Above him is my Cobalt - also new and showing a lot of black barring. On the right side, the least barred one is my Red Scrib. I've had him for 7 weeks now, so he's used to my tank and my face and hands. In the left corner and hard to see is my snakeskin pigeon. No barring on that guy because he's a pigeon blood, but his face was covered in pepper that day.
80305

These pics were taken the next evening. You can still see a wee bit of barring, but for the most part it's already gone and they only show bars when I put my hands in the tank.
80306

This pic shows both the Tefe (on the left) and the snakeskin pigeon (on the right). No barring on the Tefe and no pepper on the snakeskin after only 24 hours in the tank.
80307

Just follow the plan I outlined in order to get your water quality up, your background and substrate the right color, proper medium level lighting on the tank and feed them 5-6 times a day and yours will start to slowly lose all the dark bars and the peppering too.

[Chicago Discus]

Silver Pigeons are a great strain these are some babies that spawned from Stendker Parents that I purchased from Hans a while ago the quality is amazing and the man just knows his $hit LOL......Josie



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poCuFXDE7wI

[David Bishop]

Wow. Ok.

[David Bishop]

Looking good Josie. Are those all silver or some blue? I'm becoming convinced.

[David Bishop]

I got the yellow albino from a supplier in CA. I think it is sunrise tropical, but not sure that's right.

I've seen a number of suppliers that have either yellow or ruby red, but not both. I would like to have bought all my fish from one reputable supplier.

[SMB2]

Dave, I know people are giving a lot of advice here but when you get the chance can you measure your Tap water parameters and then your "grow" tank parameters (both taken at the same time) and post them.

[Kal-El]

This is a Teffe bred to show the bars like a wild discus. I expect them on this fish.

This statement here pretty much sums up how much you still have yet to learn. Keep doing your research I all I can say.

[David Bishop]

Stan, here are the current params

Tap Tank

PH 7 7
KH 150 120
Chl 0 0
GH 250 250
Nite 0 0
Nate 0 5-10
Amm 0

[musicmarn1]

David, good job on listening to people here. its not easy to take so much criticism unless you really and truly are here to learn. so for that i commend you.

the bare tank looks GOOD but its obvious from the fish condition (im new too, and its obvious to me) that those fish, mostly all of them were stressed and not in the right color and that my friend is all YOU so take full responsibility. next time i would ASK whats wrong before saying its the fish you got ;)

also, getting fish for color from different sources is understandable but asking for trouble. its SO so so much better to get the strains from the same source, and learn about those then later decide if you want a new strain, rather than mixing different sources, thats really a bad idea, after shipping to your home they are a lot weaker and more susceptible to illness

All the stress and problems people here are seeing, was from previous tank conditions, not the quality of the fish you ordered. so now would be a good time to say sorry Hans, because you also mixed in strains together in the same tank from different sources? unless you did QT and if so i appologize, but if you did not thats a seriously stressful thing to do to the fish.

i didn't understand that at first either if the fish had been quarantined by the supplier, i thought oh they are already QT why do they need to be separated (and lonley if you only bought a couple, again why its much much better to buy a larger group to keep them in QT together, id MUCH rather get the same strain now in a larger group than one fish here or two fish there etc)

but after shipping they need good conditions to recover nicely, as Toni shows an excellent demonstration of first day arrival and a few days in her supreme care later :)

you did say you were treating, for bad bacteria, and increasing water changes i think you said right? but what made you think there was a bacterial issue? not saying there isnt, but just wondering where you got that from, when you mix discus there are lots of issues that come up but to just start treating them is super stressful for them and its good to post clear pictures of individual fish here to get a good diagnosis first.

