Flat grey circles on side of Discus

[Wanny]

Tank 90 Gallons
4 Sub Adult Discus (got 4 others in quarantine but they will eventually join them)
7.4 PH
4KH
6GH
84 Temp.
Water changes about 40 percent every other day. Tap water, use prime for water conditioner. Age water over night before putting it in, has same ph, kh, gh and temp.
All fish acting normally, eating normally, however if I look at them from the side some of them seem to have almost hard to see flat circles on them, round, greyish, size just smaller then a pencil eraser, or even smaller and they come and go. No flashing, no itching, no breathing problems. While these fish were in quarantine, the two biggest were fighting, and I had noticed that the one losing the fight had marks on its skin, so I thought, are these battle wounds? So I put a divider in the tank to separate them, and in a few days those marks disappeared and they did not come back. So now all fish are in their permanent home, these two biggest ones do their fighting, one of them has paired with another, and basically keeps the other bigger fish away from the egg corner. So are these fight wounds, and just the fishes slime coat protecting the areas. The fishes mouths are round, so maybe when they peck at each other they make these circle wounds? The areas are not raised, not red, they are almost impossible to see unless I look really hard and see the fish from the side. Any idea, has anyone else seen this. Thanks so much for your input.

[Skip]

Do u have a pleco in there?

[lipadj46]

Do u have a pleco in there?

+1

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Plecos will suck on anything, including discus.

[Wanny]

Here is your questionaire
Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
Explained already, noticed the problem on and off since originally gotten fish, around July 2013, while in quarantine and now in new tank.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
Just the flat greyish small circles on sides of fish

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
They had treatments prior to arriving from Kenny's Discus, I treated them with Prazi-pro while in quarantine, and not more treatments of any medications since in new tank which they have been in since August. Used seasoned prefilter to quick cycle new tank.



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
90 Gallons, four sub adults.

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
40 percent every other day.

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
Tank running since August, seasoned with pre-filter for fast cycle, sand substrate, about 1/2 inch deep, most of tank, corner of tank has plants with sand and ecocomplete substrate about 3 1/2 inch deep.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
Age water over night, no PH swing, never any ammonia, nitrites, or Nitrates

8. Parameters and water source;
Tap water
PH 7.4
KH 4
GH 6
Conductivity 550 US shown with a Fluval G3 filter
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0-5

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- municipal water ____

9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

Small amount of Plants added on start up of tank in August before fish were put in and were in tank three weeks prior to adding fish.

10. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them. Pictures already added in Kenny's Discus Area to show how beautiful fish are.

[Second Hand Pat]

As Skip suggests sounds like a pleco. When my wild males fight they left blackish marks on each other. The marks are not round.

[Wanny]

No other fish in tank. Just Discus

[Second Hand Pat]

Do you have any pictures showing the marks?

[Wanny]

Yes, I too have seen marks, like scratches, but these marks are round, just like a discus mouth. Very strange.

[Wanny]

Well that is the thing they are so hard to see I have to be looking at the fish sideways, but I will try to get a picture.

[Wanny]

I just cant get a good picture, I have to be looking at them straight on, light needs to be just right on the body, so I can see these marks. I thought maybe it was skin flukes aggravating them, but since no flashing or itching, that does not make sense. I guess I won't worry about it unless these marks stay, and become inflamed, or worsen. I thought maybe someone else had experienced this before. Thanks for your help.

[Second Hand Pat]

Look anything like this..

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Dead%20Discus/closeup3.jpg

[Wanny]

The circles just don't seem to show up on a photo. The fish looks perfect, and you just can't see the circles on a photograph, maybe I will try using my video on my camera tomorrow and see if that works. Tx again.

[Wanny]

Might look like your photo, if your talking about the circle to the left of picture?

[Second Hand Pat]

Wanny, these marks were caused by a pleco. Perhaps your video might be more revealing. Also you could remove the pleco to see if the damage to the discus heals.

