Darkening Discus

[glus]

hi guys,

I've been trying to correct the following problem. Have 6 discus in a 65G tank. Bare bottom now. PH: 7.8, GH: 16, KH: 8, Ammonia, 0, KO2, 0, KO3 ~20PPM. Two have paired and spawned twice, but I am not ready for little ones yet. Water is aged and is tap using Prime as precaution. Ever since I started aging my water in, I started having problems. 4 out of 6 darkening never bright colors. Especially the blue diamonds. The water parameters are stable. Just treated for worms due to white pool out of the two diamond blues. The 4 that darken keep hiding and do not eat. I've tried several things but I can't get them to be normal. I do about 20% of water change everyd day.

My question is as follows: what could be the reason of of their darkening. They do not show any other symptoms but darkening and hiding. No fin root or anything like that. Why after switching to aged water is the problem; it maybe a coincidence though. I pump the water from my basement up the floor to the tank using a pond pump.

Any suggestions woluld be greately appreciated. I do have an RO unit but I am not using it. I've had these discus for 6 months now. 3 out of the 6 have grown, others seem not growing. Thank you Thank you thank you in advance.

[dirtyplants]

Could be a lot of things!!!
You could go back to doing your water changes the way you did it before and see if they revert back to their old normal self. If they do then check pH in tank for fish and then the holding tank with aged water. Then consider what you have your water in. How long do you age water, do you agitate it? What is the temp both in tank and in holding water tank? QT them if you feel the others may have worms also. Examine stools in QT if normal try new food. Maybe bored:).
As far as some growing and others not, watch who eats the food. My big guys will not let my littler one near the food. So I have to hand feed them.

[strawberryblonde]

As dirtyplants said, it could be a lot of things. Soooo, first things first..more info! =)

1) How old are the discus and what size are they?

2) When did you switch your tank to bare bottom?

3) What type of filters do you use and if they are HOB or Canister, do you use pre-filters on the intakes?

4) What are you feeding them and how often?

5) Have you added any new fish or decor to the tank recently?

[PP_GBR]

What's the BD eye color?

[glus]

As dirtyplants said, it could be a lot of things. Soooo, first things first..more info! =)

1) How old are the discus and what size are they?

2) When did you switch your tank to bare bottom?



3) What type of filters do you use and if they are HOB or Canister, do you use pre-filters on the intakes?



4) What are you feeding them and how often?



5) Have you added any new fish or decor to the tank recently?


****************************************
1) I bough them in April, they were around 3 inch. Now, 2 are around 4'' rest around 3''. I am unsure of their age :(

2) A month ago. It is bare bottom with 3 plants in orange stone pots with substrate. At the beginning they all were SO MUCH happier, 2 weeks later darkening / stress problems. They all are very stressed and scared to death when someone walks by the tank.

3)I uses Canister Eheim 2215, no pre filters.

4) 3-4 times daily. Frozen blood worms, brine shrimp. Additionally, good flakes and slow sinking pellets.

5) Yes, 3 little albino plecos due to algae problems.

Help and thank you.

[glus]

What's the BD eye color?

a little cloudy

[glus]

Could be a lot of things!!!
You could go back to doing your water changes the way you did it before and see if they revert back to their old normal self. If they do then check pH in tank for fish and then the holding tank with aged water. Then consider what you have your water in. How long do you age water, do you agitate it? What is the temp both in tank and in holding water tank? QT them if you feel the others may have worms also. Examine stools in QT if normal try new food. Maybe bored:).
As far as some growing and others not, watch who eats the food. My big guys will not let my littler one near the food. So I have to hand feed them.

PH in tank and in the barrel is the same around 7.8ph, temp is same as I prehit, around 84F, I age for 24 hours, yes, agitate with a power head pump, I hold water in blue recycling type of a barrel from rubbermade. It is not food-grade.

[PP_GBR]

G

Do your BDs have red eyes when they're healthy? What is their eye circles?

[glus]

G

Do your BDs have red eyes when they're healthy? What is their eye circles?

I think the blue diamonds never had red, but black. The healthier pair has red eyes. The others' are black.

[glus]

G

Do your BDs have red eyes when they're healthy? What is their eye circles?

Sorry, now they the BDs have black eye circles. B4, one I think had red, one had black.

[PP_GBR]

Are those with black eyes the same strain? If they are the same, the ones with sad eyes (black) are having some issues. Have you noticed they ever have bright red eyes before?

[PP_GBR]

One more question: what was the med you used for treating worms?

[glus]

Are those with black eyes the same strain? If they are the same, the ones with sad eyes (black) are having some issues. Have you noticed they ever have bright red eyes before?

Same strain. No, they never had bright red eyes. Only the healthy pair seems to have RED nice eyes. Should BDs always have red eyes?

[glus]

One more question: what was the med you used for treating worms?