I bought a pair of white pigeons in my first order with Kenny's discus, and one has peppering now one does not. but they are BOTH eating and vital and i think one was more susceptible to stress than the other, but both were stunning quality fish, its MY tank and my conditions that put any extra stress or illness on my fish and i am fully responsible for fixing it. are your fish shy David? mine now (i have vastly improved my WC, cleaning regime and feeding variety not feeding frozen bloodworms at all anymore) beg at the front of the tank, follow me around and dont even get really shy unless some crazy dog im babysitting comes barging past the tank at speed. i struggled when there was smaller groups divided up, i found one large group so much better. i now have two groups of 11 or more discus and i have no bullying or shyness really. the new fish are only a few days here but they do startle a little bit just not very much.

take pictures of when you first get a fish in and each day or week since so you can journal your own progress. see what YOU are doing to the fish.

and lastly everyone here is DYING to see your water perameters, to help you. but that should in itself tell you just HOW important everyone thinks it is to know these values, the fact you have not posted them might just suggest you havent had time to get them? trust me, make at least two three times a week to get them, i TOTALLY did not understand that at first either, i thought fish look good, i do so many water changes, every time someone posts their values its always normal. whats the big deal.....i was wrong. its a big deal.

and lastly

Toni gave you SUPERB advice, a nicely broken down plan, she raises amazing discus AND she knows Hans fish inside out and upside down, thank her, befriend her, follow it closely, make it your bible by your bedside and ask any questions about getting them in better condition for the future. everyone here has been very helpful, your in a great place for support and advice.

[SMB2]

Tap Tank

PH 7 7
KH 150 120
Chl 0 0
GH 250 250
Nite 0 0
Nate 0 5-10
Amm 0

Thanks, but is your tap water and tank water identical? Would like to see a sample of each taken and measured perhaps just before a water change. This is leading to the aged water debate, because if there is a significant difference, each water change will stress the fish.
As above, glad to see you are taking your SD lumps and trying to correct things. Losing some fish now will save a lot fish later.

[David Bishop]

Thank you musicmarn. I just posted the params, probably as you were writing.

I'm all in on Discus now and many of you have made a convincing argument. I want to continue to be a part of this forum, so,

"I apologize Hans for blaming you for my lack of knowledge and experience. I knew some pigeons had a peppering problem, but I had no idea what is involved in keeping show quality pigeons. Those silver and blue pigeons are truly amazing when raised properly. I may not have the time and skill to raise prize quality fish myself, but I'm gonna try.

Thanks everyone for your feedback on this thread. I'm sure other beginners can benefit from the information posted here.

[David Bishop]

Stan,

The params did not format like I intended, but there are actually 2 sets of numbers- the first is the tap params and the second is the tank params. The only difference is the tank seems slightly softer today- maybe because of the melafix. And the nitrate in the tank is at 5-10 where it is 0 out of the tap.

[Madaboutdiscus]

Thank you musicmarn. I just posted the params, probably as you were writing.

I'm all in on Discus now and many of you have made a convincing argument. I want to continue to be a part of this forum, so,

"I apologize Hans for blaming you for my lack of knowledge and experience. I knew some pigeons had a peppering problem, but I had no idea what is involved in keeping show quality pigeons. Those silver and blue pigeons are truly amazing when raised properly. I may not have the time and skill to raise prize quality fish myself, but I'm gonna try.

Thanks everyone for your feedback on this thread. I'm sure other beginners can benefit from the information posted here.

+1

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

[David Bishop]

Im going to find a white background and use a thin layer of white pool filter sand to knock the reflection off the bottom.

[David Bishop]

As for the aged water argument, do you use heaters in your aging water or the temp is not off?

[musicmarn1]

Grats and Welcome :D:balloon: and keep us posted, cant wait to see how you turn these babies around !!

i do heaters in the aging water, i get it to same temp as tank and use a pond pump to go from aging barrel into the tank, vacuum the bottom of tank and then pond pump to empty out rest of water to whatever level i put the pond pump to (im hanging around usually reading SD during water changes so i dont let pump run dry) then bob's your uncle, aging barrel refills tank back up and off we go again.


Thank you musicmarn. I just posted the params, probably as you were writing.

I'm all in on Discus now and many of you have made a convincing argument. I want to continue to be a part of this forum, so,

"I apologize Hans for blaming you for my lack of knowledge and experience. I knew some pigeons had a peppering problem, but I had no idea what is involved in keeping show quality pigeons. Those silver and blue pigeons are truly amazing when raised properly. I may not have the time and skill to raise prize quality fish myself, but I'm gonna try.