[Wanny]

I don't have any plecos in the tank, just discus, there has never been any plecos in this tank. The difference between your circle mark and mine, are there is no lose of color on the circles on my fish. I really need to describe it better, it is as if there is a slight film over the fishes skin, and it is a perfect circle shape, and the film is not raised it is flush with the skin. I can see the color of the fish under the circle, as a matter of fact, I can only see these circles when the fish is in the darkest part of the tank. If the fish has light on it, I can't see the circles at all. They do not show up in photographs. The fish looks perfect in the photos I have taken. This is so strange, the only thing I can think of is it is excess slime coat because they are a breeding pair, but then why would it be a circle. So still baffled. Thanks for trying to help. Fish seem fine, act fine, eat fine, so I am just going to continue to keep an eye on things.

[Second Hand Pat]

Is it a perfect circle?

[PP_GBR]

I think I know what it is. I've seen those round patches on mine before.

[discuspaul]

I think I know what it is. I've seen those round patches on mine before.

If you think you know what it is, why don't you enlighten us ?

[Wanny]

Cant figure out video on camera need to wait for hubby. This picture makes the mark seem whiter then it is, it actually looks like a film over the fish. Best picture I could get, tried about twenty times, they are just so hard to see. http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/luannerfl/e7e6aa02-73d3-45a7-8b4b-afebefc8beba_zps0425252b.jpg (http://s1363.photobucket.com/user/luannerfl/media/e7e6aa02-73d3-45a7-8b4b-afebefc8beba_zps0425252b.jpg.html)

[Wanny]

Now here is the same fish, same side, same area, but taking a photo looking directly at from the side, and what do you see...NO SPOT!!
Again, film spot can only be seen when looking at the head straight on, in the dark side of tank, and then glancing down the side of fish. UGH
http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/luannerfl/0ae9073b-eecd-4834-b32d-7422d174a7d2_zpsee4a9184.jpg (http://s1363.photobucket.com/user/luannerfl/media/0ae9073b-eecd-4834-b32d-7422d174a7d2_zpsee4a9184.jpg.html)

[Second Hand Pat]

Wanny, do the spots go away after a large WC?
Pat

[Wanny]

The circles (some not perfectly round, but close) seem to take a few days to ago away, since I change water every other day, it is hard for me to say whether it is due to the water changes or not? If it was the water change wouldn't all the fish in the tank show irritation at the same time? My tap water is very high in ammonia and nitrites, so I make sure the new water is treated with prime. I air stone and pump the water in a bucket over night, and I check the PH, KH, ammonia, and Nitrites of water before I put it into the tank. I know my Nitrates from tap are zero and that my GH from tap is 6. I use a very small amount of Seachem Alkaline Buffer to bring my KH from 2 to 4 so my PH stays steady. I use a Seachem Ammonia Alert in tank and water change bucket, since you can't get an accurate Ammonia reading with normal test kits when using prime. I feel there is something that is irritating the slime coat, must be, but what is the question. I also notice it occasionally on my juvies in quarantine tank, they come and go, all fish are not affected at same time. All the discus started out in this quarantine tank, only the biggest ones were moved to their main tank. The quarantine tank was bought brand new for the discus, as well as the tank the bigger discus live in, all brand new. Thanks again for the brain storming!

[Wanny]

I do not add the prime and alkaline buffer to the tank, but to the water change bucket, which circulates over night before being added to the main tank.

[Wanny]

I have read that flukes can tend to make cloudy areas on fins and body of fish. I sometimes do see cloudy areas on the fins, not often, maybe three times in a two month period and not on same fish. The cloudy areas go away in a few days, just like the circle spots on the body. Sometimes there are enough circle spots close together that they blend and make a bigger foggy area on body. Besides the cloudy areas, there is no other irritation, and even the fins you have to look at them just right to see the cloudy areas. As these fish bump, fight, breed, they touch each other, and yes I have concluded with separation that this body contact does leave marks that go away in a few days, but its the fact that the foggy areas on the body are almost perfect circles.