First prazipro. Now Mardel clout tabs.

[PP_GBR]

Are they under Cloud treatment now as we speak? If your BDs are Stendkers, yes they have red eyes circles. Asian strains, some do and some don't.

[strawberryblonde]

****************************************
1) I bough them in April, they were around 3 inch. Now, 2 are around 4'' rest around 3''. I am unsure of their age :(

2) A month ago. It is bare bottom with 3 plants in orange stone pots with substrate. At the beginning they all were SO MUCH happier, 2 weeks later darkening / stress problems. They all are very stressed and scared to death when someone walks by the tank.

3)I uses Canister Eheim 2215, no pre filters.

4) 3-4 times daily. Frozen blood worms, brine shrimp. Additionally, good flakes and slow sinking pellets.

5) Yes, 3 little albino plecos due to algae problems.

Help and thank you.

Thank you, the answers help a lot! =)

Discus turn dark, hide and get skittish when they aren't feeling well. They can be getting sick for quite awhile before they turn dark, so by that time you notice it, the problems can have been in the tank for months.

The first thing is water quality. Discus need super clean fresh water in order to maintain a strong immune system.

For your canister filter, you need a pre-filter on the intake so that bits of food doesn't end up in the filter media. The first thing to do is to rinse all the media in a bucket of water that you take out of the tank during your daily water change. Rinse well, don't squeeze the media! Continue to clean the media every 3 days until you have a pre-filter on the intake. After that you can just remove the prefilter and rinse it out well under running tap water at each daily water change.

The next thing is to do at least 60% daily water changes until the discus either get better, or get sicker. If they get better, then you'll know that it was water quality that was causing the problem. If they get sicker, then they'll have some symptoms showing up that can be treated.

During each water change, wipe the sides and bottom of the tank. I use a foam scrubbie to clean my tank, but you can use a magnet cleaner made for fish tanks, a sponge or any other fish safe scrub brush. In addition to removing the discus slime and bacteria that builds up on the tank walls, it will also remove any algae.

You said that they had white poo and that you treated for worms. Did you actually see any worms being expelled or lying on the bottom of the tank during treatment? If not, then it wasn't worms. Are the feces still white now? Watch carefully for the following symptoms:

1) Cloudy eyes

2) White stringy or jelly like feces

3) Poor appetite

4) Hiding at the back of the tank

The color of their eyes doesn't matter and I have no idea why anyone is asking you that question.

If algae is a problem in your tank it's a good indicator that there are excess nutrients in the water. That's caused by overfeeding and lack of water changes. For now, put the new pleco's into another tank till you've cleared up the problems with the discus.

When you get a chance, please take pictures of your discus and the tank in general, then post them to help us in seeing any other problems that might be present.

[glus]

Are they under Cloud treatment now as we speak? If your BDs are Stendkers, yes they have red eyes circles. Asian strains, some do and some don't.

Yes, they are. I really don't know what I am doing wrong. 4 out of 6 are very sick. All dark. One appears to have a pop-eye too. Water parameters have not changed. Today I completely removed the 3 plant pots and cleaned the gravel from them in almost boiling water. Scrubbed the entire tank. 4 out of six went through PP bath. Added 6 teaspoons of salt and Mardel Clout again. Please advise. Only the paired 2 are doing relatively ok.

[glus]

Thank you, the answers help a lot! =)

Discus turn dark, hide and get skittish when they aren't feeling well. They can be getting sick for quite awhile before they turn dark, so by that time you notice it, the problems can have been in the tank for months.

The first thing is water quality. Discus need super clean fresh water in order to maintain a strong immune system.

For your canister filter, you need a pre-filter on the intake so that bits of food doesn't end up in the filter media. The first thing to do is to rinse all the media in a bucket of water that you take out of the tank during your daily water change. Rinse well, don't squeeze the media! Continue to clean the media every 3 days until you have a pre-filter on the intake. After that you can just remove the prefilter and rinse it out well under running tap water at each daily water change.

The next thing is to do at least 60% daily water changes until the discus either get better, or get sicker. If they get better, then you'll know that it was water quality that was causing the problem. If they get sicker, then they'll have some symptoms showing up that can be treated.

During each water change, wipe the sides and bottom of the tank. I use a foam scrubbie to clean my tank, but you can use a magnet cleaner made for fish tanks, a sponge or any other fish safe scrub brush. In addition to removing the discus slime and bacteria that builds up on the tank walls, it will also remove any algae.

You said that they had white poo and that you treated for worms. Did you actually see any worms being expelled or lying on the bottom of the tank during treatment? If not, then it wasn't worms. Are the feces still white now? Watch carefully for the following symptoms:

1) Cloudy eyes

2) White stringy or jelly like feces

3) Poor appetite

4) Hiding at the back of the tank

The color of their eyes doesn't matter and I have no idea why anyone is asking you that question.