Thanks everyone for your feedback on this thread. I'm sure other beginners can benefit from the information posted here.

[Chicago Discus]

To answer your question no they are all silver P.
The only advice I can give you is be patient and everything will turn around for you. As far as sand goes I would avoid the sand at this point until you get the hang of things in the tank. Everyone's telling you to change water and that's great but you also need to flush your filters and wipe your tank down which is just as important. It's like taking a shower without soap you get clean but quickly get dirty again.
Aging your water is very important not just for PH swings but for the stability of your water. Make sure when your aging your water you get a good airstone so the water gets moving in the storage barrel and adds oxygen to the tank. And start slowly with the water changes don't just start doing huge water changes it will do more harm than good. Just start doing larger water changes until you reach the amount of water you would like to change. If you go from two smaller water changes a week to daily large water changes it will stress the fish out. Conditioning them to the larger water changes is a much better plan.......hope this helps.....Josie

[Allwin]

No words to describe this explanation,Golden words Josie.. LOL:balloon:!!!



It's like taking a shower without soap you get clean but quickly get dirty again.......hope this helps.....Josie

[Chicago Discus]

No words to describe this explanation,Golden words Josie.. LOL:balloon:!!!

LOL...I didn't know how else to put it...Josie

[ALEXIS]

Get some Albinos and place them in the tank. They will not pepper. : )

[David Bishop]

Many have recommended pool filter sand as discus substrate. Does anyone know if Quickrete brand from Lowes is safe?

[SMB2]

David, as per Josie. Skip the sand for now. Work on a WC routine that allows you to do it quickly and safely.
I use 30 gal plastic garbage cans and age the water with a heater and a large pond pump to agitate the water and also assist in the emptying and filling.
With BB you can easily vacuum the junk on the bottom of the tank.
Get this part down, so that you are enjoying watching the fish grow, then worry about substrate etc.

[Kal-El]

David, as per Josie. Skip the sand for now. Work on a WC routine that allows you to do it quickly and safely.
I use 30 gal plastic garbage cans and age the water with a heater and a large pond pump to agitate the water and also assist in the emptying and filling.
With BB you can easily vacuum the junk on the bottom of the tank.
Get this part down, so that you are enjoying watching the fish grow, then worry about substrate etc.
Stan is right... don't worry about the substrate or how your tanks look. Your only priority right now is to get water up to the best quality you can. Feed them good high quality food and offend. Only enough for them to consume within 2-3 minutes. Remember their stomach is the size of a pea so don't over feed. Once feeding is done siphon out the waste and left over food. If you can keep this up with the daily WC these guys has a chance of growing very nice for you. It's not easy growing out juvie and that's why not everyone can grow-out juvies to adults. Good luck and keep everyone posted on your process.

[Kal-El]

Just to give you an idea and motivation on what you can do if you dedicate yourself to it. I grow-out these Chicago Blue I got from Josie in between September and October at 2.5". Following everyone's best practice of daily WC and healthy diet.

Before at 2.5"
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c145/imageher/2533F3EA-A2A5-45A3-AB01-719D883BAAE7-12542-000006BDD130052C_zps780b2bea.jpg

Today at 13 months @ 6.75" almost 7"
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c145/imageher/C81320EE-65E5-4105-96B1-CC371518CB30-2318-00000272028AA760_zps3c5b5c2f.jpg

[William Palumbo]

Good job Kal...Beautiful fish!...Bill

[Kal-El]

Good job Kal...Beautiful fish!...Bill

I wish i had a good camera to really capture how beautiful this fish is... Anyway I wish OP all but the best...

[Discusdude7]

Just to give you an idea and motivation on what you can do if you dedicate yourself to it. I grow-out these Chicago Blue I got from Josie in between September and October at 2.5". Following everyone's best practice of daily WC and healthy diet.

Before at 2.5"
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c145/imageher/2533F3EA-A2A5-45A3-AB01-719D883BAAE7-12542-000006BDD130052C_zps780b2bea.jpg

Today at 13 months @ 6.75" almost 7"
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c145/imageher/C81320EE-65E5-4105-96B1-CC371518CB30-2318-00000272028AA760_zps3c5b5c2f.jpg

Wow. That's one good looking fish!