[Wanny]

I also like to mention that I have two other fish tanks (all equipment kept separate of course). One tank has clown loaches which are some of the most sensitive fish out there. I use the same tap water and same procedures to change the water in these other tanks. I have never seen this on any of my other fish, my clown loaches have never had any of these spots. My other two tanks have been running for five years.

[kumarabhi2]

Pottasium Permanganate dip for few days should help,before it increases.

[Tazalanche]

Without knowing for certain what you are dealing with, PLEASE do not blindly medicate.

[Wanny]

No worries, I never blindly medicate. I research until my eyes fall out and if I can't figure it out, then I leave things be, keep an eye on the fish, and hope the fish is healthy and strong enough to fight off whatever it is. I do extra water changes as well. I once read, you can never really know what is wrong with a fish unless you do a scrapping and use a microscope, or do an autopsy. Since I don't have a microscope, and have never even considered an autopsy on a dead fish, I let nature take its course....survival of the fittest. The one spot in the picture above is already gone, there is a new spot in a different place, but fish seems fine. If it was something really bad I assume it would be worse already and or the fish would be dead. Thanks everyone for your help, I figured out the video feature on my camera and I am going to give it a try. Will post it later if it comes out ok.

[yim11]

Pottasium Permanganate dip for few days should help,before it increases.

I hope this is a joke. NEVER use PP for days, 4 hrs is standard treatment time.

[Wanny]

Honestly I would never use PP, it is a little too complicated for me I would be afraid to overdose or under dose.

[Allwin]

Yea, had tough days as-well. Unless u know the chemistry of your PP and the right hand to use.


Honestly I would never use PP, it is a little too complicated for me I would be afraid to overdose or under dose.

[PP_GBR]

Paul

I'll try my best to describe it. I've seen these round patches on 2 carnation turks out of a new group of 12. The patches were very hard to see, you'd only see them at the right angle and lighting. It looked like light gray film. Think of it when you get sun burn and ready to peel.

[PP_GBR]

Wanny

if you are thinking about using PP, I'd copy you a link.

[Wanny]

Yes that is exactly what it looks like and how you see it. I really don't know what to do. Is that what you used?
I have seen this on and off for two months, the fish have not gotten bad wounds, and otherwise act normally, so I am not sure I should do anything but more water changes, at least that is the safest first step. I guess I need to get a darn microscope and do a scrapping to figure out exactly what this is. I had hoped someone would be able to say what it was so I knew exactly how to treat it, and was not medicating blindly. Thanks so much you have definitely described it well.

[PP_GBR]

Wanny

No, I treated them with something else for over a week. I could not tell you here. They will jump on me out of the bushes. LOL. I've only seen it happened once over a year ago. I later consulted with my mentor and he gave an RX. I did not have to use it. It could be because I started PP the group after that.
I have BB tanks so treating with PP is not an issue.

You should contact Kenny for help.

[Wanny]

Ok thanks.

[Wanny]

No wait, you know what, all you have done is upset me. You are the only one who even knows what I am talking about and you are AFRAID people on the site will reprimand you? What will they do kick you off the forum? Really! Maybe you could just tell me what your mentor thought it was so that I might take proper action, if not, then I don't see why you even bothered to respond to my query. Animal lives may be at stake here, and your worried about a few people who just might read this thread getting mad at you? Give me a break.

[PP_GBR]

Wanny

Please check your PM.

[strawberryblonde]

I'd be willing to bet that PP_GBR treated his discus with salt and he's unwilling to say it here because he's gotten a lot of well deserved grief for constantly recommending salt as the end all and be all treatment for discus problems.

I'm sorry he got you so upset. =(

I haven't chimed in on this thread because I've been busy scouring the internet and wracking my brain for what type or types of organsisms or water quality issues could cause intermittent slime coat irritation. I'm sure that's what it is and that the greyish circles you see are when the discus are shedding or sloughing off slime coat in an irritated area.

Mine will occasionally slough off slime coat here and there. Sometimes it's because they didn't appreciate a water change (who knows, too warm, too cold, too little Prime...they don't tell me what it is that's bothering them). Other times it can just be something as simple as brushing up against a hunk of driftwood or a flake of food that settles on them. They try to swish it away and if that doesn't work they just slough off the slime coat in the spot that's bothering them and then go on about their business.