If algae is a problem in your tank it's a good indicator that there are excess nutrients in the water. That's caused by overfeeding and lack of water changes. For now, put the new pleco's into another tank till you've cleared up the problems with the discus.

When you get a chance, please take pictures of your discus and the tank in general, then post them to help us in seeing any other problems that might be present.

Toni,
Thank you so much. I read this message after doing what you see in my previous post. Yes, I am getting a prefilter and will follow your instructions to see if they help. I'll keep you posted.

Jakub

[strawberryblonde]

Hi Jakub,

Begin doing more water changes immediately. Don't wait for the prefilter. Do 60% water changes every day.

Clean the media in the cannister filter immediately. Don't wait for the prefilter.

Wipe down the sides and bottom of the tank at each water change.

If it was me, I'd stop using the Clout. We don't actually know what is ailing your discus, and meds are very hard on them. There's no need for salt in the tank at this point. Just clean fresh water every day.

If the cloudy eyes don't start clearing, I'd suspect that it's a bacterial infection, but you have to change water every day and observe them before you will know for sure that the cloudy eyes aren't just caused by bad water quality.

Test your water tonight for Nitrites and Nitrates, then post those numbers here. If you can take a couple of pictures of the sick fish and post them it will be very helpful.

[glus]

Toni,
I can't take their pictures as of now; they hide too much. Will attempt later tonight. After water change parameters:

PH: 7.7
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5ppm
Ammonia: 0

Alredy ordered a prefilter and an Eheim vacum pro. I need to get this right sometime soon.

Jakub

Hi Jakub,

Begin doing more water changes immediately. Don't wait for the prefilter. Do 60% water changes every day.

Clean the media in the cannister filter immediately. Don't wait for the prefilter.

Wipe down the sides and bottom of the tank at each water change.

If it was me, I'd stop using the Clout. We don't actually know what is ailing your discus, and meds are very hard on them. There's no need for salt in the tank at this point. Just clean fresh water every day.

If the cloudy eyes don't start clearing, I'd suspect that it's a bacterial infection, but you have to change water every day and observe them before you will know for sure that the cloudy eyes aren't just caused by bad water quality.

Test your water tonight for Nitrites and Nitrates, then post those numbers here. If you can take a couple of pictures of the sick fish and post them it will be very helpful.

[glus]

Toni,
I've done what you had suggested. The pictures attached here are b4 the work done. The residue at the bottom is from the Mardel Cloud; it is no longer there. Please let me know what you think. I've made up a prefilter myself and it is on now. I am to receive a prefilter today and will put it on once arrives. Please let me know what you think of these pictures. Thank you!

Jakub



Toni,
I can't take their pictures as of now; they hide too much. Will attempt later tonight. After water change parameters:

PH: 7.7
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5ppm
Ammonia: 0

Alredy ordered a prefilter and an Eheim vacum pro. I need to get this right sometime soon.

Jakub

[strawberryblonde]

Thanks for the pics! Your water parameters look good, so now it's just a matter of keeping up with the water changes.

Hopefully we can get a couple of the disease experts on here to take a look and let you know if you need to run a course of meds and which meds to use.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Jakub,

I am looking at your pictures which show the water surface in the tank. It appears very still and a bit oily but could be the picture. Do you have an airstone in the tank? I was noticing to two discus hanging near the top of the tank.

Pat

[strawberryblonde]

Hi Pat,

I saw that the surface looked quite still too and meant to mention it, but forgot. Thanks for picking up where I slacked off! =)

It's the two hanging near the top that are the worrisome discus. Those pics are from before Jakub cleaned up the tank and started doing daily water changes, so I'm wondering if that's bacterial and needs to be treated, any thought?

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Toni,

Hard to tell but I would be tempted to place an airstone and break the surface tension. Also might be useful to how the fish are breathing? I am with you on the clean water and getting the meds cleared out. Clout is pretty hard on discus.

Pat

[jimg]

Did you try going back to your original water without the barrels? just a thought but if I remember right blue barrels used to be for chemical and i think it was blue I was told to stay away from. get brute or food grade barrels. I would start with metro (jehmco) 1/4 tsp per 20 1X a day with decent wc for 2 weeks along with kanamycin 1 tsp per 20 for 10 days. get temp around 88 it is possible something in the water stressed and weakened them.
I prefer oxytetracycline but your pushing it with a 7.8 ph so next best is kanamycin. stay away from pp.
the slime on the surface is from a bacterial imbalance. it will go away after the tank ages. for now you should use a powerhead or airstone to break it up.