[David Bishop]

If you look on Hans' website, his pictures of the Teffe are showing the bars in all but one. In that fish it looks like a desirable quality.

[David Bishop]

Good advice, especially for beginners and those who are not able to do daily water changes.

[David Bishop]

Thanks Stan.

I picked up a bag of sand today, but will hold off on adding it for awhile. I found an interesting way to make a white background today after looking through local fish stores, and walmart. Lowes has 48" fluorescent light covers in white that are a perfect fit for a 55 g or 75 g long. Just tape it on and its done. I'll post a pic of the tank with the background.

[David Bishop]

Thanks Superman. Those are some beautiful pics.

How long would you keep a naked bare bottom tank before adding some decorations for a display tank? And I guess the number of fish in a 55 g display all depends on # and size of wc?

[Rudustin]

I have six silver pigeons from Hans and they are coloring up brilliantly! They are getting so silvery white. I have a BB sixty five gallon. How old is your fish and does it have any other companions? I have had them for almost two months now and they are growing rapidly and very healthy and very good eaters. I do water changes almost every day. I got them when they were 2.5 inches each. They are well over 3' now and I feed them four to five times a day. Hans is great and has continued to produce great fish and his customer service has been wonderful for me. I even got some Fire Reds from him about two weeks ago and they are even more beautiful than they are pictured on his site. I'm new but have read up on these fish before I got them. I also have some White Butterflies from Chicago Discus and they are not showing any peppering at all but they are now about 4 inches. I think the people that have suggested that you substrate is too dark are wise to tell you to get rid of it.

[David Bishop]

Im going to try to add a picture here of the tank with the white 48" light cover background.

[Kal-El]

Thanks Superman. Those are some beautiful pics.

How long would you keep a naked bare bottom tank before adding some decorations for a display tank? And I guess the number of fish in a 55 g display all depends on # and size of wc?

Personally I like BB, but if I were to add subtracts I would grow my juvie to about 5.5-6" young adults in a BB tank before moving them over to a show tank. Not all juvie will grow to 5.5-6" so the size depends on how much growing your fish has left and if it's stunt or not. This all comes down to feeding and WC regime in a BB tank.

[David Bishop]

Glad your silver pigeons are coloring well. I started with one snow white discus and a school of rainbows. They got along well together and didn't require a lot of attention. About 3-4 weeks ago I removed the rainbows and added four more discus: one silver pigeon about 3", one blue pigeon at 2.5", one teffee at 2.5", and one red ruby at 3". I don't have a quaranteen tank, so I wanted to add a group of fish all at once and bring them up together. The snow white was about 4" when I added the others and became a bully right away. Everyone was able to eat and they eventually settled down. Just normal pecking order. I really wanted some other colors that were not offered by Hans, so one week later I received a gold albino, a red leopard, and a blue diamond all at 2.5". The bullying stopped when the new fish were added, but I've had some issues.

First, the red leopard had what looked like a knot at the base of its tail. I thought it was a tumor, TB or something. The breeder assured me it was just a bone issue that would straighten out after a couple of months of good eating. Fearing bacterial issues and fins looking a little ragged, I dosed the tank with melafix one day, which seemed like a safe antibacterial treatment.

The Red Ruby didn't like the melafix and stopped eating and stayed in a corner the rest of the day. Next day I did a 50% wc and ran carbon for two days to remove the melafix.

Then the Teffe turned dark and stopped eating and hiding. He came around after a few more water changes and eats like a pig now.

The blue diamond has been a little dark since I got him. He eats good and keeps fins erect. I hope current changes will help him lighten up- more food and cleaner water.

The red leopard did an overnight turnaround with the melafix. He eats like a pig and rushes the glass. I think the knot in his tail is scoliosis, but I hope with good food and water it'll straighten out.

The blue pigeon has always eaten good and been active. He shows some peppering, but not like the silver pigeon

All in all, I guess there has been constant stress in the tank for the past three weeks with adding fish, medication, removing decorations, etc. I'm sure if I feed them three or four times a day with worms, brine shrimp, beef heart, and some Omega veggie pellets and keep the water clean they will thrive.