Thing is, mine don't do it all the time and yours do... which makes me think that it might be something related to the water changes.

First line of defense is water changes, but maybe there's an irritant that's getting into your aging barrel? Can you try bleaching it well, then rinsing and neutralizing it with some Prime before aging the next batch? Oh and try adding the Prime and buffer to the tank itself before you begin filling it.

Let us know if that clears up the issue and if it remains or gets worse let us know that too.

Meantime, I'll keep scouring the university sites looking for any mention of small slime patches.

Ohhhh, forgot to add that you probably want to up your water changes to 50% per day at the same time, just to see if that makes a difference. Since they're eating well and acting normal, no meds at this point. =)

[discuspaul]

Yes that is exactly what it looks like and how you see it. I really don't know what to do. Is that what you used?
I have seen this on and off for two months, the fish have not gotten bad wounds, and otherwise act normally, so I am not sure I should do anything but more water changes, at least that is the safest first step. I guess I need to get a darn microscope and do a scrapping to figure out exactly what this is. I had hoped someone would be able to say what it was so I knew exactly how to treat it, and was not medicating blindly. Thanks so much you have definitely described it well.

You said this, and I certainly buy into it.
No one here seems to have the faintest idea of what this could be, and I for one have never heard of it before now.

However, given that the fish are acting perfectly normally, look good, seem otherwise quite healthy, and are presumably eating well, why should one be concerned about it, to the point of contemplating some form of treatment out of the blue ?.
Seems to me that the discus should continue to be cared for normally, with lots of large fresh water changes, and leave things be. That's the approach I would take.

[Wanny]

PP GBR, sorry for tude! I tried to respond to you PM don't know if it worked. Strawberry and Paul I agree and will do what you suggest. I hate worrying about or even considering medications, and they would always be my very last resort and the fish would definitely have to be showing more signs of illness. I will absolutely keep you posted. I will do as suggested and get back to you all in a couple of weeks that should give me enough time to see if these water changes and procedures have helped. Thanks so very much to each and every one of you. P.S. Strawberry don't do anymore research I have done it for days and found nothing, no pictures....nothing!

[Wanny]

I tried to video tape the fish but the angle and the light have to be hitting the fish just right to see these patches, they did not show up!

[PP_GBR]

Wanny

Don't waste your time on this. Nothing will capture this except with your own eyes. Surprisingly, salt does wonder for my discus and the money saved one meds went toward a recent purchase of new discus LOL.

[Crunchy]

Wanny

Don't waste your time on this. Nothing will capture this except with your own eyes. Surprisingly, salt does wonder for my discus and the money saved one meds went toward a recent purchase of new discus LOL.

I have had good experience with treating external lesions, fin tear with salt as well. I'm definitely in the miracle salt camp.

[Wanny]

Hey all, have made the suggested changes to my water maintenance. ie, adding more prime, adding prime to tank instead of all of it in water change bucket, increasing my water changes, etc. So far, the fish are still acting normal, even the two that are a breeding pair, continuing to lay eggs, however, I still see some of these patches. I am just going to keep an eye on the fish, and not worry about it too much. I see these patches mostly on the breeding pair and I wonder if the extra slime coat is due to them getting ready for the fry? Anyway, I thank you all for your input, and as long as the fish seem ok, and nothing gets worse I am going to just continue things as normal.

[Wanny]

Update about a week after my last post, spots disappeared and have not come back. I now feel as others suggested this might have been a water issue. With the changes made pursuant to responses from others, cleaning the water change bucket, adding prime and Alkalinity Buffer to tank instead of bucket, etc. As I stated earlier in post my tap water is very high in ammonia and nitrites, and even after aging water and using prime in bucket I could often smell ammonia. It is quite possible the ammonia stuck to the smudge on bucket walls, and just cleaning out the water change bucket helped because I no longer smell the ammonia after aging. Thanks again all for your help.