[glus]

hi guys,
Just to let you know. The water if aged in a blue rubbermaid "recycle" container. That's due to space I have down there. It is being aged with prehiting and a power head. The problems started approximately around time I started aging. And again, I am transfering the water using a pond pump. In the tank, the temp sits at 86F, and yes there is an airstone. The pictures show fish near the surface because they were then there. As of today, after listening to suggestions from Toni, the fish are not doing any better. They look the same as on the pictures. Two of them are passing white poop jelly like every 30-60 minutes. They all are very slim now and looking weak. The poop are not tapeworms. I've seen tons of pics and it does not look like them. More like Hexamita type of feces; and cloudy eyes. I am worried I may loose them... please suggest what meds to use if any at this time. I understand I need to wait for a few days.

[glus]

Hi Jakub,

I am looking at your pictures which show the water surface in the tank. It appears very still and a bit oily but could be the picture. Do you have an airstone in the tank? I was noticing to two discus hanging near the top of the tank.

Pat

hello,
It is clean now. It was due to the meds.

[glus]

Did you try going back to your original water without the barrels? just a thought but if I remember right blue barrels used to be for chemical and i think it was blue I was told to stay away from. get brute or food grade barrels. I would start with metro (jehmco) 1/4 tsp per 20 1X a day with decent wc for 2 weeks along with kanamycin 1 tsp per 20 for 10 days. get temp around 88 it is possible something in the water stressed and weakened them.
I prefer oxytetracycline but your pushing it with a 7.8 ph so next best is kanamycin. stay away from pp.
the slime on the surface is from a bacterial imbalance. it will go away after the tank ages. for now you should use a powerhead or airstone to break it up.

Hello,
No I have not. Partially because it is hard to bring the water in 5-gallon buckets so I am aging and using a pump. I'll look into a food-grade container. Thank you for your time. I appreciate your all help guys. I am learning from the experienced...that counts! Any online good sources for the meds? and also, should I separate the fish? The pair is doing well and appears completely healthy. That's what's puzzles me so much. Thank you.

[strawberryblonde]

Hi Jakub,

Jimg is the disease expert I was hoping would come take a look at this thread and recommend some treatments for the discus. Follow his advice, ok? I'm only good with water stuff, not nearly as sure of myself when it comes to disease unless it's something very obvious. =)

If it was me, I'd leave all the fish in the tank and treat them all, since they've been exposed to the same bacteria, parasites, etc.

[jimg]

Hello,
No I have not. Partially because it is hard to bring the water in 5-gallon buckets so I am aging and using a pump. I'll look into a food-grade container. Thank you for your time. I appreciate your all help guys. I am learning from the experienced...that counts! Any online good sources for the meds? and also, should I separate the fish? The pair is doing well and appears completely healthy. That's what's puzzles me so much. Thank you.

treat them all together. Jehmco has the meds. the ones that are looking skinny I would cull and work on the pair. most times when they show white/ jelly feces it's not often they fully recover, especially skinny ones and they will just be carriers.

[glus]

thank you



Hi Jakub,

Jimg is the disease expert I was hoping would come take a look at this thread and recommend some treatments for the discus. Follow his advice, ok? I'm only good with water stuff, not nearly as sure of myself when it comes to disease unless it's something very obvious. =)

If it was me, I'd leave all the fish in the tank and treat them all, since they've been exposed to the same bacteria, parasites, etc.

[glus]

Jimg,

Thank you. Will order the meds and treat the way you suggested. I saw your pictures...amazing :).

Jakub


treat them all together. Jehmco has the meds. the ones that are looking skinny I would cull and work on the pair. most times when they show white/ jelly feces it's not often they fully recover, especially skinny ones and they will just be carriers.

[glus]

Jimg,
I am getting a new grey brute today. Yes, the one I am using is not a food grade. It maybe leaching something into the water.

Jakub



Did you try going back to your original water without the barrels? just a thought but if I remember right blue barrels used to be for chemical and i think it was blue I was told to stay away from. get brute or food grade barrels. I would start with metro (jehmco) 1/4 tsp per 20 1X a day with decent wc for 2 weeks along with kanamycin 1 tsp per 20 for 10 days. get temp around 88 it is possible something in the water stressed and weakened them.
I prefer oxytetracycline but your pushing it with a 7.8 ph so next best is kanamycin. stay away from pp.
the slime on the surface is from a bacterial imbalance. it will go away after the tank ages. for now you should use a powerhead or airstone to break it up.

[glus]

hi guys,
Just an update. I am using the meds suggested by Jiimg. The fish are doing a little better. The pair has spawned once again. It feels silly that they guarding the eggs for the third time in a month time or so. I don't believe the eggs are fertizlized because of the hard water I have in the tank. I am thinking to separate the pair. What do you think? I do have a RO unit so can make the water softer by mixing to get down to ~5dH. The pair is dominant and the other fish are very much bullied.

[jimg]

Jimg,

Thank you. Will order the meds and treat the way you suggested. I saw your pictures...amazing :).

Jakub

thank you!