The silver pigeon is not showing any signs of clearing up with the barebottom tank, but I'm sure its stills stressed.

They all charge the glass at feeding time, except the red ruby. This is the one fish I wanted more than all the others. It still has a lot of yellow that I hope will redden up. I plan to remove the two artificial logs with tomorrow's water change so the Ruby will be more likely to eat and not hide. Guess I'll keep it bare for about six months and see how things go.

Thanks,

Dave

[strawberryblonde]

If you look on Hans' website, his pictures of the Teffe are showing the bars in all but one. In that fish it looks like a desirable quality.

His are showing their bars in the pictures, but I'm pretty sure they don't show them in his tanks. Mine only displays the thicker bar on his face occasionally and after 6 days in the tank isn't showing body bars at all. That's what you're aiming for. You can expect the bars to show up as they are adjusting to water changes, your hands in the tank, sudden light or movements, one discus picking on the others, feeding frenzy time, etc. But when they are relaxed and just swimming peacefully you shouldn't see the bars on him.


Thanks Superman. Those are some beautiful pics.

How long would you keep a naked bare bottom tank before adding some decorations for a display tank? And I guess the number of fish in a 55 g display all depends on # and size of wc?

So long as the bottom is painted white and they have adjusted well to the daily water change, feel free to add a couple pieces of small driftwood in another month to decorate the tank a bit. I've always had decor in my BB tanks for all discus who are 4" and larger. Yours should reach that size in another month with proper care. Just be sure to move the driftwood around during vacuuming the tank, and take it out once a week to scrub it in the sink. You can also add a thin layer of sand after they are about 4.5". By then they'll be settled in and won't mind the extra time you spend in the tank siphoning the crud out of it. =)


Im going to try to add a picture here of the tank with the white 48" light cover background.

The tank looks MUCH better in that pic! Are the discus looking a bit better tonight?

Oh and how are they eating? How often do you feed them?

[Discus-Hans]

Thanks everybody for chiming in.

Trying to help somebody is in my nature and I try to solve problems and answer questions as fast as possible.

But if I get emails like:

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Bishop" <davidbishopsbc@yahoo.com>
To: <discus-hans@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 1:46 PM
Subject: Refund


Hans

I am going to euthanize this fish so it doesn't reproduce. You assured me that any freckling on your fish would be minor. I expect a refund of $50 for this fish. If you refuse I will post this picture online and warn people what your fish look like. I will also ask my credit card co to take back the funds.

David Bishop

While I told him:

From: Discus Hans
Sent: ‎Sunday‎, ‎September‎ ‎1‎, ‎2013 ‎6‎:‎09‎ ‎PM
To: DAVID BISHOP

Hi David


All pigeon type Discus can show some speckles or freckles, special in a tank with dark bottom and black back ground. It's just adjusting of them to their surrounding.
Stendker Discus are know to be very clean.


The Tefe's are not pigeon so will never show those speckles or freckles.


Tefe are something Stendker worked on for more as 20 years to create a Discus that looks close to a wild Tefe.
They are bred from selected Stendker Discus not wilds


Hope this helps


Hans
Discus Hans USA

Sent from my iPhone


I don't fall for blackmail and if you want to make a fool of yourself, go ahead, but don't ask me for help anymore.


Funny thing is that I made a movie from the tank with brothers and sisters where David's Silver Pigeon came from. Because he special requested no "freckels" I picked the best from this tank for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_XcUsGWmoo

And this is all the time I want to spend on it, I got better things to do.

And Terps, I know deep in your hart you love me lol lol

[David Bishop]

Toni,

Thanks for your thoughtful replies. Most are eating aggressively. I had been feeding twice a day but will bump it up to three or four.

One fish is not eating as aggressively as the rest. It is a red ruby. She goes back and forth along the back of the tank a lot. She comes out at feeding time and takes a bite, then goes off alone while the rest eat. I think the first dose of melafix and adding three new fish stressed her out a couple of weeks ago. She's not being bullied. I don't know why she doesn't eat better. This is the fish I hope to be my prize fish. Any ideas? Probably stressed like the others from multiple changes in a short time. I think if I remove all the docor, feed more often and keep the water clean she'll come around.

Im also wondering if they are dealing with ick now. What I thought was little air bubbles on some of the fish may be ick spots. Picked up some quick cure, but not sure if I should just watch them for a few days and get the melafix out of the tank before doing anything.

[LizStreithorst]

Good Lord, the guy was rude from the get-go. I had no idea that he made a threat to you! Good for him and good for you. He was lucky. The mods cut him more slack that I would have had I been in their position. Perhaps the man in question will have learned manners. And good for you because you never had anything to worry about. The goof thought that he could come here and hurt your reputation. Gimme a break...


Thanks everybody for chiming in.

Trying to help somebody is in my nature and I try to solve problems and answer questions as fast as possible.

But if I get emails like:

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Bishop" <davidbishopsbc@yahoo.com>
To: <discus-hans@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 1:46 PM
Subject: Refund


Hans

I am going to euthanize this fish so it doesn't reproduce. You assured me that any freckling on your fish would be minor. I expect a refund of $50 for this fish. If you refuse I will post this picture online and warn people what your fish look like. I will also ask my credit card co to take back the funds.

David Bishop

While I told him:

From: Discus Hans
Sent: ‎Sunday‎, ‎September‎ ‎1‎, ‎2013 ‎6‎:‎09‎ ‎PM
To: DAVID BISHOP

Hi David


All pigeon type Discus can show some speckles or freckles, special in a tank with dark bottom and black back ground. It's just adjusting of them to their surrounding.
Stendker Discus are know to be very clean.


The Tefe's are not pigeon so will never show those speckles or freckles.


Tefe are something Stendker worked on for more as 20 years to create a Discus that looks close to a wild Tefe.
They are bred from selected Stendker Discus not wilds


Hope this helps


Hans
Discus Hans USA

Sent from my iPhone


I don't fall for blackmail and if you want to make a fool of yourself, go ahead, but don't ask me for help anymore.


Funny thing is that I made a movie from the tank with brothers and sisters where David's Silver Pigeon came from. Because he special requested no "freckels" I picked the best from this tank for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_XcUsGWmoo

And this is all the time I want to spend on it, I got better things to do.

And Terps, I know deep in your hart you love me lol lol

[Skip]

Thanks Hans

[troysdiiscus]

Ok I asked in an earlier thread before it got hacked up for Hans to come on and defend himself......thank goodness he did!!! Now like I said you "Now you know the REST of the story, GOOD DAY"!!!! Its in the past but for the love of Pete, you have got to be kidding me with this!!!! I am not sure how old this OP is but my 15 year old has more manners than this, I hope he learns a LESSON on respect. I dont mean to be harsh but I dont deal well with this type of......anyway Hans I respect you for coming on here and defending yourself, I certainly would have!!! You went above and beyond to help. You are the bomb!!:thumbsup:

[Kal-El]

Thanks everybody for chiming in.

Trying to help somebody is in my nature and I try to solve problems and answer questions as fast as possible.

But if I get emails like:

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Bishop" <davidbishopsbc@yahoo.com>
To: <discus-hans@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 1:46 PM
Subject: Refund


Hans

I am going to euthanize this fish so it doesn't reproduce. You assured me that any freckling on your fish would be minor. I expect a refund of $50 for this fish. If you refuse I will post this picture online and warn people what your fish look like. I will also ask my credit card co to take back the funds.

David Bishop

While I told him:

From: Discus Hans
Sent: ‎Sunday‎, ‎September‎ ‎1‎, ‎2013 ‎6‎:‎09‎ ‎PM
To: DAVID BISHOP

Hi David


All pigeon type Discus can show some speckles or freckles, special in a tank with dark bottom and black back ground. It's just adjusting of them to their surrounding.
Stendker Discus are know to be very clean.


The Tefe's are not pigeon so will never show those speckles or freckles.


Tefe are something Stendker worked on for more as 20 years to create a Discus that looks close to a wild Tefe.
They are bred from selected Stendker Discus not wilds


Hope this helps


Hans
Discus Hans USA

Sent from my iPhone


I don't fall for blackmail and if you want to make a fool of yourself, go ahead, but don't ask me for help anymore.


Funny thing is that I made a movie from the tank with brothers and sisters where David's Silver Pigeon came from. Because he special requested no "freckels" I picked the best from this tank for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_XcUsGWmoo

And this is all the time I want to spend on it, I got better things to do.

And Terps, I know deep in your hart you love me lol lol

http://img.pandawhale.com/32469-dayum-gif-jsyZ.jpeg

[LizStreithorst]

lol. Rick gets $50. Thanks to everyone who posted:D

[troysdiiscus]

:thumbsup:
lol. Rick gets $50. Thanks to everyone who posted:D

[yim11]

Ok I asked in an earlier thread before it got hacked up for Hans to come on and defend himself......thank goodness he did!!! Now like I said you "Now you know the REST of the story, GOOD DAY"!!!! Its in the past but for the love of Pete, you have got to be kidding me with this!!!! I am not sure how old this OP is but my 15 year old has more manners than this, I hope he learns a LESSON on respect. I dont mean to be harsh but I dont deal well with this type of......anyway Hans I respect you for coming on here and defending yourself, I certainly would have!!! You went above and beyond to help. You are the bomb!!:thumbsup:

Now that we've hit the 10 page over (pays to Rick) and the 7 page apology (pays to me) I'll post lol

I know I am not alone in feeling this was a moderation fail. The original purpose of the OPs post is completely lost. I understand the mods effort in trying to spin this into a learning/informative thread, and that's great - if you start a new thread. But the OP came on here with the sole purpose of leaving a poor review, and that is now lost.

[Skip]

http://img.pandawhale.com/32469-dayum-gif-jsyZ.jpeg

Luv it..

[Kal-El]

This thread can probably be close to prevent any more backlash. The OP was wrong for posting this thread because of his own lack of knowledge & mistake. To make it worst his email posed by Hans doesn't help him either. Since OP as already apologize to Hans there's no need to keep this thread open and bring in more negativity.

[nc0gnet0]

I know I am not alone in feeling this was a moderation fail. The original purpose of the OPs post is completely lost. I understand the mods effort in trying to spin this into a learning/informative thread, and that's great - if you start a new thread. But the OP came on here with the sole purpose of leaving a poor review, and that is now lost.

+1

For all the good intent the mods might have had, the overall integrety of the review section took an enormous hit today. It will now appear that if your a simply sponsor, your bad review will get editted. Like JIm said, if you wish to expound on the thread then create a new one.

That being said I do believe the OP was wrong, and would buy fish from Hans in a heartbeat.

[LizStreithorst]

I agree with Jim. But this is not my forum. Y'all mods have every right to do what you think is right for simple.

[Keith Perkins]

I know I am not alone in feeling this was a moderation fail. The original purpose of the OPs post is completely lost. I understand the mods effort in trying to spin this into a learning/informative thread, and that's great - if you start a new thread. But the OP came on here with the sole purpose of leaving a poor review, and that is now lost.


+1

For all the good intent the mods might have had, the overall integrety of the review section took an enormous hit today. It will now appear that if your a simply sponsor, your bad review will get editted. Like JIm said, if you wish to expound on the thread then create a new one.

That being said I do believe the OP was wrong, and would buy fish from Hans in a heartbeat.

The OP learned that what they were complaining about with the sponsor wasn't the sponsors fault. The mod offered to re-title the thread and move it if the OP wanted. Not sure how that equates to simply sponsors bad reviews being edited or affects the integrity or the review section. Seems like the facts are being twisted.

[Discus-Hans]

I have to come a little in the defense of the mods here, it's not a paid job, it's a hobby and wrong or right, they deal with things the way they think it's right.

As side note, I would never ever want to be in their shoes, I would ban everybody lol lol

Hans

[MSD]

OK, just follow Josie and Tara, they will steer you right! Please don't misunderstand my last post, that was at kale chirping in the background.

[TNT77]

Kale, you sound like a little girl and this is the Mods, business. You always butt in and Dave is new and didn't know who Hans is and its not for you to be the mouse that roared. Hans is a big boy and knows what he is doing and one newbie cannot touch his reputation. You may be more annoying than his kidney stones...LOL. Between Hans, Josie and Tara the story was made totally clear.
Also, who would dare argue with Liz????
:confused: I've never done anything to try and harm Han's reputation.

[MSD]

Tara, I was saying you and Josie explained everything perfectly!! You read me wrong.

[Discus-Hans]

:confused: I've never done anything to try and harm Han's reputation.

I can't remember either and I think it wouldn't make any sense in this whole thread to dig up old bones any way

Hans

[MSD]

Re-read it Tara, you are the good guy!!!

[MSD]

And of course Hans and Josie are too. Wow, did I get misunderstood. No more posting for me tonight!! Sorry for the confusion.

[Chicago Discus]

ya all are so crazy LMAO......:)....Josie

[TNT77]

And of course Hans and Josie are too. Wow, did. I get misunderstood. No pore posting for me tonight!! Sorry for the confusion.
Lol its ok just had me worried I did something I wasn't aware of which does happen at times.

[LizStreithorst]

Same here, Hans, It must be a thankless task. Damned it you do, damned if you don't. I wouldn't do it for money.


I have to come a little in the defense of the mods here, it's not a paid job, it's a hobby and wrong or right, they deal with things the way they think it's right.

As side note, I would never ever want to be in their shoes, I would ban everybody lol lol

Hans

[MSD]

Nope you and Josie and SMB2 were the ones making sense and providing solutions. I wrote to much today for class reports, should of just chilled out.......

[Second Hand Pat]

Guys, the thread was not edited except for the title and it got due process (Thanks Hans). Facts are there was no wrong doing on part of the sponsor and hopefully the OP learned a few lessons not only with his fish but in respect and honesty in dealing with people you do business with.

[Ryan]

I know I am not alone in feeling this was a moderation fail. The original purpose of the OPs post is completely lost. I understand the mods effort in trying to spin this into a learning/informative thread, and that's great - if you start a new thread. But the OP came on here with the sole purpose of leaving a poor review, and that is now lost.


For all the good intent the mods might have had, the overall integrety of the review section took an enormous hit today. It will now appear that if your a simply sponsor, your bad review will get editted. Like JIm said, if you wish to expound on the thread then create a new one.

Please read my post #72 where I specifically state: I've pruned this thread and moved it out of the Livestock Review forum. Since this thread has turned into more of a general knowledge thread about pigeon-based discus, I am moving it into the General forum... Also, if you are still unhappy with your fish, you're more than welcome to create another thread in the Livestock Review forum. That thread will be open to first-hand experiences only and any bashing, snark, or otherwise will be edited out as that section of the board is designed for reviews only.

If David still feels that Hans is at fault somehow and he was unhappy with the transaction, he is free to say so. There were two issues with this thread. One, it turned into a free-for-all full of memes, snark, and accusations, which goes against the rules of the Livestock Review board and had to be edited out anyway. Two, people started giving advice on how to reduce the peppering, and it turned into more of an informational thread than a livestock review. I made the decision to prune it and move it. Again, David is free to go back and leave a negative thread for Hans if he wants, so long as that thread is specifically about the transaction and it stays on topic. And again, even if he posts a thread like that, any piling on will be edited. People are welcome to share first-hand experiences, good or bad, but they are not welcome to bash other members for their opinions or belittle them.

It's amazing to me how people love to pile on. I'm going to lock this thread but leave it unedited so that people can go back and see exactly what I'm talking about. Half the posts over the last two pages are completely uncalled for. Everyone loves drama. I feel like a broken record, asking adults to be respectful and play nice. It seems like such a simple request, and yet so many here are incapable of it.

Hans had his say and now we've heard both sides of the story. If David needs additional help, he can feel free to start a new thread asking for it. If he'd like to open a new review thread about Hans, he may, and Hans can reply again with the emails he posted in this thread.